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Thread: Why evolution take place in a way from simplex to complex not from complex to simplex ?

  1. #1 Why evolution take place in a way from simplex to complex not from complex to simplex ? 
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    Evolution takes place in a way from simplex to complex not from complex to simplex.

    It is natural phenomena & what are reasons this type of behavior.


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    If you keep adding material to something, it will always grow more complex.


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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    It is not always true, either. Isn't the loss of visual organs, for example, a progression from complex to simpler?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    It is not always true, either. Isn't the loss of visual organs, for example, a progression from complex to simpler?
    And there are also neutral changes in complexity caused by evolution.
    i.e.
    Is a Spaniel more or less complex than a wolf? ...or about the same?


    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    If you keep adding material to something, it will always grow more complex.
    And if you keep adding and removing material to something, its complexity will fluctuate.

    To quote the T's & C's of Barclay's Bank: "The value of an investment can go down as well as up."
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    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    depends on what you understand as complexity

    have a look at the following article :

    Metazoan complexity and evolution: is there a trend?

    and tell me which type of complexity you mean

    also, prior to metazoans, you could say that there was an increase in complexity from prokaryotic to eukaryotic to metazoans, but what after that ?
    + it's only an increase in complexity from one particular point of view - what if you took as the measure for complexity the ability to metabolise different types of chemicals ? in that case prokaryotes are at the top, and we metazoans are a mere shadow of that
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    Would it be correct saying that a redundant attribute for a species passing through each generation will descend towards the simplex at a rate much slower to the advantageous attribute that ascends towards the complex?

    In other words, if a species doesn’t need its eyes anymore because of a change of environment, then the eye attribute will still pass on through each generation, but because there’s no longer a driving force of natural selection to enhance the eyes (towards the complex), it’ll just randomly mutate either direction, and eventually lose its functionally as an eye. An evolutionary case of “Use it or lose it”.
    Last edited by pineapples; March 5th, 2013 at 09:46 AM. Reason: spelling
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  8. #7  
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    Its not right to say evolution is not taking place now as natural selection ended.
    Now evolution is more concentrated to mental availabilities.

    Possibly material also may be converted into more complex from simplex atoms.
    Possibly in early Oxygen, Hydrogen,Carbon etc atoms may also evoluted from a common matter.
    Evolution also responsible for variation although now it is decreasing on earth.
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    oh, you're talking about the old pyramid of life, with humans at its apex ?

    sorry to disappoint you there, that's not how biologists understand complexity - the brain is but one organ that just happens to be extremely well developed in humans, just like trunks are in elephants
    that's not necessarily complexity you're talking about, but specialisation

    and as far as natural selection is concerned, it hasn't stopped, not even for human beings
    at times, it may go slow, but it's at its most effective when populations are under pressure
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  10. #9  
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    There's only something like 6000 mammals as compared to another couple million identified eukaryote and estimates of something like 10 million total and an unknown number of prokaryotes & Archaea. It seems the move towards complexity is actually an extremely tiny fraction of evolution.
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    Animal gene is more complex than tiny organism's gene I guess.
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    We higher life forms are all colonies of lower life forms using us to provide them with sustenance, breeding, materials and survival.

    The more colonized, the more complex and the longer DNA is in existence, the longer the chain and greater complexity.

    A gecko today may be a simple machine or colony, but it is still more complex than a gecko from 10,000 years ago.

    A blind salamander in a cave that lost its eyes is more complex than its ancestor that first was trapped in that cave and had eyes. The eyes were not deleted from the genome, the genome was altered to include additional data to override the eye gene. Saying it "lost" its eyes is a bit misleading.
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    if our DNA is so highly developed, why do we have so much more junk DNA than prokaryotes ?
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    Define, "junk."
    Define, "developed."

    If a chain of DNA is added onto, which causes some segments to be retained but lose active purpose- is it more complex than the original chain of DNA molecules?
    Is it necessarily more developed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Evolution takes place in a way from simplex to complex not from complex to simplex.

    It is natural phenomena & what are reasons this type of behavior.
    As an alternative to the conventional explanations presented thus far we can contemplate the following.

    Complex physical structures (stars, gas clouds, galaxies) emerge from a handful of fundamental particle types, universal constants and four forces.

    Over time these grow in complexity. For example, planetary systems emerge.

    Then, unanticipated, life appears and becomes progressively more diverse.

    At least one branch of this life develops the capacity to discover and contemplate the foregoing.

    There is no particular reason to believe this would be the last stage in a process that generates novel emergent properties.

    If one refuses to be hidebound by tradition it almost smacks of teleology.
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    Yes possibly matter in space may be emerged from a simpler and common form
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Yes possibly matter in space may be emerged from a simpler and common form
    This is not a possibility, it as near to a certainty as we can get. My point is that this suggests an aim, an end goal of those developments, and that is a teleological explanation. Such explanations have been rejected by science for a considerable time. I have reservations as to whether or not such rejection is valid. If we exclude consideration of the possibility, we have no means of reassessing the possibility, in the light of new knowledge.
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  18. #17  
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    Organisms can evolve to become simpler, a good example are parasites.
    T
    hese organisms often dispense with traits that are made unnecessary through parasitism on a host.
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    More effective things are usually more complex, so life usually evolves to be more complex. However, more complex things usually have more vulnerabilities, so bacteria are the most successful species. For example, a calculator breaks more easily than paper & pencil. A human is easier to kill than a mouse (because a mouse caan hide). Being more complex creates some vulnerabilities. It might be better for a species to evolve at a certain time, and then a natural disaster or new predator destroys the species because of its additional complexity.
    "It is the ability to make predictions about the future that is the crux of intelligence."
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    For example, you can predict that 3+5=8. You can predict what sequence of muscle commands you should generate during a conversation, or whether an object is a desk or a chair. The brain is very complicated, but that is essentially how intelligence works. Instinct, emotions, and behavior are somewhat seperate.
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    Have you ever constructed a single lego block from a lego block castle?
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Have you ever constructed a single lego block from a lego block castle?
    Do photo mosaics count?


    (Warning: the link below is to a 4MB image.)
    http://letsmakerobots.com/files/user...saic100pct.jpg
    SayBigWords.com/say/3FC

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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Have you ever constructed a single lego block from a lego block castle?
    Pretty quick/easy, which makes organisms more likely to become simpler than they would otherwise.
    "It is the ability to make predictions about the future that is the crux of intelligence."
    -Jeff Hawkins.
    For example, you can predict that 3+5=8. You can predict what sequence of muscle commands you should generate during a conversation, or whether an object is a desk or a chair. The brain is very complicated, but that is essentially how intelligence works. Instinct, emotions, and behavior are somewhat seperate.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Evolution takes place in a way from simplex to complex not from complex to simplex.

    It is natural phenomena & what are reasons this type of behavior.
    No, evolution also goes from complex to simple, like loss of wings , eyes and such . If the species stop using some traits that were once beneficial, natural selection will discard it.
    "There is grandeur in this view of life,from so simple beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.”
    Charles Darwin
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  24. #23  
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    The loss of functional eyes in blind cave fish is actually quite interesting. The intuitive conclusion would be that deleterious mutations in genes involved in eye development are tolerated since loss of eyes is no big deal to an organism living in a dark cave. Reality is a little more surprising however.


    These fish appear to have undergone a lot of positive selection for genes that are involved in head and jaw development (the fish have different feeding strategies from their sighted counterparts). The altered patterns of gene expression during embryogenesis radically alter the morphology of the head and jaw and in doing so interfere with normal eye development, eventually leading to degeneration of the embryonic eyes.


    Molecular studies. as well as breeding experiments between the blind and sighted fish, demonstrate that the blind fish still have fully functional genes for eye development.


    Does loss of eyes count as an example of decreased complexity? Or does increased touch sensitivity of the jaw and upregulation of many genes count as an example of increased complexity?
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  25. #24  
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    Well animals that live in caves usually develop some other type of navigation, some cave dwelling birds have developed echo location to navigate in pitch dark, so i guess we cant see that that is the loss of complexity ( the birds also have functioning eyes ).But the loss ( or shrinking ) of wings in birds can not be the increase in complexity , can it ?
    "There is grandeur in this view of life,from so simple beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.”
    Charles Darwin
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    From time to time, a mutation gives a certain "superiority" to that certain gene. As always, the human kind is evolving in its behavior and way of thinking.
    Consequently, our bodies "must "adjust themselves to the new environment that, ironically, we are building with our own hands. This gene (or mutation) goes through natural selection
    and once it "passes" it and helps our bodies adjust to the new conditions. It is very simple. As long as we keep evolving and making things harder for our self, we will have to become more sophisticated to survive.
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeLady View Post
    As long as we keep evolving and making things harder for our self, we will have to become more sophisticated to survive.
    Actually this is not true, as i pointed out things dont always become more complex as species evolve.
    "There is grandeur in this view of life,from so simple beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.”
    Charles Darwin
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    Actually this is not true, as i pointed out things dont always become more complex as species evolve.
    Animal simple shape doesn't mean its blood, or its brain, or its gene are simple. For example: look at human... we have no tail but we HAVE a tail (this tail appear in embryo). Our gene remember the ability to make tail but some complex code in our gene cause it to grow into different shape that has specific purpose (all animal has similar looking embryo. Human, dolphin, cat, all similar).
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