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Thread: Human Dogma

  1. #1 Human Dogma 
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    *Beginning of Rambling*

    "To believe" can be synonymous "to think", but that's not the kind of belief I'm pointing at. I want to talk about dogmatic belief or faith. On a scientific perspective, what is it useful for? Obviously it's a huge motivator, enough so to make people kill themselves for "the cause", be it islam or something else. Faith is the belief in the absense of evidence, but also a "cause" in which is percieved to hold great value making people, as allready stated, do crazy things.

    Is it useful today? The way I see it, faith is a huge factor for division between mankind these days. It holds not a lot of purpose (exept for the people of the faith). All it does is to teach people to be arrogant and ignorant (mostly), making them believe they are more enlightened because of "the cause."

    They percieve everyone who's different and doesn't hold to the standard of the cause unworthy, worthless and also dangerous. They fear difference, and this fear cause hate.

    The only useful aspects of a faith/religion is that it brings hope and meaning to the person who believes in it. Only tragic thing is that this false fixed belief, this delusion, is no more than false hope. It teaches us not to accept things for what they are, to reject reality either because it's to difficult to face or something else. The meaning gained from a faith/religion is basicly an illusion, for what meaning is actually gained from religion?

    Religion, or faith, might always exist, but what purpose does it have today? It demands a lot of respect and it hates to be questioned. It's a childish fantasy, it's useless. It causes more problems than it solves.

    Faith brings people together (mostly as long as it's the same faith), and there's a sort of group solidarity involved. Can't we gain this some other way? We all strive to become a part of something, why must we go so far as to "fool" ourselves to believe some ridiculous story so that we can gain this group solidarity? Surely there must be an alternative to faith, something better?

    *End of Rambling*

    *The Point*


    Will makind always hate itself? Is there nothing we can do? Variety will always exist, we're all different, but we seem to be unable to accept that fact. We fear difference, is that why we fail?

    *End of Point*

    Before I write a whole book, I should perhaps stop there

    I focused mostly on religion, because greed and power is something I see as evolutionary traits. Dogma, which was the real issue I was focusing on, creates more problems than it solves. Is it lack of understanding for eachother which is the issue? Can dogma be defined as a lack of understanding mixed with intentional ignorance?

    *Obsessive* Have to stop writing! Have to stop! ARGH!


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  3. #2  
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    lol at your last comments. Well people when they first have religion it is IMPERATIVE that they understand what they are doing. Every holy book in someway is contradictory, I'm lucky that I've had my wiseful Auntie to teach me a few things. First of all I've learned that if your not careful with how you go about religion and learning it, you could end up following the Bible like a computer does its program, and seeing as many people take The Bible quite literally = very dangerous. Remember folks, archeology is half metaphor.

    Its not chidlish Obviously, don't insult my intelligence by reffering that it is please. I personally am a different to everyone else and believer simply because God wants me to. I don't ask why I believe, if I'm happy, if I'm sad, if I'm eager, if I'm afraid, I just believe and that is that with me. As for everyone else they are literal with the Holy Books and hence get stuck in this whirlwind that is a spiraling path of contradiction, hence they get mad and start killing people. There is a lot of shit in this world and a lot of people when they are young don't have mummy and daddy to look after them, so many find themselves at wits end and choose a religion someway. As I say, mine happended over night, no reason. Although everyone seems to think it is because of a reason.

    Consider this before I FOUND RELIGION. I wasn't intelligent, I wasn't charismatic or charming, I wasn't fit and I wasn't able to comprehend a lot of things. Now I can and in a very short space of time. NOTHING like that happens in this world without something going on, which I refer to as; The Fruits Of The Holy Spirit. No atheists understand. You are that fixated with there not being God or anything that cannot be proven with physical evidence. Which I can find a number of reasons why that is so. Folks need heros people, someone they can look up to, be a part of. Don't take that away simply because you are afraid to admit there may be more controlling you than you think.

    You are in denial Obviously because you have once believed and believe it or not, even to your last breath if you still don't believe theneven in that last breath you will, there is no escaping it. Christ is in us all. AND ONLY MAY ONE ENTER THE FATHER BUT THROUGH JESUS-The Son. Accept Christ as your savior and then all shall be revealed.

    Say if I'm, talking gobbldy gook as always if you like but if this makes sense to me and a lot of other people, it has to be true.


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    You are that fixated with there not being God or anything that cannot be proven with physical evidence.
    We are concearned for blind faith in something irrelevant. Mixing fantasy with reality creates dogma. Your world suddenly becomes the real world, so the real world isn't important anymore, only your faith. You don't appreatiate life and decide to devout your life to something unknown, something comforting that gives you false hope, just so you can escape reality.
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    You are that fixated with there not being God or anything that cannot be proven with physical evidence.
    We are concearned for blind faith in something irrelevant. Mixing fantasy with reality creates dogma. Your world suddenly becomes the real world, so the real world isn't important anymore, only your faith. You don't appreatiate life and decide to devout your life to something unknown, something comforting that gives you false hope, just so you can escape reality.
    Well your wrong because thats not what I do. Stop stereotyping, thats all atheists problems. black or white.
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  6. #5 Re: Human Dogma 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    *The Point*

    Will makind always hate itself? Is there nothing we can do? Variety will always exist, we're all different, but we seem to be unable to accept that fact. We fear difference, is that why we fail?

    *End of Point*
    One of my favorite science fiction books involves an alien race that takes it upon themselves to save humanity. They can read DNA like we read books, and because we are both intelligent and hierarchical, they believe that we are doomed to eventually kill each other, using our intelligence to find ways to conquer and destroy each other in search of dominance. In their minds, to allow us to go on alone would be nothing short of showing us the way to the cliff we'll jump from.

    My point here is that one thing about this is true - we are highly intelligent, and we are hierarchical. The dogmatic nature of beliefs, be they religious or otherwise, creates a solidarity and a passion within a group that can give them the edge over other groups. It further motivates us to bend our intelligence towards that goal of dominance over our competitors. I'm sure I don't need to go into specific examples of religious groups dominating the landscape and killing/integrating/otherwise effectively destroying any competing groups. And the most successful human groups of this nature usually contain strict hierarchies. Governments, religions, armies. This pattern is deeply inbred in our nature. I think it's safe to say that all group living primates operate on a hierarchy, as well as a good deal of group living non-primate species.

    I personally think that the key to overcoming this instinct is to first acknowledge that we have it, and to instead bend our intelligence to find ways to overcome it and rise beyond it. How exactly I don't know. Nor do I know if our hierarchical, competitive nature has destined us for eventual self annihilation. But things definitely don't look too good at this point.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  7. #6 Re: Human Dogma 
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    I personally think that the key to overcoming this instinct is to first acknowledge that we have it, and to instead bend our intelligence to find ways to overcome it and rise beyond it. How exactly I don't know. Nor do I know if our hierarchical, competitive nature has destined us for eventual self annihilation. But things definitely don't look too good at this point.
    That's about how I look at it too. Understanding has to be the key.
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    I am hierarchial to protect others. I'd never use my intelligence to get one up on someone else. Never.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I am hierarchial to protect others. I'd never use my intelligence to get one up on someone else. Never.
    That's kind of a paradox, svwillmer. To rise in a hierarchy is to be one up over someone else, by some measurement or another. And protecting those you value against those you don't is in essence promoting the success of your group.

    It can be done with good intentions, to be sure. But if you do anything blindly without understanding why, people can fall in to the easy trap of doing it for ill.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  10. #9  
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    I don't do ill. And hierarchy is needed to maintain order anyway. The universe is going from chaos to order paralith.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I don't do ill. And hierarchy is needed to maintain order anyway. The universe is going from chaos to order paralith.
    Did I say that hierarchy is not needed? Obviously it serves groups quite well if this behavioral pattern evolved in the great majority of group living animals. But the drive to climb the hierarchy and gain dominance over others can cause a great deal of ill to the individuals involved.

    I don't claim to know anything about physics, but I thought the second law of thermodynamics says that the universe as a whole is always increasing in entropy. I don't think universal order has much to do with the discussion at hand, anyway.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  12. #11  
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    Everything in this universe is going towards order. Everything, including this discussion, and since we are talking about entropy and TSLOTD I guess this is a 'flame' topic, . Get it? Don't make me summon Maxwell's demon .

    I aspire to get to the top, but not at the expense of hurting others, if I do I shall surely one day equalise that pain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I aspire to get to the top, but not at the expense of hurting others, if I do I shall surely one day equalise that pain.
    Relax, man. I'm not trying to judge you. I'm talking about people on average, not just you.

    what's tsloft?
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I aspire to get to the top, but not at the expense of hurting others, if I do I shall surely one day equalise that pain.
    Relax, man. I'm not trying to judge you. I'm talking about people on average, not just you.

    what's tsloft?
    The second law of fermo tynamics, sorry thats my bad. The Second law of thermodynamics.

    BTW, your up early aren't you? Or haven't you gone to bed yet :P?
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    This topic was originally made to explore why we have faith. Why do we believe in things that explains technically nothing and creates more problems than it solves? Why are we dogmatic? Is it childish behaviour, or is it linked to some instinct or something that we should blindly trust that some wierd unexplainable and incomprehensible entity called God created the universe? And why don't we question it? Why do we hide our faith from rationalization and logic? Why do we try so hard to make the faith rational when it clearly isn't?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    This topic was originally made to explore why we have faith. Why do we believe in things that explains technically nothing and creates more problems than it solves? Why are we dogmatic? Is it childish behaviour, or is it linked to some instinct or something that we should blindly trust that some wierd unexplainable and incomprehensible entity called God created the universe? And why don't we question it? Why do we hide our faith from rationalization and logic? Why do we try so hard to make the faith rational?
    Because God exists. And He who controls them, IS God. And it IS possible to control the laws of physics. God is the only one who controls them all. And more than we can imagine. He can make himself invisible, undetectable, confuse you, rise you up, save you, give you a sixth sense, give you a time machine. He can do anything He pleases because He is everything and everywhere and all knowing. Thats why He exists, and my belief? Is because God has it that I believe In Him and Christ. Rationlisation is irrelevant, people are allowed to do it however, including me. But I haven't realised that I rationalise, I just do it, I am a puppet of God as are all those who have faith and deeds in The LORD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Because God exists. And He who controls them, IS God. And it IS possible to control the laws of physics. God is the only one who controls them all. And more than we can imagine. He can make himself invisible, undectable, confuse you, rise you up, save you, give you a sixth sense, give you a time machine. He can do anything He pleases because He is everything and everywhere and all knowing. Thats why He exists, and my belief? Is because God has it that I believe In Him and Christ. Rationlisation is irrelevant, people are allowed to do it however, including me. But I haven't realised that I rationalise, I just do it, I am a puppet of God as are all those who have faith and deeds in The LORD.
    Why should anyone believe that? Why do people believe that?
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Because God exists. And He who controls them, IS God. And it IS possible to control the laws of physics. God is the only one who controls them all. And more than we can imagine. He can make himself invisible, undectable, confuse you, rise you up, save you, give you a sixth sense, give you a time machine. He can do anything He pleases because He is everything and everywhere and all knowing. Thats why He exists, and my belief? Is because God has it that I believe In Him and Christ. Rationlisation is irrelevant, people are allowed to do it however, including me. But I haven't realised that I rationalise, I just do it, I am a puppet of God as are all those who have faith and deeds in The LORD.
    Why should anyone believe that?
    Because I do. And if one can, so can all because if Jesus is in me He is in you and is in all.
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    So dogma derives from pure will. If you want yourself to believe something strong enough, eventually you will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    So dogma derives from pure will. If you want yourself to believe something strong enough, eventually you will.
    No.
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    "I wish something could make me believe, I really hope to see a sign, no matter how small, it will be enough." Perhaps this is how the will/mind decides to convince itself - by looking for "signs." After the sign has come, it could be anything, the mind is set and sure. Then the faith is born, making the person believe what he/she wants. Maybe the motive is to become a part of a group, or perhaps it's just so the person can feel special?

    Is this a possible explanation? Illusion of the will?

    But it couldn't have started this way, could it?
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    No, a sign is not a sign. I've only ever acknoqledged one sign and that was when I asked for it and numerous ones came at the same time so I would not disregard the one. There were like 5 at once and now I know what I must do. It is not an illusion Obviously and you know it isn't.
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    and you know it isn't.
    Why do you keep saying this kind of thing? Is it because he used to be religious? And what signs are you talking about?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    and you know it isn't.
    Why do you keep saying this kind of thing?
    Because you know deep down, you are. And you can feel it and are trying to halt it regressing. Just a sign that I asked for if something God showed me was real.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    and you know it isn't.
    Why do you keep saying this kind of thing?
    Because you know deep down, you are. And you can feel it and are trying to halt it regressing. Just a sign that I asked for if something God showed me was real.
    Nonsense. You are in no possition to say that. So you think that if we believed like you believe and one should believe, you will never become atheist again? I did go through periods of intense belief, if you recall our past conversations. :?
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    and you know it isn't.
    Why do you keep saying this kind of thing?
    Because you know deep down, you are. And you can feel it and are trying to halt it regressing. Just a sign that I asked for if something God showed me was real.
    Nonsense. You are in no possition to say that. So you think that if we believed like you believe and one should believe, you will never become atheist again? I did go through periods of intense belief, if you recall our past conversations. :?
    No your statment is not what you claim mine to have meant. I am in every position to say that, its a free world, the truth must come out. Intense belief my point exactly, too much of something...too much of anything...
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    I am in every position to say that, its a free world, the truth must come out.
    And this is MY point. You can say whatever you want, but you can't know it to be true, since you have no idea what I and others have gone through to end up the atheists we have. For me, it has been from a strong belief to none at all over a period of time. You have no experience of this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    I am in every position to say that, its a free world, the truth must come out.
    And this is MY point. You can say whatever you want, but you can't know it to be true, since you have no idea what I and others have gone through to end up the atheists we have. For me, it has been from a strong belief to none at all over a period of time. You have no experience of this.
    I'm sure I have otherwise I wouldn't be talking about it or try to express authority over the matter.
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    Well, have you gone through that? By the way, I think few people recognize your "authority".
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    Authority? Oh, i'm sorry. I didn't know. -bows to the president-. Please don't take my sunshine away.
    "First we build the tools, then they build us" - Marshall McLuhan.
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    Did you read a self-help book or something? And don't say the Bible.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Paralith wrote:
    The dogmatic nature of beliefs, be they religious or otherwise, creates a solidarity and a passion within a group that can give them the edge over other groups. It further motivates us to bend our intelligence towards that goal of dominance over our competitors. I'm sure I don't need to go into specific examples of religious groups dominating the landscape and killing/integrating/otherwise effectively destroying any competing groups.
    Agreed. While we might like to target religion as the bete noir, dogmatic beliefs can spring up in scientific endeavors too. Job preservation, competition for funding, priorly invested time and effort, status, can lead to a loss of objectivity about a pet theory. Some would claim that string theory is currently a dogma that sucks in all the funding, preventing progress in other ideas.
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    The authority I'm talking about its the way I am going about answering posts. Not the self proclaimed way you are stating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury
    Paralith wrote:
    The dogmatic nature of beliefs, be they religious or otherwise, creates a solidarity and a passion within a group that can give them the edge over other groups. It further motivates us to bend our intelligence towards that goal of dominance over our competitors. I'm sure I don't need to go into specific examples of religious groups dominating the landscape and killing/integrating/otherwise effectively destroying any competing groups.
    Agreed. While we might like to target religion as the bete noir, dogmatic beliefs can spring up in scientific endeavors too. Job preservation, competition for funding, priorly invested time and effort, status, can lead to a loss of objectivity about a pet theory. Some would claim that string theory is currently a dogma that sucks in all the funding, preventing progress in other ideas.
    I would agree with you on string theory I think physicists are really going the wrong way about explaining the universe and have no reason really to suspect string theory is correct.
    so (although this sounds like its just teasing the definition of being dogmatic) but can we call science dogmatic to the point at which there is sufficient evidence to render it true/false. One had to believe/suspect Einstein until the stars were observed during the eclipse. Is dogmatic really just the term being used here for scientific "faith" that people sometimes like to use.

    I dont think you can call something evidentially proven as dogmatic.
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  35. #34  
    Forum Isotope Bunbury's Avatar
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    I dont think you can call something evidentially proven as dogmatic.
    No, I don't either, but string theories are not in that category. Refusal to contemplate alternatives to a group of ideas that has defied proof and has no empirical support does seem to me to qualify as being dogmatic.

    I really just wanted to support Paralith's insight, that dogma is not restricted to religion. No string-bashing intended.
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    It's wierd isn't it, one might think that we should've overcome dogma by now, right?
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    It's wierd isn't it, one might think that we should've overcome dogma by now, right?
    Should we have? Should we have an easy time overcoming a behavior that has long brought groups and the individuals comprising them greater success? A highly dogmatic opponent is a hard one to beat.

    Interest in the greater good for a whole species does not exist in nature. Human interest in this greater good is more or less a side effect of our increased intelligence, combined with an extrapolation of brotherly feeling that arose in the context of a limited group of people - around 150 at most, not several billion. Though it makes sense intellectually, all the genes at the base of our consciousness simply do not function that way. The seat of our emotions was never meant to handle something like the careful consideration of the lives and happiness of billions upon billions of people who we will never see or know.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  38. #37  
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    It's like we want to hate eachother. It's like we want divide ourselves in one big power game to see who's the best. The way I see it, dogma is useless these days.
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  39. #38  
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    No, I don't either, but string theories are not in that category. Refusal to contemplate alternatives to a group of ideas that has defied proof and has no empirical support does seem to me to qualify as being dogmatic.
    I agree but at the same time I think his could have a societal benefit if individuals stick with their theories until the right one is proven correct. If nobody just accepted their theory to be correct they wouldn't have huge motivation to work on it and develop it. As long as they are happy to turn around and admit defeat when sufficient evidence against the theory arises.

    So I would say dogma may be useless to an individual but could have benefits in the context of science until said person is proved wrong.

    Again, I might just be tweaking with the definition of dogma though!
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  40. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Stop stereotyping, thats all atheists problems
    Anyone else notice that? :P
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  41. #40  
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    Brilliant!
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Stop stereotyping, thats all atheists problems
    Anyone else notice that? :P
    Oh yea, well spotted.

    *LEAVES QUITELY*



    Equal forces cancelled out.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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