Notices
Results 1 to 35 of 35

Thread: worlds smallest reef aquarium

  1. #1 worlds smallest reef aquarium 
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    I like to study scleractinian corals and their relationships in small environs.

    at least they are unique~
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOsi...eature=related

    anyone study allelopathy in corals or benthic organisms in general?


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2 pics 
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    im thinking that scleractinian production in a palmtop environ belongs smack dab in the middle of a biology forum

    here's some sick pics to show you better detail


    http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27380

    http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27374

    http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27391

    http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27392

    http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=27379

    http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=31928


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    Looks great. Wish I could build something like that.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    here's somewhat of a challenge for our forum here, to identify these unknown reef organisms. I have appealed to the #1 invertebrate biologist on the web and we still can't pinpoint even a genus, the morphology of this progeny of the reef doesn't back up the requirement of symmetry for acoel flatworms so its possible this could be the first documented case of planular brooding and release in a pico reef! This animal swam with the undulations of a jellyfish, and in keeping these vases for nearly a decade combined Id never seen this type of motility in any other flatworm proper yet coral biologists haven't really seen it in corals either

    if you can identify these slides please help!
    B

    Also, a macro shot of the vase which shows the best detail of any pic taken let me know if anyone wants to build one of these


    http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=44826

    http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=44827
    in this shot below, it looks like a planarian in the lower left area. Appears round, but in the slides it clearly had 16 radiating projecta forming the perimeter of the cell membrane.
    http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=44856
    super clear shot of the aged reef bowl, diverse gallon assemblage of scleractinian corals:
    http://www.reefs.org/forums/download/file.php?id=44857
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    323
    Wow. 1 gallon.

    I've got a mini salt water in 10 gallons, which for home hobbyists was practically impossible 15 years ago - until we started putting in 'live' rock.

    But one gallon...woooo.

    Keep any Mantis Shrimp (aka 'Thumbsplitters') ?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Freshman Moontanman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    South Eastern North Carolina
    Posts
    15
    I have a real problem with this concept, I am a long time "coral reefer" I've been growing and propagating live coral for more than 30 years. The idea of a stable one gallon reef is very misleading. such a tank requires an enormous amount of upkeep, daily partial water changes is the least of it. A truly stable reef aquarium should be much larger than this.

    Yes a truly dedicated very experienced aquarist might pull off such a small tank for short periods of time but small does not equal easy. A 75 is a reasonable size, the smaller you get the less stable it becomes. If your aquarium doesn't last years then it is not stable, keeping a reef tank six months is not keeping a reef aquarium, it's putting coral in a tank and watching them slowly die.

    One gallon is simply not reasonable for anyone, a coral population as depicted would deplete trace elements in such a small amount of water several times a day. To show this as a reasonable attainment is like saying keeping a dolphin in a hot tub is a good idea.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    323
    I entirely agree.
    My 10 gallon is by NO means a reef tank!

    I have some soft corals a few hermits, 2 fish and that's IT.

    well - loads of algae, tiny sponges, feather duster worms, spag worms and that's about it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    Moontanman shall I link our previous discussion on the matter> lol


    Thats a perfectly acceptable response not everyone has to like pico reefs. what they do is show the durability of the reef and frankly having not kept one or attempted my sealing techniques is what keeps you from making an informed perception on the matter I got really tired showing moontanman in a previous forum how much scientific work has gone into the concept.

    Since the systems use inverts and corals, and these reproduce and flourish likely longer than your tank ever ran, whether or not it is ethical is on the continuum of anyone's-sized reef tank but the animal quality is where the review is worth some time.


    If anyone would like to point out how these animals appear to be suffering, feel free. Instable, neh you just aren't very inventive.

    I travel to alot of forums to promote the science and not everyone has to be accepting of it, but lets talk facts again if necessary. How is over three years in the bowl unstable? If the previous technobashing wasn't enough for ya moontanman why show up over here pretending your affront is new lol
    B
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    In one of your posts in the other thread you once mentioned my tanks weren't even reef tanks compared to the ocean. To follow up on that, neither is any reef tank. Mine are lacking fish only compared to a larger system, and in some ways I kind of like to tangle with ya in public because you lack manners anyway.


    If corals grow, and you do it in the cheapest system and the most reliable system then what is the problem. In your 100 gallon tanks, which don't look any better than the pics and vids I provide which are just smaller, I see fish whod rather be in the ocean. To each his own right? WHat if I use all aquacultured corals, grow them out then trade then to other aquarists, how does that not make my tanks more sustainable than yours using wild caught fish?
    B
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10 -- 
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    The whole reason for doing the work is because this is the simplest and most stable way, you cannot argue with the fact more than one person keeps these now, they are water changed once a week or once every two weeks, they are topped off twice a week, and keep every coral nearlyl that can fit inside as a tiny frag and one gets the joy of watching it grow and self-adhere to the reef or to a plug if it is for sale, just like a large tank, but on a small scale. Rather than decrying something that is long established as stable, itd be neat if you'd try one and report back in a month.
    Last edited by b429; November 14th, 2013 at 07:29 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Freshman Moontanman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    South Eastern North Carolina
    Posts
    15
    So you do this in a six inch by six inch cube? The pics that were posted showed a much bigger area, how big is your sump? How many gallons are really involved? Exactly which species of polyps are being kept, for how long? Most protean skimmers hold more than one gallon. Pictures are meaningless, let see some real documentation, You could take a picture of a dolphin in a hot tub, doesn't mean he was grown there or that he is going to live there long term.

    I am familiar with small reef tanks, I know exactly what it takes to grow coral and live rock and polyps, I've seen all the claims of "pico" reefs, I've seen a lot of them in person, sad little boxes of dead and dying corals, they are short term and have no relation what so ever to actually growing a real coral reef community.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,568
    Quote Originally Posted by Moontanman
    So you do this in a six inch by six inch cube? The pics that were posted showed a much bigger area, how big is your sump? How many gallons are really involved? Exactly which species of polyps are being kept, for how long? Most protean skimmers hold more than one gallon. Pictures are meaningless, let see some real documentation, You could take a picture of a dolphin in a hot tub, doesn't mean he was grown there or that he is going to live there long term.

    I am familiar with small reef tanks, I know exactly what it takes to grow coral and live rock and polyps, I've seen all the claims of "pico" reefs, I've seen a lot of them in person, sad little boxes of dead and dying corals, they are short term and have no relation what so ever to actually growing a real coral reef community.
    Do you have any sources that support the contention that tanks under a certain size will not function?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Freshman Moontanman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    South Eastern North Carolina
    Posts
    15
    The OP made the claim and the insinuation they do and that it's relatively easy and being done everywhere, I think he needs to defend his original assertion but I'd submit the photos already submitted as evidence to the contrary, they are obviously not of a six inch cube aquarium. The polyps shown would be difficult to fit in a 10 or 15 gallon aquarium not to mention actually grow them in a six inch cube. Coming to a forum that is not an aquarium orientated forum and making such claims is quite easy to do, defending them is another matter.

    It would be a lot like me going to an aquarium forum and claiming I have nuclear powered aquarium that runs on cold fusion.

    On top of the photos the assertion he has a 'reef" aquarium is in it's self misleading, has he ever seen a real reef? Or even a real reef aquarium? I could take a rock covered with polyps and set it in a small container, put bright lights on it and let the polyps come out and take pics all day long, it would still not a be reef aquarium or even a representation of a reef.

    I ask again for some documentation, list of animals and species of coral both soft and hard he is maintaining this way, details of how it is set up and exactly how many gallons of water he has, light wattage, how many gallons an hour he circulates, species of fish and invertebrates. His protein skimmer size and number of gallons an hour that go through it, how many and what types of reactors. Just to say I have a six inch cube of water full of polyps is not a reef or even an aquarium.

    BTW, I'm not saying it's impossible to keep a few polyps in a small contianer for a few months with nearly hurculean efforts but a six inch cube stable enough to be run with a water change every couple of weeks with no sump or surface water return or skimmers? Really? Real reef aquariums of several hundred gallons need more attention to be stable over long periods of time.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,568
    Quote Originally Posted by Moontanman
    The OP made the claim and the insinuation they do and that it's relatively easy and being done everywhere, I think he needs to defend his original assertion but I'd submit the photos already submitted as evidence to the contrary, they are obviously not of a six inch cube aquarium. The polyps shown would be difficult to fit in a 10 or 15 gallon aquarium not to mention actually grow them in a six inch cube. Coming to a forum that is not an aquarium orientated forum and making such claims is quite easy to do, defending them is another matter.

