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Thread: What is happening when we see images and hear sounds etc. without the aid of our sense organs?

  1. #1 What is happening when we see images and hear sounds etc. without the aid of our sense organs? 
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    In our dreams aswell as in our conscious state we can see images, hear sounds etc without any apparent stimulation of our sense organs.

    What is going on in the body/brain to produce these 'sensations' in our mind?

    Anything you know about this subject please share.

    I posted in the biology forum becuase im primarily interested what we know about what's going on in the body. We might need to venture into a multitude of disciplines before we get anywhere near an understanding of this question.



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    The brain does all the work of seeing and hearing. It just uses inputs from sense organs for real life stuff. No sensory inputs required for dreams, imagination or hallucinations.

    If you read Norman Doidge's "The Brain That Changes Itself" you'll find some fan.tas.tic stuff on brain plasticity where people who've lost their sight are learning to use other parts of the body as a substitute sense organ for sight. Not read-a-book quality sight, but get around without a dog or a stick quality sight.


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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    In our dreams aswell as in our conscious state we can see images, hear sounds etc without any apparent stimulation of our sense organs.

    What is going on in the body/brain to produce these 'sensations' in our mind?

    Anything you know about this subject please share.

    I posted in the biology forum becuase im primarily interested what we know about what's going on in the body. We might need to venture into a multitude of disciplines before we get anywhere near an understanding of this question.

    The primary question for me before I go to dreams is what are we looking at when we simply close our eyes. This is very interesting because when we compare the light we see outside of ourselves to the dark inside of ourselve there appears a change of images from solid to what I am calling cosmic images. my thought wave can conjure up anyimage in the minds eye but the images appear where there is supposed to be no light from the outside world.

    How can I see those images in my eye when I shut out all external light forces, are we really seeing these images or are we creating something from a memory bank that has nothing to do with seeing. Is the darknees we see when we close our eyes really dark energy or the absence of light. Can it be said we see darkness or is it we see only light? What really goes on in the body dark side and the outer bright side?
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    The brain does all the work of seeing and hearing. It just uses inputs from sense organs for real life stuff. No sensory inputs required for dreams, imagination or hallucinations.

    If you read Norman Doidge's "The Brain That Changes Itself" you'll find some fan.tas.tic stuff on brain plasticity where people who've lost their sight are learning to use other parts of the body as a substitute sense organ for sight. Not read-a-book quality sight, but get around without a dog or a stick quality sight.
    The fact is when I see things through my eyes I get a visual confirmation, when I close my eyes I get a feeling confirmation. However when I close my eyes I am still seeing or can I say that? If I see a table in my minds eye it looks like a table but it is not althought I can identify dimensions, I know the image is coming from somewhere, the thing is the images change if my eyes are open or closed, there must be some place in the brain that accounts for this phenomenon.


    Will read the brain that changes itself.
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    You may want to read Antonio Damasio Descartes’ error.
    Memory / recall of ‘images’ is reconstructive not facsimilie.
    Dispositional representations (DRs) firing back synchronously to early sensory cortices generate momentarily the approximate representation of the image. DRs exist in potential state, subject to activation.
    Microstructural changes (see LTP, long-term potentiation) in neuron circuits (e.g. at tripartite synapses in the hippocampus) become neurally coded representations
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    How can I see those images in my eye when I shut out all external light forces
    You are not seeing them in your eye - as adelady says, you never see anything in your eye. It is your brain that does the work based on the crude data from the eye. Largely the same areas of the brain are active when you imagine seeing something and when you actually look at something.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    How can I see those images in my eye when I shut out all external light forces
    You are not seeing them in your eye - as adelady says, you never see anything in your eye. It is your brain that does the work based on the crude data from the eye. Largely the same areas of the brain are active when you imagine seeing something and when you actually look at something.
    I do not understand when you say I am not seeing it, what would you say I am seeing? And if the brain is doing the work it surely is getting the information from some other source and creating results. Where is the brain showing the results, and how can I read these results if not through vision or feelings?

    You are not seeing them in your eye - as adelady says, you never see anything in your eye.
    Why would you have eyes if you never see anything in them?
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    My understanding is that light waves exist but colour does not exist. The brain has simply made colour up completely due to its evolutionary advantage.

    I read about that in an article I’ll just dig up for you now that I found interesting. It contains some interesting optical illusions to demonstrate.
    BBC News - Do you see what I see?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    I do not understand when you say I am not seeing it, what would you say I am seeing?
    I didn't say you are not seeing them. I mean that, when your eyes are closed, the images you see are purely in your brain. Your brain creates the large, detailed, three-dimensional, stable, focussed view of the world around you. The eye produces very fuzzy images which are only in focus in a very small area, and are constantly jerking around. You are not aware of any of that because what you perceive is generated by the brain from those rough inputs (plus what you learnt as a child).

    And if the brain is doing the work it surely is getting the information from some other source and creating results.
    If you are remembering something you have seen then the input to the visual system comes from memories. If you are dreaming or hallucinating then it may just be random "noise" that the visual system then tries to make sense of.

    Where is the brain showing the results, and how can I read these results if not through vision or feelings?
    It isn't "showing" them in the snse of projecting them on a screen for "you" to look at (because that gets you into an infinite regress). Rather it is the bit of you that is the visual system that is generating and perceiving the images.

    Why would you have eyes if you never see anything in them?
    To provide the raw inputs to the visual system.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    I do not understand when you say I am not seeing it, what would you say I am seeing?
    I didn't say you are not seeing them. I mean that, when your eyes are closed, the images you see are purely in your brain. Your brain creates the large, detailed, three-dimensional, stable, focussed view of the world around you. The eye produces very fuzzy images which are only in focus in a very small area, and are constantly jerking around. You are not aware of any of that because what you perceive is generated by the brain from those rough inputs (plus what you learnt as a child).
    And if the brain is doing the work it surely is getting the information from some other source and creating results.
    If you are remembering something you have seen then the input to the visual system comes from memories. If you are dreaming or hallucinating then it may just be random "noise" that the visual system then tries to make sense of.

    Where is the brain showing the results, and how can I read these results if not through vision or feelings?
    It isn't "showing" them in the snse of projecting them on a screen for "you" to look at (because that gets you into an infinite regress). Rather it is the bit of you that is the visual system that is generating and perceiving the images.

    Why would you have eyes if you never see anything in them?
    To provide the raw inputs to the visual system.
    What about the pineal eye where does it get the info from, there must be a separate memory for that kind of information.

    yes, I agree the images are in my brain however when I close my eyes and look at those images they have changed their nature although I am seeing the dimentions. When my eyes are open another element is added to the whole pictue which is not there when I close them.


    You make it sound as if dreaming is not a part of the reality. Dreaming entails closing the eye, the visional side has changed because light from the outside world is not involved.

    yet I am conscous of them in my vision, woulden't you say?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    What about the pineal eye where does it get the info from, there must be a separate memory for that kind of information.
    The pineal gland has (as far as I know) nothing at all to do with sight. And it certainly isn't an "eye".
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    What about the pineal eye where does it get the info from, there must be a separate memory for that kind of information.
    The pineal gland has (as far as I know) nothing at all to do with sight. And it certainly isn't an "eye".
    Strange, I know you did not read up on the pineal gland because there is information on recent studies.

    What about the pineal eye where does it get the info from, there must be a separate memory for that kind of information.
    What is it? and where does it gather its information? I am sure it must be some where in the brain. How does it gather it is my next question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    Strange, I know you did not read up on the pineal gland because there is information on recent studies.
    Well, that would be fascinating. Where are these recent studies?
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    Strange, I know you did not read up on the pineal gland because there is information on recent studies.
    Well, that would be fascinating. Where are these recent studies?
    You can do your own studies and not rely on the ones I found which might be biased, I am sure you know that google and some other search engine can help.
    I think you have to know that although I do not use quotes a lot I do read a lot. Some of the things I say on the forum is a combination of knowledge through books, it has its value.s
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    The brain does all the work of seeing and hearing. It just uses inputs from sense organs for real life stuff. No sensory inputs required for dreams, imagination or hallucinations.

    If you read Norman Doidge's "The Brain That Changes Itself" you'll find some fan.tas.tic stuff on brain plasticity where people who've lost their sight are learning to use other parts of the body as a substitute sense organ for sight. Not read-a-book quality sight, but get around without a dog or a stick quality sight.
    I did check out the Norman Doidge's "The Brain That Changes Itself, and it was interesting, however I cannot say that this is the first time I am hearing this information about the brain. I want to think that some of this information is now coming to light but not new on the planet.
    This information could help us to teach the brain to repair itself by reeducating itself and finding alternatives routes for damage in the body and help to replace surgery, a method not really optimal for proper recovery. I for one do not beleive the body should be oppened to repair it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    You can do your own studies and not rely on the ones I found which might be biased, I am sure you know that google and some other search engine can help.
    Well, all the information I can find about the pineal gland is that it produces melatonin which affects various things such as sleep and activity, and reproduction. The production of melatonin is affected by the amount of light the eyes receive so that this is all part of the bodies diurnal and seasonal rhythms.

    For example: Pineal Gland and Melatonin

    If you cannot provide any information about what you are referring to then I will just have to conclude it is more of your made-up stuff.

    Therefore:

    What about the pineal eye where does it get the info from, there must be a separate memory for that kind of information.
    It doesn't "get info" and it doesn't need a "separate memory".
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    You can do your own studies and not rely on the ones I found which might be biased, I am sure you know that google and some other search engine can help.
    Well, all the information I can find about the pineal gland is that it produces melatonin which affects various things such as sleep and activity, and reproduction. The production of melatonin is affected by the amount of light the eyes receive so that this is all part of the bodies diurnal and seasonal rhythms.

    For example: Pineal Gland and Melatonin

    If you cannot provide any information about what you are referring to then I will just have to conclude it is more of your made-up stuff.

    Therefore:

    What about the pineal eye where does it get the info from, there must be a separate memory for that kind of information.
    It doesn't "get info" and it doesn't need a "separate memory".
    It doesn't "get info" and it doesn't need a "separate memory".
    You always seem to make me laugh when you answer the questions like this, as if the pineal gland stands uniquely alone and needs no input.

    I don't usualy do this but I will look up some info for you, I myself take everything with a grain of salt, I hope you do the same.
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    [QUOTE=Mother/father;352082]
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    You can do your own studies and not rely on the ones I found which might be biased, I am sure you know that google and some other search engine can help.
    Well, all the information I can find about the pineal gland is that it produces melatonin which affects various things such as sleep and activity, and reproduction. The production of melatonin is affected by the amount of light the eyes receive so that this is all part of the bodies diurnal and seasonal rhythms.

    For example: Pineal Gland and Melatonin

    If you cannot provide any information about what you are referring to then I will just have to conclude it is more of your made-up stuff.

    Therefore:

    What about the pineal eye where does it get the info from, there must be a separate memory for that kind of information.
    It doesn't "get info" and it doesn't need a "separate memory".
    It doesn't "get info" and it doesn't need a "separate memory".
    You always seem to make me laugh when you answer the questions like this, as if the pineal gland stands uniquely alone and needs no input.

    I don't usualy do this but I will look up some info for you, I myself take everything with a grain of salt, I hope you do the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    It doesn't "get info" and it doesn't need a "separate memory".
    You always seem to make me laugh when you answer the questions like this, as if the pineal gland stands uniquely alone and needs no input.
    Well, as I say, it gets input from the visual system which controls the production of melatonin. I'm not sure that counts as "information". But maybe it does.

    I don't usualy do this but I will look up some info for you, I myself take everything with a grain of salt, I hope you do the same.
    I do. The less reliable the source, the largely the grain of salt. In the case of a discussion with you, I have several large baskets of salt handy.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    It doesn't "get info" and it doesn't need a "separate memory".
    You always seem to make me laugh when you answer the questions like this, as if the pineal gland stands uniquely alone and needs no input.
    Well, as I say, it gets input from the visual system which controls the production of melatonin. I'm not sure that counts as "information". But maybe it does.

    I don't usualy do this but I will look up some info for you, I myself take everything with a grain of salt, I hope you do the same.
    I do. The less reliable the source, the largely the grain of salt. In the case of a discussion with you, I have several large baskets of salt handy.
    Ha,HA, just make it sea salt and I won't bark.

    Third Eye - Pineal Gland - Crystalinks

    I will look for more and give it to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    Third Eye - Pineal Gland - Crystalinks

    I will look for more and give it to you.
    The first paragraph is a reasonable summary. The remaining stuff under the "Pseudoscience" heading is obviously bollocks.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    It doesn't "get info" and it doesn't need a "separate memory".
    You always seem to make me laugh when you answer the questions like this, as if the pineal gland stands uniquely alone and needs no input.
    Well, as I say, it gets input from the visual system which controls the production of melatonin. I'm not sure that counts as "information". But maybe it does.

    I don't usualy do this but I will look up some info for you, I myself take everything with a grain of salt, I hope you do the same.
    I do. The less reliable the source, the largely the grain of salt. In the case of a discussion with you, I have several large baskets of salt handy.
    Well, as I say, it gets input from the visual system which controls the production of melatonin. I'm not sure that counts as "information". But maybe it does.
    The information that goes to the pineal does not get its information directly from the visual system at least not in the same format. There seems to be another compleatly different system involved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    Third Eye - Pineal Gland - Crystalinks

    I will look for more and give it to you.
    The first paragraph is a reasonable summary. The remaining stuff under the "Pseudoscience" heading is obviously bollocks.
    I do not know how much you know about the pineal I was looking up information for you. This is why you should look it up for yourself, you know what you know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    The information that goes to the pineal does not get its information directly from the visual system at least not in the same format. There seems to be another compleatly different system involved.
    "Seems to be"? Based on what? You cannot provide any data to back up this. It is just stuff you are inventing.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    I do not know how much you know about the pineal I was looking up information for you. This is why you should look it up for yourself, you know what you know.
    But the information you have looked up is clearly labelled "pseudoscience"; i.e. it is bollocks. Why not find some real information; i.e. science to back up the your claims? This is, after all, a science forum. It is not stuff-I-made-up-forum.com.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    The information that goes to the pineal does not get its information directly from the visual system at least not in the same format. There seems to be another compleatly different system involved.
    "Seems to be"? Based on what? You cannot provide any data to back up this. It is just stuff you are inventing.
    If I am inventing this stuff then I am better than I though I was. Even if I dumped all the information I could find on you, I am sure you would wiggle out of it because you are not able to see farther than the book.






    Morphological and biochemical study of the pineal gland of ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    Even if I dumped all the information I could find on you, I am sure you would wiggle out of it because you are not able to see farther than the book.
    If you provided scientific references for information then it would be taken seriously. You are notoriously bad at providing anything other than vague speculation that, as far as I can tel, you invent.

    Both of the links you have provided have been badly broken for some reason.

    Morphological and biochemical study of... [Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

    I'm not sure what you think the relevance of this is. It says that the pineal gland is related to reproduction and changes during gestation. So ... ? What conclusions do you draw from this? And why?
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Strange, it is so difficult to get into the grove of meaningful discussion with you because you lack a certain vision. Your imagination scan is quite short, I am not sure if its because you have to know life only through the atom or what. There should be a part of you that is able to communicate without the reading of script, you know, a slight bit our of your own head or thoughts without quotes or proof. I do not like to use too much book in my conversations as mentioned before but too much is very apt to give me jaundice, I don't think my liver is up to that standard.

    I do not think you are that arrogant to think I do not read, knowing that if you did you would have been dialoging with a compleat genius/or idiot to have cought your attention and held it. I have learn somethings from you on the forum, and I am glad I did, some are positive and some negative. What I cannot say is I could embrace the conversations. They always appear in a sort of dictatorial fashion as always you wanting desperately to be the teacher not having enough room left to become the pupil, although I think you are very knowledgable at least to what I think I know about science. I do not think you have read the books that I have read, the same goes for me, what I am sure of is that you know something,I know something, some of it we can prove, some of it we cannot.
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    Mother/Father, the point here is that the image you see of the computer screen in front of you right now is formed in your brain. Your eyes are photo-receptors which send messages to your brain, and your brain interprets those message into an image that you "see". What you "see" in dreams is due to your brain performing the same function, but it uses your thoughts or memories rather than the messages coming from your eyes. When are awake and your eyes are closed, you see the inside of your eyelids.

    In some animals (fish and lizards) there is a parietal eye, which is a bunch of photo-receptors which are attached to the pineal gland, and this is where the idea of a "third eye" comes from. Birds and mammals do not have a parietal eye, they just have the gland.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    Mother/Father, the point here is that the image you see of the computer screen in front of you right now is formed in your brain. Your eyes are photo-receptors which send messages to your brain, and your brain interprets those message into an image that you "see". What you "see" in dreams is due to your brain performing the same function, but it uses your thoughts or memories rather than the messages coming from your eyes. When are awake and your eyes are closed, you see the inside of your eyelids.

    In some animals (fish and lizards) there is a parietal eye, which is a bunch of photo-receptors which are attached to the pineal gland, and this is where the idea of a "third eye" comes from. Birds and mammals do not have a parietal eye, they just have the gland.
    The first part of your answer I follow and agree except for the part when you close your eyes you see your eyelids. Even if you say you see your eyelids you are seing something and if you look closely enough you see patterns and shimmers of light. Why would you blink when your eyes are closed.?Just so we are on the same page, I am looking for a memory system that feeds into the pineal gland but receives its information from the visual memory system.
    I am saying that when I close my eyes I am seeing light impulses and patterns. Where is this light coming from? Since I know it must be coming from the brain some place, to what storage system is it connected, and where does the information come from?
    I hope it makes sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    I am looking for a memory system that feeds into the pineal gland but receives its information from the visual memory system.
    What makes you think such a thing exists? As far as I know there is no such thing.

    I am saying that when I close my eyes I am seeing light impulses and patterns. Where is this light coming from?
    Some of it is light coming through the eyelid. Some is random "noise" from the retina, optic nerve and other parts of the visual system.

    The various parts of the brain that deal with interpreting the stimuli from the retina then try and make sensible images from this random noise (as they do with normal signals from the retina). This is what causes moving coloured patterns to appear, rather than just noise.

    Isaac Newton did a series of experiments where he poked his eyeballs with a blunt needle to see what effect it would have.
    The visuals of poking underneith one’s eye with a blunt needle « Ideas that won't work and projects I'll never finish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    I am saying that when I close my eyes I am seeing light impulses and patterns.
    Are you referring to close eye hallucination and visual snow by any chance?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    The first part of your answer I follow and agree except for the part when you close your eyes you see your eyelids. Even if you say you see your eyelids you are seing something and if you look closely enough you see patterns and shimmers of light.
    Those patterns and shimmers of light arise initially from the after-images on your retina, which is why if you stare at a light bulb and then close your eyes you see a blob of colour where the lightbulb was, and they also come from the small amount of light that passes through your eyelids, showing the veins in your eyelids.

    Try shutting your eyes and then shining a torch at your face - you see the light of the torch through your closed eyelids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    Why would you blink when your eyes are closed.?
    I wasn't aware that anyone blinks when their eyes are closed. Why would they? I don't understand where this question is coming from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    Just so we are on the same page, I am looking for a memory system that feeds into the pineal gland but receives its information from the visual memory system.
    That would be the brain, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    I am saying that when I close my eyes I am seeing light impulses and patterns. Where is this light coming from? Since I know it must be coming from the brain some place, to what storage system is it connected, and where does the information come from?
    I hope it makes sense.
    You seem to have it all backwards. The light does not come from the brain, it comes from photons hitting your retina, which sends a message TO your brain that it detected some light. The light either came through your closed eyelids, or is a residual effect of the retina "over-firing" due to the sudden change in the light conditions in your eye (like when you stare at a light bulb and then look into a dark corner or close your eyes, you see a coloured blob).
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    Just so we are on the same page, I am looking for a memory system that feeds into the pineal gland but receives its information from the visual memory system.
    That would be the brain, then.
    I would point out that, as far as I know, memories do not "feed into pineal gland" (otherwise you could overcome jetlag by just remembering the light shining).
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    Speedfreak... you're speaking about blobs of light that remain just after you close your eyelids... but there is clearly more to what the 'minds eye' sees than that.

    You point out that some light does get through the eyelids, which ofcourse is correct. But in the case of a sensory deprivation box... no significant light or radiation will be reaching the retina etc.

    So in this case we still see images though no light is reaching the retina. M/F describes these images as 'light' or inner light. I can fully understand why MF would think of this as inner light, because effectively an image in the minds eye appears to the mind as 'light'.

    It might be that it is not light, it is just the mind visualising interpretations of light, based on the light it has previously interpreted with open eyes.

    I just think that you have misunderstood MF's comments that you quoted...

    The 'light' MF mentions as coming from the brain somewhere... is like the 'mind's visualisation', which appears as light to the mind, yet probably does come from the brain and is not itself light.

    Misfiring of the retina might account for some of the stuff we see with eyes shut, especial just after we close the eyelids and still have impressions of the light we just saw...

    but in the case of vivid dreams... it seems to me there is no misfiring involved. The images we see in the mind, even in the 'sub conscious' mind, during sleep, are too complex, too vivid, and too related to our thoughts (conscious and subconscious), to be called random misfiring.

    Our brain, it seems, is somehow making these specific images appear in our minds eye. It has more to do with our thoughts, than with some kind of random misfirings of the retina.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Speedfreak... you're speaking about blobs of light that remain just after you close your eyelids... but there is clearly more to what the 'minds eye' sees than that.
    I was addressing Mother/Fathers question about what he/she sees when he/she simply closes his/her eyes. Sleep, or sensory deprivation is a different matter, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    So in this case we still see images though no light is reaching the retina. M/F describes these images as 'light' or inner light. I can fully understand why MF would think of this as inner light, because effectively an image in the minds eye appears to the mind as 'light'.
    But no light is actually involved. The visual cortex is sending messages even though its detectors are closed!

    The 'light' MF mentions as coming from the brain somewhere... is like the 'mind's visualisation', which appears as light to the mind, yet probably does come from the brain and is not itself light.
    Heh, well I am used to the standard definition for light.

    but in the case of vivid dreams... it seems to me there is no misfiring involved. The images we see in the mind, even in the 'sub conscious' mind, during sleep, are too complex, too vivid, and too related to our thoughts (conscious and subconscious), to be called random misfiring.
    I was only talking about what you see when you close your eyes! I already spoke earlier of dreams coming from memories or thoughts, rather than from detected light, but this latest discussion is about what you see when you close your eyes.

    Our brain, it seems, is somehow making these specific images appear in our minds eye. It has more to do with our thoughts, than with some kind of random misfirings of the retina.
    I never said anything different. Dreams are nothing to do with light, as I have already said. Now we are simply dealing with what you see when your eyes are closed.

    You see the inside of your eyelids.
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    Ok speed, I might have been mistaken.

    I thought MF was including dreams and visualisations into the mix of what we see with eyes shut. I didn't notice the convo get specific about what we see 'just after the eyelids close, or when looking at light through the eyelids.

    This thread has been going well though, thanks to everybody who has contributed with info, ideas and links.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Ok speed, I might have been mistaken.

    I thought MF was including dreams and visualisations into the mix of what we see with eyes shut. I didn't notice the convo get specific about what we see 'just after the eyelids close, or when looking at light through the eyelids.

    This thread has been going well though, thanks to everybody who has contributed with info, ideas and links.
    QFY, I want to include dreams and visualisations into the mix, but first trying to get over the first hurdle of identifying what we are sing when the eyes are closed.
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    Well it seems that just after shutting eyes... we see 'misfirings' of our seeing equipment.

    Then after a while when we start seeing clear and detailed images... it seems we are seeing visions of light that have been stored in the memory banks of the brain. But since they are not always memories... they are creations of creativity within the mind...

    I wonder what a baby sees in it minds eye, befor it can see with it's eyes.
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    Well, I described the after-image we see as an "overfiring" of the retina when a light source suddenly disappears, or we look away, or we close our eyes, but I might just as well describe it as the brain itself creating the after-image due to the way it uses the information from our retina. It seems the brain likes to fill in gaps or extrapolate a lot of what we think we see and the after-image might be a part of that process.

    It is the way that the brain processes what we see that is the reason for optical illusions:


    There is nothing moving in the image above. Any movement you see is caused by your brain. Stare directly at the centre black dot for long enough and the movement slows to a halt.

    There is something moving in the next one, but all that is actually happening is that each pink spot is erased in turn, leaving the grey background showing as the gap in the pink spots moves around the circle. But if you stare at the black cross in the centre, you will start to see a green dot in the gap, and then you should start to see the green dot erasing the other pink dots!



    The green dot and its erasing of any of the other pink dots is all in your mind!

    The cause of that green dot has something to do with what you might see when your eyes are closed.
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    i've seen these particular optical illusions before but did not understand how they work or what is happening... I'd like to know more about what is actually happening. Do you have the name of the maker of these illusions or where I might find out exactly what is going on? cheers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    It seems the brain likes to fill in gaps....
    I find it fascinating that the human brain is aware it is "fooling" itself as it considers these illusions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    i've seen these particular optical illusions before but did not understand how they work or what is happening... I'd like to know more about what is actually happening. Do you have the name of the maker of these illusions or where I might find out exactly what is going on? cheers.
    QFY, there is a place in the eye when you close them where you can see patterns that are so complex that you would be amased if you have not yet experienced it. This place is like a twilight zone where black crosses light, this is why I use the term greater and lesser light. When we close our eyes we are still looking, we move the eye in three dimensions as if they were open as if we are searching in the dark. There are some interesting things to know about dark light or dark matter. Science in its subjective form can study this and come up with results in terms of man know thy self.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    It seems the brain likes to fill in gaps....
    I find it fascinating that the human brain is aware it is "fooling" itself as it considers these illusions.
    My friend this is life it contradicts itself.
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    My 'brain' is not aware that it is fooling itself, nor is my mind...
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    SF,

    I find this very interesting. When I close my eyes I take the last object I see inside to the darkness, it takes a short time and the image is swollowed up by the darkness but not compleatly. I see something like white noice but the light is different and seems finer. If I continue looking the noise changes to patterns or points that makes patterns. When I block out all the external light from my eyes and look closer into the dark I see that the patterns have changed and also the intencity of the light. I think even if you say the illusion of the brain you have to admit something is happening, it would be difficult to know what is happening in the brain because of the endless calculation being processed.

    Lets look at the pink dot as it moves along it changes to green, at least thats what the eyes tells us. Truth is, can you say the eyes are not seeing green or that green is not being produced? maybe green is a component of the pink and our brain is relaying that information to the eye. This might not be an illusion although you cannot see the green because of other factors.

    The other images I know because I have seen them in the blind spot of my eye. I can even move the circle from the pictures clockwise or anticlockwise depending on the position of my head. I think this movement is owing to the crossing of the colors or the light changes, however I think we are using light to create this movement and we cannot be sure what the brain is seeing. I see a change in the light sourse from outer to inner sight and I am seeing two different systems. I see two types of conscousness tied to these two lights. Most studies I have read do not go on the inside of vision as much as the two outer lights. I would like to understand what is happening when I close my eyes.


    There is also lurking in the back of my mind the theory that black is the absents of light. The twilight zone suggest that there are two lights, for us humans it would mean one inside and one outside, I would like to know more about the inside one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    Lets look at the pink dot as it moves along it changes to green, at least thats what the eyes tells us. Truth is, can you say the eyes are not seeing green or that green is not being produced? maybe green is a component of the pink and our brain is relaying that information to the eye. This might not be an illusion although you cannot see the green because of other factors.
    Green is not a component of pink. There is no green in that image at all. The green colour is an illusion of the mind - it is the "opposite" colour to pink, and the mind creates the green because it thinks that is what should be there when the pink is removed.

    You still have it backwards, it is the eye that relays the colour information to the brain, not the other way around. The eye collects light, relays that information to the brain, and the brain interprets that information into the images that you see.

    Here is a similar illusion. Stare at the coloured dots at the tip of the models nose, for 30 seconds, then look at a white sheet of paper, or a light coloured wall, or even the blank area next to the picture.



    You should have seen the model (Beyonce!) in normal colour!

    The brain is interesting, eh?
    Last edited by SpeedFreek; September 18th, 2012 at 05:43 AM.
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    Another way of getting some insight (pun intended) into the visual system is to look at what happens when it goes wrong due to brain damage (accidents, stroke, etc). There are some fascinating examples in the book The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat, Oliver Sacks.

    People can lose a very specific function, such as face blindness where they can no longer recognise faces even though their sight is perfectly normal.

    Some people only see one half of things. Sacks describes cases where people will only eat the food one one side of the plate. Turn the plate 90 degrees and they will eat half of what is left. Draw their attention to the other side and they will see it but then forget it again.

    There was one case of a man who went completely blind but didn't care because he also lost the the whole concept of sight. "I'm afraid you can no longer see.", "What is this 'see' of which you speak?"

    And then there is blindsight; people who are completely blind due to brain damage but can navigate around a room avoiding obstacles they can't see. This is obviously handled by a "lower level" of brain function that they are unaware of. They will even make excuses for why they moved to avoid an object.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Another way of getting some insight (pun intended) into the visual system is to look at what happens when it goes wrong due to brain damage (accidents, stroke, etc). There are some fascinating examples in the book The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat, Oliver Sacks.

    People can lose a very specific function, such as face blindness where they can no longer recognise faces even though their sight is perfectly normal.

    Some people only see one half of things. Sacks describes cases where people will only eat the food one one side of the plate. Turn the plate 90 degrees and they will eat half of what is left. Draw their attention to the other side and they will see it but then forget it again.

    There was one case of a man who went completely blind but didn't care because he also lost the the whole concept of sight. "I'm afraid you can no longer see.", "What is this 'see' of which you speak?"

    And then there is blindsight; people who are completely blind due to brain damage but can navigate around a room avoiding obstacles they can't see. This is obviously handled by a "lower level" of brain function that they are unaware of. They will even make excuses for why they moved to avoid an object.
    I acknowledge all of what you are saying that all of the above mentioned is possible when something goes wrong. I have been searching all over for the question I am asking but I am not finding much to go on. It seems the topic never comes up often enough to stimulate discussions.
    I know you are a proud threader, and no one can ask you to try out anything because you know every thing but if you can come down just a wee bit and close your eyes and have a good look into the dark, then compleatly block out the outside light so it is really dark and look into the darkness. Strange I dare you to say what you see. Knowing you there might be some ghost hiding in the dark. Ha Ha
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    I have been searching all over for the question I am asking but I am not finding much to go on.
    It seems to me that you have had several very good answers to your question already. And some from me as well.

    It is the visual system in the brain generating images in the absence of light. These may be created by memories. Or they may just be generated from the random firing of neurons in the absence of meaningful input from the retina.

    Could you explain why you find this answer unsatisfying? Some of your questions and statements are not very clear (to me, at least). As I'm sure you have got used to by now.
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    SF

    Green is not a component of pink. There is no green in that image at all. The green colour is an illusion of the mind - it is the "opposite" colour to pink, and the mind creates the green because it thinks that is what should be there when the pink is removed.
    I know green as we know it is not a component of pink, but something is showing me green and I am seeing it through my eyes. I am not sure I know what is going on it might be a trick of the brain but green is a specific frequency and my brain or memory has used this frequency to project into my vision.

    The picture of the face make somewhat sense to me, I can see the focus point is kind of broadbandish somewhat like spot measurement on a camera when I stare at the nose. I think the brain gets a sort of overall ballance in intencity. I am a little shy to call it opticall illusion because as QFY says how can the brain fool itself and does not know what is happening. There as to be a part of us that knows everything possible and impossible.

    And yes the brain is very interesting. Those pictures are also interesting.
    Last edited by Mother/father; September 18th, 2012 at 01:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    I have been searching all over for the question I am asking but I am not finding much to go on.
    It seems to me that you have had several very good answers to your question already. And some from me as well.

    It is the visual system in the brain generating images in the absence of light. These may be created by memories. Or they may just be generated from the random firing of neurons in the absence of meaningful input from the retina.


    Could you explain why you find this answer unsatisfying? Some of your questions and statements are not very clear (to me, at least). As I'm sure you have got used to by now.
    I am not saying that your answers are not relevant, they are helping to put the puzzle together, I am not yet in control of what I know, there are many questions I want to ask and get answered if possible the more I understand the more I get satisfied. I recognise your input you always have a hard time recognising mine.


    Please just ask when I get get you muddled up, it would be a shame to mess up a good mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    I know green as we know it is not a component of pink, but something is showing me green and I am seeing it through my eyes.
    That is they the key thing. You are not seeing green "through your eyes". This could be demonstrated by showing that the relevant parts of the retina or optic system are not stimulated (I don't know if that has been done for this specific illusion, but it has been done for equivalent ones).

    So the green is never in your eyes. Your visual system generates it (as it generates nearly everything you see).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Largely the same areas of the brain are active when you imagine seeing something and when you actually look at something.
    Depends on the person. Ask an engineer and a painter, to imagine a shipping container. Both will say they "see" the container. But yeah, each will have her unique brain activity when actually looking at a shipping container.

    We used to say people dream in black & white, because mostly we are dreaming the concepts of things, where colour is rarely significant. So if you dream a stack of shipping containers you may neglect to colour them. It's all inside-out, and abbreviated: If one dreams a polka-dot dress one doesn't dream each and every spot; just a sort of fractal recipe for polka-dots. Yet in reflection we feel we have completely "seen" the polka-dot dress in our dreams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    We used to say people dream in black & white, because mostly we are dreaming the concepts of things, where colour is rarely significant. So if you dream a stack of shipping containers you may neglect to colour them. It's all inside-out, and abbreviated: If one dreams a polka-dot dress one doesn't dream each and every spot; just a sort of fractal recipe for polka-dots. Yet in reflection we feel we have completely "seen" the polka-dot dress in our dreams.
    Agreed.

    And I would say our memories work the same way. We don't actually see anything in our mind's eye, we bring forth a concept and add various features to it that have been associated to it in our minds. When we think of something, we construct it from scratch using the same faculties we use to make sense of the world.

    I don't have any references for this though. It is only what makes the most sense to me.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    I know green as we know it is not a component of pink, but something is showing me green and I am seeing it through my eyes.
    That is they the key thing. You are not seeing green "through your eyes". This could be demonstrated by showing that the relevant parts of the retina or optic system are not stimulated (I don't know if that has been done for this specific illusion, but it has been done for equivalent ones).

    So the green is never in your eyes. Your visual system generates it (as it generates nearly everything you see).
    Are you saying its my brain that is showing me the green and my eyes are seeing nothing? You must admit as a scientist that there has to be a reason we see green, and, we would want to know where it is coming from. If the results from calculation shows errors from the brain, that means it is recognised as errors some where. It could be in the eye it could be in the brain. This would indicate the brain could not be trusted, it allows serious errors to pass through it and does not recognise that they are errors. There also has to be a eye in the brain, if the color green shows up as part of the pink color.
    Last edited by Mother/father; September 19th, 2012 at 11:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    Are you saying its my brain that is showing me the green and my eyes are seeing nothing? You must admit as a scientist that there has to be a reason we see green, and, we would want to know where it is coming from. If the results from calculation were showing errors means it is recognise as errors some where. It could be in the eye it could be in the brain. This would indicate the brain could not be trusted, it allows serious errors to pass through it and does not recognise that they are errors. There also has to be a eye in the brain, if the color green shows up as part of the pink color.
    Your eyes are gathering the information about the reflected light and your brain is interpreting it. Our brain says something is green when it reflects a specific wavelength picked up by our eyes. Of course, your brain can misinterpret this information which can lead to anything from colorblindness to complete blindness. A person with perfectly functioning eyes can lose their sight due to brain trauma or optic nerve damage.

    I don't know how to respond to "eye in the brain" except with a picture of the monster from The Crawling Eye.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    [Are you saying its my brain that is showing me the green and my eyes are seeing nothing?
    That is exactly what I am saying. The eye is just a very crude organ for detecting light. It does not generate the high quality images we see.

    You must admit as a scientist that there has to be a reason we see green, and, we would want to know where it is coming from.
    And that is why scientists have carried out an enormous amount of research into this.

    This would indicate the brain could not be trusted, it allows serious errors to pass through it and does not recognise that they are errors.
    The brain cannot be trusted. As these illusions demonstrate. As is also shown by people who suffer from delusions (who may or may not know they are deluded). And the unreliability of eye witness testimony. Sometimes we know the brain is being fooled (as in these otical illusions) sometimes we don't (UFOs).

    This is one reason for the way science is conducted; to remove the errors and biases of individual brains and get closer to objective data.

    There also has to be a eye in the brain, if the color green shows up as part of the pink color.
    There is no need for an eye in the brain as it is the brain that does the "seeing".
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    We used to say people dream in black & white, because mostly we are dreaming the concepts of things, where colour is rarely significant. So if you dream a stack of shipping containers you may neglect to colour them. It's all inside-out, and abbreviated: If one dreams a polka-dot dress one doesn't dream each and every spot; just a sort of fractal recipe for polka-dots. Yet in reflection we feel we have completely "seen" the polka-dot dress in our dreams.
    Agreed.

    And I would say our memories work the same way. We don't actually see anything in our mind's eye, we bring forth a concept and add various features to it that have been associated to it in our minds. When we think of something, we construct it from scratch using the same faculties we use to make sense of the world.

    I don't have any references for this though. It is only what makes the most sense to me.
    I

    I don't know this for sure but I think the reason why we do not dream colors is because of the dark light spectrum in the dream world.
    Most things that we do in the dark world are different to the light world why? There is a depth to our thinking in the dark world that is not there in the light outside world. The stars in the sky have in the day time a blue background but in the night it has a black background. I think it makes a difference how we see the stars and think about them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    We used to say people dream in black & white
    Last time someone said that I decided to check next time I had a dream (I very rarely dream - or rather, I rarely remember my dreams). I definitely dream in colour. I'm sure everyone does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    Lets look at the pink dot as it moves along it changes to green, at least thats what the eyes tells us. Truth is, can you say the eyes are not seeing green or that green is not being produced? maybe green is a component of the pink and our brain is relaying that information to the eye. This might not be an illusion although you cannot see the green because of other factors.
    Green is not a component of pink. There is no green in that image at all. The green colour is an illusion of the mind - it is the "opposite" colour to pink, and the mind creates the green because it thinks that is what should be there when the pink is removed.

    You still have it backwards, it is the eye that relays the colour information to the brain, not the other way around. The eye collects light, relays that information to the brain, and the brain interprets that information into the images that you see.

    Here is a similar illusion. Stare at the coloured dots at the tip of the models nose, for 30 seconds, then look at a white sheet of paper, or a light coloured wall, or even the blank area next to the picture.



    You should have seen the model (Beyonce!) in normal colour!

    The brain is interesting, eh?
    You do not have to stare at the three colors you can cover them and the image appears just the same. I think this is happening because the brain has turned the image around and reflected it on a different background. I want to think the backgroud has a lot to do with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    We used to say people dream in black & white
    Last time someone said that I decided to check next time I had a dream (I very rarely dream - or rather, I rarely remember my dreams). I definitely dream in colour. I'm sure everyone does.
    Very rearly can I remember dreaming in colors, most times its in black and white. But this observation would broaden the question whats going on in the dream world or dark world, or brain for that matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    You do not have to stare at the three colors you can cover them and the image appears just the same. I think this is happening because the brain has turned the image around and reflected it on a different background. I want to think the backgroud has a lot to do with it.
    Your description, "the brain has turned the image around" is pretty close to what happens. An important feature of the nervous system is adaptation: the way it gets used to a constant stimulus. So when you stare at the negative image, gradually the neurons in your visual system respond less to the stimulus. They effectively start to treat the image input as "no input". When you look away to a blank surface, they are still adjusted to the negative image and so interpret the blank surface as being coloured in the reverse of the picture. That after-image then fades away as your eyes adjust to the new input.

    Basically the same process that allows us to see daylight and electric light as the same colour (even though they are very different).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    You do not have to stare at the three colors you can cover them and the image appears just the same. I think this is happening because the brain has turned the image around and reflected it on a different background. I want to think the backgroud has a lot to do with it.
    Your description, "the brain has turned the image around" is pretty close to what happens. An important feature of the nervous system is adaptation: the way it gets used to a constant stimulus. So when you stare at the negative image, gradually the neurons in your visual system respond less to the stimulus. They effectively start to treat the image input as "no input". When you look away to a blank surface, they are still adjusted to the negative image and so interpret the blank surface as being coloured in the reverse of the picture. That after-image then fades away as your eyes adjust to the new input.

    Basically the same process that allows us to see daylight and electric light as the same colour (even though they are very different).
    That sort of make sense to me mostly because the image is coming from the eyes into the brain. However I am still very interested in what happens when I close my eyes, the first image I see when I close my eyes is the last image I see when my eyes are open. This takes a short while and then the image is gone, what happens next is I see dark mixed with what I am apprehensive to call light, although thats what I see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    You should have seen the model (Beyonce!) in normal colour!

    The brain is interesting, eh?
    I tried, but all I saw after I shifted focus in the blank white space was blank white space. I guess it doesn't work for me or I'm not doing it right.

    Anyway, here's a fun optical illusion. Try moving your head around or gently shaking the screen. Scrolling the page in different ways has the best effect. It's a completely still image, but the little "splindlies" seem to be moving relative to the background! Cool stuff.

    Dis muthufukka go hard. -Quote
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    Adaption is interesting how the brain filters out signals stimulated by the eyes, ears or nose that are constants. Take a smell - if you wander into a public toilet and get hit with an awful lingering smell, but then after awhile you notice you can no longer smell it. The smell is still there, it’s just the brain has filtered it out because it a contact stimulant.

    I understand the same brain mechanism works with our eyes but we don’t notice because our eyes are constantly shifting. For instance, If you were able to gently hold your eye balls still for a few seconds, keeping your eyes fixed and stare at a single spot that’s not changing then your vision will slowly disappear!

    But as for colour, my understanding is that colour doesn’t exist outside of our brains at all. Colour is the brains own fabrication, projected virtually inside our brains to distinguish the different light waves that our eyes absorb.

    I’ve 2 questions...

    Question 1.
    Our eyes absorb all light waves including x-rays(correct??) - but why doesn’t our brain project x-rays virtually into colour like it does with other light waves? Is it simply because there was no evolutionary advantage to it? I know there’s an evolutionary advantage to seen colours than just black and white. E.g. With colour you can spot a hidden black panther in a green jungle who wants to eat you.

    Question 2. Is Time fabricated by the brain in much the same way as colour is made up?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapples View Post
    But as for colour, my understanding is that colour doesn’t exist outside of our brains at all. Colour is the brains own fabrication, projected virtually inside our brains to distinguish the different light waves that our eyes absorb.
    I don't think colour is any more a creation of the brain than anything else we see. The eye has sets of receptors which are sensitive to three broad bands which (very roughly) correspond to red, green and blue. The relative strenght of these inputs determines the colour we see.

    Our eyes absorb all light waves including x-rays(correct??)
    Definitely not. X-rays will go straight through. Some infra-red frequencies won't even get through the cornea. Frequencies outside the range of the three sensors noted above (such as UV) won't interact with the chemical sensors and won't generate any stimulus.

    The range of colours we have evolved to see is probably based on a number of things: can it be focused by a material the body can make, does it interact with chemicals the body can make, is there a lot of it in sunlight, is it absorbed/reflected by surfaces around us (at some wavelengths, almost everything around us would be black), etc.

    Question 2. Is Time fabricated by the brain in much the same way as colour is made up?
    Some people thinks so. It doesn't make much sense to me. But then it is philosophy, so it wouldn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapples View Post
    Adaption is interesting how the brain filters out signals stimulated by the eyes, ears or nose that are constants. Take a smell - if you wander into a public toilet and get hit with an awful lingering smell, but then after awhile you notice you can no longer smell it. The smell is still there, it’s just the brain has filtered it out because it a contact stimulant.

    I understand the same brain mechanism works with our eyes but we don’t notice because our eyes are constantly shifting. For instance, If you were able to gently hold your eye balls still for a few seconds, keeping your eyes fixed and stare at a single spot that’s not changing then your vision will slowly disappear!

    But as for colour, my understanding is that colour doesn’t exist outside of our brains at all. Colour is the brains own fabrication, projected virtually inside our brains to distinguish the different light waves that our eyes absorb.

    I’ve 2 questions...

    Question 1.
    Our eyes absorb all light waves including x-rays(correct??) - but why doesn’t our brain project x-rays virtually into colour like it does with other light waves? Is it simply because there was no evolutionary advantage to it? I know there’s an evolutionary advantage to seen colours than just black and white. E.g. With colour you can spot a hidden black panther in a green jungle who wants to eat you.

    Question 2. Is Time fabricated by the brain in much the same way as colour is made up?
    Very interesting question, are you asking if color information for the brain is inborn? Some color information from the eye still has to enter the eye and introduced into the brain to syncronise the information don't you think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pineapples View Post
    But as for colour, my understanding is that colour doesn’t exist outside of our brains at all. Colour is the brains own fabrication, projected virtually inside our brains to distinguish the different light waves that our eyes absorb.
    I don't think colour is any more a creation of the brain than anything else we see. The eye has sets of receptors which are sensitive to three broad bands which (very roughly) correspond to red, green and blue. The relative strenght of these inputs determines the colour we see.

    Our eyes absorb all light waves including x-rays(correct??)
    Definitely not. X-rays will go straight through. Some infra-red frequencies won't even get through the cornea. Frequencies outside the range of the three sensors noted above (such as UV) won't interact with the chemical sensors and won't generate any stimulus.

    The range of colours we have evolved to see is probably based on a number of things: can it be focused by a material the body can make, does it interact with chemicals the body can make, is there a lot of it in sunlight, is it absorbed/reflected by surfaces around us (at some wavelengths, almost everything around us would be black), etc.

    Question 2. Is Time fabricated by the brain in much the same way as colour is made up?
    Some people thinks so. It doesn't make much sense to me. But then it is philosophy, so it wouldn't.
    I don't think colour is any more a creation of the brain than anything else we see. The eye has sets of receptors which are sensitive to three broad bands which (very roughly) correspond to red, green and blue. The relative strenght of these inputs determines the colour we see.
    I think this is true, sine the combinatin of these frequencies give white.

    Definitely not. X-rays will go straight through. Some infra-red frequencies won't even get through the cornea. Frequencies outside the range of the three sensors noted above (such as UV) won't interact with the chemical sensors and won't generate any stimulus.
    I think this is also true, one we croos the threshold of the frequencies of the three colors we lose vision of the rest of the spectrum.

    The range of colours we have evolved to see is probably based on a number of things: can it be focused by a material the body can make, does it interact with chemicals the body can make, is there a lot of it in sunlight, is it absorbed/reflected by surfaces around us (at some wavelengths, almost everything around us would be black), etc.
    Or at least what we are calling black. The back ground is the midium that dictates a lot about what we see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    I think this is true, sine the combinatin of these frequencies give white.
    Although, what we call white is very subjective. If you take a photograph under electric (incandescent) light, outside in the sun and on a glacier, the first one will be very orange, the second one white (1) and the last one blue. But to the eye, they all appear completely normal.

    (1) Only because this is what the camera is calibrated for, by default. You could adjust the camera settings to make either of the others appear white in a photo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    I think this is true, sine the combinatin of these frequencies give white.
    Although, what we call white is very subjective. If you take a photograph under electric (incandescent) light, outside in the sun and on a glacier, the first one will be very orange, the second one white (1) and the last one blue. But to the eye, they all appear completely normal.

    (1) Only because this is what the camera is calibrated for, by default. You could adjust the camera settings to make either of the others appear white in a photo
    What you are saying is taking me back to the original question of, what am I seeing when I close my eyes? I think there is something in the way our eyes interprit background. I am not sure I can accept that the brain does not know that it is inaccurate and continue to send out false information. If that was so then all the bother about accuracy would be null and void. it would also mean the inaccurate is accurate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post

    I don't know this for sure but I think the reason why we do not dream colors is because of the dark light spectrum in the dream world.
    Most things that we do in the dark world are different to the light world why? There is a depth to our thinking in the dark world that is not there in the light outside world. The stars in the sky have in the day time a blue background but in the night it has a black background. I think it makes a difference how we see the stars and think about them.
    I would sugges that we don't dream in color because we don't actually think in color. If you pull up a memory from your past, chances are you don't see it in full color or you cannot correctly recall the color. When it comes to our dreams, color is rarely an important factor. Our thoughts aren't necessarily visual in nature so maybe our brain doesn't bother colorizing them.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I would sugges that we don't dream in color because we don't actually think in color. If you pull up a memory from your past, chances are you don't see it in full color or you cannot correctly recall the color. When it comes to our dreams, color is rarely an important factor. Our thoughts aren't necessarily visual in nature so maybe our brain doesn't bother colorizing them.
    It may also be because there is not a lot of detail in dreams - if you can manage to "lucid dream" (where you are aware you are dreaming and in control) you can try to do something like read a newspaper - the writing is just moving patterns rather then being legible text.

    This may vary a lot between people. Some people have much stronger colour sense than others - they tend to also have a wider range of colour words. I know people who seem to have "perfect colour" like people have perfect pitch; they can colour match things from memory under arbitrary lighting conditions.
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    I've tried to lucid dream before, but it never works for me.

    I also need to pay better attention to the people argue with. I'm beginning to thing M/F isn't worth the effort. It always resorts to nonense from what I've seen.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I've tried to lucid dream before, but it never works for me.
    The trick is to.. well, err, the best way I might describe it is to compare it to the art of flying, where you have to throw yourself at the ground and miss.

    It is virtually impossible to do this on purpose, it usually happens when you get distracted mid-fall and miss the ground without even noticing you have done it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I've tried to lucid dream before, but it never works for me.

    I also need to pay better attention to the people argue with. I'm beginning to thing M/F isn't worth the effort. It always resorts to nonense from what I've seen.
    OK my friend I enjoyed some of the discussions we had, I am sorry I don't see it the same as you do, I think it was worth the effort to meet you online in the forum. Take care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I've tried to lucid dream before, but it never works for me.
    The trick is to.. well, err, the best way I might describe it is to compare it to the art of flying, where you have to throw yourself at the ground and miss.

    It is virtually impossible to do this on purpose, it usually happens when you get distracted mid-fall and miss the ground without even noticing you have done it.

    SF,

    I liked a lot of your points and I like the way you stuck to the topic. I hope some people can learn the art from you. Take care
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I would sugges that we don't dream in color because we don't actually think in color. If you pull up a memory from your past, chances are you don't see it in full color or you cannot correctly recall the color. When it comes to our dreams, color is rarely an important factor. Our thoughts aren't necessarily visual in nature so maybe our brain doesn't bother colorizing them.
    It may also be because there is not a lot of detail in dreams - if you can manage to "lucid dream" (where you are aware you are dreaming and in control) you can try to do something like read a newspaper - the writing is just moving patterns rather then being legible text.

    This may vary a lot between people. Some people have much stronger colour sense than others - they tend to also have a wider range of colour words. I know people who seem to have "perfect colour" like people have perfect pitch; they can colour match things from memory under arbitrary lighting conditions.
    Strange, I am moving on, but before I move on I want to thank you for your effort and willingness to share your information and knowledge with me. As you know we agreed and disagreed, I like it that way. I found it good that we could move past some of the obstacles we put in the way and still at times found a laughter, although I am not sure if you remember how to do that. Any way thanks, and take care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I've tried to lucid dream before, but it never works for me.
    The trick is to.. well, err, the best way I might describe it is to compare it to the art of flying, where you have to throw yourself at the ground and miss.

    It is virtually impossible to do this on purpose, it usually happens when you get distracted mid-fall and miss the ground without even noticing you have done it.

    The method that I had read involved sleeping for a bit, then waking up at a certain period, then exercising, then going back to sleep, etc. I figured it was worth a shot. Closest thing it ever got me was a terrifying sleep paralysis experience.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mother/father View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I've tried to lucid dream before, but it never works for me.

    I also need to pay better attention to the people argue with. I'm beginning to thing M/F isn't worth the effort. It always resorts to nonense from what I've seen.
    OK my friend I enjoyed some of the discussions we had, I am sorry I don't see it the same as you do, I think it was worth the effort to meet you online in the forum. Take care.
    It's not my intention to be mean, but some of the things you say just make no sense to me and when I ask for explanations, I just get comments like "I am the evidence" or "you do not see it". I don't know how to process that.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    I agree that sleep paralysis is a terrible experience. Had it once. Scary. Couldn’t move and felt pressure on my chest held down by an alien! Thankfully I knew it was just one of those cliché alien abduction dreams people report on the Discovery channel so snapped myself out of it fairly quick.

    But back to colours and dreams I read somewhere that deaf people see colours better than non-deaf people when dreaming. How they can gauge that I‘m not certain. Blind people from birth don’t see colour in their dreams but apparently they do dream of other perceptions like sound.

    I think if a person goes blind before their 5 then they never dream of colours. But don’t take my word for this as I only read about it on the internet somewhere! Probably wikianswers!
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