Notices
Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: Race and IQ

  1. #1 Race and IQ 
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    226
    The geneticist James Watson ( and good friend of Richard Dawkins)
    claimed that black people have lower IQs than others and that there
    may even be genetic evidence to find the cause of this.

    He is still forthcoming with the evidence.

    Of course, Dr Watson is yet another racist fascist who probably
    supported apartheid in the colonial area.

    But there is evidence that black people in Europe and America
    do actually have lower IQs and educational performances ( only
    marginally though).

    But, having been consistently outperformed at university by
    fellow students from Nigeria ( certainly in Maths), I consider it to
    be a cultural problem that is linked to the legacy of slavery.

    Blacks in America and people of Caribbean descent in Europe
    were subjected to physical and menial work for centuries.
    As such, I think that ,subsconsciously, they have assumed
    that their "salvation" is through physical ( eg sport) or
    artistic means ( like blues, hipop music). As IQ does not
    measure such abilities they naturally do worse in the
    tests.

    As such, many black kids in the West grow up disinterested
    in the sciences and more in sport and music. In Africa, those
    kids who can afford to get an education tend to be more
    interested in becoming doctors and engineers....they will
    thus have higher IQs.

    We also think that Chinese and Indian people are smart.
    But name one Chinese scientist or mathematician of
    any note? There are two easy reasons:

    1) Chinese and Indian people make up a lot of the world's
    population: you expect to find some brainy people in
    such a large base. Those that come to the West tend to
    be the clever ones.

    2) Both cultures places massive emphasis on education.
    study study study. Children are forced to do well at
    school by over-ambitious parents.

    It is also amusing that amongst Indians, the ones in
    the South are regarded as much more intelligent that
    the people from the North: however, it is also not
    surprising that the educational system in the South
    are so much better.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    79
    I'm guessing your point is that it isn't genetic, but rather cultural. Which I'm inclined to agree with. However, there may be truth in the genetic argument, but likely it is only a tiny variance, that could only make a difference if society decided it should.
    But just because someone suggests something that may show a difference between races, doesn't mean they are inherantly fascist or racist. Racism only comes into it when you decide how the information should affect, or not, the world.

    also...
    But name one Chinese scientist or mathematician of
    any note?
    are you being serious?


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Professor Pendragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Nederland
    Posts
    1,085
    If you interpret the word 'cultural differences' in a broad sense then I tend to agree as well (or better: socio-cultural differences).

    I think intelligence is to a very large extent linked to 'nurture': do parents stimulate learning, are there sources of information available to the young child, what quality of education is available? For example studies persistently show that it's of great importance that parents read books and tell stories to their young children. An illiterate mother, or parents who just don't care about books and stories, can put a child at a disadvantage very early in life. That's just one small example, if you add it all up it could become quite significant.

    I think Africa would have great potential if it manages to solve it's literacy and education problems. India, China and other Asian countries suffer poverty as well, but they still seem to allocate more of their scarce resources to education (maybe someone could find statistics for that).
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by UKDutyPaid
    I'm guessing your point is that it isn't genetic, but rather cultural. Which I'm inclined to agree with. However, there may be truth in the genetic argument, but likely it is only a tiny variance, that could only make a difference if society decided it should.
    But just because someone suggests something that may show a difference between races, doesn't mean they are inherantly fascist or racist. Racism only comes into it when you decide how the information should affect, or not, the world.

    also...
    But name one Chinese scientist or mathematician of
    any note?
    are you being serious?
    What I meant was that , sure, there are Chinese scientists
    out there but that ,as a race, they have not produced any
    great scientist of note like a Newton or an Einstein.

    In fact, in recent times only three countries, Britain, France
    and America have produced scientists of any consequence.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    What I meant was that , sure, there are Chinese scientists
    out there but that ,as a race, they have not produced any
    great scientist of note like a Newton or an Einstein.

    In fact, in recent times only three countries, Britain, France
    and America have produced scientists of any consequence.
    I would include Russia and Germany in that list... The fact is that a country must be an industrial power before it can actually have the funds to finance proper research and innovation. I doubt we will ever see a "star" scientist ever again because of the nature of research today. Everyones work is built on the work of others and we just remember the ones who are famous.

    All I can say though is that if I look at any scientific journal at least half of the publications are by asian scientist.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Professor Pendragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Nederland
    Posts
    1,085
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    All I can say though is that if I look at any scientific journal at least half of the publications are by asian scientist.
    I'm in social science, and at least a quarter or a third of the publications I encounter are by asian scientists. So they're certainly making a contribution to science. And who knows, maybe China will develop the first fusion reactor. They certainly seem to have big plans for that.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    79
    what tiredsleepy said.

    also, you will have to look further back in history to see when the middle and far east had their scientific/technological haydays.

    this page is a simple start: http://www.minnesota-china.com/Educa...inventions.htm
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by UKDutyPaid
    what tiredsleepy said.

    also, you will have to look further back in history to see when the middle and far east had their scientific/technological haydays.

    this page is a simple start: http://www.minnesota-china.com/Educa...inventions.htm
    Not really...what gunpowder?

    The best scientists of the ancient world were Greek

    Of the medieval period the best were Muslims.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    79
    I would wager that gunpowder has had as great an affect on the world as relativity.

    But gunpowder aside, that was just one example. I think you need to spread your net wider, to state that neither country have ever produced great scientists is just naive.

    Here's another little example.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ndu_inventions
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Bachelors Degree
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    414
    Here is a page for the history of mathematics in China http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/mathhist/china.html

    I'm almost positive that you'll find many many influential people in China in other studies as well. The Ancient Chinese invented gunpowder, the compass, paper and printing. At one time the Chinese were at the forefront of Scientific thought.

    I'll give a short blurb from the wikipedia page about why the Chinese didn't advance as fast as Europe did and why their was stagnation in their scientific developement:

    One question that has been the subject of debate among historians has been why China did not develop a scientific revolution and why Chinese technology fell behind that of Europe. Many hypotheses have been proposed ranging from the cultural to the political and economic. Nathan Sivin has argued that China indeed had a scientific revolution in the 17th century and that we are still far from understanding the scientific revolutions of the West and China in all their political, economic and social ramifications. John K. Fairbank argued that the Chinese political system was hostile to scientific progress.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...ology_in_China

    As you can see by reading the link above scientific thought in China was at the forefront of the worlds advancment but the political climate in China didn't allow it to procede. There were a great many people that were as advanced as the top scientists today in thinking. They just weren't given the same opportunities due to the political climate.
    "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" - Bertrand Russell
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11 Re: Race and IQ 
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Quote Originally Posted by Heliopolis
    (certain) people have lower IQs than others and that there may even be genetic evidence to find the cause of this.
    So some people are genetically flawed/weak/inferior. I think this true. Perhaps it is clearer to see with the conviction that nobody may act accordingly, but rather on the contrary.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Ph.D. Cat1981(England)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    South Downs.
    Posts
    913
    In defence of Dr Watson he later said this..... (taken from wiki)
    On October 19th, Watson issued an apology, stating that he was "mortified" and "cannot understand how I could have said what I am quoted as having said."[54][55] He also claimed to

    understand why people, reading those words, have reacted in the ways they have ... To all those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologize unreservedly. That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief.[56]
    Saying he wanted to clarify his position, Watson said

    ... we do not yet adequately understand the way in which the different environments in the world have selected over time the genes which determine our capacity to do different things,...
    ... the overwhelming desire of society today is to assume that equal powers of reason are a universal heritage of humanity....
    ... it may well be. But simply wanting this to be the case is not enough. This is not science. To question this is not to give in to racism. This is not a discussion about superiority or inferiority, it is about seeking to understand differences, about why some of us are great musicians and others great engineers.
    It is obviously wrong to say that any race is generally intellectually inferior or superior compared to any other without solid evidence. The chances are though that there will be some small differences generally (not individually) between races. Of course the influence of a culture or sub-culture is likely to have a far greater effect and the influence on a persons intelligence though their upbringing will probable supersede either of the above anyway, so there would still be no justification for racism even if a lower general level of intellect was found for any particular race.

    As for the technological big dick competition, the scientific and technological advancements made by Europe/the west far outway those made by the Chinese, Indian, Islamic or African worlds, especially when you consider the size of the Chinese or Indian populations historically. For example around the time of christ over half the worlds population lived in China alone.

    On a side note, some people consider the Phaistos Disc to be the earliest examples of movable type printing. The Greeks.
    Eat Dolphin, save the Tuna!!!!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,114
    To All

    This is just another example of 'male white chauvinism' as the OT teaches with the lion as the Suns representative.

    The Moon as representing the females and the 'darkies' as inferior is how the OT portrays this issue.

    So it gets down to a conlict between 'fangs and claws' as superior because they can kill the 'hands' (Apes).

    So 'fangs and claws' also representing themselves as brains, use 'hands' for serving themselves because of this superiority.

    Well, in conclusion, I say that our brains are in our HANDS that create all this material wealth that FaC's craves.

    Besides, most people that achieve a degree of subsistence, do not crave any more of anything since they are satisfied with just living.

    So that is the way it is.

    BTW, the current industrial revolution started from a small invention by
    the African Pygmies and their use of a 'tube' to propel a dart.

    So the Romans decided that 'black powder' would be a better substitute for propelling a bullet instead of the dart.

    Cosmo

    .
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •