Notices
Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: Evidence for Evolution

  1. #1 Evidence for Evolution 
    Forum Masters Degree Golkarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    510
    There is much evidence for evolution. If you have some lesser known (or even some widely known) evidence for it, I was wondering if you could post it here, just to see how much we can get. (Try and avoid stuff like Haekel's embryos, embryology is fine though, and piltdown man, those things no longer accepted in the scientific community, most things objected to by creationists should be fine though).


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Ph.D. Darius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    821
    The Miller-Urey experiment appears to be fairly unknown to anyone that hasn't delved very in-depth to evolution or abiogenesis (and even a number that have). Although, really, this provides more evidence to abiogenesis. Quite frankly, the less retarded creationists believe that only abiogenesis is flase, so you probably want more of this.


    Om mani padme hum

    "In dishonorable things we are not bound to obey any man." - The Book of the Courtier [1561], pg 99 (144 in pdf)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    603
    uhhh I can't even look at an animal without seeing evidence. How about the entire fossil record and every living animal today?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Ph.D. Darius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    821
    Quote Originally Posted by mormoopid
    uhhh I can't even look at an animal without seeing evidence. How about the entire fossil record and every living animal today?
    This is the same rationality used by creationists and general believers everywhere. "I see gods handiwork in all life!" and so on. I believe there's a formal fallacy concerning this but I cannot recall the name.
    Om mani padme hum

    "In dishonorable things we are not bound to obey any man." - The Book of the Courtier [1561], pg 99 (144 in pdf)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    603
    and dr. raincloud comes in to ruin everyones day.


    I have a background in comparative anatomy, systematics, phylogeny, evolution etc etc. With a training like that, I honestly see a bird and I instantly think back to the evolutionary history and the subsequent adaptations. It's not just walking in the park and thinking it's pretty and assuming someone created it on a whim.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by mormoopid
    I have a background in comparative anatomy, systematics, phylogeny, evolution etc etc. With a training like that, [emphasis mine - paralith] I honestly see a bird and I instantly think back to the evolutionary history and the subsequent adaptations. It's not just walking in the park and thinking it's pretty and assuming someone created it on a whim.
    Background references are very helpful for people who do not have your training and background, mormoopoid. For them, a "no duh" response isn't too helpful.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Ph.D. Darius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    821
    All that allows is intellectual laziness. You can be very well educated in a specific field and still be surprised with what you can learn. In spite of my education I personally strive for complete neutrality. When I look at life I see neither evolution or creation. Upon the time when an idea must be formed I go with the most plausible based on evidence, but I do not attach this evidence with the object. It's this careful separation that allows for the constant revising of ideas I currently hold.
    Om mani padme hum

    "In dishonorable things we are not bound to obey any man." - The Book of the Courtier [1561], pg 99 (144 in pdf)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    Three-spined sticklebacks are good example. These little fish are extremely widespread and quite diverse, so you could find a subspecies practically in any watershed. They seem to speciate easily (?). Some populations live in salt water, some in fresh, some mixed.

    The sticklebacks living in certain British Columbia island lakes are especially great studies, for we know for certain these fish all trace from a recent, common pool. See, since last ice age the islands have been slowly rebounding after the weight of glaciers pressed much of their terrain below sea level. As the islands rose, ocean shore - populated by marine sticklebacks - became brackish tidal pools and later sweet lakes totally cut off from sea. This was merely thousands of years ago. The differences we find there must have arisen since then.

    The lake sticklebacks of course have adapted to fresh water. They've also taken on many characteristics common to lake sticklebacks... that's interesting in itself - the fact most isolated populations evolved identical traits in parallel. Also the lake sticklebacks have divided into two exclusive groups: bottom feeders and surface feeders. Each has it's own distinctive markings, feeding adaptations, and mating dance, and they don't interbreed, i.e. they are effectively different species now.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Quote Originally Posted by Darius
    All that allows is intellectual laziness. You can be very well educated in a specific field and still be surprised with what you can learn. In spite of my education I personally strive for complete neutrality. When I look at life I see neither evolution or creation. Upon the time when an idea must be formed I go with the most plausible based on evidence, but I do not attach this evidence with the object. It's this careful separation that allows for the constant revising of ideas I currently hold.
    I find it unlikely that it would be productive for evolutionary biologist to waste their time on every animal wondering if it appeared by magic or through evolution. My understanding is that they are working towards finding how things evolved and in what ways, rather than if something evolved at all. Nor is the statement that there is evidence of evolution in every living creature lazy, because it is true.

    edit: Anyway as for evidence of evolution, the mitochondria and choloroplast have much in common with bacteria, supporting an endosymbiotic theory of how eukaryotes evolves.

    Volvox species can be looked at as evidence of an intermediate form between multicellular and unicellular life.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11 Re: Evidence for Evolution 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian
    There is much evidence for evolution. If you have some lesser known (or even some widely known) evidence for it, I was wondering if you could post it here, just to see how much we can get. (Try and avoid stuff like Haekel's embryos, embryology is fine though, and piltdown man, those things no longer accepted in the scientific community, most things objected to by creationists should be fine though).

    You are in luck. In the year 2008 there have been no less than 20,338 publications on the topic evolution in biomedical journals.

    If that is too much for you you can always just read the reviews. That would only be 6.2 papers to read per day.

    Unfortunately when you are done with that, you can start reading the 2009 papers on evolution which will be more.


    I can assure you that not even God can keep track of all the evidence of evolution, so I would qualify the amount of evidence for evolution as 'much'.

    Alternatively you could real all publications on evolution in the standard biomedical database. You only need to read 700 scientific publications per day.

    Yes, there is much evidence.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Masters Degree Golkarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    510
    I'm aware there is no way of getting ALL of the evidence here, just stuff that particularly interests you, here is an article on the diversification of guppies (You'll need to view the whole article from an institution w/ journal subscriptions):

    http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten.../275/5308/1934
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,300
    Evolution=Change

    I read something, I get smarter. My neurons fire and wire together. Proof of evolution.

    Viruses evolve fairly quickly into strains that we can't combat effectively. Proof of evolution.

    Sometimes structure must change in order to alter function. Whether this takes place in a daily activity (weightlifting, reading, etc) or in the evolutionary record (development of sight, wings, etc) is the same to me. Evolution is simply a broader alteration of structure and therefore takes more time to complete.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,232
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Three-spined sticklebacks are good example...........
    The question is: How much of this is phenotype expression?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Evolution=Change
    Biological evolution is more than just that - I think it is misleading to liken it to changes in your body during your lifetime.

    Evolution = change in the gene frequencies of a population. Development = the changes your body goes through during your lifetime; the mechanisms and parameters of these changes are determined by your evolutionary history.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Three-spined sticklebacks are good example...........
    The question is: How much of this is phenotype expression?
    Do you mean genotype Kalster?
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,232
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Three-spined sticklebacks are good example...........
    The question is: How much of this is phenotype expression?
    Do you mean genotype Kalster?
    Oh yeah, I meant genotype expression, i.e. phenotype. Environmental and Epigenetic factors.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian
    the diversification of guppies
    Awesome. Guppies are especially good illustration because anybody with an indifferently maintained fishtank can watch these 50 pets segregate into zone/habits and breed accordingly. They're easy to tell apart by their patchy/streaky markings.


    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    How much of this is phenotype?
    Murky... I dunno. The individual variations in these little fish species are puzzling to casual observation.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Cardiff, Wales
    Posts
    5,760
    some further evidence of evolution : the apple maggot fly evolved in the first half of the 19th century from the related hawthorn fly to benefit from the recently introduced apple orchards

    even though they can interbreed under laboratory conditions, in nature they don't because apples appear earlier in the year and hence the apple maggot fly's reproductive cycle is out of synch with that of its ancestor

    result : reproductive isolation as the first step towards speciation
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,300
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Evolution=Change
    Biological evolution is more than just that - I think it is misleading to liken it to changes in your body during your lifetime.

    Evolution = change in the gene frequencies of a population. Development = the changes your body goes through during your lifetime; the mechanisms and parameters of these changes are determined by your evolutionary history.
    Notice that you used the word "change" in both descriptions :P I think that seeing individuals change can open one's mind to the possiblity that species can change. Maybe I should not have been so bold as to have said "proof". And what about caterpillars? Don't they evolve in their own lifetime into butterflies? Are there genomic differences between the two?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,232
    And what about caterpillars? Don't they evolve in their own lifetime into butterflies?
    No. The metamorphosis is due to evolution, but not evolution itself.

    Are there genomic differences between the two?
    None whatsoever.

    I sometimes wonder if those changes are similar to those it went through inside the egg in the past, but that it has evolved to exit the egg before adulthood. I also wonder if some (or all) worm species are insects that has done away with the final metamorphosis altogether. They can eat much more food during these times than you could ever fit into an egg, thus providing the benefit of hatching early.:|
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Forum Masters Degree Golkarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    510
    Here's an article on mammalian evolution (again because of copyright, only the abstract):

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/info/4523575?seq=1
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Masters Degree Golkarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    510
    Quote Originally Posted by Darius
    Quote Originally Posted by mormoopid
    uhhh I can't even look at an animal without seeing evidence. How about the entire fossil record and every living animal today?
    This is the same rationality used by creationists and general believers everywhere. "I see gods handiwork in all life!" and so on. I believe there's a formal fallacy concerning this but I cannot recall the name.
    I think it might be "personal incredulity"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,193
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Three-spined sticklebacks are good example...........
    The question is: How much of this is phenotype expression?
    Do you mean genotype Kalster?
    Oh yeah, I meant genotype expression, i.e. phenotype. Environmental and Epigenetic factors.
    Depends on which phenotypical characteristic you are examining of course.

    If you look at the selection on armor plating it is mostly 100% genetic and 0% environmental. Therefore 100% under the influence of natural selection. In this case the existence of different Eda gene alleles.

    There is quite a lot of literature on this. Of course, nobody can ever be arsed to actually look for evidence. Because it is all so much easier to read general texts found on the internet.


    Recent one:
    Reverse Evolution of Armor Plates in the Threespine Stickleback. Current Biology Volume 18, Issue 10, 20 May 2008, Pages 769-774
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Forum Freshman Molecular's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    51
    Dogs that have descended from Wolves are evidence that evolution can occur. Although this is artificial selection over ~6000 years it shows that a species can evolve.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,232
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Three-spined sticklebacks are good example...........
    The question is: How much of this is phenotype expression?
    Do you mean genotype Kalster?
    Oh yeah, I meant genotype expression, i.e. phenotype. Environmental and Epigenetic factors.
    Depends on which phenotypical characteristic you are examining of course.

    If you look at the selection on armor plating it is mostly 100% genetic and 0% environmental. Therefore 100% under the influence of natural selection. In this case the existence of different Eda gene alleles.

    There is quite a lot of literature on this. Of course, nobody can ever be arsed to actually look for evidence. Because it is all so much easier to read general texts found on the internet.


    Recent one:
    Reverse Evolution of Armor Plates in the Threespine Stickleback. Current Biology Volume 18, Issue 10, 20 May 2008, Pages 769-774
    Oh sweet, thanks. (I have been watching South Park).
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •