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Thread: Is sexual orientation a product of nature or nurture?

  1. #1 Is sexual orientation a product of nature or nurture? 
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    Evening All, im conducting a research project that looks at the science, ethics and philosophy behind sexual orientation and what determines it.

    Was going to look at.
    Arguments for Genetics
    Arguments against Genetics.
    What else it could be.

    The ethical impact that discovery would produce.

    I'm unsure what to write about with the philosophical area.

    Any comments or suggestion welcome.


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  3. #2  
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    You forgot the option of both. Which is the answer to most if not all nature/nurture behavioral questions.


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  4. #3  
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    you want the best available scientific answer ? no-one knows for sure
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  5. #4  
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    Genetics does play a role in predisposition. But how they are raised largely dictates their growth in those areas. So I pick "nurture". since there are only two questions, simply answer which one you think MOST decides it.

    If any of you recall a post where I introduced the topic of memory recall and attraction, you'll find it can also be applied here. But don't tell politics that. While it's true gays have a small amount of "choice", it doesn't last for long. It's a lot like depression, once it's progressed nothing can stop it.

    But the entire matter angers me anyway. Sexual orientation, in my opinion, is nothing but a socially-engineered barrier. Granted, probably one that has been with us since before the dawn of time, but one we would probably do better without.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    Genetics does play a role in predisposition. But how they are raised largely dictates their growth in those areas. So I pick "nurture". since there are only two questions, simply answer which one you think MOST decides it.

    If any of you recall a post where I introduced the topic of memory recall and attraction, you'll find it can also be applied here. But don't tell politics that. While it's true gays have a small amount of "choice", it doesn't last for long. It's a lot like depression, once it's progressed nothing can stop it.

    But the entire matter angers me anyway. Sexual orientation, in my opinion, is nothing but a socially-engineered barrier. Granted, probably one that has been with us since before the dawn of time, but one we would probably do better without.
    Are you currently studying psychology Jeremy? Your posts have suddenly started becoming more that way and also you have become nicer .
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  7. #6  
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    ...I began study of psychology over two years ago. I've always been a fiercely analytical person when it comes to the human mind.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    Genetics does play a role in predisposition. But how they are raised largely dictates their growth in those areas. So I pick "nurture". since there are only two questions, simply answer which one you think MOST decides it.
    Even so, our very ability to have a differential response to various environmental factors is still based on our genes. So while the proximate cause may be largely environmental, the mechanism is still based in genetics. Kind a semantics issue, I know, but that's how I see it, so in my personal opinion it's a good idea to always keep both in mind.

    But the entire matter angers me anyway. Sexual orientation, in my opinion, is nothing but a socially-engineered barrier. Granted, probably one that has been with us since before the dawn of time, but one we would probably do better without.
    I agree. Intra-gender sexual interactions are present in other animals as well, particularly in bonobos, our closest relatives. While obviously different from a reproductive relationship, there's no reason to think of same-sex relationships as unnatural.
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  9. #8  
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    My experties in evolution and genetics is very limited but i was interested in looking at natural selection when it comes to homosexuals.

    If there was a genetic coding for homosexuality then because the carrier would have been ill suited and not reproduced ( due to being homosexual ) wouldn't the gene have become extinct by now.

    I am personally undecided thats why i am doing this research project. So i can understand a concept which i can't comprehend
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  10. #9  
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    There IS no "homosexual gene". This retarded idea is the result of politics. What there ARE, are a number of genes that COULD lead to homosexuality depending on your experiences in life. This means they could allow the user to reproduce.
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    I always put homosexuality down to inbalances/different levels of hormones, whether thats been studied or not, im unsure

    could too much or too little of a male or female hormone be a possible reason, or has this been ruled out?
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    My experties in evolution and genetics is very limited but i was interested in looking at natural selection when it comes to homosexuals.

    If there was a genetic coding for homosexuality then because the carrier would have been ill suited and not reproduced ( due to being homosexual ) wouldn't the gene have become extinct by now.

    I am personally undecided thats why i am doing this research project. So i can understand a concept which i can't comprehend
    As jeremy says:
    There IS no "homosexual gene". This retarded idea is the result of politics. What there ARE, are a number of genes that COULD lead to homosexuality depending on your experiences in life. This means they could allow the user to reproduce.
    From an evolutionary standpoint, intra-gender sexual interactions are used by bonobo females to strengthen their alliances with each other. This is important for them as females are the dominant gender in bonobos. They still, however, reproduce with males. I would expect that human males in particular would be most likely to use sexual interactions to strengthen their relationships as well, as males were the dominant gender during the evolution of humans. And the males that form the best alliances can dominate their social group, and reserve the majority of mating opportunities, with females, for themselves. This is how a degree of sexual attraction for members of your own gender can be adaptive and selected for. And once the gene suite that influences this behavior is in place, as jeremy says, a higher than average dose of these genes and/or environmental stimuli can push some individuals to the extreme of actual repulsion for members of the opposite gender.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    I always put homosexuality down to inbalances/different levels of hormones, whether thats been studied or not, im unsure

    could too much or too little of a male or female hormone be a possible reason, or has this been ruled out?
    I've observed many men that lack enough testosterone for any real muscular development. A lot of gay/bisexual people have normal testosterone, however. Just choose not to exercise. That rules out testosterone as a main cause.

    Hormone imbalances can lead to a predisposition, but it isn't the only reason for it (and rarely is in my experience). It's been studied many times before.
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    There IS no "homosexual gene". This retarded idea is the result of politics. What there ARE, are a number of genes that COULD lead to homosexuality depending on your experiences in life
    This is a good point
    I too don't believe homosexuality is purely genetic

    Identical twins - both twins aren't always gay.

    evolution arguments.


    I also agree with the second point about a number of genes that could lead to homosexuality.

    I'm not sure of the exact study but i think it was that in identical twins if one is gay the other is 50% more likely to be gay.
    This could show genetics but also environmental if they live in close proximity.

    Also younger brothers are more likely to be gay.

    can someone confirm these for me
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    can someone confirm these for me
    that's something you should do yourself. Go to PubMed or PLoS ONE, and with perseverance you'll probably be able to find the articles about the very studies that you are referring to.
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    I always put homosexuality down to inbalances/different levels of hormones, whether thats been studied or not, im unsure

    could too much or too little of a male or female hormone be a possible reason, or has this been ruled out?
    I've observed many men that lack enough testosterone for any real muscular development. A lot of gay/bisexual people have normal testosterone, however. Just choose not to exercise. That rules out testosterone as a main cause.

    Hormone imbalances can lead to a predisposition, but it isn't the only reason for it (and rarely is in my experience). It's been studied many times before.
    ah ok, what about the certain percentage of camp(or more feminine) homosexuals(in repsect to soft voices, feminine gate etc), is that a learn't pattern, nature of a bit of both, i dont mean that most gays are like kenneth williams or dale winton(if you are uk you'll know what i mean)

    Ive met/seen quite a few homosexuals in my life, who do have a very feminine twist to them and just wondered what caused that effect, ive also seen a percentage of whats know as dyke lesbians(a gay term, not mine), which is a more masculine woman in repect to gate, and mannerisms
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    That's a learned habbit to make themselves more appealing to other men. Unless you're talking about the stereotypical lisping morons, they're just morons.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    That's a learned habbit to make themselves more appealing to other men. Unless you're talking about the stereotypical lisping morons, they're just morons.
    I had a guy in primary school with me, before he reached sexual maturity, who had the feminine walk and voice. We all knew he was gay ten years before he came out the closet.

    Another kid from high school, the same. People avoided him for years due to his homosexuality, yet he never loved his fellow man until matric.

    I worked in the art scene for a long period of time. So I've known many men who've gone from straight to bisexual to gay. All of them, everyone knew they were gay already.

    I don't understand how it could be a learned habit to appeal to men, since all of these guys have had those same traits since before sexual maturity? Before they had any concept of being appealing to either sex?

    That said though, I do know one guy suddenly had a different voice a week after coming out the closet. And yes, he was a moron.
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  19. #18  
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    You assume it's a CONSCIOUS habit. It's a subconscious trait to make you more appealing to the sex of your choice. Much like how you may act different around women than you do around men.
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    Homsexual men i have met still keep the feminine twist and camp voice talking to both genders.

    Does this still make it a subconscious act trying to make you more attractive to the sex of your choice?
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    I'd guess that you'd use the same tone of voice as a means of proclaiming your affiliation. Also it would be, I think, a more conscious choice to talk like that in that instance, than subconsciously adapting your voice to fit the usual voice of a person attracted to men. Women feel less tensioned when a man has a feminine voice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    You assume it's a CONSCIOUS habit. It's a subconscious trait to make you more appealing to the sex of your choice. Much like how you may act different around women than you do around men.
    I'm not assuming it's a conscious habit. I'm assuming it's a subconscious habit, with the exception of the last case I mentioned, when it was clearly conscious. What I'm saying, is that the guys I've known have always had those habits. Even before sexual maturity, they were already extremely feminine. They were not sexually mature and had no concept of being sexually appealing. Are you saying that they were subconsciously wiring themselves prior to sexual maturity to appeal to their own sex, post sexual maturity?
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    Homsexual men i have met still keep the feminine twist and camp voice talking to both genders.

    Does this still make it a subconscious act trying to make you more attractive to the sex of your choice?
    You need to be observant. Nobody talks exactly the same to different people. That's both improbable and inconsistent.

    Gay men, on average, prefer men with feminine qualities. You could probably find a statistic somewhere to prove this. With a majority of gay couples having a submissive/dominating partner. How you act determines which one you attract, and how you act is also based upon your predisposition.

    The only reason you aren't consciously aware of it, is because it's part of your personality. Like attracts like and such.

    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    I'd guess that you'd use the same tone of voice as a means of proclaiming your affiliation. Also it would be, I think, a more conscious choice to talk like that in that instance, than subconsciously adapting your voice to fit the usual voice of a person attracted to men. Women feel less tensioned when a man has a feminine voice.
    That's because women view it as "one of their own". Thus being relaxed. If a person is gay, then chances are they're friends with a lot of women for this reason.

    As for what you're trying to convey, I'm afraid your point was lost in a lot of vague words. Try again please.

    Quote Originally Posted by TvEye
    Are you saying that they were subconsciously wiring themselves prior to sexual maturity to appeal to their own sex, post sexual maturity?
    yes, yes we are. This is largely dependant upon our environment, the people we associate with, etc. It's not necessarily "we" that do it, but everything around us that shapes it and what we like later in life. Our sexuality is defined in the years before we sexually mature.

    While I haven't had many opportunities to investigate these "feminine" traits in children, they probably have very distinct roots. I can wager a guess that most of them come from parenting mistakes or abuse.

    Also, sorry for reading wrong. My initial reply was made when I was very tired. :?
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  24. #23  
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    As for what you're trying to convey, I'm afraid your point was lost in a lot of vague words.
    Fair enough.
    I'd guess that you'd use the same tone of voice as a means of proclaiming your affiliation.
    What I meant was, that homosexuality is sometimes more than just sexual orientation. There is a homosexual subculture that might help a person out of the closet as it were. People belonging to this subculture might seem freer to express themselves, a potential way to lift some of the burdens off of one’s shoulders imposed by modern society. And then this person would “act gay” in all situations as a way to proclaim themselves as part of this subculture. Did that make sense?
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by TvEye
    Are you saying that they were subconsciously wiring themselves prior to sexual maturity to appeal to their own sex, post sexual maturity?
    Just as an addition to jeremy's response, just think of elementary school girls. I have two nieces, ages six and seven, and they love to dress up and they always want jewelry and every year they say they want make up for christmas. There's no denying that, whether they are conscious of it at this stage or not, these are behaviors related to attracting a mate. They're allowed and encouraged because they're "girly" behaviors, but mating behaviors none the less. So there's definitely nothing unusual about gay boys doing some prep work before sexual maturity either.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    What I meant was, that homosexuality is sometimes more than just sexual orientation. There is a homosexual subculture that might help a person out of the closet as it were. People belonging to this subculture might seem freer to express themselves, a potential way to lift some of the burdens off of one’s shoulders imposed by modern society. And then this person would “act gay” in all situations as a way to proclaim themselves as part of this subculture. Did that make sense?
    I'm quite certain that some people actually do that, but other explanations (such as mine and a few other posters) can also apply. So you make a valid point either way.

    Doesn't change the fact it usually makes them seem retarded.
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    Doesn't change the fact it usually makes them seem retarded
    It sure does sometimes .

    It is people like these that sometimes make me uncomfortable, because they seem to revel in their newfound and sometimes almost overwhelming (to them) sense of security, confidence and identity. As a result they sometimes love to overdo the whole act a bit in order to incur some shock and unease in others, even further reinforcing this sense of power.
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    Being camp and feminine doesn't that make someone a target of abuse and violence.

    Surely it would be more natural to cover up these features if someone was homosexual as a defense mechansim. A subconsious act perhaps
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    Being camp and feminine doesn't that make someone a target of abuse and violence.

    Surely it would be more natural to cover up these features if someone was homosexual as a defense mechansim. A subconsious act perhaps
    I quite clearly stated it was suspect of abuse. Which means it CAUSED the feminine behavior in childhood. You are not born with it. Such features are not inbred. They're based upon environment.
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    Of course it depends on the community. All sorts exist, yours as well.
    Of course it depends on the community. All sorts exist, yours as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    You are not born with it. Such features are not inbred. They're based upon environment.
    I wouldn't say that with 100% confidence. I think it's possible that some of these behaviors might have a genetic influence, especially if it is adaptive to have them.
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    I quite clearly stated it was suspect of abuse. Which means it CAUSED the feminine behavior in childhood
    many homsexual or camp people HAVEN'T BEEN ABUSED and still have feminine traits. I just don't think it is a subconscious act as it makes you a target to violence something no self respecting subconscious would allow =)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    I quite clearly stated it was suspect of abuse. Which means it CAUSED the feminine behavior in childhood
    many homsexual or camp people HAVEN'T BEEN ABUSED and still have feminine traits. I just don't think it is a subconscious act as it makes you a target to violence something no self respecting subconscious would allow (emphasis mine - paralith) =)
    That's assuming that these traits necessarily result in abuse. They may in modern culture, but that's only been around for a couple hundred years, half of a blink of an eye evolutionarily speaking. From a genetic standpoint, those behaviors wouldn't be selected against unless there significant negative consequences during their evolution. From an environmental standpoint, if you're influenced to develop these behaviors while growing up, but don't experience significant negative effects at the time of their formation, your "self respecting subconscious" will most certainly "allow" it.
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    From a genetic standpoint
    I think looking back over this argument homosexuality isn't largely controlled by genetics.

    With modern culture it is quite apparent that these traits can result in violence. I think the subconscious develops within one person a lot faster than evolution. Sub-conscious independent of genetics?
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    Jacketate, I think your posts are either stemming from terrible writing, or terrible misunderstandings of what we're saying.
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    I think genetics determine only a general trend that MIGHT be followed. It is the environment that has the final say. A person's base personality develops during the first 8 years of life. During these years, the child's parents/home environment play a huge part in this development and if certain conditions arise in this context, the child may subconsciously try to compensate by assuming a more feminine demeanor. During these years, there would be no threat to the person, so the feminine persuasion can develop freely. Only when the child gets subjected to more peer scrutiny, do the negative consequences of his feminine demeanor arise. By this time though, the person’s personality/persuasion is mostly fully formed and it is mostly too late for this person adapt in the opposite direction to compensate. IMO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    Jacketate, I think your posts are either stemming from terrible writing, or terrible misunderstandings of what we're saying.
    Anyone new you rip to shreds Jeremy. Interesting psychology. You don't seem to do it to me anymore. Why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Anyone new you rip to shreds Jeremy. Interesting psychology. You don't seem to do it to me anymore. Why?
    He probably figured you're from Derbyshire: You've got it bad enough already.
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    Jacketate, I think your posts are either stemming from terrible writing, or terrible misunderstandings of what we're saying.
    You seem to be saying that homosexual people act homosexual because they were abused as children and so subconsciously they act feminine. am i right so far?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TvEye
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Anyone new you rip to shreds Jeremy. Interesting psychology. You don't seem to do it to me anymore. Why?
    He probably figured you're from Derbyshire: You've got it bad enough already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    Jacketate, I think your posts are either stemming from terrible writing, or terrible misunderstandings of what we're saying.
    You seem to be saying that homosexual people act homosexual because they were abused as children and so subconsciously they act feminine. am i right so far?
    No. Keep reading what I said until it becomes clear, please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    No. Keep reading what I said until it becomes clear, please.
    I'm sorry jeremy, but I'm kind of confused. I've looked back through the thread a couple of times to get a clear of idea of what you were talking about but this post of yours:

    I quite clearly stated it was suspect of abuse. Which means it CAUSED the feminine behavior in childhood. You are not born with it. Such features are not inbred. They're based upon environment.
    is the first post where you mention anything being suspect of abuse in this thread. Are you talking about something you posted in a different thread?
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    is the first post where you mention anything being suspect of abuse in this thread. Are you talking about something you posted in a different thread?
    Context is very valuable there. I was correcting his interpreted mistake (or so I thought). In general, anything can cause it, I merely offered a common reason for most people. Childhood maltreatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    Being camp and feminine doesn't that make someone a target of abuse and violence.
    He, quite clearly, misinterpreted it. As the behavior is a "target of abuse and violence". I corrected him saying the above.
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    But would you agree that in modern society.

    Displaying campness and female traits can make you a target of abuse and in some cases violence.
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    Depends on whether you're looking for it or not. Like attracts like.
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    like attracts like

    yeh thats a good point.

    Just seems an odd way for it to develop.Like what determined that campness is attractive for homosexuals
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    Like attracts like
    yeh thats a good point.

    Just seems an odd way for it to develop.Like what determined that campness is attractive for homosexuals
    Quote Originally Posted by I
    What I meant was, that homosexuality is sometimes more than just sexual orientation. There is a homosexual subculture that might help a person out of the closet as it were. People belonging to this subculture might seem freer to express themselves, a potential way to lift some of the burdens off of one’s shoulders imposed by modern society. And then this person would “act gay” in all situations as a way to proclaim themselves as part of this subculture. and because they seem to revel in their newfound and sometimes almost overwhelming (to them) sense of security, confidence and identity. As a result they sometimes love to overdo the whole act a bit in order to incur some shock and unease in others, even further reinforcing this sense of power.
    Did that make sense?
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    Yeh it seems to make sense, I have met people who overdo the gay act. Especially when there is a group of gay people, it almost becomes a competition to be the most homosexual.

    But i wonder what made gays develop the triats they currently show. Why wasn't talking like a pirate more attractive?
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    On this I think Jeremy or Paralith would give the most accurate answers. IMO, depending on the circumstances, a child would choose a parent (or maybe even an aunt or uncle) that they try and identify with more than the other as they grow up. They would then assimilate their mannerisms (possibly also from other people they might associate with the parent) in this process. It is easy to see this in action if you only look at your own children or families that you have contact with.
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    yeh fair point, but i was curious on the very root of the trait. Who was the first man to determine the stereotypical homosexual traits
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    Well I’d say it is something that just happens sometimes in certain households, as a matter of course. If the conditions are right, the combination of (maybe) the innate tendency of children to learn from their parents and the specific traits/parent that the child identifies with, would result in a homosexual, either lesbian or a gay man. As far as the “excessive gayness” goes, naturally an incumbent leader of sorts would be more confident, expressive and so on (the alpha gay man :? ) and then the people that would be influenced by such a person would then also act in much the same way. Again, exactly the same thing can be seen to happen in other groups or societies that people find themselves identifying with. IMO, of course.

    The more in-depth psychology if all this can be better explained by our own resident psychologist.
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    I'm not sure why you're so confused. Stereotypical (male) homosexual traits are exaggerations of stereotypical female traits. While a homosexual man is attracted to other men, the roots of what men find sexually attractive in general are still centered around females - in the gender that you reproduce with and are usually sexually attracted to. There's no undoing that. Ever since there were sexual organisms, sexual attraction is based on characteristics of the opposite gender.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    yeh fair point, but i was curious on the very root of the trait. Who was the first man to determine the stereotypical homosexual traits
    No one person determines a stereotype. Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. The majority acts the way the stereotype describes. Rarely, an extremely vocal minority. What follows does contain some "psychobabble", but should be instrumental in your education. You need to learn what the terms mean.

    The "root" of homosexual traits is very simple. Abuse or social isolation. To expound, anyone familiar with the results of various types of abuse will know three main problems result: Low self esteem, anxiety/paranoia, and depression of varying levels (which, arguably, may or may not lead to DID or Manic Depression, depending on severity). One of those, or sometimes all of them and more, are combined with either hate, fear, loving, etc, of their abuser. The gender of the abuser largely determines how they react to others of the same gender.

    So then you have a variety of emotions, problems, and confusion. In this mix is also your sexual development. Which of your friends treats you best, or which gender treats you best, can slowly but surely decide which one you'll be attracted to. Alternatively (as what happens most of the time), you seek out the gender that abused you in some attempt to "make up" for your childhood. These are just a few of the thousands of other outcomes that can be analyzed or thought of when you fully grasp what happens in abuse situations.

    With social isolation, a previous poster perfectly described the result. When they find a subculture they "belong" to after many years of being rejected, they'll adopt everything from it. Even a lisp, girlish movements, phrases, etc. Combined with abuse, this problem is exacerbated to new heights. Not only do you need to belong, but you need to feel safe/comfortable/etc. This leads to increasingly "gay" behavior to bridge any gap that might exist.

    Both of the above answers describe the majority of homosexuals. Males more than females. With women it's interesting, since in a fair amount of lesbian cases I've seen I've only been able to determine one cause: They're misandrists. Combined with the reasons above, some lesbians actually have an odd or unfounded misandry view about men. Also along these lines, you might throw in the fact that women are generally more pretty than any man. Even to other women.

    And I thank paralith for covering the last part. Least I ramble more.
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    Didn't see any psychobabble in that all made sense. Thanks Jeremy that was very clear.

    Yeh i think you make some vaild arguments there Abuse or social isolation seem to make up the majority of homosexuals i know. A lot of people who "come out" are often unpopular or uncommunicative.

    How ever i have met homosexuals who are neither abused or socially isolated. In many cases i believe it can be attention seeking behaviour, but then you have to look at the root of the attention seeking.
    Is attention seeking a result of neglect,abuse or social isolation? im not sure.
    Or they can be pretending to be homosexual as it can make them more attractive to the opposite sex. Some girls i know do find homosexual guys more attractive once they know they are gay.

    I guess in these cases they are not genuine homosexuals but just copying the traits. It is interesting why someone would pretend to be homosexual though and im sure theres more behind it than my first thoughts. Jeremy can probably elaborate for me if he doesnt mind =)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    Some girls i know do find homosexual guys more attractive once they know they are gay.
    I find this hard to believe. They are probably more willing to talk about how good looking etc the guy is once they know their praises won't be misconstrued as sexual advances. But knowing they are homosexual shouldn't all by itself make them more attracted to the person, unless it's one of those things where they always want things that they can't have. But that's an individual personality trait, not a rule.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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    They are probably more willing to talk about how good looking etc the guy is once they know their praises won't be misconstrued as sexual advances
    Yeh that is a good idea. I think some of it is the "forbidden fruit" idea when they want what they can't have. Probably just the girls i know that have this mentallity.
    Jeremy made an interesting point that any girl is going to be prettier than any guy.

    "that women are generally more pretty than any man. Even to other women."

    If you add that in gay men are often "pretty guys?" So it could make them more attractive to women
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    Didn't see any psychobabble in that all made sense. Thanks Jeremy that was very clear.
    what the FUCK? What's your definition of "psychobabble" if it isn't the technical terms? You need to review your definitions.

    How ever i have met homosexuals who are neither abused or socially isolated. In many cases i believe it can be attention seeking behaviour, but then you have to look at the root of the attention seeking.
    Is attention seeking a result of neglect,abuse or social isolation? im not sure.
    Or they can be pretending to be homosexual as it can make them more attractive to the opposite sex. Some girls i know do find homosexual guys more attractive once they know they are gay.
    What you described above is a very small minority. But it happens. And, in my experience, the majority of women find gay men attractive. Much like straight men and lesbians.
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    Well "psychobabble" is often what people call the terms they don't understand. I understood all the terms so to me it wasn't psychobabble.
    Sorry for the confusion
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    If you add that in gay men are often "pretty guys?" So it could make them more attractive to women
    Appreciating something as pretty isn't always the same as being sexually attracted to it.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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    Right. Except I always understand the terms I use, or I wouldn't be using them. So your claim that I've previously used psychobabble are both unfounded and hilarious. Since it really means what I initially said, YOU are the one that didn't understand them!
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    I called the earlier terms psychobabble because i didn't understand them but i have done a bit of research like you reccomended and understand the terms now.
    I am aware you understand the terms you use.


    Anyway
    Would you agree that being pretty plays a role in sexual attraction?
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    "pretty" is defined entirely by what you were raised with. So yes it does.
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    So back to my research paper, ive managed to get some great ideas off you guys so thanks alot its very much appreciated.

    The reason i submitted other possible theories was to spark some debate to get more ideas and incoroporate them into my paper.

    Im still unsure what to write about the philosophical aspect on this debate.
    Or the ethical issues

    Is any one experienced in this that could give me some ideas
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacketate
    So back to my research paper, ive managed to get some great ideas off you guys so thanks alot its very much appreciated.

    The reason i submitted other possible theories was to spark some debate to get more ideas and incoroporate them into my paper.

    Im still unsure what to write about the philosophical aspect on this debate.
    Or the ethical issues

    Is any one experienced in this that could give me some ideas
    The ethical issue is that biological gender and cultural sexual identity should in general be considered as two different things, especially when it comes to policy making. One should not effect what is expected in the other in modern human society.
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    In addition, the growing visibility of same-sex characters and relationships in Hollywood films and on TV has also exposed Japanese viewers to these ideas. "Will & Grace", a popular sitcom in which one of the two main characters is a gay man.

    I think this is quite an interesting quote from an article, the rise in homosexuality in Japan has been linked to the increased visibility of homosexuals on TV.
    And the person doesn't have to have been abused or socially excluded.
    Seems a bit odd that someone can develop sexual orientation from the TV
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    Can anyone recommend any non internet sources on this subject, i need to collect literature to review for my research project.
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    I already posted links to journal article search engines. Go to those and you'll find lots of info I'm sure.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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    both:

    ask any homosexual, bisexual or pan sexual.

    some will have known since they could talk others will have known since puberty and some even realize/find out/decide/whatever when they are in old age
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    damn there's no 'both' option


    it's both, there is a 'Gay Gene' that can be linked to homosexuality, (I belive disproportionately large calves are a physical manifestation of this gene, not sure though)

    and likewise people can 'choose' to be homosexual, of course in my opinion anyone without the gene is simply deluding themselves, you can't go against nature, simple as that.
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    Both. Orientation is both the result of nature and nurture in humans, but has a lot more to do with nature imo. Actual behavior however has a lot to do with social environment.

    If Penguins can have homosexual behavior, I think theres a good chance there is a biological condition genetic, hormonal or developmental that interferes with typical orientation.

    Some primal behaviors and reactions have a genetic component, a new born baby does not learn to seek a mothers breast or cry in the womb. A rabbit doesnt go to rabbit school to learn he needs to mount a rabbit and that this rabbit ought to be female, they just instinctively have sex. Insects have sex with an entire population never have lived when adults were around, your not telling me that sex is learned behavior nor the selection of female/male in these instances.

    We started out as animals, so odds are theres a genetic component to it. But there a difference between inclination and action. In humans, behavior is much much more complex(less black and white) and more subject to cultural environment, thinking, imagination etc.

    Ironically, if there is a genetic component that affects the odds of orientation, chances are there might be more people with homosexual inclination in cultures that forbid it even though all the population can claim to be hetero (more likely to marry and have children while pretending). Its even funnier when you start hearing someone say its a sin, as if there was a temptation(given when your not gay theres not much temptation there), and also funny that in some regions you often find that those who denouce and condemn homosexuality the most (typical repubilcan politician/evangelical minister) often end up being discovered to be gay.

    Even if theres cultural factors you dont choose your preference, you dont wake up one day and say hey I used to prefer strawbery ice cream but today I decide Im going to prefer chocolate, your preference for ice cream flavor can change but not because you decide.
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    "Nature" seems a paradox, since at first glance genes that cause us not to breed should die out.

    I postulate the genetic fitness of sporadic homosexuality in social animals.

    Consider extremely social animals like ants or bees. Most individuals do not breed, yet their genes do pass on. The trick here is that non-breeding is ubiquitous gene dormant in a few individuals.

    In humans, I think the ideal rate of homosexuality (practically that means not having children) depends on family size and structure. We want the odd sibling unencumbered by offspring, to play support role for breeders and elderly family members, and to shoulder other "odd jobs". Division of labour. If the arrangement benefits the family as a whole, it ensures the sporadic homosexuality gene's continuation.

    I hope this idea refutes the sense that homosexuals are apart from the breeding population. I feel rather they're a valuable componant of it, and society could openly expect they fill the role they're born to.
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