    It would be a lot like me going to an aquarium forum and claiming I have nuclear powered aquarium that runs on cold fusion.

    On top of the photos the assertion he has a 'reef" aquarium is in it's self misleading, has he ever seen a real reef? Or even a real reef aquarium? I could take a rock covered with polyps and set it in a small container, put bright lights on it and let the polyps come out and take pics all day long, it would still not a be reef aquarium or even a representation of a reef.

    I ask again for some documentation, list of animals and species of coral both soft and hard he is maintaining this way, details of how it is set up and exactly how many gallons of water he has, light wattage, how many gallons an hour he circulates, species of fish and invertebrates. His protein skimmer size and number of gallons an hour that go through it, how many and what types of reactors. Just to say I have a six inch cube of water full of polyps is not a reef or even an aquarium.
    Thats not what I was interested in finding out I want to know if there is any information on a minimum size for a saltwater aquarium.

    and btw

    Aquarium: a vivarium consisting of at least one transparent side in which water-dwelling plants or animals are kept.

    Coral reef:underwater structures made from calcium carbonate secreted by corals

    so these are at least aquaria and having live rock they have a small portion of a reef, they do qualify.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Freshman Moontanman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    South Eastern North Carolina
    Posts
    15
    No I do not think you will find definitive proof of minimum size, you are correct technically a six inch glass cube would be an aquarium as would a hot tube sized container with a glass side and a dolphin but I doubt anyone would consider it an aquarium. I could put a single moon coral polyp in a one inch glass cube and take pics of it but to say it was a living stable aquarium would be less than honest. The insinuation of saying a "reef aquarium" goes far beyond the technical definition of aquarium.

    The minimum size would actually depend on the organisms you were keeping as well, protists could be kept in a quite small container and viewed with a microscope.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,568
    Quote Originally Posted by Moontanman
    No I do not think you will find definitive proof of minimum size, you are correct technically a six inch glass cube would be an aquarium as would a hot tube sized container with a glass side and a dolphin but I doubt anyone would consider it an aquarium. I could put a single moon coral polyp in a one inch glass cube and take pics of it but to say it was a living stable aquarium would be less than honest. The insinuation of saying a "reef aquarium" goes far beyond the technical definition of aquarium.

    The minimum size would actually depend on the organisms you were keeping as well, protists could be kept in a quite small container and viewed with a microscope.
    Here is the definition of reef aquarium i was able to find:an aquarium that prominently displays live corals and other marine invertebrates as well as fish that play a role in maintaining the coral reef environment. A reef aquarium requires appropriately intense lighting, turbulent water movement, and more stable water chemistry than fish-only marine aquaria, and careful consideration is given to which reef animals are appropriate and compatible with each other

    How do you determine that the aquaria in discussion do not meet this definition? The only thing I do not see in the videos is the stable water chemistry because I dont have the ability to analyze water composition from pictures, and I doubt anyone can.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17 -- 
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    actually this is more civil than what I thought it would be so I'll respond again, with the exact same materials only 5 months later so a new group can see.

    These coral plugs do produce calcium carbonate mass that wasn't part of the original plug, that's the stone cold definition manifested and if I showed you my littany of proof pics in the matter Im thinking you'll just claim they were photoshopped like the last time, so no, pics won't help but I may post a few anyway.

    A key difference, and the only one regarding size restriction, is that to grow a montipora coral from a 1/4 inch frag into a two inch one is all the room I have, whereas a large reef can grow them to two feet or more. On the continuum of growth, they actually grow faster in my bowls than in a large tank (because of my feeding and dosing techniques) and any trained eye could see the calcification in the bowl in the form of coralline algaes which are almost never found in pico reefs, that alone is the only indicator needed.

    *Anywhere coralline algae will grow, so will stony corals and this is consistent in any size reef aquarium with proper light and feed. If you can coax coralline algae to grow, you have legitimized your reef as proof of long term sustenance and that is the indicator of water quality I use without actually testing any of it.






    I can feed this vase 10x the amount of frozen reef food a normal tank can handle, then change all the water an hour later, and every animal has been fed yet the bulk of unused feed has been stripped from the water. The surface area within the live rock and tank handle the proteinic degredation from that remaining feed, until the next water change.










    http://www.nanoreefblog.com/features...o-reef-biology
    Last edited by b429; November 14th, 2013 at 07:28 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    never confuse stability with room for error, most do. In these pico tanks if you forget and leave the heater unplugged one night in winter you could kill them whereas a large reef has holdover time but only in the scope of another day or two, not a huge gap of safety but obviously better.

    But the picos run for sure, always, without fail whereas large tanks you have all these filters, skimmers, dosers, testers and in six months most people give up on all the variables which is why the hobby only advances for the rich or the technically informed. A pico will reef will not suprise you one day by being totally dead unless you left a cord dangling somewhere or a child accidentally poisoned them...something traceable. If a crab should die, it will not kill the vase or the six inch cube, all tanks experience some unintended death and the picos handle that with their strong internal pH support listed in detail in that article. There are no sumps, if I say a gallon its only a gallon and lots of people do this now even with open topped tanks but this is harder because you do have to top them off.

    When you mentioned using up micronutrients twice a day they do, but there is a simple compound (C Balance) you add to correct this and it's the only non natural additive given to the system vs a cabinet of bottles for any larger of a reef. Interestingly, part of my invention is finding the timings that work. if you dose the reef in the morning before lights on all is well, if you dose even a lesser amount at 3 pm, after photosynthesis has sequestered all the carbonic acid from the system, the tank will instantly die with ph9 so again it is stable because it does nothing unpredictable, and in fact it will always work, but if you tweak any of the important methods there is often zero room for error. Choose your battle. put in $5,000 into a large tank, get your advice from 20 different people or spend $200, keep the same corals, get your advice from just one person and instantly build a tank that will last till 2015 as mine have been around that long.
    some of the people who do vases now choose to dose their change water and not the tank directly, just another variable to alter and experiment with.

    By running a pico with a two page instruction manual, you will be able to actually grow coral first, then learn about the process AS it unfolds. It will work everytime 100%, so this is more stable than any size larger reef because it's easy to control variables in a small tank, there is just zero room for careless human error but this is still the same errors that kill large reefs everyday. The salinity control and the feeding timing revolutionized reef keeping to be simpler, not more technical, I hope you'd see man
    thanks for being cool with your disagreements though maybe I can win you over this time. set up a vase, if it does anything other than what Ive said ill write a mea culpa article fo sho
    B
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Freshman Moontanman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    South Eastern North Carolina
    Posts
    15
    So answer some of my questions, how many gallons in your system total, what trace element additives do you use? What support equipment do you use? What species have you found that survive best under your conditions? What do you feed your animals, do you keep fish as well? Which species of fish? Any mobile invertebrates? How long on average do your tanks last? Where can I find the two page instruction manual?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    I write them on the fly for people who request and are intending to set one up, see youtube comments. Most people who request them do not turn right around and debate them without actually trying it as I've said first lol. let this, and the other post from last summer serve as yours


    that article listed nearly everything you just asked for but here's a rundown again

    the vase and the half gallon reef get the same treatment, there's just a water volume reduction of 50%. The fact the micro cube has a housed plant system provides the additional support for oxygenation, CO2 and N binding etc.

    vase- 1 gallon
    cube-half gallon

    I change water about twice a week now because these are the turbo versions of what pico reefs can do. newer setups only need it weekly or bi weekly, these are extremely packed compared to what most will do with them.

    They are fed a huge amount of shaved mysis shrimp and cyclopeeze just before these 100% water changes. big water changes do not hurt corals, they hurt some species of sponge but not the ones that grow naturally in my tanks as benthic fauna.

    dosing/ion support for both:

    monday add 1/4 capfull of c balance part a at 7 am
    tuesday part b same timing
    wed skip or do a light feeding/spot feed if I choose
    thurs part a
    fri part b
    sat skip
    sun water change.
    now that my reefs are packed I also do the change on wednesdays, there are over 100 coral frags growing in just a gallon and each water change is 3 mins so I don't mind. I just siphon the water right out the feeding hole into my sink and fill it all back up through that same 1/2 inch hole!

    Of all the corals I've tried, nearly every common genus for sale, a recent gonipora addition (1/4 inch frag) nettled some of the other corals and I could tell it would kill them via retrograde allelopathy, so goni and litphyton seem to be excluded totally from pico reef use although I wouldn't be surpised to find someone else having success with them.

    The cool thing is you can try this by setting up one of these tanks, with your knowledge and the pics/writeups ive done you should have no trouble at all
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    equipment:


    vase-
    coralife mini aqualight 9 watts x2 bulbs+ 1 galaxy light which is 13 watts 50/50 bulb
    airpump, nothing else. no water pumps, the article lists this in detail and shows a guy in Pennsylvania who is replicating this from afar while I hang out with mike leach here in texas lol his is a better design because of the drilling which I have to pay someone to do while he's a fabricator deluxe!

    cube:
    a 1/2 gallon betta tank. two galaxy lights in the hood, one up front for 72 watts per gallon total. Must be fanned, if the fan turns off the system dies, again not unlike many large tanks. this tank is even less forgiving than a vase, but it grows SPS corals into little tabletops at a half gallon total unsumped volume
    It uses a minijet 404 water pump and both tanks use standard preset heaters from tetra @ 78 degrees

    when people are sure these are sumped, Im thinking they didn't watch the video where I was driving it in my car and you could see the tank was full because the water line is leaning while I was stopped at a light driving with my knee photographing the tank lol it was a quiet street.

    Sump= in aquarium circles, a separate body of water (separate aquarium) attached to a main display via piping or tubing that:
    -gives room to use mechanical devices aka skimmers
    -adds extra water volume which is a key point for moontanman in his concern, then the tiny displays I show would actually be plumbed to large systems hidden somewhere else, nullifying what I've wrote about the unique chemistry of unplumbed pico reefs
    -sumps can be an area where dosers are added so they don't directly touch corals before going into solution. Sumps are a great technique, they just aren't the only way hence the point of my rantings lol

    when that doesn't work I'll link you to a guy from our local reef club who came over last wed to see the vase, I picked it up for him fully running to show it wasn't sumped.

    On page 1 my request for identification is probably the main reason for actually setting one of these up. After years and years I still get new animals I did not buy, who are continually blooming and reseeding cyclicly in the tank just as one would expect a *reef* to do. In freshwater, you don't get this as diverse as you do when using live rock. To me that is the definition of a reef tank further than what's already been posted, you get to have all the unimaginable life the larger tanks hold only now you can have it as a complete beginner and with complete assurance it will work as stated. I asked the #1 reef invertebrate biologist on the internet about those planulae/acoels, and he wasn't sure. Trust me, if this tank suffered legitimacy he'd have called me out on it in 2001 when we first started chatting about it

    http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic107228-11-1.aspx

    If a one gallon reef can produce an animal that CANNOT be accurately identified, Id add that to the growing list of great reasons to experiment, and further, pico reef design. You could do the same in a big reef but you'd never see this animal nor be able to catch it like I did, and it will cost you thousands of bucks and take years and years to master. I thought an opposite approach would serve the aquarist masses much better.

    this is one of about 2,000+ threads Ive posted with pics. this is helpful because of the extensive q and a sessions and because its in a forum where about 150 people keep micro picos successfully with myriad approaches. some are sumped, some are smaller than my tanks without sumps. I have to travel around to the boards to spread the word, and debate/inform as needed, because new inventions require that type of investment along with the original work.

    http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/inde...owtopic=210743

    here are reasons not to keep a small reef, accurately stated, as I don't want to preach they are for everyone. they are just for people who wanted to try a reef but thought they couldn't or for professionals who want a simpler way. Reasons not to try a pico:
    -you want fish
    -you want a tank that is not easily knocked over by an errant nerf ball
    -you want large corals
    -you love the technicality and automation large reefs provide, or the size. large reefs are stunning
    -are willing to trade off predictability in running for room for error. Just google "I have algae in my reef" and you'll see what I mean by technicality and variability, there are sixty opinions + on why this happens and if it were easily pinpointed no one would have a problem. Pico reefs never develop algae when ran my way, so you won't have that problem, but dont forget to plug in the heater lol
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22 -- 
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    Even though marine aquarium science husbandry/experimentation ranges back into the 1960's, such as Leng Sy's noted approach, all the formal documentation in modern history is summed up here and it has changed a little since then. Any professional reef aquarist will tell you to get information here, but specifics for micro reefs were lacking in these manuals in fact they advise against them
    mostly

    Julian Sprung always impressed me because his writings always left room for the advancement of nano reef aquaria and he also accurately predicted their explosion in popularity back into the 90's, he was a visionary in my opinion. Some of the other authors can be quoted as recently as a couple years ago writing in their blogs that micro marine tanks are basically a waste of time and are very limited and unstable, basically verbatim your stance MM.

    1. Martin A. Moe Jr., The Marine Aquarium Handbook, 1992
    2. Julian Spring and J. Charles Delbeek, The Reef Aquarium - Volumes One and Two, 1994, 1997
    3. Helmut Debelius and Hans A. Baensch, Marine Atlas, 1994
    4. Dr. P.V. Loiselle and Hans A. Baensch, Marine Aquarist Manual, 1991
    5. Albert J. Theil, Advanced Reef Keeping, Aardvark Press, 1989
    6. John H. Tullock, The Reef Tank Owner's Manual, Aardvark Press, 1992
    7. Martin A. Moe Jr., Marine Aquarium Reference, Systems and Invertebrates, 1992

    How much did the biology of genetics change just from '96 till now? It only follows marine biology should make new astounding changes along the same regards. this offers no proof of my models, it just sets the stage and paints a picture about basic evolution, isn't everything that's neat getting smaller nowadays?

    here's what I think the summary of contemporary reef tanks should be, for 2010 and beyond

    You can do what everyone has deemed impossible or impractical if you keep an open mind and an endless struggle for biological success. Pursue an ethical boundary for your animals and set that by the feedback they give you. If you know how to network, innovate and inspire, how to meld old information on paper and the new on a computer screen, you can make a marine aquarium that does anything you want it to do. Stop getting your ideas of limitations from someone else's fifteen year old work and do your own, what you stumble upon just may change a few things. In the upcoming years I expect to see years-old aquariums of astonishing sizes, both incredibly large and incredibly small.
    Brandon M March 23 2010
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    Quote Originally Posted by Moontanman
    The insinuation of saying a "reef aquarium" goes far beyond the technical definition of aquarium.
    There is a technical definition of aquarium? Other than this:
    An aquarium (plural aquariums or aquaria) is a vivarium consisting of at least one transparent side in which water-dwelling plants or animals are kept.
    Please enlighten us what this definition might be. Because if it is just the definition above then the reef aquarium is an aquarium.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Forum Freshman Moontanman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    South Eastern North Carolina
    Posts
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Moontanman
    The insinuation of saying a "reef aquarium" goes far beyond the technical definition of aquarium.
    There is a technical definition of aquarium? Other than this:
    An aquarium (plural aquariums or aquaria) is a vivarium consisting of at least one transparent side in which water-dwelling plants or animals are kept.
    Please enlighten us what this definition might be. Because if it is just the definition above then the reef aquarium is an aquarium.
    A reef aquarium is indeed an aquarium but an aquarium is not necessarily a Reef aquarium, Be that as it may, evidently I am mistaken and need to retire and die or maybe just stay with my swamp bonsai in my swamp aquariums . I apologize, see the following link.

    http://www.nanoreefblog.com/features...o-reef-biology
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    moontanman you are funny that's the link i posted for you twenty clicks ago. ya'll did a good job debating in the thread and believe me you aren't the only one with some hesitancy to me recommending small reef aquariums like I do. at least we all left some type behind to stake our claims on the cause, good activity thanks for posting all.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Freshman Moontanman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    South Eastern North Carolina
    Posts
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by b429
    moontanman you are funny that's the link i posted for you twenty clicks ago. ya'll did a good job debating in the thread and believe me you aren't the only one with some hesitancy to me recommending small reef aquariums like I do. at least we all left some type behind to stake our claims on the cause, good activity thanks for posting all.
    That honestly did not come up when I visited your links, I would still like to point out that I doubt most people will be successful doing what you have done and will use this as an excuse to try it and when they fail even more coral will die and our hobby will get another black eye.

    At the very least I think it should be asserted that only captive propagated coral should ever be used this way.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    fair enough, agreed about the mariculturing only. Lets also add since its an ethics argument that no one should be using wild caught fish either, in any size tank right? So you can apologize for the ones you've used/killed and we can move on and you can only use aquacultured fish which limits you to basically gobies, banggai's and clowns from here on out. I would hope you'd take an equally firm stance on the collection of wild caught fish, which is still 95% of the marine aquarium hobby. Please mention again I don't use em! lol

    its very possible that no one will be able to replicate the setup successfully, skeptics prevent snake oil salesmen so don't lose your touch. we can just let time tell that with those who are attempting and we'll watch their posts to see if it's stable. Good debate
    B
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Forum Freshman Moontanman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    South Eastern North Carolina
    Posts
    15
    Of course in the years of my aquarium keeping I've killed many fishes, I've also enticed a great many fish to reproduce as well as corals and other invertebrates. it does not even out but to say harvesting fish from the wild is worse than me catching fish in the surf to take home and eat is not supportable.

    Any fish or other animal removed from the wild is ecologically dead, no matter how long it lives in captivity it is dead as far as the ecology you removed it from is concerned. Most reefs are sustainable for harvest since far more fish are produced than homes are available on the reef. Most fish larvae die to due to simple lack of space on the reef.

    Coral harvesting has been particularly hard on coral reefs due to destruction of reefs by simply hacking off pieces. Contrary to popular thought far more coral is removed for ornamental purposes than for aquaria but many orders of magnitude more coral is removed for use as limestone for building roads and even homes in tropical countries bordering reefs.

    I think we should try to use captive produced coral for more than just 'save the reef' reasons. Captive coral are far easier to keep than wild caught, the reasons are debatable but I think it's due to epigenes being expressed in coral that has gone through many "generations" of propagation and only the polyps best suited for captivity survive, even the same species collected on the reef survive much more poorly than a captive propagated coral.

    this effect is seen more and more as coral is generally grown and fragged and traded among hobbyists. so yes a captive propagated coral should always be used when possible and allow the experts to collect and propagate corals for the first few generations.

    I have been in the coral growing game for more than 3 decades, I used metal halides and live rock 35 years ago when light was thought to be a terrible idea by the experts and the idea of actually putting something in your marine aquarium that contained unknown organisms was madness! so I understand the need and urge to experiment with new ideas.

    I also know that the reef hobby was almost outlawed due to people treating the animals as though they were pretty rocks being collected. huge numbers of animals were collected using poisons and large stretches of reef were destroyed by people who caught fish with the idea that only numbers were important. For many fish even today the one fish you buy is representative of dozens even hundreds of fish that died between the collector and the pet shop. some fish are simply not capable of living in captivity or require a diet of unobtainium to live.

    I think we as hobbyists owe it to both the fish and the environment to not buy these fish and to make sure new people in the hobby know that fish like Moorish idols simply do not live and that almost all butterfly fish are not suitable to aquariums of any size. Other fish are simply too large as adults to be kept or the adult version is a plain ugly fish you are stuck with because no one else wants it.

    unless we police ourselves as a group the government will step I and do it for us and they usually just ban everything instead of finding out what is good and what is bad.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    agreed, well said man. there is a non native speciation bill getting worked right now that would ban 80% of the corals I (we all) use, which is good and really bad. its bad because it does not differentiate between maricultured vs wild caught, so all our hard farming work may be for nothing!! But then again the previous 30 years have been so hard on natural reefs, we took too long to do it this way. Its a tough call, but it won't be retroactive (we can keep what we have) so if it passes there will be effects on several species commonly kept as pets, not just for marine animals. This is a really really big deal to the scientific and layman communities who study or keep animals as pets.
    B
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    323
    WOW moontan I'm actually sorta glad your live rock from the 70's wasn't known in the aquarium public - we would have probably done even more damage to reefs if it were known!

    I worked at a bad aquarium shop, and 15 years ago, we thought you had to keep a saltwater tank antiseptic like a hospital! No frikkin' wonder the fish died so soon!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31 2011 updates 
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    aa1.jpg

    aa2.jpg

    Just wanted to stop by and show updates for the system. Pro or con, the vase is undeniably healthy and its ability to sustain mixed coral habitats has not been demonstrated before in literature you can find regarding hyperconcentration studies of mixed coral ecosystems.

    How many ~80 month old reef tanks do you know and what size are they? none of them are a gallon of water, its unique science, so here's an update.

    The point is to test allelopathy on a long term basis in a system that concentrates (and mutes) terpenoid and nematocyst physicality...the trademark of cnidarian vital space competition

    this video was taken a couple weeks ago, some of the corals have overtaken others and some have stopped the war mechanism and co existed touching and intertwined in ways they do not commonly associate in nature.

    Certain methods to control export and waste penetration into the sandbed model nutrient pathways found in much larger systems, and give this micro ecosystem a seemingly indefinite life span barring hardware failures...usually, the tiny pico reefs die of algae infestation by month 5.

    Hydrogen peroxide is an extremely important part of the regimen for this tank, its used in a manner not common to marine science as well. Peroxide and h202 byproducts are an integral part of certain metabolism systems in marine biology and microbiology, so using over the counter peroxide to control algae growth is a new technique tested on the reefbowl and being up-scaled to hoards of nano reefs in the online world that communicate via online forums

    because of pico reefs, we are finding better methods to run the conventional tanks!

    Here's the vid, nice to see you all again. B

    Reefbowl Update 2011 - YouTube

    w try to link more pics of the aged system to compare to the old ones
    Last edited by b429; August 30th, 2011 at 02:35 PM. Reason: add pics
    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    Just updating on the reefbowl, as you can tell from the spirited discussion above, I'm rather serious about designing long term micro ecosystems and every week the same maintenance is repeated over and over inside the reefbowl ~


    This bowl will outlive most tanks 100x its size. It will eventually fill up with 16 kinds of coral and then have to be broken open to transplant them into larger tanks

    This is a model for growing/regenerating diseased and near extinct coral on a massive and attainable scale for natural replenishment hopefully

    Stony corals literally cement the entire bowl together.

    We are seeing acroporid corals trapping air bubbles permanently in the skeleton, which gives us possibilities of locating similar pockets of ancient gas inside living colonies for analysis (theory)

    We are seeing growth rings develop visible in the glass to account for age verification in natural sps coral colonies

    35% peroxide use is an integral part of this reef aquarium, in the last two years we have developed powerful techniques for its use in aquaria, thats just another new topic of debate to replace the old ones. Regardless of controversy, anyone doubt I'll be posting updates in 2016?




    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8zMW...?v=R237MB2jvb8


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R237M...02WKXWIWePdt9A
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,568
    What is your empirical evidence for the assertion of a longer lifespan then that of a larger tank?

    Growth rings and gas pockets are already used in paleontology for multiple analysis.

    (Also its considered impolite to necro a thread over a year old)
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34  
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    Actually it's pertinent to use this thread as long as the subject is still alive. It calls up the challenge to the subject with my updates and it simply continues the original content. It keeps life span documentation in one place.

    This reef bowl is the reference material for stony coral pico reefs, there are no earlier ones. Good to keep the material all in one place and its interesting to see if older assertions made are holding true. New threads break up the material.


    Be specific in your challenge, Im not talking about drill core samples I'm referring to living structures that capture and hold the gas and how this has been modeled in a tiny vase for the first time even though marine tanks have been kept for years. The actual deposition has never, never been captured on film or picture. My angle was that the vase actually shows deposition inside the skeleton of living coral skeleton, and you can't find pictures of that anywhere in print or on the Internet (quite a fun little side challenge right there) if you can find them, please post.


    There is no empirical evidence on lifespan, its an open/fun challenge for others here to post up counter proof of an older gallon reef this well documented and I was making an interesting comparison in irony with the statement. These are supposed to be short lived per the earlier challenges.

    In spending ten years on reef Web forums I simply see it outliving most comparatively larger setups that's all. Thanks for posting I enjoy science debates if there are any retorts please post Thanks for stopping in!
    Last edited by b429; November 15th, 2013 at 08:06 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Forum Freshman b429's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    21
    Additionally, this little study above absolutely smashed previously held notions in marine biology regarding coral allelopathy, habituation had not been studied across this many genera in this type of environ. This unfolded in the years of online threads with the popular authors and coral researchers like Eric Borneman etc, mostly on reefcentral. Its helpful to see as the years go by whether or not this condition sustains or changes, all fun stuff in the realm of micro marine biology and habitat studies. It was previously, and incorrectly assumed that allelopathy was fixed and not able to be downregulated, for example. this reef shows it fully muted across several genera, along with actual tolerance of physical touching being accepted as well. space competition has been adapted for millenia in corals, its amazing they simply stopped here for my amusement.
    Last edited by b429; November 15th, 2013 at 08:11 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •