Notices
Results 1 to 38 of 38

Thread: Why greed?

  1. #1 Why greed? 
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    161
    a few days ago someone posted the topic on why guilt?

    and it got into the subject, of whats best for the individual and whats best for the group, that a person feels guilt because although it may have been good for the individual it damages the group.

    So i was wondering why greed exists. it is bad for the group obviously, some people will have less etc. but the individual doesn't need the excess, so why are people greedy and take as much as they can?


    Liberty is the souls right to breathe
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    People tend to be greedy when it comes to material things because during our evolution, resources were rarely in abundance. Having a strong drive to accumulate food and tools etc when they were available helped us better prepare ourselves for times of need, which are very common in the wild.


    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    England
    Posts
    60
    it all comes down to evelution.

    some survival mechanisms are based on furthuring the existance of the species as a whole (guilt, sharing ect)

    some are for the survival of an individual (greed, stealing ect)

    basicaly greed is built in so that you (more importantly your genes) survive, rather than a competitor (and his/her genes) its just that this instict is stronger in some people than others.
    'if one man beleaves in fairies its called madness
    if one million men beleave in faries its called religion'- Richard Dawkings
    (but i think he was quoting someone when he said it...but who cares)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    I was about to say what paralith said, but she beat me to it .
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5 Re: Why greed? 
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,114
    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    a few days ago someone posted the topic on why guilt?

    and it got into the subject, of whats best for the individual and whats best for the group, that a person feels guilt because although it may have been good for the individual it damages the group.

    So i was wondering why greed exists. it is bad for the group obviously, some people will have less etc. but the individual doesn't need the excess, so why are people greedy and take as much as they can?
    Greed exista for the same reason chauvinsm exists. The OT has portrayed chauvinism as practiced by the lion that separates itself from the female with its 'hair armour(?) or crown(?).

    The 1st 3 commandments are an example of this self serving greed.

    Cosmo
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6 Re: Why greed? 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Greed exista for the same reason chauvinsm exists. The OT has portrayed chauvinism as practiced by the lion that separates itself from the female with its 'hair armour(?) or crown(?).
    Uh, what? A lion's mane is an honest signal of his physical condition. Female prefer males with longer and darker manes, and males with shorter and lighter manes avoid said males. This is because males with such manes have higher testosterone levels and are better fed and thus in better body condition. These males, should they get into a fight, are much more likely to win than a male with lower testosterone and body condition. However, both potential combatants can avoid combat entirely (saving both of them valuable energy and preventing possible injury), if the superior male is clearly marked by the condition of his mane, allowing the inferior male to know he has no hope of winning.

    Since females do not compete with each other in this fashion, growing a mane at all is simply a waste of resources that would be better conserved for the production of offspring.

    That's why there is a difference between male and female lions in respect to mane. It has nothing to do with greed. Except, maybe, that a lion can achieve higher body condition (and thus a darker longer mane) by greedily chowing down on as much meat as he can get. But a female will do that too, because a high body condition for her is important for successful pregnancies and periods of lactation for her young.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7 Re: Why greed? 
    Forum Professor Pendragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Nederland
    Posts
    1,085
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Since females do not compete with each other in this fashion, growing a mane at all is simply a waste of resources that would be better conserved for the production of offspring.

    That's why there is a difference between male and female lions in respect to mane. It has nothing to do with greed
    But collecting material possessions can be a very effective way of communicating physical abilities and social status.

    I've read about isolated agricultural societies in Papua-New Guinea who link greed and status in a very direct way (it's not an online source so I can't paste a link; I could search for something comparable though). I think yams are the main food stuff in that region, and people can easily produce more of it than they need to stay alive. So at harvest time people work hard to harvest as much as they can, even if it's much more then they could possibly eat or sell to others. The surplus is displayed in special storage houses, placed right in front of the house (visable to all). The objective is not to store the food but simply to display it: by burying the food in dry places it wouldn't rot as fast as in the open air, but then nobody could see how much you own.
    Having the biggest storage house with the best yams in it gives you a high status in the community. Someone who wouldn't spend his time amassing surplus yams that he doesnt need wouldn't be able to become village leader, you need to be able to show a big storage house to get such status.
    Getting a wife also requires having lots of surplus yams because you have to be able to give big yearly gifts to the woman's parents. It's just moving yams from one storage house to another (so they rot there instead of in your storage house) and you get the same amount of yams back from them, so there's no net loss or gain. But if you don't have those yams in the first place then you can't play along.

    The effect is the same as a lion who grows big manes: people waste time and energy to create something that has no direct function other than attracting a mate and getting social status. But in evolutionary terms it means you have to be physically healthy and skilled in order to play along, if you're cripple you can't harvest yams let alone harvesting a surplus that you don't need.

    Another link between greed and evolutionary selection occurs in societies where theft and raiding aren't supressed by law enforcement. If you're able to steal lots of goods then either you're physically strong, or you have such a high social status that people wont stop you from taking their property. Often stealing food is a lot more work than just growing it yourself, and people often don't even steal food but symbolic goods (flags, treasures, ritual items). This greed can't be explained as getting what you need at minimal costs, but is rather a way to communicate to other people that you're physically strong and or have a high social standing.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    As you'll see by my first post in this thread, I am by no means of the opinion that greed is not related to selection. You do not to do any convincing on that point with me.

    My point is that greed is not the source of the sexual dimorphism between male and female lions. Both males and females are resource greedy, like any other animal, indeed any other organism on this planet. The fact that males display their resource state (as many male animals do, of course including humans) and that females do not is not rooted in males being any greedier than females.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,114
    Paralith

    The lion is the only animal I know of that displays this chauvinism.

    Just about all other cats and animals do not separate themselves from the females by their clothing(?). I use that word because of no other easy description.

    Cosmo
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Paralith

    The lion is the only animal I know of that displays this chauvinism.

    Just about all other cats and animals do not separate themselves from the females by their clothing(?). I use that word because of no other easy description.

    Cosmo
    This is just untrue, traits like this are quite common, the antlers of many antilope and deer species are usually quite different in the males, especially in North American Caribou where the female has completely different antlers. Also, peacocks and many other birds will have modified feathers, morphological differences between the sexes are one of the most common things observed in nature.

    Male tiger moths have to spray the female with paralytic pheramones to mate with her. How bout that for a display of chauvanism in nature .

    An image of a male (colourful and large) and female (small and plain) pheasants to display how this is common.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Paralith

    The lion is the only animal I know of that displays this chauvinism.

    Just about all other cats and animals do not separate themselves from the females by their clothing(?). I use that word because of no other easy description.

    Cosmo
    As tiredsleepy already said, a great deal of animals display distinct and sometimes remarkable sexual dimorphism (to the point that each gender was initially identified as separate species). Humans too are sexually dimorphic, with males being on average larger than females.

    However, this is somewhat besides the point. Chauvinism, which I'm assuming you're using with the definition of males perceiving themselves to be superior to females, is NOT, can I say it again, NOT the cause of sexual dimorphism. If anything, it's individual males trying to show that they are superior to all the other males in order to impress the females. Females of many species are also "duller" because they need to camouflage themselves while they are birthing their offspring, to prevent either from being seen by predators in their vulnerable condition.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12 why greed? 
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    41
    why greed?...why do you think...its an in built feeling for survival of the fittest...obivously....

    did u think Hitler wasnt greedy??...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13 Re: why greed? 
    Forum Professor Pendragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Nederland
    Posts
    1,085
    Quote Originally Posted by geniusjames
    why greed?...why do you think...its an in built feeling for survival of the fittest...obivously....

    did u think Hitler wasnt greedy??...
    Your post adds nothing to the discussion. And I don't see why you need to drag Hitler into it (you give no reason or explanation). Please read the other posts and respond to them.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,114
    Sleepy and Paralith

    I knew there are such differences but the example above of the pheasants is not because of chauvinism but because of survival.

    The hen has 'camoflouge' clothing for protection while the male has more visible dress to expose himself to the predators to draw them away from the female that would be 'egg' sitting.

    My post is for why we have such greed in our human sector.
    The behavior of our religious factions are derived from the bible predominantly.

    Cosmo
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Sleepy and Paralith

    I knew there are such differences but the example above of the pheasants is not because of chauvinism but because of survival.
    Survival, and reproductive success, yes. The same goes for the lions.

    The hen has 'camoflouge' clothing for protection while the male has more visible dress to expose himself to the predators to draw them away from the female that would be 'egg' sitting.
    Also yes. I'd like to add that in most cases, rich colorful plumage is largely in order to impress a female, especially since only very healthy males (ones that can make a good genetic contribution to the offspring) are usually capable of producing such rich, vibrant pigments. In biparental birds, males will often take an active role in chasing away and even attacking predators, and in some cases they may flash their brightly patterned tail or wing feathers at the predator as part of their attack.

    My post is for why we have such greed in our human sector.
    Uh huh. Then why, may I ask, did you talk about lions?

    The behavior of our religious factions are derived from the bible predominantly.
    Yes, I'd imagine so. What does this have to do with greed?
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    79
    People are greedy because they are egotistical and want what they don't have, or want what others have, believing that they should have it too. We are very good at creating illusions as to what we 'need', when in reality we don't actually need these things at all - not where survival is concerned anyway.

    Whether the ego is a product of evolution and tool of natural selection or is rather a product of our acute mental awareness, is another question entirely.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    I live in Bertrand Russells teapot!
    Posts
    902
    Greed

    Yet another destructive aspect which springs from fear.

    It's a primitive survival impulse.

    It's also a necessary ingredient for power.
    If i have more that you then i am more powerful. If i can get hold of what you need to survive and own it, especially water and food, then i have got you by the balls and you must then prostrate yourself and call me your leader.

    Mmm....greed is a wretched disease.

    Many spiritual practices, especially in Buddhism and Hinduism attempt to eliminate this nasty aspect by annihilating the ego and it's grasping nature.

    It not only makes others suffer but ultimately the self too.

    Trying to make the greedy give up this grasping ego is like trying to make a heroin addict or smoker give up their drug. They are under the illusion or delusion that they need it in order to survive. When ironically the very opposite is true.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,114
    Quote Originally Posted by Paralith
    Then why, may I ask, did you talk about lions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    :
    The behavior of our religious factions are derived from the bible predominantly.
    Yes, I'd imagine so. What does this have to do with greed?
    The main religions in the western hemisphere are derived from the bible and that includes communism.
    Islam is a copy of Judaism.

    The Roman church is the exception.

    The only 'self serving' animal that exhibits this nature is the lion that complies with the 1st 3 commandments that promote greed.


    The OT teaches chauvinism. I studied the OT and determined just that.
    These religions are centered around the Mideast and Africa.

    The NT teaches opposition to the OT elite jews.as John the Baptist and Christ taught it.
    Our US Constitution is an endorsement of the Christian Gospel because it outlaws the popes version of christianity as well as chauvinism as practiced by kings, emporers and dictators that are all 'self serving'.

    Cosmo
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    The main religions in the western hemisphere are derived from the bible and that includes communism.
    Islam is a copy of Judaism.

    The Roman church is the exception.

    The OT teaches chauvinism. I studied the OT and determined just that.
    These religions are centered around the Mideast and Africa.

    The NT teaches opposition to the OT elite jews.as John the Baptist and Christ taught it.
    Our US Constitution is an endorsement of the Christian Gospel because it outlaws the popes version of christianity as well as chauvinism as practiced by kings, emporers and dictators that are all 'self serving'.
    So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying people are greedy because their religious texts tell them to be greedy?

    The only 'self serving' animal that exhibits this nature is the lion that complies with the 1st 3 commandments that promote greed.
    Ok, I don't know what the 1st 3 commandments that promote greed are, but you are continually displaying a pathetic understanding of biology. All animals are self serving. Or rather, they serve their genes, but the concept is the same. The lion is NOT the only animal species where the male is larger and showier than the female, it is NOT the only species that is greedy - be it for resources, mates, what have you. Whatever is required for reproductive success, animals will seek to attain.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    The main religions in the western hemisphere are derived from the bible and that includes communism.
    Communism isn't a religion o.O, it's a form of government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Islam is a copy of Judaism.

    The Roman church is the exception.
    Islam is heavily influenced by both Christianity and Judaism, and recognizes the new testament as a divinely inspired text, and that Jesus is a prophet of Allah. It is definitely not a copy of Judaism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    The only 'self serving' animal that exhibits this nature is the lion that complies with the 1st 3 commandments that promote greed.
    I don't know how you can't grasp that a lion is not chauvinistic, the mane serves a purpose in sexual selection. Cats do not have the ability to perceive of themselves as superior, despite the overwhelming amount of human characteristics people love to heap on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    The OT teaches chauvinism. I studied the OT and determined just that.
    These religions are centered around the Mideast and Africa.

    The NT teaches opposition to the OT elite jews.as John the Baptist and Christ taught it.
    Paul's letter to the Corinthians in which he tells women to cover their hair during worship isn't chauvinistic at all . Moreover, I don't think the location of the worshippers of Islam really matters. Jews are quite dispersed around the western world as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Our US Constitution is an endorsement of the Christian Gospel because it outlaws the popes version of christianity as well as chauvinism as practiced by kings, emporers and dictators that are all 'self serving'.

    Cosmo
    Ya w/e

    All of this has absolutely nothing to do with why humans are greedy...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    I live in Bertrand Russells teapot!
    Posts
    902
    Humans have the biological capability and capacity to go beyond basic animal impulses such as greed.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    Humans have the biological capability and capacity to go beyond basic animal impulses such as greed.
    Of course they do. Unfortunately, a lot of people would rather, and do, just give into it.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Also like they do with pride, envy lust etc etc. All damaging traits.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24 Re: Why greed? 
    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    969
    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    So i was wondering why greed exists. it is bad for the group obviously, some people will have less etc. but the individual doesn't need the excess, so why are people greedy and take as much as they can?
    I think it has mostly to do with the idea of "over self indulgence," and also the frequent times when those who are behaving greedily adversely effect the community.

    It's that self-control thing that is a part of living in society. If you eat all the potatoes, everyone starves (and they'll probably eat you :P ). If you exercise some control, and everyone else does, then the potatoes go 'round.

    Not sure if that addressed your question or not...
    Wolf
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    "Be fair with others, but then keep after them until they're fair with you." Alan Alda
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,114
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying people are greedy because their religious texts tell them to be greedy?
    The current US religions are promoting the Christian Gospel of Christ as an 'all' loving God. This opposes greed.
    He refuted the chauvinism of the OT jews.
    He said that those that do not dispose themselves of their wealth will not go to heaven. This is opposite to greed.
    The people are followers and just work to survive.

    If you read the bible, the 1st 3 commandments demand absolute obedience. Read it. Sorry, I cannot quote the exact location.

    Ok, I don't know what the 1st 3 commandments that promote greed are, but you are continually displaying a pathetic understanding of biology. All animals are self serving. Or rather, they serve their genes, but the concept is the same. The lion is NOT the only animal species where the male is larger and showier than the female, it is NOT the only species that is greedy - be it for resources, mates, what have you. Whatever is required for reproductive success, animals will seek to attain.
    The lion, of course, is only a symbol of greed.

    But J. Stalin. who is a spiritual disciple of the OT bible and Marx's communism, are examples of the ultimate greed where JS established himself as a god with his pictures throughout Russia and statues while also killing tens of millions of Russian peasants and opponants.

    Islam is a copy of the OT with Mohammad as receptive to that inner voice as Moses was.and actually puts into actual practice that portrays women as sinners with those outlandish garments and denied any education by reducing them to just 'farm' animals used for breeding purposes.

    Cosmo
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,114
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Communism isn't a religion o.O, it's a form of government.
    Governments do not commit genocides. Only religions do. Marx refuted religion as a drug but JS was expelled from a seminary because of lack of discipline.

    Islam is heavily influenced by both Christianity and Judaism, and recognizes the new testament as a divinely inspired text, and that Jesus is a prophet of Allah. It is definitely not a copy of Judaism.
    Mohammad is a copy of Moses but turned out to be a 'war lord' in spite of the Koran.
    There are two versions of Christianity. The popes version of Christ as a sacrifice and the US Constitutional version of Christianity even though it does not officially endorse any religion because of promoting 'freedom'.
    The majority seen to endorse the papal version.

    All of this has absolutely nothing to do with why humans are greedy...
    Well, the superiority of weapons as shown by the lion and the Sphinx as a replacement of the lion, sends the message that weapons rule.
    The Romans, of course were aware of that. So when they invented the gun and the cannon, Roman Christianity was spread throughout the world that resulted in plundering the resources of the victim countries.
    This was rampaging greed.

    Cosmo
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying people are greedy because their religious texts tell them to be greedy?
    The people are followers and just work to survive.
    You still haven't directly answered my question. If Christians were not told that they won't go to heaven unless they dispose of their wealth, then they would be greedy? Are you saying the only reason they're not greedy is because an authority figure is telling them not to be?

    The lion, of course, is only a symbol of greed.
    Well for pete's sake, we're having this argument over an effing symbol? Then why on earth did you try to say that the male lion has a mane because of chauvinism? If all you're talking about is symbols used by various governments and/or religions, then that has no bearing on the actual biology of the animal.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Governments do not commit genocides. Only religions do. Marx refuted religion as a drug but JS was expelled from a seminary because of lack of discipline.
    That doesn't make any sense, Nazi's commited genocide and they were not a religion, the Hutu commited genocide against the Tutsi's in Rwanda and they were both Catholic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Mohammad is a copy of Moses but turned out to be a 'war lord' in spite of the Koran.
    There are two versions of Christianity. The popes version of Christ as a sacrifice and the US Constitutional version of Christianity even though it does not officially endorse any religion because of promoting 'freedom'.
    The majority seen to endorse the papal version.
    Mohammad is not a copy of Moses, why don't you actually go read about him before you start spouting nonsense. Islam is closer to Christianity in more aspects than it is to Judaism.

    The US constitution never invented a form of Christianity, last I checked Protestant faiths came out of central Europe for the most part o.O.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Well, the superiority of weapons as shown by the lion and the Sphinx as a replacement of the lion, sends the message that weapons rule.
    The Romans, of course were aware of that. So when they invented the gun and the cannon, Roman Christianity was spread throughout the world that resulted in plundering the resources of the victim countries.
    This was rampaging greed.

    Cosmo
    It is stated in Christian theology that the faith should be spread, how many prostestant missionaries are there right now in all sorts of countries? I can't believe you would blame the greed of European colonialism on Catholocism. The Dutch were Lutherans and Calvanist for the most part and had no problem spreading their world power, and the puritans didn't balk at taking native land in the USA.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,114
    To All

    Reducing this argument to details, does not provide soluions to the problems.

    What is your answer to this question?
    Was it the religion that spread Christianity or 'guns and cannon'?

    The vast majority of people are just 'followers'. The leadership are primarily chauvinists motivated by greed, as a rule.

    Cosmo
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    Cats do not have the ability to perceive of themselves as superior, despite the overwhelming amount of human characteristics people love to heap on them.
    I would have thought that you'd disagree with this, paralith? :? People in general might heap human characteristics onto animals, when in reality those attributes are pretty common among mammals and only differ in complexity.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    969
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying people are greedy because their religious texts tell them to be greedy?
    He said that those that do not dispose themselves of their wealth will not go to heaven. This is opposite to greed.
    That's up to interpretation based on the religious sect you follow. The intention is not to mean that if you are wealthy you won't go to Heaven. Rather the intent is that if you center yourself around the material world (more accurately, if you ignore the eternal world [Heaven, God] and instead embrace the material world), and you do not give, then you are at issue.

    The sin, according to the 7-deadlies, is 'greed.' It is recognized that "wealth" is an aspect of greed, but that wealth itself is not fault. Rather, ones actions concerning the gain of wealth, and ones perspective on that wealth, are the aspects of greed. If you steal, swindle, cheat, monger, etc, for your wealth, then you are indeed being greedy and committing the sin. If instead you gain your wealth honestly, you give of your self to others and God, and you recognize that the material world is not as important as Heaven, then wealth simply becomes an aspect of living successfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    If you read the bible, the 1st 3 commandments demand absolute obedience. Read it. Sorry, I cannot quote the exact location.
    Okay, according to the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy, the first three Commandments are thus:

    1. You shall have no other gods before me
    2. You shall not make for yourself an idol
    3. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God

    Of course, we have to bear in mind that although these Commandments are written out as plainly as this in many places, their original sources (language) are more complex. So, these -ten- Commandments represent interpretations themselves.

    Anyway, I don't see what the big deal is. This isn't "here's how to follow your favorite NASCAR driver," this is "here's how to follow GOD."

    Given the historical context of the time period, if the Commandments can be seen as an attempt to "clean up" the confusion and separation, then the above three Commandments are expected.

    If you're going to be a follower of God, why would you follow someone else?

    Do not worship idols, worship God.

    Don't assume the will of God for your own.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    ...displaying a pathetic understanding of biology. All animals are self serving.
    The lion, of course, is only a symbol of greed.
    In symbology, no, but as an animal, perhaps. Although it depends on the perspective. From the lion's point of view, is it really greed?

    There's a couple of factors here:

    1. Is this greed, or survival?
    2. Is the lion capable of understanding the concept of greed?

    If the lion is killing prey just to have meat, or acquiring females just to have them, that might be greed.

    The lion is biologically inclined to do what it does to the greatest extent possible, because that is what it does to survive. The more food it has, the more powerful it can be, the larger the pride grows, the safer they are. That's pretty much all it knows and cares about. The concept of sharing is counterintuitive because it goes against the goals of the pride.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Communism isn't a religion o.O, it's a form of government.
    Governments do not commit genocides. Only religions do.
    Where the heck did you get that from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    The popes version of Christ as a sacrifice and the US Constitutional version of Christianity...
    What IS the US Constitutional version of Christianity, Cosmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Well, the superiority of weapons as shown by the lion and the Sphinx as a replacement of the lion,...
    Sphinx?

    As for the lion, symbolically the lion stands for strength, power, determination, courage, and the heart. Never mentioned as the symbol of greed, but sometimes as a symbol of arousal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    To All

    Reducing this argument to details, does not provide soluions to the problems.
    According to this thread, this is the only problem we're discussing:
    ...why greed exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Was it the religion that spread Christianity or 'guns and cannon'?
    Without taking a page from "Guns, Germs, and Steel" the guns are just a means, not a purpose or a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    The leadership are primarily chauvinists motivated by greed, as a rule.
    I'll agree that some of the problems in history (and today) with a religious background were caused by greedy individuals at the "top"...but to say it's a "rule" is ignorance of the facts. It does not say in any of the texts that the religious leaders should be "greedy and have everything". If for anything, the religious texts ascribe the same responsibilities to any leaders, as to the masses.

    In the end, large-scale religious organizations, such as Catholicism, are both a religious and political institution. The manner of organization and social influence has dictated far more impact on the behaviors of the Church, than the texts themselves.

    When a religious leader builds a church, if he does so for the "glory of God" that's one thing, and if he does it for the glory of himself, that's another.

    Although the Bible doesn't really say anything about requiring the construction of expensive churches, it certainly doesn't say anything along the lines of "build a great church for yourself."


    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Cats do not have the ability to perceive of themselves as superior, despite the overwhelming amount of human characteristics people love to heap on them.
    I would have thought that you'd disagree with this, paralith? :? People in general might heap human characteristics onto animals, when in reality those attributes are pretty common among mammals and only differ in complexity.
    True. The anthropomorphization of animals (among other things) has been a long-time facet of religious (and scientific) argument. It is probably more correct to study animals (in relation to human behavior) as purified instances of various traits, but also the causes of those traits. A squirrel gathering up nuts may take more than it actually needs, but its motivations for doing so are not greed oriented. It simply knows that it needs to gather as many nuts as it can so that it can survive. Since the squirrel is incapable of contemplating the amount of its "harvest" it can't really be seen as selfishness (greed) when it seeks more nuts or quarrels with others for those nuts in scarcity.

    From the human perspective, we are capable of understanding our material world and its impacts. Unfortunately, with the lack of a uniform global society and a precision distribution of needs and comforts, we are left to squabble over the distribution of resources as-is, based on our own ideals. Does this diminish the negativity of greed? Not really. It probably only explains it.

    The justifications of greed are numerous, and it all depends on the ideals we set ourselves to that determines where we draw the line between "good greed" and "bad greed." If we take the Bible literally, then anyone who recognizes Heaven as "above all" and is charitable, can be a capitalist and not be greedy. If we take a 15th-century hermit's viewpoint, any wealth or possession, even a cave from which to keep dry in, is a sin. Where do we draw the line?

    But let's not forget that "greed" isn't limited to money or possessions, either. You can be greedy in love, greedy in hate, greedy in pleasure. You can even be greedy in the sufferings of others, and be greedy with the idea of not being greedy. And, ironically, you can also be greedy with greed. :?
    Wolf
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    "Be fair with others, but then keep after them until they're fair with you." Alan Alda
    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Cats do not have the ability to perceive of themselves as superior, despite the overwhelming amount of human characteristics people love to heap on them.
    I would have thought that you'd disagree with this, paralith? :? People in general might heap human characteristics onto animals, when in reality those attributes are pretty common among mammals and only differ in complexity.
    I did not disagree because it is most likely that cats do not have the ability to "perceive of themselves as superior" in the way that humans perceive of themselves as superior to other species of animals. In the animal mind, you have dominant and subordinate. While it's true that a cat may think of himself as dominant to his owner, he does not do so because he thinks cats as a species are better than humans. He does so because he's viewing his owner as though he were another cat. I don't think most animals have the cognitive ability to rank their own species over another. There is a possibility that I am wrong in this case, as so much of the animal mind is still a mystery to us, but it's not a very high one.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,114
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying people are greedy because their religious texts tell them to be greedy?
    The people are followers and just work to survive.
    You still haven't directly answered my question. If Christians were not told that they won't go to heaven unless they dispose of their wealth, then they would be greedy? Are you saying the only reason they're not greedy is because an authority figure is telling them not to be?
    I just answered your question above.
    People are just followers. They are concerned with survival.
    Once they reach a degree of subsisting to their satisfaction, they are satisfied.

    Greedy chauvinists, on the other hand, keep stuffing dollars way over and above their survival level. That is GREED.

    The lion, of course, is only a symbol of greed.
    Well for pete's sake, we're having this argument over an effing symbol? Then why on earth did you try to say that the male lion has a mane because of chauvinism? If all you're talking about is symbols used by various governments and/or religions, then that has no bearing on the actual biology of the animal.
    We all copy the animal behaviors.
    The lion ALONE exhibits this separation of dress(?) from the female.
    The tigers, leopards, jaguars, NA mountain lions, bobcats and any others DO NOT exhibit this kind of separation.
    So it stands out like a sore thumb. Can you get that?

    Cosmo
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    I just answered your question above.
    People are just followers. They are concerned with survival.
    Once they reach a degree of subsisting to their satisfaction, they are satisfied.

    Greedy chauvinists, on the other hand, keep stuffing dollars way over and above their survival level. That is GREED.
    People are nothing but followers yet they make their own decision when they decide they've reached a reasonable degree of subsistence? You can't have it both ways. Either THEY ONLY FOLLOW what they're told or THEY DECIDE when to stop "stuffing dollars away."

    We all copy the animal behaviors.
    The lion ALONE exhibits this separation of dress(?) from the female.
    The tigers, leopards, jaguars, NA mountain lions, bobcats and any others DO NOT exhibit this kind of separation.
    So it stands out like a sore thumb. Can you get that?

    Cosmo
    Can you get that there are other animals on this planet besides cats? Like, lots and lots and lots of other animals on this planet? Or are cats the only ones that matter when it comes to choosing the symbols of human avarice?

    There are tons of birds who exhibit this - just off the top of my head, house sparrows, house finches, cardinals, most species of duck, many species of parrots, many species of pheasants, birds of paradise, PEACOCKS. For goodness sake if there's ever a classic example of the male being far and beyond more extravagant than his mate it's the peacock.



    Here's a few more examples. They're even mammals. Maybe then you can "get that."







    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    969
    Stark differences between the male and female of a species is common in the animal kingdom (and it is not always the male who is the showy one). However, what does this have to do with greed?

    If we are to examine the lion species in its male/female differences, it is a poor study. The lion's mane serves a function other than mate-attraction. Other species of animals have features which are purely for mate-attraction, which would be a better focus for such an examination.

    However, is seeking the best mate greed? And even if so, is it the wrong kind of greed?
    Wolf
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    "Be fair with others, but then keep after them until they're fair with you." Alan Alda
    Reply With Quote  
     

  37. #36  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    Male lions always eat there fill before the rest of the pride can get a turn. Greed? The female lions do most of the hunting, so the male has to be the best fed for defending the pride and for dominance squabbles I’d imagine. That seems to me to at least partly explain greed in humans?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  38. #37  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Because food is hard to get. It has evolved from history and still means the same thing. Except we now have to overide our subconscious with our conscious mind.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  39. #38  
    Forum Ph.D. Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    969
    Still depends on the actual nature of the act of eating first. If the male lion is capable of understanding quantity, and is actually seeking to take as much meat as it can for the simple act of having it, then it might be greed. Otherwise it is more likely for other reasons.
    Wolf
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    "Be fair with others, but then keep after them until they're fair with you." Alan Alda
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •