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Thread: which came first?chicken or egg?

  1. #1 which came first?chicken or egg? 
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    I found an essay written about this topic,and i have posted it on my blog, www.danielscience.blogspot.com ,but i hope to hear more from you guys,either scientifically or not...


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    Mathematically: from all organisms in the history, take the first chicken (chronologically) - it was the first chicken egg before...
    But this require strict definition of being chicken - for example the set of all possible chicken's genomes Mathematically it's correct, but biologically the differences are so small, that in practice above question just doesn't have sense...


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    Forum Sophomore arkofnoah's Avatar
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    I would say the egg. Let's assume that the chicken species arise out the a single point mutation somewhere in the genome of the chicken ancestor, only a germ line mutation, in the gametes, can result in this new species called chicken. Hence the first chicken is hatched from an egg laid by a non-chicken species. :-D
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    we've had this thread before.

    The question isn't a valid one since both chicken and egg are the same organism and merely differ in the ontological stage. The egg is the chicken and the chicken is the egg.
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
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    I think it was also brought up before, that egg's predate the evolution of birds, so eggs in general (rather than chicken eggs) came first.
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    i would also say egg, as the proto-chicken laid the mutation that turned into the chicken, but its really a non-question as the definition of chicken isn't strict enough.
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  8. #7  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    I think it was also brought up before, that egg's predate the evolution of birds, so eggs in general (rather than chicken eggs) came first.
    The bird egg is the bird. So it cannot predate the evolution of birds.
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    I think he means eggs in general, as in dinosaurs, fishes, etc. From that perspective the egg came first.
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  10. #9  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    Not really, since the dinosaur egg and adult dinosaur are just different developmental stages of the same organism.

    You would end up with the same problem.

    Honestly, it's just a shit question, hence there is no valuable answer. It happens all the time in science.
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  11. #10  
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    If the question is taken more philosophically instead of absolutely literally, then it would be the chicken -- life was capable or reproducing far before the evolution of the egg.

    If you're talking more literally, the egg came first, as the chicken species will have started with a single individual hatched from a single egg; it's mother will be of a different species.
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    as the chicken species will have started with a single individual hatched from a single egg; it's mother will be of a different species.
    Sorry, but no. Evolution is gradual. You would never classify a mother's progeny as another species (maybe hybrids, but those rarely are able to reproduce).

    The only possible way to answer the question would be to say that eggs, as part of reproduction, happened first before chickens ever evolved. Other than that, it is just one of those questions designed to confound.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    I'm just wondering if I can egg you all into a big argument on the topic or are you all too chicken. :wink:
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  14. #13  
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    G'day from the land of ozzzzz


    The Egg evolved before the chicken that's simple evolution.

    Now the trick question is this.

    What came first the chicken or the chicken egg?
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Not really, since the dinosaur egg and adult dinosaur are just different developmental stages of the same organism.

    You would end up with the same problem.

    Honestly, it's just a shit question, hence there is no valuable answer. It happens all the time in science.
    honestly i don't think this is a "shit" question,there must be one to start first.And please be polite,i start with a question and don't want to develope a fight...
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Costas
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    The Egg evolved before the chicken that's simple evolution.

    Now the trick question is this.

    What came first the chicken or the chicken egg?
    Absolutely. Egg first.

    Which came first the chicken or the chicken egg is a much more involved question.
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  17. #16  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danieltan
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Not really, since the dinosaur egg and adult dinosaur are just different developmental stages of the same organism.

    You would end up with the same problem.

    Honestly, it's just a shit question, hence there is no valuable answer. It happens all the time in science.
    honestly i don't think this is a "shit" question,there must be one to start first.And please be polite,i start with a question and don't want to develope a fight...
    You may think all you want. However, thoughts don't validate the legitimacy of a question.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    as the chicken species will have started with a single individual hatched from a single egg; it's mother will be of a different species.
    Sorry, but no. Evolution is gradual. You would never classify a mother's progeny as another species (maybe hybrids, but those rarely are able to reproduce).

    The only possible way to answer the question would be to say that eggs, as part of reproduction, happened first before chickens ever evolved. Other than that, it is just one of those questions designed to confound.
    Yes, evolution is gradual, but you have to draw the line at some point - even if we consider a life form with an exact set of genes a species, every creature will have minor genetic mutations that keep us from being the "ideal"; no creature is ever a perfect representation of a species -- the animal in question may not be guaranteedly considered a Chicken, but there is point at which it is more of a Chicken than the specifically defined Species X, which was its progenitor, and that was the point I was trying to make.
    "Impossible is just a word people use to make themselves feel better after they've given up."
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danieltan
    honestly i don't think this is a "shit" question,there must be one to start first.And please be polite,i start with a question and don't want to develope a fight...
    Spurious can sometimes be a little direct in his responses. However, please note that he has stated that it is common in science to ask 'shit questions'. It is part of the process of arriving at the the good questions.
    The problem is that the question is meaningless. As spurious has pointed out the chicken and the egg are the same organism, just at different stages in their development. It makes no sense, on this basis, to ask which came first.

    Moreover, what would the value of an answer to this question be? It's somewhat along the lines of asking 'Have you stoppped beating your wife?'

    Welcome to the forum by the way.
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  20. #19  
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    G'day from the land of ozzzzzzz


    I said before

    The Egg evolved before the chicken that's simple evolution.

    Now the trick question is this.

    What came first the chicken or the chicken egg?
    That is why I posted it, to eliminate that issue.

    As for Monkey he came before MAN.
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  21. #20  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite

    Moreover, what would the value of an answer to this question be? It's somewhat along the lines of asking 'Have you stoppped beating your wife?'
    I never started.

    :wink:
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