Notices
Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: a dog with 6 toes, 1000 years of evolution from the wolf

  1. #1 a dog with 6 toes, 1000 years of evolution from the wolf 
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    927
    the norwegian lundehund.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Lundehund

    the norwegian article is more comprehensive, details its history and stuff.


    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    599
    this probably reflects a simply polydactyly. It's not that unheard of, just a simple flaw in the inhibitor for the digital arch complex- or a delayed response.

    It's pretty common in housecats to have this; infact, out in Newfoundland polydactyl cats are rampant. Apparently it helps them grip fish better.

    If this is a true trait of the breed it wouldn't be surprising either. It's actually less dramatic of a change than the oh so common albino reptiles you see being designer bred all over North America.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    927
    yes its a true trait of the breed, they all have 6 toes.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    7
    Due to an abundance of fertile wolf-dog hybrids, several years ago the taxonomic classification of wolves and dogs was changed; they are now the same species. So where’s the evolution?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    599
    actually, they are not.

    Canis lupus is a wolf, Canis familiaris is a dog. Thanks for coming out though. Dogs can interbreed throughout the genus, including Canis latrans, the common coyote. It falls apart at the family and subfamily level, where outsiders of the genus Canis (such as Vulpes, the foxes) cannot interbreed. Producing a viable hybrid isn't that hard, members of the genus Uroplatus do it all.

    I'd like to see some sources citing the merger of these two species of Canis without including coyotes. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, considering that common dogs and coyotes make viable hybrids alot more often than dogs and wolves.

    Besides, evolution can happen within a species, it doesn't always just happen on the level of species changing to species. Besides, you look at a bulldog skull and then a wolf skull and you will see a world of difference, in this extreme example.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    7
    [quote="mormoopid"]actually, they are not.

    Canis lupus is a wolf, Canis familiaris is a dog.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog

    Kingdom: Animalia

    Phylum: Chordata

    Class: Mammalia

    Order: Carnivora

    Family: Canidae

    Genus: Canis

    Species: C. lupus

    Subspecies: C. l. familiaris
    “The dog (Canis lupus familiaris)[2] is a domesticated subspecies of the gray wolf, a mammal of the Canidae family of the order Carnivora.”


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_Wolf

    Kingdom: Animalia

    Phylum: Chordata

    Class: Mammalia

    Order: Carnivora

    Family: Canidae

    Genus: Canis

    Species: C. lupus

    Canus lupus has at least 15 subspecies and may have as many as 37 or 50 subspecies. Organisms in subspecies are separated by geogrpahy or morphology and thus don’t have an opportunity to mate when left to their own devices (a Pekingnese and a Great Dane for example or dogs in New York and California), but there is no reason to assume that they couldn’t mate and produce fertile offspring if the obstacles were removed.

    Dogs and wolves freely interbreed when given an opportunity to do so and their offspring are fertile. According to the definition of species, dogs and wolves are the same species; they are a group of organisms that can mate and produce fertile offspring.
    As long as coyotes can mate with C. lupus they meet the biological definition of species even if taxonomists have not yet given them the same species name. If I remember correctly, when I first heard about the merger of dogs and wolves into the same species about 10 years ago coyotes were included.

    Besides, evolution can happen within a species, it doesn't always just happen on the level of species changing to species. Besides, you look at a bulldog skull and then a wolf skull and you will see a world of difference, in this extreme example.
    Evolution within a species is limited to the genetic variability that exists within the species. Some Creationists accept that a certain amount of evolution, i.e., change over time as organisms are selectively breed and otherwise adapt to their habitats is possible at the species or even the genus or family level (depending on how you define "kind" from Genesis chapter 1). But such evolution will not lead to any monkey to man scenario.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    599
    cool, they are technically the same thing anyways. Looks like they are making that whole species alot more plastic than it was to begin with.

    I see where this is going, gonna predict a genesis vs evolution debate right now. Anyways, to oblige before the storm:

    Why wouldn't it lead to different species? Given a little factor called "time", artificial selection will prove to be a legit selection factor. I don't see how it would be even considered different to begin with, you're still selecting for traits. If you don't believe me, I implore you to demonstrate to me a case of a yorkshire terrier and a wolf breeding, without artificial insemination. This already clearly shows two subgroups within this whole mess that probably aren't going to be swapping genes anytime soon, and will be diverging.

    Still not convinced? Look at the dramatic change seen in Bull Dog skeletons, especially the skull. You're telling me that they aren't diverging from wolves in the SLIGHTEST?

    Is someone a skeptic of evolution or just macro evolution?
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •