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  1. #1 how ??? 
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    how can life form in water ?... how can life 'appear' in water if there was no life before ?


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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    It normally doesn't. It took a very special set of circumstances, spread out over millions of years for the first life to develop. The process, known as abiogenesis, is still nowhere near fully understood, yet we have many fascinating insights as to the possibilities.

    The early Earth was rich in organic chemicals: some brought in by comets, some formed in situ. Over time the complexity of these molecules increased; autocatalytic actions were begun; the complexity grew further; miniature chemical ecosystems were established. Eventually something akin to a simple cell emerged, and from then on the rules of evolution kicked in.


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    but I read in a book that ONLY DNA can produce DNA... that life can't emerge from something non-living... that every living thing comes into existence from parents...
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    The book was wrong.
    The most popular view today is that the first organisms used RNA, not DNA as the carrier of genetic information. [This is often referred to by the phrase RNA world.]
    Other theories include one that believes the first genes were actually structures within clay minerals, that were then replaced by DNA or RNA.
    Certainly, as I noted earlier, we do not know exactly how these events occured, but researchers are gradually piecing the puzzle together. Eventually, in ten years, or fifty, or on hundred and fifty, we will be able to make a very accurate estimate of how life began. [Assuming we can ever agree on exactly what life is. The very first forms would have been so simple that today's simple organisms are highly complex by comparison.
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    Another piece of the puzzle are certain minerals whcih have been found to be "aminoacidophiles", that is, that aminoacids tend to stick into little porus on the surface of this minerals. This could epxlain how could aminoacids come together in a big wide aminoacids soup, and also it helps to give a clue on how the first cellular membranes were formed. A "half-bubble" of hidrocarbon could had protected aminoacids into porus of minerals like a miniature version of a "dome" over a Moon colony... then if such "bubbles" floated with the aminoacids inside...

    It's a big big complicated puzzle and we still don't know what the picture will look like, yet we can do well-informed guesses already. 8)
    “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” -Charles Darwin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer
    It's a big big complicated puzzle and we still don't know what the picture will look like, yet we can do well-informed guesses already. 8)
    is that what this is all about ??... "well-informed guesses" ??... please excuse me but I find it really hard to believe something based on guesses
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    Quote Originally Posted by F (i L i) P
    but I read in a book that ONLY DNA can produce DNA... that life can't emerge from something non-living... that every living thing comes into existence from parents...

    Not necessarily- retroviruses produce DNA from RNA. The "original soup" might also have contained amino acids- go figure out what first started replicating itself...
    When ignorance reigns, people die!
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    Quote Originally Posted by F (i L i) P
    is that what this is all about ??... "well-informed guesses" ??... please excuse me but I find it really hard to believe something based on guesses
    I'll get to work on a time machine then so we can travel back in time and videotape the process of DNA forming, to live up your standards. That's basically what you're expecting right?
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F (i L i) P
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer
    It's a big big complicated puzzle and we still don't know what the picture will look like, yet we can do well-informed guesses already. 8)
    is that what this is all about ??... "well-informed guesses" ??... please excuse me but I find it really hard to believe something based on guesses
    But you are, of course, free to believe anything you want. These kind people are not selling you anything but providing you with the ideas of people who have spent considerably more time thinking about your question than you have and applying their expertise in biology and chemistry.

    But while they are point out some of the chemical details of the puzzle there is another approach to the question which considers the patterns of development in the whole process. It is no less conjecture than what these guys have been explaining (and maybe even more so) but that is unavoidable in answering a historical question. Check out the book "The Self Organizing Universe" by Eric Jantsch.

    Historical questions can only be answered by speculation because the only evidence is indirect. The farther in the past or the more detail you require, the more speculation must play a role. Any questions about religious leaders or the events surrounding them are plagued by the same uncertainty and anything we say about them is speculation. What kind of person was Jesus of Nazareth really? Did he really say the things that people say he did? Objectively, all we can say about him is really just speculation. However, again, you can choose to believe whatever you want.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    the book you read, it was also based on guesses.
    it can see where you are coming form , i asked a questio like this here before, and i got the same rna answer. truth is we don't know!

    best thing, try figure it out, prove it, and then you'll have an answer.
    Stumble on through life.
    Feel free to correct any false information, which unknown to me, may be included in my posts. (also - let this be a disclaimer)
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    Quote Originally Posted by F (i L i) P
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer
    It's a big big complicated puzzle and we still don't know what the picture will look like, yet we can do well-informed guesses already. 8)
    is that what this is all about ??... "well-informed guesses" ??... please excuse me but I find it really hard to believe something based on guesses
    Maybe you're a bit less familair to English than me; in English, there is a difference between a "informed guess" and a "guess". an instance may be helpful here:

    Let's say you have to go search your brother.

    First, you go to his bedroom and he isn't there -that was a guess.

    Anyway, you know it's tuesday and on tuesday your brother uses to go to the cinema. There are several theaters in your city, but you know that your brother likes sci-fi and there's only one theater playing a sci-fi film, so you go to the theater playing a sci-fi film on tuesday and you get to find your brother there. That was a "informed guess".

    So, a "informed guess" is not just a "guess". It is based in as much information as we have and can gather. We can't take a planet, fill it with chemicals and wait 500 milion years while we film if life starts or not. We walk a stairway going from elementary chemicals to elementary life, and disclose as many steps of the stairway as we can, in the hope that some day the guys going from down up and the guys going from up down will meet each other and we'll be able to tell how elementary chemicals could become life.
    “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” -Charles Darwin
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Lucifer, that is a good explanation. Part of the problem in getting that idea across is that guess has a very definite meaning in popular use. Adding a qualifier like informed, helps redefine the meaning, but often, in the back of the mind of the listener, they are only focusing on the word guess and what it means to them.
    I am not sure who first used the word guess in this thread, but I recall thinking when I read it that it would be misunderstood. I prefer to use the word estimate. Based upon what we know so far we can estimate what may have happened at the dawn of life. We are making a reasoned deduction of possibilities.
    Of course if I was being asked to comment on something I would probably not say "my reasoned deduction of possibilities leads me to believe", I should likely say "my best guess is..", when it wouldn't be a guess at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino
    I'll get to work on a time machine then so we can travel back in time and videotape the process of DNA forming, to live up your standards. That's basically what you're expecting right?
    but your time machine might never work... so I'm gonna have to stick with my beliefs...

    what I'm saying is that I find the univesre and all life in a very very very very organized situation, full of harmony and ballance... explosions create chaos and disorder... so how can an explosion (Big-Bang) be the cause of such a fantastic universe? how can such a complex thing such as life, so complex that we can't even expalin it and don't think we ever will, be created by a mixture of chemicals that once took part in that explosion?... yes... millions and millions of years may have passed from the start of the universe and many chemicals may have mixed in very different proportions and manners but still.... i think it is way too complex to be the result of such elementary things...



    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer
    Let's say you have to go search your brother.

    First, you go to his bedroom and he isn't there -that was a guess.

    Anyway, you know it's tuesday and on tuesday your brother uses to go to the cinema. There are several theaters in your city, but you know that your brother likes sci-fi and there's only one theater playing a sci-fi film, so you go to the theater playing a sci-fi film on tuesday and you get to find your brother there. That was a "informed guess".
    But my brother could be caught up in an unexpected problem he had to take care of tuesday.... so even if it is an informed-guess, even if we have some information about it, it is still a guess, and can be right as it can be wrong


    Quote Originally Posted by goodgod3rd
    best thing, try figure it out, prove it, and then you'll have an answer.
    oh...thanx.. I think i'll do that in the next 5 minutes :P
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by F (i L i) P
    explosions create chaos and disorder...
    Remember that chaos isn't the same as disorder... chaos implies a stochastic behaviour of something, which can conduct to something harmonious and balanced.



    Quote Originally Posted by F (i L i) P
    so I'm gonna have to stick with my beliefs...
    I'm curious Filip... what's your explanation on the "how" issue?
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  16. #15  
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    indeed,
    how can an explosion (Big-Bang) be the cause of such a fantastic universe?
    well, like said above, we don't know for sure, but there are lots of explinations (including yours). its up to you to decide which one you want to belive? what do you belive?

    sop far all you have said is that "
    I read in a book that ONLY DNA can produce DNA... that life can't emerge from something non-living... that every living thing comes into existence from parents...
    " you have told us what you dont belive. what do you think is right?
    Stumble on through life.
    Feel free to correct any false information, which unknown to me, may be included in my posts. (also - let this be a disclaimer)
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    what I believe is bassed on what the Bible sais... I believe that GOD created all life, and only He can create it... so you can see why I'm not trusting the "life came on it's own" theory... the WAY the God created life isn't known... The Bible just sais "HE created..." this, that ... but the Bible does tell me how man was created by God... so that's why for me evolution is out of the question... so my short answer for "how?' is "God"...
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  18. #17  
    Forum Junior Cuete's Avatar
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    God is the 'who'...
    Big bang and evolution are the 'how'.

    There's no conflict there my friend. Both Science and Religion can get along pretty well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuete
    God is the 'who'...
    Big bang and evolution are the 'how'.

    There's no conflict there my friend. Both Science and Religion can get along pretty well.
    That's exactly what the Roman, Catholic, Apostholic, Church says.

    "You scientists tell us how, when and where, and we'll tell you who an why" :wink:
    “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” -Charles Darwin
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuete
    God is the 'who'...
    Big bang and evolution are the 'how'.

    There's no conflict there my friend. Both Science and Religion can get along pretty well.
    That's exactly what the Roman, Catholic, Apostholic, Church says.

    "You scientists tell us how, when and where, and we'll tell you who an why" :wink:
    yeah... science and religion : no problem,
    but sometimes ... scientist and religious man : big misunderstanding
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F (i L i) P
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuete
    God is the 'who'...
    Big bang and evolution are the 'how'.

    There's no conflict there my friend. Both Science and Religion can get along pretty well.
    That's exactly what the Roman, Catholic, Apostholic, Church says.

    "You scientists tell us how, when and where, and we'll tell you who an why" :wink:
    yeah... science and religion : no problem,
    but sometimes ... scientist and religious man : big misunderstanding
    It is not quite enough to simply say that evolution is how, for this implies a Deist view of God which is in conflict with the Bible. The Bible is quite clear in portraying God as a person who is always intimately involved with the lives of human kind. I guess this is why the fundamentalist Christians have put forward this idea of intellegent design in opposition to evolution. But I think this is a mistake for I don't see that intellegent design supports the idea of a personal God, but that it goes quite well with the Deist concept of God who just sets it all up at the beginning to happen as he has forseen. In fact I think that in the face of the evidence for evolution that this is the only kind of God that remains reasonable if you believe in intellegent design.

    But there is another possibility. Forget about intellegent design and realize that the development of living things depends upon their environment. Thus there no contradiction between the fact that tomatoes grow by themselves and that the tomatoes only grow because of the farmers who grow them. Forget about the idea of God as a watchmaker creating something designed and dead, and consider God as a farmer or a shepherd who raises up living things according to his desire. Then and only then do we have a vision of God which is consistent with the idea of God as a person with an intimate relationship with his creations.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    The Bible is quite clear in portraying God as a person who is always intimately involved with the lives of human kind. I guess this is why the fundamentalist Christians have put forward this idea of intellegent design in opposition to evolution.
    Note that this is the view of the fundamentalist christians. For the Roman Catholic Church there's no conflict with Science (except for some ethical issues), and God isn't involved in every human action.

    God makes the rules, and nature just follows its own path... that's free will ¿remember?
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