Notices
Results 1 to 17 of 17
Like Tree1Likes
  • 1 Post By skeptic

Thread: Suicide - Paradox?

  1. #1 Suicide - Paradox? 
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    130
    How can sb. want to die, while nobody knows how death is?
    How can I want something that I don't know of?
    This is unintelligible for me.
    And, is it really that one wants to die, or how can I say that?
    I mean, one could say that the inclination to death comes from weak will and a lack of desire to live.

    So if I say, "I want to die", what do I actually mean by that?


    I am.
    You can't deny it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    792
    I think really its not wanting to exist any longer, whatever you believe regarding an afterlife, it is true the person is most certainly not here anyway.

    I don't really see this as a paradox however.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Red
    Red is offline
    Forum Freshman Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    63
    Under your definition nearly ecery desire is a paradox as we almost always desire something we have yet had, that is why we desire to try it, so if we follow your rules to desire to be rich is paradoxical as you do not know what being rich is
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    130
    @Red:
    Yes, I see rich people all the time and I can at least imagine how it would be for me to be rich. But not being dead.
    I am.
    You can't deny it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    I have dealt with some people with suicidal tendencies, and mostly they simply want their emotional torment to stop. They generally don’t see any change in their current state to be imminent, so they seek to “end it all”. They equate death with the absence of emotional pain.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Red
    Red is offline
    Forum Freshman Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    63
    :mastermind: You can see dead people or dieing people all the time too but that doesnt mean you can more accuratley imagine their experience than that of the rich people you see. I can imagine what it is to die, I can imagine what it is to be rich but both are open to being false.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,120
    I've wanted to die a few times.

    Twice when I was in so much physical pain I didn't want to endure it any longer and so wanting to die was wanting to be free of the pain. Though I think what I really wanted was to be unconscious.

    I'd lost a lot of blood on both occassions though so perhaps that affected my thinking.

    Meanwhile knowing I felt like that horrifies me.

    Another time was due to a hormone imbalance due to a bad reaction to a contraceptive implant. Fortunately I recognised this was not right and figured out what was causing the problem and had the implant immediately removed.
    'Time is the space between birth and death' by me.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    Another time was due to a hormone imbalance due to a bad reaction to a contraceptive implant. Fortunately I recognised this was not right and figured out what was causing the problem and had the implant immediately removed.
    So your scientific mind saved your life. Cool.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,120
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Another time was due to a hormone imbalance due to a bad reaction to a contraceptive implant. Fortunately I recognised this was not right and figured out what was causing the problem and had the implant immediately removed.
    So your scientific mind saved your life. Cool.
    Hmmm perhaps.

    God helped me find the relevant info on the Internet of course.

    oops typo

    Meant to say

    Google helped me find.....
    'Time is the space between birth and death' by me.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Professor Pendragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Nederland
    Posts
    1,085
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    I've wanted to die a few times.

    Twice when I was in so much physical pain I didn't want to endure it any longer and so wanting to die was wanting to be free of the pain. Though I think what I really wanted was to be unconscious.

    I'd lost a lot of blood on both occassions though so perhaps that affected my thinking.

    Meanwhile knowing I felt like that horrifies me.
    I can't really imagine that feeling, but I can imagine that it's a horrifying idea to have experienced it.. So I hope you wont experience it again.

    I think the main problem of suicide is that humans are unable to anticipate or experience a situation totally different from their own. There's only a small range of situations which people can experience as realistic for themselves. If you weigh 150 kilo you can imagine yourself weighing 180 kilo or 120, but to accept that it's realistic to someday have a normal weight again seems impossible for such a person. In the same way it seems to me that a severely depressed person is just unable to accept that his/her situation can someday be completely different, whether by medicines or a change of lifestyle. So they anticipate unending misery and base their decisions on that (which can end in suicide), while a much better situation is nearly always possible. Sometimes we lack imagination.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6
    I think it's not so much desire for escape as alleviation from the present. In other words, instead of looking for somewhere/something else, your looking for anything other than the present.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12 Re: Suicide - Paradox? 
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    5,450
    Quote Originally Posted by mastermind
    How can sb. want to die, while nobody knows how death is?
    How can I want something that I don't know of?
    This is unintelligible for me.
    And, is it really that one wants to die, or how can I say that?
    I mean, one could say that the inclination to death comes from weak will and a lack of desire to live.

    So if I say, "I want to die", what do I actually mean by that?
    This may be more attuned to an individual of faith. If, as part of an indoctrination there is a vivid description of what awaits a soul in the hereafter, such as eternal life and bliss, then it becomes something worthwhile. Who wouldn't substitute a life of pain and suffering to one of unending happiness if they truly believed that it was a viable alternative..
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13 a paradox? 
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    13
    Actually, there is reason to suppose that the paradox is that we don't commit suicide. For instance, depressed people can tell when a game is rigged; non-depressed people have more difficulty. So it's possible a certain amount of delusion is required for -- or at the very least, is intimately tied to -- not being depressed.

    This doesn't get to the issue of suicide, but I think it's worth thinking about. Incidentally, Josh Greene (http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~jgreene/) has a new project trying to work out just how much of life is "worth living." The answer appears to be not much, but I don't think anything is published yet.

    ------
    Try my web-based experiments at http://coglanglab.org
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14 Re: a paradox? 
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    Quote Originally Posted by coglanglab
    So it's possible a certain amount of delusion is required for -- or at the very least, is intimately tied to -- not being depressed.
    Which reminded me at once of the observation - a paranoid is someone who knows what is really going on.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Bachelors Degree
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    U.S.A
    Posts
    414
    Well I can damn well bet with my knowledge it will not be like this world I live in, physics, stars, planets, life. Hell with my knowledge when I die I will cease to exist.
    With bravery and recognition that we are harbingers of our destiny and with a paragon of virtue.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    England, Glostershire.
    Posts
    11
    To say you "want to die" it not that you want to kill yourself you just want something new, a new life to feel what people are holding from you in this life.
    I have wanted to die many time and right now i also want to because someone has just hurt me incredably, but im still forcing myself to survive because i still have one thing to hold onto and i will cling on to that untill i can find more reasons to survive.
    and a aspect of human curiosity comes into this, you want to feel what it is like to die but not sure if you want to die, it is natural not unintelligent of you.
    someone who can actually kill themselves are very strong, because when your actually about to do it you see the one thing worth living for and it pulls you back to reality and you live on
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    There has been a lot of research into suicide, and what Kalster said is totally correct. It is not a desire to die, but a desire to end the physical or emotional pain the person is enduring.

    Most suicide attempts fail. Most suicide attempts are impulsive, due to the tremendous need to end the pain. The difference between actually killing oneself, or failing to kill oneself depends on the method used. If a method is readily available, then that determines the outcome. For example : overdosing on sleeping pills has a 2% 'success' rate, while using a hand gun has a 90% 'success' rate. If pills are all that is available, the person will probably live, but if a loaded handgun is in the house, we will have a tragedy.
    icewendigo likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •