Notices
Results 1 to 26 of 26
Like Tree1Likes
  • 1 Post By marnixR

Thread: Upload brain. How far from reality?

  1. #1 Upload brain. How far from reality? 
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    2
    Hi, i just wanted to ask here what do you think (please people that really know of science and brain tissue) about uploading your brain and becoming immortal then by an artificial body.
    Ray Kurzweil and a Russian millionaire are looking forward for this and talk as if it is an upcoming reality. Others say that's impossible.

    Is it really a possibility for technology in some future to achieve this or they are talking nonsense?

    People that really know about this topics, do you think this is possible or he's just talking? I'll appreciate your thoughts about this.

    Thank you! (I apologize for any grammar mistakes, i'm from Argentina, english is not my primary tongue)


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dogbox in front of Dywyddyr's house.
    Posts
    1,786
    I can't imagine rummaging through this existence for countless eons....


    "MODERATOR NOTE : We don't entertain trolls here, not even in the trash can. Banned." -Markus Hanke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    282
    It would take a lot of technological development, at the least. First, you need to know how the brain works. We only have the vaguest clues. Then you'd have to have some way of "scanning" the existing brain in sufficient detail as to preserve all the information content relevant to thought. Since we don't really know how the brain works, it is difficult to say if scanning in that degree of detail is even theoretically possible. Once captured, that information content would have to be duplicated somehow. The electronic digital chips we have now clearly process information in a radically different way than the brain does. Writing your "personality" into a computer memory chip isn't going to do it. We would have to invent whole new technologies to create artificial devices of some sort that can actually emulate the way the brain thinks. And again, we don't know how the brain works, so we can't really even start on that yet. I cannot say "uploading" is either possible or impossible. I can say we are not even remotely close to being able to do it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Sophomore Eleven11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    118
    Many mortals would love that. i don't want to die.
    Even with duplication, transferral of consciousness, if possible, I fear we would lose the "essence' of ourselves. Each duplication being like creating an identical twin with the first twin destroyed and lost.
    I support extreme research in this area and volunteer for test subject.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Cambridgeshire
    Posts
    656
    There are things that neuroscientists and biologists do know about the brain though. One of them is that memory is not stored but occurs in the synapses, in other words you need to actually be having a memory or a thought for it to physically exist and be anything that is downloadable. For me that poses a big problem for Kurzweil unless of course he has a work around or I am completely mistaken and it doesn't matter that memories are not really tangible.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Cardiff, Wales
    Posts
    5,810
    let's hope you won't need Dogbert's tech support when the upload goes wrong

    Ascended likes this.
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Ascended Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    3,450
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    There are things that neuroscientists and biologists do know about the brain though. One of them is that memory is not stored but occurs in the synapses, in other words you need to actually be having a memory or a thought for it to physically exist and be anything that is downloadable. For me that poses a big problem for Kurzweil unless of course he has a work around or I am completely mistaken and it doesn't matter that memories are not really tangible.

    That leads to a rather interesting thought about even if it is possible to seperate the information from the brain, and you seem to be suggesting it isn't, of what actually would you be uploading. Is a person or could a person just be the information or is the person the actual phyicality of the body and brain and the information just an aid to helping the person?, the information being something which could be replaced if lost, or copied even.
    “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.”

    Bertrand Russell
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,676
    Why is everyone forgetting a gradual replacement of the brain by technology...

    Uploading is impossible. But the brain itself can program a system, chips and will use it as best of its ability. This has been tested and confirmed by using brain cells from mice. Those could adapt to work with a computer directly, use software, etc. If we upgrade our brain gradually, and then consciously enter the hardware, the problem is solved..

    The brain can replace broken parts with non broken parts, if enough of the whole is still there. Thus, all you need to do, is connect a complex network of chips with a brain, and disable parts of the brain, using electric stimuli..

    However, i wonder how it would work out for real.. It's surely unethical, for now..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,840
    A couple of points.

    First, Moores Law can be used to predict the capacity of computers in the future. The first computer able to hold the contents of a human brain will be built in 2035, if Moore's Law continues to hold true. That will not, of course, be sufficient, since more capacity than that will be needed, but that is likely within a very short time after 2035 - say by 2040.

    Second. It will not be an upload of the human brain. The most that could be done, even in theory, is to copy the contents of the brain. So we would end up with a computer that appeared to think like the person who is so treated, but it would not be that person. When that person dies, he/she is dead regardless of any "upload".
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,676
    Moore's law will not hold.. (barely a law, more like an educated guess)

    Plus it only takes into consideration if the size of the object stays the same. Simply increase the size, and computers already have the right speed/storage. It just takes multiple ones to do the trick..

    But indeed uploading someone is impossible. Maybe using nanobots, it's possible to create an exact copy, but that's a theory..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    984
    We are a very long way from building a computer that can do what a human brain can do. Once we have that, then we have to solve the upload problem. Directly reading the brain like a data bank is most likely impossible. What could be done would be to ask the person to take a vast battery of tests designed to capture all his preferences. A compuer with that for a data bank could perhaps function the same way the person did making pretty much the same decisions. But the computer still would not have the persons memories and would not be him, just some one withthe same data and values. Very much like another officer trained at the same military school, might make similar decisions under similar circumstanes.
    I would guess we are between 1000 and 3000 yrs from being able to do this. Teaching our brains to read and directly use artificial components we will do much easier. A person with a grafted in transponder being able to directly use remote data bases in his thoughts so as to speak and understand a language he does not know... I guess we will be able to do this in a hundred years.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,840
    To Zwolver
    It is true that Moore's Law is not a true scientific law, but it is a lot more than an educated guess. It is a 50 year trend that still shows no sign of deviating from that trend line. Nor are computers the only technology that follows an exponential trend in development. Numerous other technologies do the same, including genome analysis, robotics, virtual reality etc. The thing that stands out with technologies growing exponentially is that their growth seems very slow for a long time, and then suddenly it is explosive. An illusion, of course, since the exponent does not vary.

    To Sealeaf.

    It is this exponential growth that makes you wrong. When abilities seem to take a long time to develop, but are nevertheless exponential, the final spurt towards full capability will seem incredibly rapid. If we ever develop the ability to copy a human brain onto a computer, it will not take 1,000 years plus.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Flatland
    Posts
    5,438
    It better come soon. Trust me, when the zombie apocalypse hits, you're going to be glad to have me on your phone instead of Siri.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,676
    No zombie apocalypse will ever come. However a nice plague once in a while can, shall, and has to occur every 40 years. Or else our species weakens. However we are due about 10 years..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Genius Duck Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    12,029
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    However a nice plague once in a while can, shall, and has to occur every 40 years.
    What?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Genius Duck Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    12,029
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    But indeed uploading someone is impossible.
    If you append the word "currently" then I agree.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,840
    Damaging plagues are becoming less and less likely as medical science improves. Nor are they needed to 'improve' humanity. We will do that for ourselves in the near future as genetic science improves. There is no reason in theory why 'superior' genes cannot be collected and implanted in human zygotes to create babies that will grow into superior adults. More resistant to disease. Smarter. Better looking. More athletic. etc.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,676
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    But indeed uploading someone is impossible.
    If you append the word "currently" then I agree.
    I don't mean, currently.. I mean in total.. Not that i can't comprehend it, so it can't be true, but also that it will always be a digital copy, not actually the living thing. As far as technology goes, we can't create the same consciousness, that already exists, while the actual consciousness will cease to exist, while still retaining yourself.

    It's as impossible as transporter technology on star trek. It will not be able to transfer living matter, ever, and come out as the same person on the other end. Really... ever.

    Copying is possible.. but is it you? I doubt it..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Genius Duck Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    12,029
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    I don't mean, currently.. I mean in total..Not that i can't comprehend it, so it can't be true, but also that it will always be a digital copy, not actually the living thing. As far as technology goes, we can't create the same consciousness, that already exists, while the actual consciousness will cease to exist, while still retaining yourself.

    It's as impossible as transporter technology on star trek. It will not be able to transfer living matter, ever, and come out as the same person on the other end. Really... ever.

    Copying is possible.. but is it you? I doubt it..
    My apologies. I hadn't realised that you were totally knowledgeable of the future and what breakthroughs we'll make (or not make) in science.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,840
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    My apologies. I hadn't realised that you were totally knowledgeable of the future and what breakthroughs we'll make (or not make) in science.
    I agree with Zwolver. Certainly it is possible in future that the contents of a human brain might be copied onto a computer. However, a copy is not the original. It is like having identical twins and saying we can kill one off, because we will still have the copy. If you do that, a human will die. If a person's brain is copied onto a computer, and that person then dies, then that person is dead. The electronic copy does not stop that person being dead.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Genius Duck Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    12,029
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    I agree with Zwolver. Certainly it is possible in future that the contents of a human brain might be copied onto a computer. However, a copy is not the original. It is like having identical twins and saying we can kill one off, because we will still have the copy. If you do that, a human will die.
    We don't copy the brain - that's the physical substrate.
    The "personality", the "mind", is a pattern.
    If you "copy" a pattern you don't destroy the old one, nor is there any way of distinguishing the "orginal" from the "copy".
    Is there any way to tell a copy of some software from the orginal? (Other than, of course, the medium involved in its storage).

    If a person's brain is copied onto a computer, and that person then dies, then that person is dead. The electronic copy does not stop that person being dead.
    You'll have to define "person" before you can support that.
    E.g. if a person loses a limb does that mean they're somehow less than they were before?
    How about two limbs?
    Three?
    Now extend that - is a person their body or their mind, thoughts, ... personality?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,676
    Comparing the body with consciousness is weird. The mind is not like a set of parts. Its an active loop, that, if interrupted, is gone forever. The loop is us. And a running current can not be copied.

    Look at it as light.. Turn it on at the source, and it will head to the target, but it won't be everywhere instantly, it takes time. Because it takes time, and always will take time, it's impossible to create the same being you just destroyed, or scanned.

    An inactive brain can't be programmed to have this loop.. It just can't.. It's like saying you found a way to create infinite energy.. Found your future self.. Or tossed 7 on a 6 sided dice..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Genius Duck Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    12,029
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    Comparing the body with consciousness is weird.
    I didn't.

    And a running current can not be copied.
    At the present time.

    Look at it as light.. Turn it on at the source, and it will head to the target, but it won't be everywhere instantly, it takes time. Because it takes time, and always will take time
    Um, how long will the "copying" take? Will a microsecond make any difference to the transferred mind? Will a second? Two?

    it's impossible to create the same being you just destroyed, or scanned.
    According to you.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,676
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    Comparing the body with consciousness is weird.
    I didn't.

    And a running current can not be copied.
    At the present time.

    Look at it as light.. Turn it on at the source, and it will head to the target, but it won't be everywhere instantly, it takes time. Because it takes time, and always will take time
    Um, how long will the "copying" take? Will a microsecond make any difference to the transferred mind? Will a second? Two?

    it's impossible to create the same being you just destroyed, or scanned.
    According to you.
    1. You compared limbs to the human mind.

    2. Indeed, at present time. But with my superior future sight, i know it never will be invented.

    3. A millionth square of a picosecond will be disastrous. Only zero would do the trick.

    4. Laws of Physics, read into it. Measuring changes elemental states. It's eiter knowing what it was, or guessing what it could be.
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Genius Duck Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    12,029
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    1. You compared limbs to the human mind.
    Please read my post again.
    I was pointing out that the person is NOT the body.

    2. Indeed, at present time. But with my superior future sight, i know it never will be invented.
    Quite.
    What are next week's lottery numbers?

    3. A millionth square of a picosecond will be disastrous. Only zero would do the trick.
    And you can show this is true because...?

    4. Laws of Physics, read into it. Measuring changes elemental states. It's eiter knowing what it was, or guessing what it could be.
    Ah right. Because copying a programme (or any pattern) changes its state.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,676
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    What are next week's lottery numbers?
    2 - 7 - 11 - 21 - 22 - 34 - 43

    Somewhere, in the world..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
    Reply With Quote  
     

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 14
    Last Post: July 28th, 2021, 07:23 PM
  2. Could reality actually be a virtual reality machine?
    By quantumintel in forum Personal Theories & Alternative Ideas
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: April 20th, 2009, 06:03 PM
  3. please help i have brain hambridge / blood spot in brain
    By rizwanali in forum Health & Medicine
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: November 12th, 2008, 10:25 AM
  4. Brain: Constructs rather than mirrors reality
    By coberst in forum Philosophy
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: April 30th, 2008, 04:41 PM
  5. Replies: 4
    Last Post: June 28th, 2007, 09:31 AM
Tags for this Thread

View Tag Cloud

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •