Notices
Results 1 to 65 of 65

Thread: Are humans also classified as animals?

  1. #1 Are humans also classified as animals? 
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    57
    Doing a scholarship about animal suffering and was wondering if humans are animals.. if so maybe I could use humans as an example for this competition?


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Freshman Molecular's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    51
    Yes humans are animals.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    603
    Why wouldn't humans be animals?

    People aren't above other living things just because we were clever enough to invent religion (the very thing that tells us we are better- how anthrocentric are we?!)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Cardiff, Wales
    Posts
    5,805
    while it is an undeniable biological fact that humans are animals, when it comes to ethical questions such as suffering it becomes far less clear that human ethics can be applied to (all) animals
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,401
    Or, to put it another way, humans may be animals, but that does not mean animals are humans.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    The average human is actually a collection of organisms from all 6 (or 5/4) kingdoms.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Freshman Molecular's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    The average human is actually a collection of organisms from all 6 (or 5/4) kingdoms.
    That sounds interesting

    Would you mind expanding with an example for each?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    As from an ethical standpoint, it is not important that humans are animals.

    What you want to ask is are animals moral persons. Or as Kant would put it, moral agents. Can an animal act unethically? Can an animal be treated unethically?

    What makes human beings moral persons.

    Jeremy Singer's philosophy may help you, he wrote an entire book called Animal Liberation in which he argues in favor of animal rights. Singer's point of view is that pleasure is good, pain is bad. Animals feel pleasure and pain, so animals can be wronged by inducing pain.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Cardiff, Wales
    Posts
    5,805
    the difference between humans and the rest of the animals is that humans usually have recourse to the lawcourts to defend their rights when they are infringed - the other animals usually don't have this option
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    603
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt
    Or, to put it another way, humans may be animals, but that does not mean animals are humans.

    cats are people too!

    Actually, my cat has had almost no contact with other cats and when he does he doesn't get along with them when they do normal cat things. I know it's commonplace to anthropomorphize your animals, but when a cat reacts more favorably to bad human behaviours (like harassing him for fun :P) than he does to a social cat behaviour, like cleaning, doesn't that say something?

    Now the next step is getting him to stand on two legs and wear a fez- then I'll really be rolling in money!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    Quote Originally Posted by Molecular
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    The average human is actually a collection of organisms from all 6 (or 5/4) kingdoms.
    That sounds interesting

    Would you mind expanding with an example for each?
    yes.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Cardiff, Wales
    Posts
    5,805
    wikipedia is your friend

    on the other hand, the correct answer is that things are always a little more complicated than they appear at first : tree of life
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    It's kind of an interesting concept though that they are still fighting on how many kingdoms there actually are, and that currently there is a difference between British and American textbooks.


    I'm afraid i can only give an answer to the question two posts ago when the person requesting information makes a choice on the number of Kingdoms he prefers.

    I think it would be a nice homework assignment for all of us 'thescienceforumers' to find examples then.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Freshman Molecular's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    It's kind of an interesting concept though that they are still fighting on how many kingdoms there actually are, and that currently there is a difference between British and American textbooks.


    I'm afraid i can only give an answer to the question two posts ago when the person requesting information makes a choice on the number of Kingdoms he prefers.

    I think it would be a nice homework assignment for all of us 'thescienceforumers' to find examples then.
    OK I will start :P

    1. Eukaryotes - Humans (Easy one)
    2. Prokaryotes - Mitochondria which are the power stations of our cells providing us with oxidative phosphorylation.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Masters Degree Numsgil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    708
    You can't count mitochondria, since they're not autonomous.

    But you can count the plethora of species that live in the colon and help us digest

    Not sure about plants or fungi. At least not in a "normal healthy" person living in the industrialized world.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    Prokaryotes: E coli
    Eukaryotes: tapeworm.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Masters Degree Numsgil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    708
    Tapeworm is a rare parasite. It is not part of a healthy functioning human.

    E Coli and other bacteria in the gut, on the other hand, are important for bowel regulation.

    I think we should limit ourselves to only symbiotic and commensal relationships.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,401
    On the subject of humans being animals, here is a story.

    Alfred, a psyhciatrist, was travelling by train and fell into conversation with another passenger. This passenger revealed that his sister thought she was a hen.
    Alfred listened to the details then declared - "You know I believe with modern psychiatric techniques we can cure your sister."
    The other passenger looked aghast. "Cure her! Goodness me no. We don't want to cure her."
    "Why ever not?" asked Alfred.
    "We need the eggs."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    Quote Originally Posted by Numsgil
    Tapeworm is a rare parasite. It is not part of a healthy functioning human.

    E Coli and other bacteria in the gut, on the other hand, are important for bowel regulation.

    I think we should limit ourselves to only symbiotic and commensal relationships.
    I honestly don't care about what you think. You seem to be blinded by the idea that the living conditions in a modern first world country reflects on the basic state of the average human being.

    In fact in many parts of the world helminthic parasitism is endemic. And that is a fact.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Anyway pinworms are a common eukaryotic parasite in developed countries, they sometimes cause appendicitis, but usually are asymptomatic. Toxoplasma as well.

    You also have a few species of yeast living on you.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Masters Degree Numsgil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    708
    So then we're just missing some plants (I'm assuming there's probably some archea in the gut).

    I honestly don't care about what you think. You seem to be blinded by the idea that the living conditions in a modern first world country reflects on the basic state of the average human being.
    No need to be rude. I was simply saying that a parasite like a tapeworm is waaay to symptomatic. You need something more in the commensal range. Something where if an alien species familiar with Earth abducted some humans for a zoo, they wouldn't remove it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Forum Freshman Molecular's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by Numsgil
    You can't count mitochondria, since they're not autonomous.

    But you can count the plethora of species that live in the colon and help us digest

    Not sure about plants or fungi. At least not in a "normal healthy" person living in the industrialized world.
    Would you mind expanding why you can't count them? Mitochondria are controlled by outside forces such as exercise so why can they not be included? They have their own DNA too.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by Molecular
    Quote Originally Posted by Numsgil
    You can't count mitochondria, since they're not autonomous.

    But you can count the plethora of species that live in the colon and help us digest

    Not sure about plants or fungi. At least not in a "normal healthy" person living in the industrialized world.
    Would you mind expanding why you can't count them? Mitochondria are controlled by outside forces such as exercise so why can they not be included? They have their own DNA too.
    I would say because mitochondria are both 100% dependent for survival on existence within humans and, they cannot (as far as I know) be passed from one adult individual to another. Many of the genes for products essential to mitochondrial functioning are found in the nuclear genome as well.

    There are probably innumerable pathogens that exist on and within us at relatively low and harmless densities thanks to the normal functioning of our immune system. When a person becomes immune compromised, these pathogen populations can expand quite quickly.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    603
    Would a pregnancy count for one or more chordates living inside someone? That's a pretty common condition in both the third and first world.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,300
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Numsgil
    Tapeworm is a rare parasite. It is not part of a healthy functioning human.

    E Coli and other bacteria in the gut, on the other hand, are important for bowel regulation.

    I think we should limit ourselves to only symbiotic and commensal relationships.
    I honestly don't care about what you think. You seem to be blinded by the idea that the living conditions in a modern first world country reflects on the basic state of the average human being.

    In fact in many parts of the world helminthic parasitism is endemic. And that is a fact.
    No offense spurious but you did say average human.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Numsgil
    Tapeworm is a rare parasite. It is not part of a healthy functioning human.

    E Coli and other bacteria in the gut, on the other hand, are important for bowel regulation.

    I think we should limit ourselves to only symbiotic and commensal relationships.
    I honestly don't care about what you think. You seem to be blinded by the idea that the living conditions in a modern first world country reflects on the basic state of the average human being.

    In fact in many parts of the world helminthic parasitism is endemic. And that is a fact.
    No offense spurious but you did say average human.
    Considering the vast numbers of people living in third world countries, tapeworms may in fact be the "average" for all humans on the planet.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,300
    Considering the vast numbers of people living in third world countries, tapeworms may in fact be the "average" for all humans on the planet.
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    The average human is actually a collection of organisms from all 6 (or 5/4) kingdoms.
    Nearly 1.4 billion people carry roundworm. Nearly 1.3 billion carry those naughty intestine ravaging hookworms. Even these examples are not of the "average" person. There are nearly 7 billion people living on this earth and the majority of them do not have parasites. What we do have is a relationship with e-coli, l. acidophilus, etc, in our intestines. Since we eat fungi in mushroom and other forms that can possibly be said to be a part of most humans. There are also naturally occuring fungi as part of our human flora. Motile cilia are found in the lining of the trachea, where they sweep mucus and dirt out of the lungs.

    Thus we "average" humans contain members of the Kingdoms Protozoa (cilia), Fungi (candida in gut) and Bacteria (e. coli, l. acidophilus, etc). As far as I know, we normally don't have any plants or animals living within our bodies. I would argue that the average human is a collection of various members of 3 Kingdoms living within a single animal. Much like other animals.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    Our skin is probably crawling with nematodes.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    The mitochondria is not a Chromist, it's not even descended from a Chromist. Also, cilia are cellular processes not separate organisms.

    As for parasite distribution, parasites tend to be tropical organisms, if you looked specifically at populations of North Africa, Central Asia, and South East Asia, you would probably find that they do become the average. The parasite levels tend to be controlled in Southern Europe and the Gulf Coast of the USA by proper water treatment.

    Also, studies conducted in the USA have found pinworm incidence rates between 30-80% in caucasian children. The parasite is generally considered to be ubiquitous, you can imagine infection rates in countries with limited access to sanitation and healthcare would have higher rates. This organism is highly adapted to living in humans, it causes no disease except for rare appendicitis. The female worm lays it's eggs on the peri-anal skin and secretes an inflammatory compound to make the skin itchy, so that a person will scratch and then facilitate the transfer of the eggs by spreading them to everywhere you touch. So, wash your hands before you eat
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Moderator Moderator TheBiologista's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,569
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    There are nearly 7 billion people living on this earth and the majority of them do not have parasites.
    I'd be very, very surprised if this is true. Do you have numbers on that somewhere?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,300
    Also, studies conducted in the USA have found pinworm incidence rates between 30-80% in caucasian children.
    Quite a broad range, no? Not very conclusive at all.

    Also, cilia are cellular processes not separate organisms.
    That doesn't matter. They are still protozoa. No one stipulated that they had to be seperate organisms.


    I'd be very, very surprised if this is true. Do you have numbers on that somewhere?
    Do you have access to studies proving me wrong?

    The mitochondria is not a Chromist
    I never said that it was. Mitochondria derived from endosymbiotic prokaryotes.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    There actually seems to be a hypothetical link between a lack of parasites in western society and allergies.

    Allegedly parasites like tapeworm prime the immunesystem to give a proper response to foreign bodies. And without the exposure to them on normal levels this just doesn't happen leading to an increase in allergies.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Moderator Moderator TheBiologista's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,569
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    There actually seems to be a hypothetical link between a lack of parasites in western society and allergies.

    Allegedly parasites like tapeworm prime the immunesystem to give a proper response to foreign bodies. And without the exposure to them on normal levels this just doesn't happen leading to an increase in allergies.
    Yep, or that our co-evolution with a massive helminth burden means that we were being positively selected for a twitchy, over-reacting Th2 response. Which promptly goes nuts over very little. That's evolution for you. Change the environment and a beneficial mutation becomes a detrimental one. I think it is still hypothesis, but certainly plausible.

    I *cough* blogged on it way back.

    http://thebiologista.blogspot.com/2008/09/horsey.html
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,242
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBiologista
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    There actually seems to be a hypothetical link between a lack of parasites in western society and allergies.

    Allegedly parasites like tapeworm prime the immunesystem to give a proper response to foreign bodies. And without the exposure to them on normal levels this just doesn't happen leading to an increase in allergies.
    Yep, or that our co-evolution with a massive helminth burden means that we were being positively selected for a twitchy, over-reacting Th2 response. Which promptly goes nuts over very little. That's evolution for you. Change the environment and a beneficial mutation becomes a detrimental one. I think it is still hypothesis, but certainly plausible.

    I *cough* blogged on it way back.

    http://thebiologista.blogspot.com/2008/09/horsey.html
    Does this mean then that infecting yourself with Platyhelminthes with cure your asthma/allergies or is it something that has to happen early in life you think? It does sound pretty reasonable. I am just curious; doesn't the life cycle of Platyhelminthes include domesticated pigs or is that just coincidental?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Moderator Moderator TheBiologista's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,569
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBiologista
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    There actually seems to be a hypothetical link between a lack of parasites in western society and allergies.

    Allegedly parasites like tapeworm prime the immunesystem to give a proper response to foreign bodies. And without the exposure to them on normal levels this just doesn't happen leading to an increase in allergies.
    Yep, or that our co-evolution with a massive helminth burden means that we were being positively selected for a twitchy, over-reacting Th2 response. Which promptly goes nuts over very little. That's evolution for you. Change the environment and a beneficial mutation becomes a detrimental one. I think it is still hypothesis, but certainly plausible.

    I *cough* blogged on it way back.

    http://thebiologista.blogspot.com/2008/09/horsey.html
    Does this mean then that infecting yourself with Platyhelminthes with cure your asthma/allergies or is it something that has to happen early in life you think?
    I know there are some immunology labs here in Ireland looking into that question but I don't think anyone's about to recommend "a worm a day". Naturally, they'll be hoping for some easy molecular basis that they can patent :wink:
    Reply With Quote  
     

  37. #36  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,242
    Good luck to them then!
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  38. #37  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBiologista

    I know there are some immunology labs here in Ireland looking into that question but I don't think anyone's about to recommend "a worm a day". Naturally, they'll be hoping for some easy molecular basis that they can patent :wink:
    There is some suggestion that BCG vaccines (live attenuated mycobacterium vaccine against TB), may provide protection against allergies.

    Lupus susceptible mice injected with BCG showed significant decreases in autoimmune disease symptoms. I don't think we'll be giving TB vaccines to our children anytime soon though.

    It's also interesting that autoimmune disease seems to strike women a lot more often then men.

    Edit: Margulis, though most would agree with her endosymbiotic theory for the mitochondria, is completely nuts. Cilia are not spyrochetes, her entire idea is based off the fact that termites have co-opted spyrochetes that function similarily to cilia. However, the eukaryotic tubulin protein is homologous with the archael FtsZ. Her argument just doesn't hold up. Cilia are not of bacterial origin. As for protozoan origin, I don't know of any evidence to support that, especially since some single celled protist actually have cilia, so it's much more likely cilia were retained through evolution.

    As for cristae, I don't see how that could be a chromist. The mitochondria is likely derived from an early proteobacter, which would have had 2 membranes to begin with. Over time a more heavily folded inner membrane was selected for because it allowed for greater surface area and thus more efficient energy production through the ETC.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  39. #38  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,290
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    the average human is a collection of various members of 4 Kingdoms living within a single animal.
    Heh. I skimmed that as "4 Kilograms". Now I'm curious if anybody reckoned the total load?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  40. #39  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    the average human is a collection of various members of 4 Kingdoms living within a single animal.
    Heh. I skimmed that as "4 Kilograms". Now I'm curious if anybody reckoned the total load?
    I think the estimate is around 10 times more cells than human cells, however bacterial cells are much smaller and don't contain things like collagen stores that require high amounts of water to be osmotically stable. They likely don't weigh too much, maybe a couple pounds?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  41. #40  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,290
    Thanks. That's all the perspective I was itching for.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  42. #41  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,300
    I never said that it was. Mitochondria derived from endosymbiotic prokaryotes. However, the cristae are Chromists.
    Whoops! I misread. Tubular christae are features of the haptophyte Chromists...I read it as meaning our mitochondrion's cristae were Chromists..
    Reply With Quote  
     

  43. #42  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,300
    That means we're down to Protozoa (cilia), Fungi (candida in gut) and Bacteria (e. coli, l. acidophilus, etc).
    Reply With Quote  
     

  44. #43  
    Forum Masters Degree Numsgil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    708
    I think plants are the nail in the coffin. There just aren't any colonies of algae growing on our skins. It's actually rather interesting considering how many other kingdoms are highly successful being parasitic on mammals.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  45. #44  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,300
    Also, cilia are cellular processes not separate organisms.
    And we also thought the mitochondrion were once merely organelles. The cilia could very well have once been seperate organisms. There is so much we still don't know. The cilia in our bodies reminds me a lot of the Ciliates, a kind of Protozoa characterized by having cilia.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  46. #45  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,242
    Quote Originally Posted by Numsgil
    I think plants are the nail in the coffin. There just aren't any colonies of algae growing on our skins. It's actually rather interesting considering how many other kingdoms are highly successful being parasitic on mammals.
    I think you might have hinted at the problem. For them to be plants, they have to photosynthesize, no? So they would have to be close enough to the surface of the skin to be able to catch some sun. I can't think how they could be very motile in these conditions or even how they could get there in the first place.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  47. #46  
    Forum Masters Degree Numsgil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    708
    Would a non-photosynthesizing life form descended from plants be considered a plant?

    On a purely theoretical level, I can imagine crusty planet material maybe matting in an animals fur, with roots into the flesh extracting moisture that way...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  48. #47  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,290
    Do seeds count? Many plants depend on animal ingestion to complete part of their life cycles. Though we humans don't play nice at that game do we?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  49. #48  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    The coat of sloths is loaded with plants.

    The Value of a Green Back
    What I find most interesting about the three-toed sloth is the symbiotic relationship it has with other organisms. One effect of the sloth’s languid pace of life is that it can’t be bothered to groom itself. This turns out to be beneficial to several varieties of algae and mold that grow inside the sloth’s hollow hairs. The algae effectively turn the sloth green, giving it excellent camouflage among the leaves. The camouflage is crucial to the sloth’s survival, because its inability to move quickly makes it an easy target for the harpy eagle.

    But the symbiosis doesn’t end there. The algae in the sloth’s fur provides food for a great many insects. (I should point out, incidentally, that sloths have extremely long fur, making them appear much larger than they really are.) Beetles have been found by the hundreds living on a single sloth. Another insect that calls the sloth home is a type of moth—Bradipodicola hahneli (or “sloth moth” to most people). The sloth’s fur provides both food and protection for the moth. Not only does it feed on the algae, but it also deposits its eggs in the sloth’s droppings, where they pupate and hatch, and then fly off to look for another sloth to live on.
    http://itotd.com/articles/450/the-hi...ves-of-sloths/
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  50. #49  
    Forum Freshman Molecular's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    51
    I have a large amount of plant DNA running through my body everyday in the form of tea and coffee :-D

    You all must of heard the story about if you eat an apple seed it grows inside you. Mums are not wrong you know!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  51. #50  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    The average human is actually a collection of organisms from all 6 (or 5/4) kingdoms.
    If you hold on to what you said then you can say that a stone for example is a collection of several organisms too. Let's not confuse young students with that!
    Latvian ice hockey team - next world champions!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  52. #51  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Quote Originally Posted by Numsgil
    Would a non-photosynthesizing life form descended from plants be considered a plant?

    On a purely theoretical level, I can imagine crusty planet material maybe matting in an animals fur, with roots into the flesh extracting moisture that way...
    There are actually parasitic plants that prey on other plants, they have a kind of washed out appearance because of the lack of chlorophyll.



    The pinkish vine is the parasitic plant.

    Now back to cilia, I find it much more reasonable to think that the reason ciliates and animals both have cilia, is because animals and modern ciliates share a common ancestor that probably closely resembled current ciliate protozoans. Cilia lack genetic material, or anything at all that suggests they are of endosymbiotic origin. Let's not jump on the Lynn Margulis wagon and call every organelle an endosymbiont just because mitochondria and chloroplast are very much likely to be.

    Edit: Like hell the Latvians are the next world champions.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  53. #52  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,300
    Now back to cilia, I find it much more reasonable to think that the reason ciliates and animals both have cilia, is because animals and modern ciliates share a common ancestor that probably closely resembled current ciliate protozoans. Cilia lack genetic material, or anything at all that suggests they are of endosymbiotic origin. Let's not jump on the Lynn Margulis wagon and call every organelle an endosymbiont just because mitochondria and chloroplast are very much likely to be.
    Thank you. I wanted to know more about the Ciliates. I don't think cilia in out bodies themselves are endosymbiots but what about them being a feature of a structure that is? (in our bodies) Does that theory hold any water? What exactly are the cilia attached to in the trachea?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  54. #53  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,242
    "Ciliated columnar epithelium

    These are simple columnar epithelial cells, but in addition, they posses fine hair-like outgrowths, cilia on their free surfaces. These cilia are capable of rapid, rhythmic, wavelike beatings in a certain direction. This movement of the cilia in a certain direction causes the mucus, which is secreted by the goblet cells, to move (flow or stream) in that direction. Ciliated epithelium is usually found in the air passages like the nose. It is also found in the uterus and Fallopian tubes of females. The movement of the cilia propel the ovum to the uterus."

    Wiki
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  55. #54  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Thank you. I wanted to know more about the Ciliates. I don't think cilia in out bodies themselves are endosymbiots but what about them being a feature of a structure that is? (in our bodies) Does that theory hold any water? What exactly are the cilia attached to in the trachea?
    Termites have endosymbionts that act as ciliated cells in the gut.

    However, cilia themselves are membrane bound cylindrical structures made of tubulin, they are connected to the cytoskeleton and are an interesting organelle but that's all they are.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  56. #55  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    but that's all they are.
    unless they are also the hand of God.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  57. #56  
    Forum Freshman mustafa korkutata's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    7
    Deleted
    Last edited by mustafa korkutata; June 19th, 2013 at 09:18 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  58. #57  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,300
    Quote Originally Posted by mustafa korkutata
    may be human is an animal or not animal but its real human is similar to animal.of course, without a stronger thinking skills.
    Is this what you were trying to communicate?

    Maybe humans are animals. Maybe not. Humans are similar to animals. Of course, humans are capable of higher reasoning, while lower animals are not.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  59. #58  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    180
    Consider that there are more microbial cells in/on the human body than human cells - the other cells being made up of memebrs of kingdonms (in US thinking) Fungi, Protista, Archaea, Bacteria - add mites and other metazoan parasite so Animalia. So 5 are easily imagined. Maybe Planta too.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  60. #59  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    603
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Quote Originally Posted by mustafa korkutata
    may be human is an animal or not animal but its real human is similar to animal.of course, without a stronger thinking skills.
    Is this what you were trying to communicate?

    Maybe humans are animals. Maybe not. Humans are similar to animals. Of course, humans are capable of higher reasoning, while lower animals are not.

    Thanks for demonstrating those stronger thinking skills gott haha



    who said something about insects what? Peritrophic membrane is what gets pushed by the stomach epithelial cilia, if i recall (and I probably don't)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  61. #60  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,300
    Thanks for demonstrating those stronger thinking skills gott haha
    I know..stop me before I get all Shakespearean on everyone's ass...lol
    Reply With Quote  
     

  62. #61  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Quote Originally Posted by mustafa korkutata
    may be human is an animal or not animal but its real human is similar to animal.of course, without a stronger thinking skills.
    Is this what you were trying to communicate?

    Maybe humans are animals. Maybe not. Humans are similar to animals. Of course, humans are capable of higher reasoning, while lower animals are not.
    If this is what he meant he makes a fundamental error.

    Every animal has something it is exceptional in. That's what defines it as a species. To arbitrarily pick a characteristic and claim it is boundary between humans and animals is a folly. An artificial construct to make some people feel better, or whatever 'human' reasoning lies behind it.

    It is not a biological valid method of reasoning.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  63. #62  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,290
    Whales are animal, so is a pod of whales. Humans are animal, humanity isn't.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  64. #63  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    A mob of humans is.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  65. #64  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    180
    Humanity isn't? isn't what? Animal? So whalenesss is?

    What fatuous silliness.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  66. #65  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    A cromulent observation.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •