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Thread: The Origin of Modern Humanity

  1. #1 The Origin of Modern Humanity 
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    The origin of modern humanity is thought as originated in mid-east of Africa.

    For the various landforms advantage of Africa, the environment is more likely to be suitable for the begining of creatures and Intelligent life.

    Is that so or are there any other possibilities?


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    It needs strong will to be in Africa, due to break physical obstacle.


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    Quote Originally Posted by overthelight View Post
    It needs strong will to be in Africa, due to break physical obstacle.
    I think he means to say, that in hardship, people will need to show intelligence to get by, and thus the modern humanity originated.

    I think Afrika is were it originated because our ancestors lived there, and as treedwellers we were forces to become savannah dwellers (from climbers to walkers). Fire is the pinnacle of human control and evolution, ever steps higher on my scale of humanity as the control of fire. And in afrika, it'll be a lot easier to create a fire. Much more then in, say Antartica.
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    I have only heard that eastern africa is where humans originate. that is where the oldest fossils are found and it makes sense because primates come from africa
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    The earliest fossil identifiable as Homo sapiens came from southern Africa, dated to 200,000 years ago, approximately.

    That does not necessarily mean much, since such fossils are very rare, and it could be pure chance that these ones were from southern Africa. Prehuman fossils have been found in a number of sites.
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    Quote Originally Posted by siriusnova View Post
    The origin of modern humanity is thought as originated in mid-east of Africa.

    For the various landforms advantage of Africa, the environment is more likely to be suitable for the begining of creatures and Intelligent life.

    Is that so or are there any other possibilities?
    There are many possibilities and environments change and have changed over the years.

    Concerning the origins of modern humans I believe DNA/genetic investigation/research will eventually sort it out..
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    it was not till recently that I found out that neanderthals, tecnically not humans, lived in many parts of the world before being wiped out by modern man
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    Quote Originally Posted by merrychristmas View Post
    it was not till recently that I found out that neanderthals, tecnically not humans, lived in many parts of the world before being wiped out by modern man
    "being wiped out by modern man"
    is pure speculation
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post

    "being wiped out by modern man"
    is pure speculation
    A little more than speculation. When Homo sapiens moved into neanderthal territory, where they had been living for hundreds of thousands of years, it took a very short time before neanderthal was extinct. It may have been competition, introduced diseases, or outright war, but it is pretty sure that modern man one way or another wiped out the neanderthals.
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    and here, I thought
    "wiped out" bespoke intent.

    neanderthalensis never recovered from the near extinction event which we also survived,
    it seems that their range was much more limited, and the survivors were less gracile

    then---as the ice receeded a bit and we and they emerged from our sheltered pockets,
    If a disease for which they had no immunity cropped up, we may not have been the carriers

    cause and/or causality has never been clearly indicated
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    Yes, sculptor, the true cause is not known.
    But the highest probability is that our ancestors were strongly involved in whatever it was that killed the neanderthals.
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  13. #12  
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    OK
    "cause is not known"
    we agree
    then
    we're back to :
    "being wiped out by modern man"
    is pure speculation
    i'll change that to likely speculation

    but some speculation is part of how the science progresses
    as long as we know it as such
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by siriusnova View Post
    are there any other possibilities?
    Neanderthals probably could mate with modern humans, and possibly did. This is a touchy subject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by siriusnova View Post
    are there any other possibilities?
    Neanderthals probably could mate with modern humans, and possibly did. This is a touchy subject.
    Isn't it believed to be the case for Austra, Habilis, Ergaster, and all the like? I've always been under the impression that there was a lot of cross-breeding going on. Surely Neanderthals would've been involved, even if it was only up north.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post

    "being wiped out by modern man"
    is pure speculation
    A little more than speculation. When Homo sapiens moved into neanderthal territory, where they had been living for hundreds of thousands of years, it took a very short time before neanderthal was extinct. It may have been competition, introduced diseases, or outright war, but it is pretty sure that modern man one way or another wiped out the neanderthals.
    Homo sapiens are the product of multiple hominids from multiple populations and regions. Homo sapiens are a little neandertal, a little denisovan, a little this and a little that, etc.. That is what we are, and it is the hybrid hominids, us, that lived and live on.

    The fact that multiple hominids and hominid hybrids lived next to and with each other for thousand and thousand of years, combined with the little dna evidence we do have, proves, without a doubt, that gradual replacement or alteration from established hominids to hybrid hominids took place, and this occurred not through constant hatred and pure brutality but, rather by way of peace most of the time. This occurred harmoniously, if you will, for the most part.

    Our ancestor hominids, all of them, made decisions to cross and breed with each other, which created us, and it is far more likely that the same positive reasons that came from all the crossing is the same reasons that led our ancestor hominids to keep those positive reasons alive and well, and to do so even at and to the determent of a few anatomical features.

    To claim that modern humans wiped out neandertals is kin to claiming something like modern Mexicans wiped out Spaniards and Aztec Indians.
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    gonzales

    Nevertheless, it is probably true.

    Neanderthal ancestors left Africa about 400,000 years ago, and lived in Europe with considerable success. Our ancestors left Africa about 70,000 years ago and arrived in Europe about 25,000 years later. Within a few thousand years, there were no neanderthals left.

    You may call it coincidence, and I might claim the Easter Bunny is alive and well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    Surely Neanderthals would've been involved, even if it was only up north.
    True. Those Newcastle lads will sleep with anything when they've had a few.

    More seriously, this is a highly dynamic field, where hypotheses are being raised on ephermeral foundations. Each new discovery offers clarification and a reshaping of those hypotheses. Exciting, but frustrating for those with an amateur interest who are trying to keep up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    gonzales

    Nevertheless, it is probably true.

    Neanderthal ancestors left Africa about 400,000 years ago, and lived in Europe with considerable success. Our ancestors left Africa about 70,000 years ago and arrived in Europe about 25,000 years later. Within a few thousand years, there were no neanderthals left.

    You may call it coincidence, and I might claim the Easter Bunny is alive and well.
    The ancestors of neandertals had been in europe at least well over a million years ago, they did not come from or leave from africa 400,000 years ago.

    Our ancestors also did not leave africa 70,000 years ago.... Maybe a mixed-hominid that lived in africa came into eurasia 70,000 but, then again, maybe one did not. Either way, we know that modern human ancestors were all over eurasia and africa before 70,000 years ago.

    Modern humans in eurasia
    "The discovery of early modern human fossil remains in the Zhirendong (Zhiren Cave) in south China that are at least 100,000 years old provides the earliest evidence for the emergence of modern humans in eastern Asia, at least 60,000 years older than the previously known modern humans in the region."

    The problem, where you guys are going wrong, is with the idea or belief that modern humans/homo sapiens are a pure bred hominid unique to our own individual line, and that is just not the case inside or outside of africa or eurasia. We do not come from one hominid. We are the product of multiple hominids and hominid crosses. Our different ancestor hominid and hominid populations are from many different regions from africa and eurasia, and homo sapiens, modern humans, did not exist in our current forms until after these multiple and many crosses occurred, not before.

    Now you guys are more than welcome to try and find one hominid, one population and make all the claims you wish about how they are your adam and eve but, you will be wrong doing so.
    Last edited by gonzales56; October 5th, 2012 at 02:50 AM.
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  20. #19  
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    gonzales, i would appreciate it if you would stop expressing your interpretation of the evidence as if it were fact, or even just the current consensus. You may be correct, but stating things, as you do, with certainty is doing a disservice to those who know little of human pre-history. Please preface such remarks with words such as "In my opinion", "It seems to me likely that", "While this is contrary to current views I believe that".
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    gonzales, i would appreciate it if you would stop expressing your interpretation of the evidence as if it were fact, or even just the current consensus. You may be correct, but stating things, as you do, with certainty is doing a disservice to those who know little of human pre-history. Please preface such remarks with words such as "In my opinion", "It seems to me likely that", "While this is contrary to current views I believe that".
    John, with all due respect all I am doing is making statements based on evidence/studies. I would also like to believe I am providing folks who would or will read this thread with a bit of real information, data and understanding.


    It was claimed, as a fact, that our ancestors left africa 70,000 years ago. In far more ways than one, this statement is not accurate. Forget the fact that many older ancestor hominids have been found in eurasia that date well beyond 70,000 years ago, and possibly even millions of years, I posted just one 100,000 year old "modern human" in eurasia to counter the claim.

    Modern Human Fossil 100,000 years old in Eurasia
    The 2007 discovery of fragmentary human remains (two molars and an anterior mandible) at Zhirendong (Zhiren Cave) in South China provides insight in the processes involved in the establishment of modern humans in eastern Eurasia. The human remains are securely dated by U-series on overlying flowstones and a rich associated faunal sample to the initial Late Pleistocene, >100 kya. As such, they are the oldest modern human fossils in East Asia and predate by >60,000 y the oldest previously known modern human remains in the region.

    Here is another good read..
    We think there were probably thousands of interbreeding events," Hammer said. "It happened relatively extensively and regularly."
    "Anatomically modern humans were not so unique that they remained separate," he added. "They have always exchanged genes with their more morphologically diverged neighbors. This is quite common in nature, and it turns out we're not so unusual after all."

    I can post more articles and papers if it is required of me.
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  22. #21  
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    Your reply merits proper consideration before replying. In the meantim I just ask that whenever you are making a statement that departs from mainstream thinking that you make it clear that dpeparture exists, no matter how compelling you feel the evidence is for it.
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  23. #22  
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    toba--bottleneck--pocket refuges
    all still viable hypothesis?

    I do not like the ill defined phrase "early modern humans"
    Last edited by sculptor; October 5th, 2012 at 03:43 PM.
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    The predecessor to both Homo sapiens and neanderthal man lived right across Europe, Asia and Africa a million years ago. That is : Homo erectus.

    Neanderthals are genetically very similar to humans, as shown by DNA analysis from neanderthal fossils. So much so that many authorities believe they are a human subspecies. ie. Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.

    This means there is a common ancestor to both. The common ancestor would be African, since humans arose in Africa, and the radiation of both subspecies would be 'out of Africa'.

    The exact dates are a matter of debate. I have seen suggestions that neanderthals left Africa anything from 300,000 years ago to 600,000 years ago, and humans anything from 100,000 to 45,000 years ago. The paper gonzales references of remains in China is interesting, but not terribly convincing, since it is about three tooth fragments. Since there are known to be four 'close to human' species in areas other than Africa over the past 100,000 years, the tooth fragments could have come from any of them - Homo sapiens, neanderthals, denisovans, or Homo floresiensis. It is even possible that Homo erectus might still have had a surviving population.

    Much remains to be discovered, but it is now quite widely accepted that human dispersal was all out of Africa, less than 100,000 years ago, and all humans came from the one root stock - that is : African Homo sapiens.


    This is no proof, of course, and there may still be surprises to be discovered, but it seem probable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    The predecessor to both Homo sapiens and neanderthal man lived right across Europe, Asia and Africa a million years ago. That is : Homo erectus.

    Neanderthals are genetically very similar to humans, as shown by DNA analysis from neanderthal fossils. So much so that many authorities believe they are a human subspecies. ie. Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.

    This means there is a common ancestor to both. The common ancestor would be African, since humans arose in Africa, and the radiation of both subspecies would be 'out of Africa'.

    The exact dates are a matter of debate. I have seen suggestions that neanderthals left Africa anything from 300,000 years ago to 600,000 years ago, and humans anything from 100,000 to 45,000 years ago. The paper gonzales references of remains in China is interesting, but not terribly convincing, since it is about three tooth fragments. Since there are known to be four 'close to human' species in areas other than Africa over the past 100,000 years, the tooth fragments could have come from any of them - Homo sapiens, neanderthals, denisovans, or Homo floresiensis. It is even possible that Homo erectus might still have had a surviving population.

    Much remains to be discovered, but it is now quite widely accepted that human dispersal was all out of Africa, less than 100,000 years ago, and all humans came from the one root stock - that is : African Homo sapiens.


    This is no proof, of course, and there may still be surprises to be discovered, but it seem probable.
    Homo Erectus could very well be one of our ancestors, they could be an ancestor to only a portion of modern humans or they could not be an ancestor to any of Us. The same applies to homo heidelbergensis and homo antecessor.

    The problem with the claim that "modern humans" evolved in africa is that the DNA evidence combined with the fossil record does not support it anymore. What we know now is that modern humans, neandertals and denisovans all had a relatively recent common ancestor and an even more recent common population. The fossil record, combined with the dna results, actually points more towards an ancestral population for all of us centered in and around Eurasia rather than Africa.

    I also do not care what people believe due to news headlines. Modern humans do not and did not come from one root stock.. Our genetic material is derived from hominids of all sorts, and so much so that the average time to common ancestors between eurasians and sub-Saharan africans is between 600,000 and 800,000 years ago due to the fact that so many different hominids contributed to us, modern humans.

    The fossil record in Eurasia for the evolution and emergence of hominids and the ancestors of hominids is also starting to point towards Eurasia as the possible birth place of hominids.
    Last edited by gonzales56; October 10th, 2012 at 12:36 PM.
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    gonzales

    The fossil record belies your points.

    Homo sapiens fossils exist back to 200,000 years ago, in Africa and nowhere else. No Homo sapiens fossil has ever been found outside of Africa older than 100,000 years old. The several roughly 100,000 year old human fossils outside Africa were not far from Africa (for example : one fossil in Israel) and they may be an early out of Africa offshoot that did not succeed.

    However, other hominin fossils have been found outside Africa that are older. Lack of older human fossils outside Africa is very strong evidence that humanity evolved in Africa and spread from there somewhat later. The 'somewhat later' is somewhere between 100,000 years ago and 45,000 years ago depending on which authority you quote. Abundant human remains outside Africa seem to be 70,000 years old or less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    gonzales

    The fossil record belies your points.

    Homo sapiens fossils exist back to 200,000 years ago, in Africa and nowhere else. No Homo sapiens fossil has ever been found outside of Africa older than 100,000 years old. The several roughly 100,000 year old human fossils outside Africa were not far from Africa (for example : one fossil in Israel) and they may be an early out of Africa offshoot that did not succeed.

    However, other hominin fossils have been found outside Africa that are older. Lack of older human fossils outside Africa is very strong evidence that humanity evolved in Africa and spread from there somewhat later. The 'somewhat later' is somewhere between 100,000 years ago and 45,000 years ago depending on which authority you quote. Abundant human remains outside Africa seem to be 70,000 years old or less.
    You are talking about the omo 1 and omo 2 fossil pieces, which by the way, are a hominid, an archaic one and there is nothing in the way of teeth, face, jaw, nose etc... just a few skull cap pieces. There is absolutely no way of telling for sure what kind of hominid they are/were. In fact the few omo 1 and omo 2 pieces don't even resemble each other.

    Lets move onto the next so called "homo sapiens" from africa.

    160,000 year old herto fossils found in africa.



    If these fossils where found in Eurasia they would be classified as diseased homo erectus' who are even further from modern humans than neandertals.

    There are human fossils in Eurasia that are much older than both these fossils from africa.
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    gonzales

    I doubt that either of us are qualified to call those fossils "diseased Homo erectus." The experts who analysed the fossils identified them as Homo sapiens, and I am not prepared to argue that.

    The 200,000 year old fossils were also regarded as Homo sapiens, though there was some debate about whether they might be a different sub species.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    gonzales

    I doubt that either of us are qualified to call those fossils "diseased Homo erectus." The experts who analysed the fossils identified them as Homo sapiens, and I am not prepared to argue that.

    The 200,000 year old fossils were also regarded as Homo sapiens, though there was some debate about whether they might be a different sub species.
    I was being sarcastic, but clearly they are not modern humans and simply having some features, like a large brain (which is and was the major "evidence" presented as proof they are homo sapiens) , does not make them homo sapiens either. They could very well be some of our ancestors or all of our ancestors though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by overthelight View Post
    It needs strong will to be in Africa, due to break physical obstacle.
    I think he means to say, that in hardship, people will need to show intelligence to get by, and thus the modern humanity originated.

    I think Afrika is were it originated because our ancestors lived there, and as treedwellers we were forces to become savannah dwellers (from climbers to walkers). Fire is the pinnacle of human control and evolution, ever steps higher on my scale of humanity as the control of fire. And in afrika, it'll be a lot easier to create a fire. Much more then in, say Antartica.
    what you're thinking is good... I mean it's persuasive !!
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