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Thread: Love

  1. #1 Love 
    Forum Masters Degree organic god's Avatar
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    I have experienced love in my life, just got out of a relationship where we both loved eachother but she had to concentrate on school.
    it was painful and it made me wonder why human beings love.

    it seems such an odd thing to have evolved, or perhaps it has always been there.
    but reading about neanderthals they don't seem to love, the main aim is too reproduce as much as possible. surely love gets in the way of this?


    everything is mathematical.
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  3. #2  
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    Love means commitment. When people reproduce but don't commit to eachother then they probably wont commit to their offspring either. Such offspring will have to mature fast to take care of itself. In developped countries human children get up to 20 years or even more to slowly develop themselves, because their parents usually stay together and take care of them. I think this long, slow development allows humans to eventually reach such high levels of intelligence and skill. Without love such longterm commitment would be very hard to maintain, in a way the good feelings that come with love are the reward for commitment.

    Ofcourse a lot of humans love eachother while they don't reproduce yet, but I guess that's mostly a modern concept (effective anticonception is a recent invention). So in a way we cheat: we take the rewards for commitment long before we commit to children :wink:

    The next question may be whether other animals can also feel love, as some species clearly commit to eachother and to their offspring as well. Maybe not as long as humans, but for example apes and elephants seem to invest a lot of energy and effort into their offspring. Perhaps they too 'feel good' when they're in eachother's company, which could be called a basic form of love.


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  4. #3  
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    The next question may be whether other animals can also feel love, as some species clearly commit to eachother and to their offspring as well. Maybe not as long as humans, but for example apes and elephants seem to invest a lot of energy and effort into their offspring. Perhaps they too 'feel good' when they're in eachother's company, which could be called a basic form of love.
    I agree with this, but there are a lot of people that would call it outrageous. Oh well, what can you do?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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  5. #4  
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    To add to Pendragon's excellent post, the human analog of love (that is, affection for your mate who is an individual unrelated to you) in other animals would have to be what is called pair bonding. Pair bonding is necessary when the specifics of raising offspring in a given environment are so challenging that the full commitment of both parents is usually the best route to success. Take the now-famous emperor penguins. To successfully hatch one chick definitely requires the cooperation of both parents. Human offspring are particularly needy compared to other mammalian young, so parental commitment is important for their success.

    Similarly, the amount of attachment an individual of a given species feels for his/her offspring is probably related to the amount of care required to successfully raise them. Once the offspring are self-sufficient, for many species this attachment ends. But if there is further adaptive advantage to maintaining a bond with your adult offspring, then it may not end with self-sufficiency.

    To take a primate example, baboon females stay in the group they were born in and form strong bonds with their female relatives. All the females in the group form a strict hierarchy, and when it comes to aggressive interactions and hierarchy disputes, your relatives are the first ones who come running to help you, including your adult daughters. Baboon mothers experience a skyrocketing of stress hormones when one of their adult daughters dies.

    Likewise, the core of an elephant social group is a matriarch and her daughters and all their offspring. I have little doubt that the matriarch forms a strong bond with her adult daughters, and they with her.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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  6. #5  
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    I love love.

    It really does make the world go round. And i have found every relationship and friendship i have based on love are each unique and individual.

    It is difficult to give love a proper definition because of this, but of course the same qualities of caring about each other exists.

    Personally i find the idea of exclusivity of love strange.

    And i think it is good to have as big a circle of people as possible to love ( i am not talking about sex here! For once 8) )
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  7. #6  
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    so do people think animals love? or is it pair bonding trying to make help there offspring/society survive.

    love seems such a strange thing to have evolved? considering examples where people in love dont reproduce, or perhaps they fall in love but one person is infertile, they stay in love. seems to go against evolution
    everything is mathematical.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    so do people think animals love? or is it pair bonding trying to make help there offspring/society survive.

    love seems such a strange thing to have evolved? considering examples where people in love dont reproduce, or perhaps they fall in love but one person is infertile, they stay in love. seems to go against evolution
    Evolution works on averages. On average, if mates who love each other tend to pass on their genes more successfully than mates who don't love each other, then over time love will become the dominant behavior in the population. There will always be variation across the individuals of the population in how love is expressed and whether or not it actually contributes to reproductive success for each and every individual.

    Love is pair bonding. We humans are probably on a more extreme end of the scale, but it's still the same scale.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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  9. #8  
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    I don't think love is just some sort of aphrodisiac. But, I'm a romantic so, what the hell.
    Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils ... - Louis Hector Berlioz
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  10. #9  
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    perhaps its this feeling that allows us to reproduce more effectively

    mabye its this compassion and team work that allows our offsring to go to matureity and then reproduce
    Why do you stand around agrueing about the existence of gods and the truths of man while your beloved world tears itself apart with hate, anger, ignorance and fear?

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    As such, their worst enemy is a smart hunter.
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  11. #10  
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    You make love sound so cold. Do animals feel it? They are perfectly capable of creating offspring.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  12. #11  
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    Love isn't all that crucial to evolution.

    LONG VERSION: Love is merely a byproduct of the biological machine in addition to basic elements of human interaction. Neither sharks nor viruses nor cockroaches feel love, and they do just fine. Essentially, love is nothing more than a kind of chemical/emotional residue that causes varying levels of euphoria. Beyond that, the concept of love is just bad science.

    The bond that is formed between two human beings is a thing of complex material; physical attraction, mutual affection, shared vulnerabilities, friendship, trust, loyalty, commitment, social acceptance, ...contract agreements etc.. - Any time a relationship consist of two or more ingredients (which is almost all the time) then the whole process becomes too categorically complex. Nobody ever really wants to take the time to analyze the dynamics involved. So instead, we use the word "Love" as a default term that covers all bases in one swift stroke. But the word "Love" itself exist purely in the abstract.






    SHORT VERSON: Love is for poets.
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  13. #12  
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    I don't know where i'd be without love in my life

    Sane?
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  14. #13 Re: Love 
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    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    I have experienced love in my life, just got out of a relationship where we both loved eachother but she had to concentrate on school.
    it was painful and it made me wonder why human beings love.

    it seems such an odd thing to have evolved, or perhaps it has always been there.
    but reading about neanderthals they don't seem to love, the main aim is too reproduce as much as possible. surely love gets in the way of this?
    Love is the 'euphoria' that the males get from these encounters. The females, of course, get the final product.

    It is because of this euphoria that most sex crimes are committed like spousal murders, rapes, pedophilia and the perversions like homosexuality, lesbianism and masturbation.

    I hate to put it so bluntly but it is the truth.

    Love is good, but hate is bad and the driving force of all evils in our social environments.

    Cosmo
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  15. #14 Re: Love 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo

    Love is the 'euphoria' that the males get from these encounters. The females, of course, get the final product.

    It is because of this euphoria that most sex crimes are committed like spousal murders, rapes, pedophilia and the perversions like homosexuality, lesbianism and masturbation.

    I hate to put it so bluntly but it is the truth.

    Love is good, but hate is bad and the driving force of all evils in our social environments.

    Cosmo
    Woooaaa! Hang on a minute Cosmo

    Who says girls don't find sex euphoric as much as a guy?

    Females get the final product? Sex isn't exclusive to making babies

    It's a damn fine pleasurable past-time as well!

    And what's wrong with masturbation???????

    Let me tell you from one of the horse's mouths!

    Most girls love sex and experience euphoria when they practice it without wanting an 'end product' except ecstatic bliss and a good snooze in the arms of our lover with a big smile on our fizzogs!

    Masturbation isn't BAD! The attitude towards it that says it's bad is more BAD!

    So there!
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  16. #15 Re: Love 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    It is because of this euphoria that most sex crimes are committed like spousal murders, rapes, pedophilia and the perversions like homosexuality, lesbianism and masturbation.
    1. You are a bigoted homophobe, Cosmo. Homosexuality and masturbation are not perversions and I'll be happy to debate you all day about that.

    2. Are you saying that love is the source of sex crimes and sexual perversion?

    Love is good,
    Uh....what about all those sex crimes and perversions the euphoria of love causes? Are you saying sex crimes are good, Cosmo?

    but hate is bad and the driving force of all evils in our social environments.
    Take a page from your own book and learn to not hate people whose sexual orientation is different from yours.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  17. #16 Re: Love 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo

    Love is the 'euphoria' that the males get from these encounters. The females, of course, get the final product.

    It is because of this euphoria that most sex crimes are committed like spousal murders, rapes, pedophilia and the perversions like homosexuality, lesbianism and masturbation.

    I hate to put it so bluntly but it is the truth.

    Love is good, but hate is bad and the driving force of all evils in our social environments.

    Cosmo
    Woooaaa! Hang on a minute Cosmo

    Who says girls don't find sex euphoric as much as a guy?

    Females get the final product? Sex isn't exclusive to making babies

    It's a damn fine pleasurable past-time as well!

    And what's wrong with masturbation???????

    Let me tell you from one of the horse's mouths!

    Most girls love sex and experience euphoria when they practice it without wanting an 'end product' except ecstatic bliss and a good snooze in the arms of our lover with a big smile on our fizzogs!

    Masturbation isn't BAD! The attitude towards it that says it's bad is more BAD!

    So there!
    When I speak of love, I am talking about the relationship between man and woman.

    All others, IMO, are either crimes or perversions and primarilty driven by the 'euphoria'

    Cosmo

    .
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  18. #17 Re: Love 
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    [quote="paralith"]
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    It is because of this euphoria that most sex crimes are committed like spousal murders, rapes, pedophilia and the perversions like homosexuality, lesbianism and masturbation.
    1. You are a bigoted homophobe, Cosmo. Homosexuality and masturbation are not perversions and I'll be happy to debate you all day about that.

    2. Are you saying that love is the source of sex crimes and sexual perversion?
    No. I said that the 'euphoria' is the driving force here.
    In spousal murders though, love is the cause since in most cases, it involves adultary.


    Love is good,
    Uh....what about all those sex crimes and perversions the euphoria of love causes? Are you saying sex crimes are good, Cosmo?
    No. But in those cases, it does not involve love but the euphoria that motivates the perpretators.

    but hate is bad and the driving force of all evils in our social environments.
    Take a page from your own book and learn to not hate people whose sexual orientation is different from yours.
    I do not personally hate. I understand that this driving force is the most powerful in nature, so I can excuse those people, except the criminals involved.

    Cosmo
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  19. #18  
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    It just occurred to me that, if all guys were emotionally disconnected - like "low EQ" - then gals would be so temped to manipulate them, by selling themselves physically. Just a thought.
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  20. #19 Re: Love 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo

    Love is the 'euphoria' that the males get from these encounters. The females, of course, get the final product.

    It is because of this euphoria that most sex crimes are committed like spousal murders, rapes, pedophilia and the perversions like homosexuality, lesbianism and masturbation.

    I hate to put it so bluntly but it is the truth.

    Love is good, but hate is bad and the driving force of all evils in our social environments.

    Cosmo
    Woooaaa! Hang on a minute Cosmo

    Who says girls don't find sex euphoric as much as a guy?

    Females get the final product? Sex isn't exclusive to making babies

    It's a damn fine pleasurable past-time as well!

    And what's wrong with masturbation???????

    Let me tell you from one of the horse's mouths!

    Most girls love sex and experience euphoria when they practice it without wanting an 'end product' except ecstatic bliss and a good snooze in the arms of our lover with a big smile on our fizzogs!

    Masturbation isn't BAD! The attitude towards it that says it's bad is more BAD!

    So there!
    When I speak of love, I am talking about the relationship between man and woman.

    All others, IMO, are either crimes or perversions and primarilty driven by the 'euphoria'

    Cosmo

    .
    But love and sex between a man can be euphoric (hopefully!)

    Perhaps you mean crimes or perversions are driven by some other primitive drive like an unconscious urge, which of course we all have, but the perpetrator doesn't have a degree of control for the urge.

    I think such crimes, like rape for example, are more complicated than just primarily a sexual urge seeking euphoria. Often rape is a form of domination.

    I remember a very placid schoolfriend of mine was prisoned for some aggressive rapes after we left school. Everyone was shocked and so was i but part of me understood because i met his mother and she was a control freak and very domineering and i know it gave him a lot of problems.

    No excuse though of course, but certainly does make up part of the recipe i think.

    Anyway Lesbianism and homosexuality are not perverted!
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  21. #20 Re: Love 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    No. I said that the 'euphoria' is the driving force here.
    In spousal murders though, love is the cause since in most cases, it involves adultary.
    Cosmo we want referenced studies for this notion of yours - put up or shut up, as it were.

    I say this because most organisations involved in spousal abuse/murder cases are quite clear as to the root causes - they're mostly committed by men, and they're mostly committed out of frustrated possessiveness - the men in question cannot bear that their spouses have minds of their own and would like to make their own choices.

    What you say is not just unsupported by the evidence, but a perversion of the idea of love - you're not using the same definition we are. Worse, you're confusing your moral stances with empirical science.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    Anyway Lesbianism and homosexuality are not perverted!
    The males 'biological' urge is done with a female even though the intent is not necessarily for reproduction.
    So, IMO, that is the natural way and socially acceptible.

    BUT, the religious crazies outlaw GODs Natural way (prostitution) that only contributes to these perversions that they preach against.

    I have come to understand an excuse for lesbianism.
    It could be a way for healing the after effects of a viagra connection that was time extended that the female had an injured vagina?
    So this practice than is done to heal? Ha ha.

    No, all kidding aside, I believe in Nature as my GOD. So I can only recommend the natural way and these religious crazies have outlawed it.
    For Shame on them!

    Cosmo
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    Anyway Lesbianism and homosexuality are not perverted!
    The males 'biological' urge is done with a female even though the intent is not necessarily for reproduction.
    So, IMO, that is the natural way and socially acceptible.

    BUT, the religious crazies outlaw GODs Natural way (prostitution) that only contributes to these perversions that they preach against.

    I have come to understand an excuse for lesbianism.
    It could be a way for healing the after effects of a viagra connection that was time extended that the female had an injured vagina?
    So this practice than is done to heal? Ha ha.

    No, all kidding aside, I believe in Nature as my GOD. So I can only recommend the natural way and these religious crazies have outlawed it.
    For Shame on them!

    Cosmo
    Naturalistic fallacy.

    Please also address the objections I have raised above to the non-coherent nature of your posts here.
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  24. #23 Re: Love 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    2. Are you saying that love is the source of sex crimes and sexual perversion?
    No. I said that the 'euphoria' is the driving force here.
    No, that's not what you said. This is what you said.

    Love is the 'euphoria' that the males get from these encounters. (emphasis mine- paralith)
    If love is euphoria then euphoria is love and you are blaming love for sexual crimes. Get your story straight.

    In spousal murders though, love is the cause since in most cases, it involves adultary.
    Is that love, or is that jealousy? As a mentally stable person, do you kill the people you truly love? Is the adulterer experiencing love or lust and a lack of love for their partner?


    No. But in those cases, it does not involve love but the euphoria that motivates the perpretators.
    Here we go again. Is love euphoria, as you yourself said? Does love cause euphoria? Is the euphoria actually a separate thing from love if this type of euphoria is only ever experienced when love is also experienced? Or are you talking about simple sexual lust? As sunshine warrior said, you really need to clarify your terms because you appear to be switching up your definitions as suits your fancy.

    I do not personally hate. I understand that this driving force is the most powerful in nature, so I can excuse those people, except the criminals involved.
    Ha. While I understand that what you yourself do or do not hate should not be an issue in a scientifically objective discussion, I can't help but point out that thinking of certain sexual orientations as perversions is certainly evidence of a very healthy dislike, if not all out hate. Neither of which have a place in your idea of a perfect world, so I find you to be rather hypocritical.

    The males 'biological' urge is done with a female even though the intent is not necessarily for reproduction.
    You're assuming that there is no biological reason why a person would be sexually attracted to a member of their own gender, which is an incorrect assumption to make. Also, you're now talking about biological "urges" - are you still talking about love? Are you now talking about lust? Or are you talking about the desire to have children?

    BUT, the religious crazies outlaw GODs Natural way (prostitution) that only contributes to these perversions that they preach against.
    ... god's natural way is prostitution? What?

    I have come to understand an excuse for lesbianism.
    It could be a way for healing the after effects of a viagra connection that was time extended that the female had an injured vagina?
    So this practice than is done to heal? Ha ha.
    This is assuming lesbians do not stimulate each other's vaginas during sex, and this is yet another incorrect assumption to make.

    So, IMO, that is the natural way and socially acceptible.
    ...
    No, all kidding aside, I believe in Nature as my GOD. So I can only recommend the natural way and these religious crazies have outlawed it.
    I repeat shanks' admonition of naturalistic fallacy. What is natural is by no means necessarily morally right. Cosmo, it's natural for a male to desire to kill an unfamiliar female's infant, so that he can both remove a future competitor for his own offspring, and mate with that female much sooner than he could have if she was still in lactational amenorrhea. Should we allow step fathers to kill their stepchildren because it is only natural?
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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    Inane argument Cosmo, sorry.

    Love is an emotion and goes beyond the physical.

    Man and woman are more than just body.

    People can love and 'make love' without even touching each other physically.

    So on that basis, as this thread is about love

    Love between two men, two women, man/woman and animal or even man/woman and plant, is perfectly natural!

    Yet real love embraces all the dimensions of a being, therefore the physical is just another facet and expression to explore.

    If two men fall in love with one another and they are compatible and there is the urge for sexual contact, then that urge is complete, because it's a natural expression of the ethereal and aesthetic quality of the emotional and mental relationship which began long before the physical.

    To me that seems wholly natural.

    To my mind constricting and constraining natural feelings into a moralistic box based on theological theory is more unnatural.

    I wish this bladdy God would have a word with some of the religious about some of their ideas, if they could hear what he/she had to say they'd probably keep hearing

    'D'oh! I didn't mean it like that! No you've misconstrued that whole idea....D'oh!

    And doing much forehead slapping!!!!
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    or even man/woman and plant, is perfectly natural!
    You mean vegetable. OMG you're talking about vegetables!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    or even man/woman and plant, is perfectly natural!
    You mean vegetable. OMG you're talking about vegetables!!!
    Not marrows or squashes

    That's just way too kinky!
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  28. #27  
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    P.s I love my plants

    I play them classical music and talk to them frequently

    I pre-warn them and apologise if i need to prune or trim their leaves and i ask permission first if i pick their flowers.

    And they quiver when i sing to them
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  29. #28  
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    I do love some trees. As future lumber, for carpentry. Maybe my grandchild's furniture. I take care of some trees, prune them, imagine how the grain within is structured, dream of boards pricelessly sawed with real sympathy for the way of that wood so that their polished faces ripple with hypnotizing depth. I pat the growing trunk and say, "good tree."

    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    Yet real love embraces all the dimensions of a being, therefore the physical is just another facet and expression to explore.
    Yes, I'm wanting immortality for these trees beyond my short stay. For the tree's glory. So it is love.

    How about the comic collector, or the guy doing motorcycle maintenance with loving care?
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  30. #29 Re: Love 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    No. I said that the 'euphoria' is the driving force here.
    In spousal murders though, love is the cause since in most cases, it involves adultary.
    Cosmo we want referenced studies for this notion of yours - put up or shut up, as it were.

    I say this because most organisations involved in spousal abuse/murder cases are quite clear as to the root causes - they're mostly committed by men, and they're mostly committed out of frustrated possessiveness - the men in question cannot bear that their spouses have minds of their own and would like to make their own choices.

    What you say is not just unsupported by the evidence, but a perversion of the idea of love - you're not using the same definition we are. Worse, you're confusing your moral stances with empirical science.
    Wel, I THINK.
    So I evaluate reality with my own observations rather than looking to the experts. Otherwise, I would accept the BBT that I consider to be fictional and any other science that I may disagree with.

    I define love as Nature teaches it to me with, of course, the human modified versions.

    Since I consider Nature to be our Greatest Teacher, that is where I look for answers.

    Cosmo
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  31. #30 Re: Love 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Since I consider Nature to be our Greatest Teacher, that is where I look for answers.
    Then you should be posting your ideas in philosophy. You're developing an ethical code based on biological phenomenon (which I do think is an interesting idea, don't get me wrong) - but ethical codes and biology are not the same thing. You shouldn't, as you have in this and other threads, try to substitute one for the other.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  32. #31 Re: Love 
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    2. Are you saying that love is the source of sex crimes and sexual perversion?
    No. I said that the 'euphoria' is the driving force here.
    No, that's not what you said. This is what you said.

    Love is the 'euphoria' that the males get from these encounters. (emphasis mine- paralith)
    If love is euphoria then euphoria is love and you are blaming love for sexual crimes. Get your story straight.

    In spousal murders though, love is the cause since in most cases, it involves adultary.
    Is that love, or is that jealousy? As a mentally stable person, do you kill the people you truly love? Is the adulterer experiencing love or lust and a lack of love for their partner?


    No. But in those cases, it does not involve love but the euphoria that motivates the perpretators.
    Here we go again. Is love euphoria, as you yourself said? Does love cause euphoria? Is the euphoria actually a separate thing from love if this type of euphoria is only ever experienced when love is also experienced? Or are you talking about simple sexual lust? As sunshine warrior said, you really need to clarify your terms because you appear to be switching up your definitions as suits your fancy.

    I do not personally hate. I understand that this driving force is the most powerful in nature, so I can excuse those people, except the criminals involved.
    Ha. While I understand that what you yourself do or do not hate should not be an issue in a scientifically objective discussion, I can't help but point out that thinking of certain sexual orientations as perversions is certainly evidence of a very healthy dislike, if not all out hate. Neither of which have a place in your idea of a perfect world, so I find you to be rather hypocritical.

    The males 'biological' urge is done with a female even though the intent is not necessarily for reproduction.
    You're assuming that there is no biological reason why a person would be sexually attracted to a member of their own gender, which is an incorrect assumption to make. Also, you're now talking about biological "urges" - are you still talking about love? Are you now talking about lust? Or are you talking about the desire to have children?

    BUT, the religious crazies outlaw GODs Natural way (prostitution) that only contributes to these perversions that they preach against.
    ... god's natural way is prostitution? What?

    I have come to understand an excuse for lesbianism.
    It could be a way for healing the after effects of a viagra connection that was time extended that the female had an injured vagina?
    So this practice than is done to heal? Ha ha.
    This is assuming lesbians do not stimulate each other's vaginas during sex, and this is yet another incorrect assumption to make.

    So, IMO, that is the natural way and socially acceptible.
    ...
    No, all kidding aside, I believe in Nature as my GOD. So I can only recommend the natural way and these religious crazies have outlawed it.
    I repeat shanks' admonition of naturalistic fallacy. What is natural is by no means necessarily morally right. Cosmo, it's natural for a male to desire to kill an unfamiliar female's infant, so that he can both remove a future competitor for his own offspring, and mate with that female much sooner than he could have if she was still in lactational amenorrhea. Should we allow step fathers to kill their stepchildren because it is only natural?
    Due to the drawn out lengthy post, I will answer beifly with generalized answers.

    Your questions are ludicrous since you would know how I would answer them.
    Sexual crimes are motivated by the feelings of this biological urge.
    They are illegal because they are UNnatural and that includes rape

    I reduced love to the basic motivation of what it is.
    However, we love children with a 'hug' and protective treatment.

    However, how do you define pedophilia? This is loving children. But here, the meaning of love is illlegal and distorted.

    So love can have extended definitions.

    Nuff said

    Cosmo
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  33. #32 Re: Love 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Your questions are ludicrous since you would know how I would answer them.
    Sorry Cosmo, my telepathy hasn't been working lately.

    If multiple people ask you multiple times to clarify what you're saying, I think it's far more likely that you're having difficulty communicating your ideas, and not that the rest of us ought to understand every single thing you say and must be thick for not being able to do so.

    Sexual crimes are motivated by the feelings of this biological urge.
    They are illegal because they are UNnatural and that includes rape
    BIOLOGICAL URGE TO DO WHAT? To love? To mate? To have children? To feel euphoric? Call my questions ludicrous all you want, but I'm not going to stop asking them until you actually answer them.

    I reduced love to the basic motivation of what it is.
    However, we love children with a 'hug' and protective treatment.
    You said love is a good feeling. So we hug and protect children because it makes us feel good?

    However, how do you define pedophilia? This is loving children. But here, the meaning of love is illlegal and distorted.
    I define pedophilia as the desire to have sexual intercourse with a child. I call it a largely physical desire that pedophiles attempt to justify by calling it "love." But I do not consider lust and love to be the same thing. Do you?

    So love can have extended definitions.

    Nuff said
    Not nearly enough. Of course it can have different definitions according to different people. But I want to know what definition YOU are using.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    P.s I love my plants

    I play them classical music and talk to them frequently

    I pre-warn them and apologise if i need to prune or trim their leaves and i ask permission first if i pick their flowers.

    And they quiver when i sing to them
    For your information, there was a scientific study about plant reactions to music.
    The plants reacted favourably to the classical music and unfavourably to rock and roll.

    I also read that when a plant is attacked by an insect, it sends out a signal to the other plants.
    I do not recall how that was done.

    So from these two news sources, I believe that plants DO have feelings .

    FYI, I had an organic vegetable garden in my former location for more than 20 years.

    Cosmo
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    I would suspect that the reason that plants respond to music is due to air vibrations, which would affect photosynthesis. It has nothing to do with plants having feelings.
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    I've been hearing about that experiment for decades. I've always assumed it was flawed... let's try a similar one, on salad:

    Take twenty restaurant kitchens. Mount speakers. Now, some kitchens get Mozart, some get Slayer. Which kitchens will produce the better salad? Did the music affect the vegetables?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong

    How about the comic collector, or the guy doing motorcycle maintenance with loving care?
    You've hit on a very important point there Pong concerning love.

    Humans have a tendency to discriminate love and believe that love can only be given or received from living beings such as other humans, animals and sometimes plants even.

    Yet love can be given and received from everything we ever have contact with including material objects, as well as in everything we do.

    When i cook, one of the most important ingredients i add is love.

    When i am painting a picture i become devoted to it and it inspires love inside me.

    When i am painting a wall in my house every stroke of the brush is an act of love.

    I am sure this is the same for the mechanic fixing his beloved motorbike, or the gardener tending her beloved garden. Or the builder building his beloved wall or the child playing with his beloved toys.

    Even observing the natural world around us inspires love. The sunrise or sunset. The rainbow. The mountain. The sea and even the thunderstorm.

    I believe this is the art and route to understanding and truly knowing real love.

    Every act should be an act of love.

    Love has an uncanny ability to be a two way thing. Once the flow of love is instigated it flows backwards and forwards like a circle or loop between the person loving and the thing loved. And i believe this is a reflective process that is actually an illusion, because love is an emotion and an inert object can't actually love you back of course, but interacting with a thing can inspire love within you for it and give you the sense of being in love.

    For example in order to feel love for a particular person or thing i first need to be able to feel love inside or fill myself up with love to be able to give it in the first place.
    Therefore i become love and loved.

    I believe this love is encouraged by taking a healthy pride in what we are doing and being. I say healthy because too much pride can also be negative.

    For example when i cook, i want to cook a really good nourishing meal which is delicious and tasty and attractive to look at. My motivation is to nourish my family as well as give them an enjoyable meal. So i take pride in what i am doing. It becomes important to me during the duration and i treat everything with love and care and take time and effort to make sure it does taste good.

    The same with the builder with his wall. He could very easily be slap dash and not give a hoot and it could look terrible and fall down within a year.
    But instead if he takes pride and loves his work. He will take the time and effort to make sure it is sturdy and looks good.

    This type of effort in everything you do fills you up with a great sense of satisfaction and achievement and fills you up with love.

    Next time you do something you enjoy or are really getting into, whether it's fixing your bike or mowing the lawn or building a shed or making a cake.
    Observe how it makes you feel.

    I think you will be very surprised to notice how not only does it give you a tremendous buzz from the satisfaction and pride in what you're achieving but it also exactly the same positive feeling you get when you fall in love.

    Compare that to the times when you are doing something you don't really want to do or enjoy and you're not getting into it at all. The sense of irritation annoyance anger and negativity and leaves you feeling down.

    Wouldn't it be good if we could if we could inspire this love inside for everything we do and towards everything we interact with. Things as well as people.

    We'd be fit to bursting with love and there'd be plenty to share!

    I think this is the nature of true love and is the same kinf of love that spiritual disciplines such as Buddhism teaches.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    P.s I love my plants

    I play them classical music and talk to them frequently

    I pre-warn them and apologise if i need to prune or trim their leaves and i ask permission first if i pick their flowers.

    And they quiver when i sing to them
    For your information, there was a scientific study about plant reactions to music.
    The plants reacted favorably to the classical music and unfavorably to rock and roll.

    I also read that when a plant is attacked by an insect, it sends out a signal to the other plants.
    I do not recall how that was done.

    So from these two news sources, I believe that plants DO have feelings .

    FYI, I had an organic vegetable garden in my former location for more than 20 years.

    Cosmo
    Does FYI mean For Your Information?

    Ok FYI there have been solid scientific experiments in the study of plants reacting to stimuli such as music and physical threats.

    The first and most famous person to begin successful research in this area was Jagdish Chandra Bose who began in 1900 and discovered that every plant and every part of a plant appeared to have a sensitive nervous system and responded to shock by a spasm.

    He also discovered that plants grew more quickly amidst pleasant music and more slowly amidst loud noise or harsh sounds.

    Cleve Backster
    , an American, also began experiments in 1966 which led him to believe that plants can communicate with other life forms. He used a polygraph attached to the leaves of the plants to measure the electrical resistance and fluctuations.

    All the evidence so far points to the high probability that plants have feelings and respond accordingly to stimuli and there is much evidence that they can pick up thoughts and intentions.

    Whilst one of the plants was attached to the polygraph Backster decided in his mind to burn the leaf of the plant to see what response he would get. To his surprise there was a sudden upward sweep in the tracing pattern of the polygraph even before he had even moved a muscle to carry out his intentions!

    http://www.vigyanprasar.gov.in/scientists/JCBOSE.htm

    http://www.psychobotany.com/people/Cleve%20Backster.htm
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  39. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeptuneCircle
    I would suspect that the reason that plants respond to music is due to air vibrations, which would affect photosynthesis. It has nothing to do with plants having feelings.
    How do you explain the different reactions to classical and rock?

    Cosmo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I've been hearing about that experiment for decades. I've always assumed it was flawed... let's try a similar one, on salad:

    Take twenty restaurant kitchens. Mount speakers. Now, some kitchens get Mozart, some get Slayer. Which kitchens will produce the better salad? Did the music affect the vegetables?
    This is a silly question.

    The one with the salad dressing on it will be the better salad.

    Coismo
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  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    P.s I love my plants

    I play them classical music and talk to them frequently

    I pre-warn them and apologise if i need to prune or trim their leaves and i ask permission first if i pick their flowers.

    And they quiver when i sing to them
    For your information, there was a scientific study about plant reactions to music.
    The plants reacted favorably to the classical music and unfavorably to rock and roll.

    I also read that when a plant is attacked by an insect, it sends out a signal to the other plants.
    I do not recall how that was done.

    So from these two news sources, I believe that plants DO have feelings .

    FYI, I had an organic vegetable garden in my former location for more than 20 years.

    Cosmo
    Does FYI mean For Your Information?

    Ok FYI there have been solid scientific experiments in the study of plants reacting to stimuli such as music and physical threats.

    The first and most famous person to begin successful research in this area was Jagdish Chandra Bose who began in 1900 and discovered that every plant and every part of a plant appeared to have a sensitive nervous system and responded to shock by a spasm.

    He also discovered that plants grew more quickly amidst pleasant music and more slowly amidst loud noise or harsh sounds.

    Cleve Backster
    , an American, also began experiments in 1966 which led him to believe that plants can communicate with other life forms. He used a polygraph attached to the leaves of the plants to measure the electrical resistance and fluctuations.

    All the evidence so far points to the high probability that plants have feelings and respond accordingly to stimuli and there is much evidence that they can pick up thoughts and intentions.

    Whilst one of the plants was attached to the polygraph Backster decided in his mind to burn the leaf of the plant to see what response he would get. To his surprise there was a sudden upward sweep in the tracing pattern of the polygraph even before he had even moved a muscle to carry out his intentions!

    http://www.vigyanprasar.gov.in/scientists/JCBOSE.htm

    http://www.psychobotany.com/people/Cleve%20Backster.htm
    Thanks for the added info. It just prooves that plants are sensitive to their surroundings.

    As a Vegan, I love salads. They not only provide us with food, but they also refesh the air with oxygen and cool the planet with all the energy that they convert into growth.

    Cosmo
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    I love salads. They not only provide us with food, but they also refesh the air with oxygen...
    Salads sate your hunger - you derive physical pleasure from them. Additionally, you believe plants crucial to survival - you value their utility. What kinds of love are these? Consider:

    I Love Noodles - Youtube Is taking pleasure from a thing, love?

    And also consider the burning house, occupants crawling beneath the smoke because, they love fresh air. Love?

    I believe the love Selene points to is not consumption of a thing. Rather, it's the being consumed by a thing. Now let me tell you how much I love noodles: I make them. From scratch. With carefully selected flour, alkaline water from China, a lot of elbow grease and keen attention to production and cooking few eaters will appreciate. My love is irrational and excessive effort, a sort of hobby. I put my soul into noodles. I am getting into the essence of them. Whether or not the noodles are finally consumed - for pleasure, utility - is immaterial.

    Most parents have a similar love for their children. And I think we've all felt this kind of love. One might love science, for its own sake. I would like to call it "consuming love" but the term's been pimped. It has something to do with essences, doesn't it? Perhaps it is where empathy becomes sympathy... where we lose parts of ourselves?

    Can a mechanic truly sympathize with the engine of a motorbike?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong



    Can a mechanic truly sympathize with the engine of a motorbike?
    Yes of course or he wouldn't be a mechanic and he wouldn't be able to fix it properly!

    But a mechanic that fixes the bike he rides, is probably deeply in love!

    Perhaps we should call this consuming love that you say has essence, and i would agree - Essential love.

    Because life is just not the same without it!

    Actually it's pretty crap without it
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  44. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Salads sate your hunger - you derive physical pleasure from them. Additionally, you believe plants crucial to survival - you value their utility. What kinds of love are these? Consider:
    I am also a nutritional expert. And I have determined that 'green leafy vegatables' are the supreme foods for our nourishment.
    For the Vegan, however, greens that contain oxylic acid are to be avoided for their calcium. Only the greens without/low this acid is suitable for calcium absorbtion.

    Noodles are deficient in the important nutrients like calcium, vitamin A and vitamin C unless they have been enriched.

    Cosmo
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  45. #44  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    I am also a nutritional expert. And I have determined that 'green leafy vegatables' are the supreme foods for our nourishment.

    ...Noodles are deficient...
    Say what you will, I'll still place noodles on a higher pedestal! :-D




    I do believe you love salads, in a confused way. You think this love has a rational core? Why do you seek formalize it?
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  46. #45  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Salads sate your hunger - you derive physical pleasure from them. Additionally, you believe plants crucial to survival - you value their utility. What kinds of love are these? Consider:
    I am also a nutritional expert. And I have determined that 'green leafy vegatables' are the supreme foods for our nourishment.
    For the Vegan, however, greens that contain oxylic acid are to be avoided for their calcium. Only the greens without/low this acid is suitable for calcium absorbtion.

    Noodles are deficient in the important nutrients like calcium, vitamin A and vitamin C unless they have been enriched.

    Cosmo
    Try sprouts

    Not the brussel type.

    Sprouts from seeds and pulses, mung beans, adzuki, mustard, yum yum

    They are super foods, super high in nutrition.

    P.s don't forget to sing to them, talk to them and love them whilst they're growing.
    They'll taste so much better!

    Oh and p.p.s... Sprouts and noodles stir fry with loads of garlic, OMG that is heaven!
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  47. #46  
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    Selene and Pong

    I use sprouts in my recipe for Mushroom Chop Suey.
    I belonged to a Mushroom Hunters Club.

    Pong
    Noodles can be eaten in large volumes. My Mother made 'spaghetti' and I indulged.

    But, like the government says, do eat your fruits and veggies too.

    Cosmo
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  48. #47  
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    Jeez. I'm talkin' about love, not food!
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  49. #48  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Jeez. I'm talkin' about love, not food!
    Love has only a specific meaning when used in 'context'.

    The word alone has several meanings.

    Cosmo
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    I have only read half the thread - sorry if I repost someones toughts.

    Well first of, if you´re purely scientific as I am, non believer in any higher "things". Love is just a word.
    It must have evolved to where it is today. Before there were novells, Hollywood "loveflicks" and TV-series there must have been this "thing" we nowadays call love.

    So question is, why? Ok. It has been proven in other studies totally unrelated to this (on group psychology/grp evolution) that when people feel strong bonds between them they are more willing to sacrifice themself for the greater good of the tribe for example.
    Such groups were actually more successfull in many situations then those who did not sacrifice themself.
    So strong bonding (strong emotions for someone) can help in that way.

    Now, let me just say a few things on my own from my own toughts.
    Let´s go back in time to the cavemen and stuff.
    First, you need to find an appropriate mate. One that isnt taken and seems to have the right atributes (attraction). And overcome whatever customs in the tribe etc. Attraction make sure you´re proper motivated.
    Then once you´ve hooked up, in order to increase chances of babies there´s the bonding (love). And once you have babies, in order to protect your family no matter what you need strong bonds (love).
    Happens to be that humans have some of the most helpless offspring of nearly all mamals. Need ALOT (relative) of time in order to become self-sufficient. So babies NEED as much protection as possible for as long as possible. Having two parents increase protection and chance of survival.
    Strong bonds (love) increase chances of parents sticking together. Voila. Stronger love = higher probability to pass on genes and so on and so forth...


    Phuw so long post, sorry
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