Thread: animal rights

should animals be given equal or near equal rights to humans, animals seem to be controlled by humans rediculously.
for example when one animal begins to become dominant over another species such as grey squrrels in england, humans seem to think they have the right to play god.

another point, when animals are slaughtered on mass to prevent outbreaks of desease, why is it called 'culling' rather than slaughter, if this method of desease controll was used on humans it would be an attrocity.

if you use the argument that we are more intelligent, then if a super inteligent alien were to come to earth, it would have the right to kill us at whim, by our logic anyway

I would like to hear your oppinionson this.

Originally Posted by dylan

for example when one animal begins to become dominant over another species such as grey squrrels in england, humans seem to think they have the right to play god.

Bare in mind that grey squirrels were introduced to the UK by humans (they were not indigenous), so one argument might be that they are responsible for the imbalance it caused in nature and were, therefore, trying to control it.

another point, when animals are slaughtered on mass to prevent outbreaks of desease, why is it called 'culling' rather than slaughter, if this method of desease controll was used on humans it would be an attrocity.

I think, technically, slaughter is a word used when an animal is made into a carcus that is then to be butchered. So when an animal is killed on mass, not for meat, it is called a cull. Whether it be cows or squirrels.
But yes, if done with humans it would be an atrocity, and arguably it is an atrocity when it comes to animals really. However, no one would eat (and governments would not endorce) disease ridden meat, even after it was 'cured'. So culling is the only way unfortuantely.

if you use the argument that we are more intelligent, then if a super inteligent alien were to come to earth, it would have the right to kill us at whim, by our logic anyway

Quite true. However the word 'inteligent' is a funny one. It comes down to control. Our brains allow us to control other animals and the world around us. We are technically more inteligent. However, that doesnt mean we make the right choices. Our inteligence is born from evolution, not wisdom.

I've always had a soft spot for animals, I've worked as a veterinary assistant for a few years, and have almost always volunteered at animal shelters. I don't think they deserve equal rights to humans though.

You must ask why are humans deserving of rights, from a purely utilitarian standpoint animals are deserving of moral consideration because they can suffer, but they will not suffer if killed painlessly. Human intelligence gives us a greater capacity for suffering then other animals, we suffer from the thought of losing family or even over the death of strangers. We are capable of understanding that we are alive, giving us a much greater consideration.

Moreover, if the culling is not done the disease will spread to other animals and to humans causing even greater damage. If those animals don't realize they are about to be killed, and don't suffer as they are killed, is any harm done?

the fact is, that many 'cullings', as they are called, are not neccesary. many times there are cures for the deseases, but greedy humans find that its cheaper and easier to just kill all the animals instead.

the main thing that gets me angry is how humans play god with animals, the grey squirrel thing was an example, but there are many cases were some species naturaly gain dominance or begin to move to difernt areas and humans interfere.

Well I don't see anything wrong with interefering with nature, because I don't think nature has any moral significance in and of itself. Although, it's awfully pretty .

I'm too anthropocentric >.<

Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy

Well I don't see anything wrong with interefering with nature, because I don't think nature has any moral significance in and of itself. Although, it's awfully pretty .

I'm too anthropocentric >.<

i do see something wrong with interfering with nature,
even if you look at it from a purely anthropocentric view, humans are nothing without nature, and if we interfere we will upset the ballance. we have allready caused much harm to the planet, which is allready backfireing on ourselves.

i dont know your religious veiws, but as an athiest i beleave that if we ruin this planet, no one will come allong to fix it.

I once read a book about animal emotions, where the author was making a case for the existence of animal emotions (as tiredsleepy said, their ability to suffer), and therefore why animals should be treated equally with humans. The author said that he liked to approach people who do animal testing, and ask them, "Would you do that to your dog?"

I have no doubt that animals experience emotion in their own right, and most certainly can suffer. Though it is likely that we humans have a greater capacity for suffering, as tiredsleepy also said, until we have a better understanding of exactly what animals do and do not experience, we can't really be sure if they are or are not capable of suffering as much as we can.

That being said, my answer to the author's question (as biomedical animal testing is more or less what I do for a living these days), would be to ask him this: A human child and a puppy are drowning in a river. Who do you save first?

The point is that whatever the reasoning or the logic behind it, we humans will always value ourselves and other members of our species more than we will other animals. We can value other animals very very highly, but not as much as we will other people. I am all for taking the time and effort to find ways to treat animals as humanely as possible and to do as little damage to the natural world as possible, but human well being will still always come first. Which means that sustainable practices for the conservation of our planet definitely deserve a priority because every organism on the planet will benefit from it.

why is it that culling is necessary to contain diseases within animal species when with the use of vaccinations could elimanate the disease in most cases. imagine if the same ethics were used on people ie aids etc. most diseases in animals are caused by mass farming methods .as for thecomment about animals not realizeing they are going to be killed ,that is untrue animals show fear and panick when they arrive at slaughter houses,they do show love and affection to their own species this is why they put their own lives at risk to save their young just like humans.

I completely agree that animals get the shorter end of the stick here. I've seen what they do to animals in slaughter houses what with the bleeding out of cows and such. It's horrible and if a human was treated in the same manner we would be calling it torcher and the person who committed the acts would go down as the most heinous mass murderer in history.

I think that the reason why these medicines aren't used on animals in some cases is because of the monetary value of the medicine. I'm fairly certain that some medcines would be more expensive than the cows they are treating. Farmers aren't exactly rolling in the dough and the cost of medicine builds up over time. Perhaps the government should step in and provide assistance? However if this happened I'm sure that people would be up in arms about how they don't want to pay the extra money in terms of bills to inoculate these animals.

Originally Posted by dylan

why is it that culling is necessary to contain diseases within animal species when with the use of vaccinations could elimanate the disease in most cases. imagine if the same ethics were used on people ie aids etc. most diseases in animals are caused by mass farming methods.

Number 1, vaccination of wild animal populations is expensive, difficult, and potentially stressful for the animals depending on how the vaccine needs to be delivered. Imagine if you had to stalk, dart, and inject a vaccine into every member of the population, or at least as many as you could. In the unlikely event that the vaccine can be effective through ingestion, you could try leaving food out for the animals, but there's no guarantee they'd all eat it, or that some other animals who shouldn't be eating it will take a bite.

Number 2, most medical research that would result in such vaccines in a timely manner (in other words, before the disease gets completely out of control) focuses on human diseases, or diseases that effect animals and plants humans highly depend on - food animals and plants, obviously.

Number 3, culling is also done for reasons besides disease. In South Africa, their elephants are better protected from poaching than in other countries, but there is still a lack of natural predators and their elephant populations are exploding. And the country probably doesn't have the spare resources to devote to finding new homes and relocating that many elephants to other reserves and/or zoos.

Number 4, all these points may be unfair, but they are the unfortunate truth. This is why research on sustainable and environmentally friendly practices and wild animal conservation is important, in order to try and prevent the need for culls in the first place.

as for thecomment about animals not realizeing they are going to be killed ,that is untrue animals show fear and panick when they arrive at slaughter houses

Only if they have prior experience with that place as a slaughter house. Many ranches, especially in industrialized countries, do their best to make slaughter as quick and stress-free for the animals as possible, for example taking care to never let the animals see or smell the slaughtering area until the last possible moment. It's actually in the industry's interest to do this, because high levels of stress hormone at the time of death make the meat taste bad. Granted not all places do this yet, but things are changing and it will most likely be a required standard in the future.

Originally Posted by BumFluff

I think that the reason why these medicines aren't used on animals in some cases is because of the monetary value of the medicine. I'm fairly certain that some medcines would be more expensive than the cows they are treating. Farmers aren't exactly rolling in the dough and the cost of medicine builds up over time. Perhaps the government should step in and provide assistance? However if this happened I'm sure that people would be up in arms about how they don't want to pay the extra money in terms of bills to inoculate these animals.

I find this amusing, as it is standard practice in many ranches to use antibiotics to try and keep the cattle disease free, yet many people protest being served meat from animals that have been fed all sorts of "unnatural" things. Everyone wants the best of both worlds, it seems. Not to mention the fact that, as I mentioned above, cattle etc receive far more medical attention than do the vast majority of wild populations of animals.

And all those possibly valuable antibiotics are becomming useless as the massive overuse is producing several resistant strains.

Originally Posted by paralith

I find this amusing, as it is standard practice in many ranches to use antibiotics to try and keep the cattle disease free, yet many people protest being served meat from animals that have been fed all sorts of "unnatural" things. Everyone wants the best of both worlds, it seems. Not to mention the fact that, as I mentioned above, cattle etc receive far more medical attention than do the vast majority of wild populations of animals.

You know what bleeding out is right? That's when the cattle are hung upside down, still alive, when their throats are slit so the majority of the blood within it runs out. You can find it as amusing as you want, I don't really care myself. I don't admit to being in the know about all the ins and outs of how farmers and such take care of their cattle. I do know that which my vegetarian friends tell me why they are vegetarian and the attrocities carried out on animals before they reach our dinner plate.

I actually had a friend once who worked in a slaughter house and she told me that the guys there enjoyed breaking the legs of the chickens for fun. And yet no one did anything about it. I find it rather bothersome myself.

Originally Posted by BumFluff

You know what bleeding out is right? That's when the cattle are hung upside down, still alive, when their throats are slit so the majority of the blood within it runs out. You can find it as amusing as you want, I don't really care myself. I don't admit to being in the know about all the ins and outs of how farmers and such take care of their cattle. I do know that which my vegetarian friends tell me why they are vegetarian and the attrocities carried out on animals before they reach our dinner plate.

I actually had a friend once who worked in a slaughter house and she told me that the guys there enjoyed breaking the legs of the chickens for fun. And yet no one did anything about it. I find it rather bothersome myself.

Ya there is a pretty good documentary on slaughterhouses called "The Peaceable Kingdom" it's a lil hippieish and kinda dated but it's eye opening. I think the worse practice is the removal of the beaks of chickens, 1/100 chicks dies from shock and they had film of the piles of little yellow chicks in the dumpsters out back.

Those are factory farming practices though, if you buy from local farmers you can get humanely slaughtered meat. People are willing to sacrifice the comfort of animals for cheap meat though, blame McDonalds.

Edit: Just for fun

The Pig


In England once there lived a big
And wonderfully clever pig.
To everybody it was plain
That Piggy had a massive brain.
He worked out sums inside his head,
There was no book he hadn't read.
He knew what made an airplane fly,
He knew how engines worked and why.
He knew all this, but in the end
One question drove him round the bend:
He simply couldn't puzzle out
What LIFE was really all about.
What was the reason for his birth?
Why was he placed upon this earth?
His giant brain went round and round.
Alas, no answer could be found.
Till suddenly one wondrous night.
All in a flash he saw the light.
He jumped up like a ballet dancer
And yelled, "By gum, I've got the answer!"
"They want my bacon slice by slice
"To sell at a tremendous price!
"They want my tender juicy chops
"To put in all the butcher's shops!
"They want my pork to make a roast
"And that's the part'll cost the most!
"They want my sausages in strings!
"They even want my chitterlings!
"The butcher's shop! The carving knife!
"That is the reason for my life!"
Such thoughts as these are not designed
To give a pig great piece of mind.
Next morning, in comes Farmer Bland,
A pail of pigswill in his hand,
And piggy with a mighty roar,
Bashes the farmer to the floor…
Now comes the rather grizzly bit
So let's not make too much of it,
Except that you must understand
That Piggy did eat Farmer Bland,
He ate him up from head to toe,
Chewing the pieces nice and slow.
It took an hour to reach the feet,
Because there was so much to eat,
And when he finished, Pig, of course,
Felt absolutely no remorse.
Slowly he scratched his brainy head
And with a little smile he said,
"I had a fairly powerful hunch
"That he might have me for his lunch.
"And so, because I feared the worst,
"I thought I'd better eat him first."

Roald Dahl

Originally Posted by BumFluff

You know what bleeding out is right? That's when the cattle are hung upside down, still alive, when their throats are slit so the majority of the blood within it runs out. You can find it as amusing as you want, I don't really care myself. I don't admit to being in the know about all the ins and outs of how farmers and such take care of their cattle. I do know that which my vegetarian friends tell me why they are vegetarian and the attrocities carried out on animals before they reach our dinner plate.

I actually had a friend once who worked in a slaughter house and she told me that the guys there enjoyed breaking the legs of the chickens for fun. And yet no one did anything about it. I find it rather bothersome myself.

You do realize I wasn't saying I find the slaughter of animals funny, right? The quote from you that I responded to didn't mention bleeding out at all. That's a clue that I wasn't talking about it.

I merely thought it ironic that you wanted more medical inoculation of cows when many people object to such a thing as adding unnatural and undesirable substances to their food. And as tiredsleepy mentioned, over-use of antibiotics is actually a serious problem.

I'm not saying slaughter everywhere is done in the most humane way possible. Of course it isn't. But there is an increasing trend for it, especially in western countries. Slaughter in principle is not nearly as distressful for animals if done with care. In many ways it's a more desirable end than a harrowing chase by a predator who may not take care that you are dead before it starts to eat you.

would you prefer to be eaten by a preditor who is only eating you to continue living themselves,
or that your only reason for being alive is so that some more inteligent creature can eat you even though they could live very easily not doing, and have most of your carcass be wasted anyway.

Originally Posted by qwertyman

would you prefer to be eaten by a preditor who is only eating you to continue living themselves,
or that your only reason for being alive is so that some more inteligent creature can eat you even though they could live very easily not doing, and have most of your carcass be wasted anyway.

of course, this question could read:

would you prefer to be eaten by a preditor who will forcefully drag you to the ground, injuring you nastily in the process, then slowly choke you to death with a prolonged bite of the throat. Or, that your only reason for being alive is so that some more inteligent creature who, regardless of what he will do with your corpse, will give you an easy and cared for life then kill you in quickest, most painless way possible.

:wink:

people keep saying animals are killed kindly, but it is sadly not the case there are horible people around, people like Bumfluff mentioned, who would break chikens legs for fun, people who will remove a chicks beak. what about the cattle who are hung up and bled, while still alive.
slighty different but what about the cruel people who drown puppies or kittens because they cant/wont look after them,even though the RSPCA would gladly help.

it's a fair point you make, qwertyman. However, I would think, or atleast hope, that such people are the minority case.
British slaughter standards are very strict and as much effort as possible is made to reduce the stress and pain to the animals. We can't control all people all the time, but we can implement procedure. If one decides that eating meat is acceptible, then kudos to those who want to be as respectful as possible to those they kill and eat.

It is the result of people like Bumfluff's friend who know evil things happen, yet do nothing about it, who are making it even harder for animal rights bodies to maintain 'ethical' standards and crack down on the evil doings of a few sadists.

edit: I don't want my comment about bumfluff's freind to be seen as a dig or a flame. I'm just saying it's easy to judge and say you care. It's harder to do something about it.

Originally Posted by qwertyman

people keep saying animals are killed kindly,

Originally Posted by paralith

I'm not saying slaughter everywhere is done in the most humane way possible. Of course it isn't. But there is an increasing trend for it, especially in western countries. Slaughter in principle is not nearly as distressful for animals if done with care. In many ways it's a more desirable end than a harrowing chase by a predator who may not take care that you are dead before it starts to eat you.

Please, people - actually read the thread with a little bit of care before you post.

Originally Posted by qwertyman

would you prefer to be eaten by a preditor who is only eating you to continue living themselves,
or that your only reason for being alive is so that some more inteligent creature can eat you even though they could live very easily not doing, and have most of your carcass be wasted anyway.

Would I prefer it? Probably, because as an animal with advanced cognitive abilities I can think about what might be done to me after I am dead and care about it, let alone care why different parties might want to kill me.

Most animals, and very probably all commercial food animals, do not have the cognitive capacity to understand or care about who is killing them, why they're doing it, and what will happen to their body afterwards. They only know that they don't want to die.

Originally Posted by UKDutyPaid

it's a fair point you make, qwertyman. However, I would think, or atleast hope, that such people are the minority case.
British slaughter standards are very strict and as much effort as possible is made to reduce the stress and pain to the animals. We can't control all people all the time, but we can implement procedure. If one decides that eating meat is acceptible, then kudos to those who want to be as respectful as possible to those they kill and eat.

It is the result of people like Bumfluff's friend who know evil things happen, yet do nothing about it, who are making it even harder for animal rights bodies to maintain 'ethical' standards and crack down on the evil doings of a few sadists.

edit: I don't want my comment about bumfluff's freind to be seen as a dig or a flame. I'm just saying it's easy to judge and say you care. It's harder to do something about it.

I live in Canada. My step father was the manager of the turkey board of BC before he retired. He was very proud of the fact that all turkey are, by law, treated humanely and killed humanely across our province. I'm not sure if these people broke these chickens legs before this law came out or how long this law has been in effect but sometimes things slip through the cracks of the justice system.

MY point is that even though yoru countries standards may be very strict most likely there is still far too much being let go because Canada's laws are strict as well.

Originally Posted by BumFluff

I live in Canada. My step father was the manager of the turkey board of BC before he retired. He was very proud of the fact that all turkey are, by law, treated humanely and killed humanely across our province. I'm not sure if these people broke these chickens legs before this law came out or how long this law has been in effect but sometimes things slip through the cracks of the justice system.

MY point is that even though yoru countries standards may be very strict most likely there is still far too much being let go because Canada's laws are strict as well.

RCMP officers in BC taiser Polish immigrants to death, so I'd say BC has bigger issues to be dealt with first. No system will ever be perfect, it is just not cost effective, or worth it, to heavily police butchery.

Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy

Originally Posted by BumFluff

I live in Canada. My step father was the manager of the turkey board of BC before he retired. He was very proud of the fact that all turkey are, by law, treated humanely and killed humanely across our province. I'm not sure if these people broke these chickens legs before this law came out or how long this law has been in effect but sometimes things slip through the cracks of the justice system.

MY point is that even though yoru countries standards may be very strict most likely there is still far too much being let go because Canada's laws are strict as well.

RCMP officers in BC taiser Polish immigrants to death, so I'd say BC has bigger issues to be dealt with first. No system will ever be perfect, it is just not cost effective, or worth it, to heavily police butchery.

If you're referring to the incident that I recall being on the news I believe it was an accident which is the reason why tasers are being put in the spotlight in BC and so many people have turned against them.

Originally Posted by BumFluff

Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy

Originally Posted by BumFluff

I live in Canada. My step father was the manager of the turkey board of BC before he retired. He was very proud of the fact that all turkey are, by law, treated humanely and killed humanely across our province. I'm not sure if these people broke these chickens legs before this law came out or how long this law has been in effect but sometimes things slip through the cracks of the justice system.

MY point is that even though yoru countries standards may be very strict most likely there is still far too much being let go because Canada's laws are strict as well.

RCMP officers in BC taiser Polish immigrants to death, so I'd say BC has bigger issues to be dealt with first. No system will ever be perfect, it is just not cost effective, or worth it, to heavily police butchery.

If you're referring to the incident that I recall being on the news I believe it was an accident which is the reason why tasers are being put in the spotlight in BC and so many people have turned against them.

Yes it was quite the accident to taser an unarmed man 6 times until he had a heart attack o.O because he was throwing chairs around in an airport.

The point is that bad things will always happen, and the spotlight will never be put on slaughtering practices until we can at least eliminate the brutality being performed on humans in our society.

Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy

Yes it was quite the accident to taser an unarmed man 6 times until he had a heart attack o.O because he was throwing chairs around in an airport.

The point is that bad things will always happen, and the spotlight will never be put on slaughtering practices until we can at least eliminate the brutality being performed on humans in our society.

Ok it was a different incident then. If his death was intentional I'm fairly certain that charges would be laid on the perpetrator as has been done in the past in BC (and Canada) when a police officer oversteps his bounds resulting in death. As I'm unaware of the incident however I am not to sure of why he was tasered 6 times or if charges were actually laid.

Originally Posted by BumFluff

Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy

Yes it was quite the accident to taser an unarmed man 6 times until he had a heart attack o.O because he was throwing chairs around in an airport.

The point is that bad things will always happen, and the spotlight will never be put on slaughtering practices until we can at least eliminate the brutality being performed on humans in our society.

Ok it was a different incident then. If his death was intentional I'm fairly certain that charges would be laid on the perpetrator as has been done in the past in BC (and Canada) when a police officer oversteps his bounds resulting in death. As I'm unaware of the incident however I am not to sure of why he was tasered 6 times or if charges were actually laid.

Improper training, the police probably weren't aware of the damage that could be done with a taser. Apparently people die all the time from being tasered, it just doesn't make the news.

I'm firmly opposed to animal rights, and should care less about animal welfare. Yet... I like it. In the same way, being atheist, I like to see religious beliefs in others.

Why. Because a person's empathy for animals is an excellent indicator of their "human goodness".

Everybody holding different beliefs, coming from different backgrounds, society's a jungle and I can't tell where a lot of people stand. Neither can they, tell. A lot of folks simply hold no articulate beliefs when scratched beneath the surface; you can't very well query them, test them. They are running on inborn traits & instincts. Crude, yeah, but that's the best most of us - including me - can do.

Gandhi said, "You can judge people by the way they treat their animals."

In other words, people betray their capacity for - or lack of - "human" empathy, by their visible feelings towards animals. Especially our fellow mammals. It is well known that some of the worst criminals delighted in torturing pets. Everybody knows there's something sketchy about that kid who... well, I guess we've all known a few in our lifetimes.

We needn't be rational about this. It's hardwired (or should be). It's patently irrational, it's the way we are, and it works great. So when people try to ground their feelings about animal welfare through "animal rights" morally, this is nuts, IMHO. They might as well rationalize why they should like big breasted women, or garlic, or hate spiders. We can feel strongly and be motivated by many things, that require no explanation. In the case of our empathy for animals, we might do better to accept it while scrupulously avoiding pretensions of its rationality. It pays better when it doesn't win debates.

Still, I'm reassured seeing people worked up about "why" we should be kind to animals.

Got up this morning, killed some germs when I gargled and washed. Fried up a couple of one-celled chickens. I walked out the door and in doing so crushed a few ants. I then started up the lawnmower and cut some live grass and weeds, accidentally killing many grasshoppers, and other insects. Planted a shrub but when I dug, I cut some worms in half unintentionally. A mosquito landed on my arm so I smacked it and it writhed around a bit. Went back in the house and a fly followed me in so I splattered it with my flyswatter. My body's immune system keeps killing off microbes. Drove to the hardware store and unfortunately some insects died on my windshield, not to mention the poor squirrel who ran under my car. Let's see, I went fishing, did in some minnows and crayfish. Caught a couple nice bass that now reside in my freezer. I suppose some of the garbage I throw out, stuff I wash down the drain, gas emissions from my car and an assortment of other bad habits contribute to the deaths of several organisms in a day. I used to kill a few of my own cells by over-indulging with alcohol and cigarettes.

In one day, I figure I am either directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of several thousand organisms. Steak tonite!

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Got up this morning, killed some germs when I gargled and washed. Fried up a couple of one-celled chickens. I walked out the door and in doing so crushed a few ants. I then started up the lawnmower and cut some live grass and weeds, accidentally killing many grasshoppers, and other insects. Planted a shrub but when I dug, I cut some worms in half unintentionally. A mosquito landed on my arm so I smacked it and it writhed around a bit. Went back in the house and a fly followed me in so I splattered it with my flyswatter. My body's immune system keeps killing off microbes. Drove to the hardware store and unfortunately some insects died on my windshield, not to mention the poor squirrel who ran under my car. Let's see, I went fishing, did in some minnows and crayfish. Caught a couple nice bass that now reside in my freezer. I suppose some of the garbage I throw out, stuff I wash down the drain, gas emissions from my car and an assortment of other bad habits contribute to the deaths of several organisms in a day. I used to kill a few of my own cells by over-indulging with alcohol and cigarettes.

In one day, I figure I am either directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of several thousand organisms. Steak tonite!

Actually you are killing thousands of your cells every minute. You murderer

it is time for a full re_evaluation of our role on this planet. Aa a scientist,there is no proof available that we are more important than the rest of the sentient creatures on this planet. As a human being...in my heart, i know that the terrible indignities and pain sufferered by these pitiful animals are unjustifiable in humanitarian terms This was written by Brian May in support of Animal Rights Icould not agree more

it is time for a full re_evaluation of our role on this planet. Aa a scientist,there is no proof available that we are more important than the rest of the sentient creatures on this planet. As a human being...in my heart, i know that the terrible indignities and pain sufferered by these pitiful animals are unjustifiable in humanitarian terms This was written by Brian May in support of Animal Rights Icould not agree more