Thread: Won't get fooled again?

I'm always interested in what our new age culture has thrown up.
So there was a time when I believed that aliens must exist only to be talked out of it, by James Lovelock and others.
Then I read The Mirage Men and it became quite clear that it suits the military for us to believe in this stuff.

Same applies to god I suppose. At school I could not even question his existence.
If I can find no evidence for god it doesn't mean he doesn't exist, yet it's frustrating that I just can't prove it.

Browsing in a 2nd hand bookshop I found 'The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari." about a disillusioned lawyer who shaved his head and went to India and Tibet.
After a few pages there was a feeling of being there before.
Shambhala (Shangri-la) had become Sivana where both are populated by sages who had found wisdom and the secret of eternal youth.
Can this place be pinpointed? Of course not. It would become like a commercialised spa town.

Looking for any similar experiences please.

Originally Posted by ox

Looking for any similar experiences please.

Was born and raised catholic and was forced to attend church every sunday, and the other stuff. Couldn't get out of it. When I turned 13, was allowed to go by myself, and immediately went to a friend's house where we played games, instead of eating the body of christ.

He had some great books on astronomy, with pictures of many galaxies. These books said our galaxy has billions of stars, and the other galaxies did too. And that there were billions of galaxies.

When I started to look at the pictures, the thought of someone creating and controlling all this came to mind from the sermons, and I immediately discarded such notions as impossible.

It was a true revelation to me that the Universe was so large and filled with all those galaxies, and that no god could have devised it all. Just not possible. The Universe seemed bigger than anything but itself.

Just a short story on one conversion to atheism. Perhaps not what you were looking for, but it was a profound experience for me.

Originally Posted by Double Helix

Was born and raised catholic and was forced to attend church every sunday, and the other stuff. Couldn't get out of it. When I turned 13, was allowed to go by myself, and immediately went to a friend's house where we played games, instead of eating the body of christ.

Proof that our behaviour and psychology might be controlled from a very early age.
It changes according to the times. At school I was told that we all needed to fear god. Nothing like today where to get bums on seats we are told all about god's love for us.
If the bread and wine was actually turned into body and blood then all Catholics are cannibals.

He had some great books on astronomy, with pictures of many galaxies. These books said our galaxy has billions of stars, and the other galaxies did too. And that there were billions of galaxies.

God must have had his work cut out as 2 trillion galaxies is the latest estimate. To create something so complex, god must be even more complex.
Is the whole universe quantum entangled? Probably.
'God is quantum entanglement! shouts the preacher. 'It proves that god is everywhere!'
But hold on. We now suspect that our own galaxy is made of many smaller ones, and we are on a collision course with a bigger galaxy also made of smaller ones.
Why would god not just merge them from the beginning?

Originally Posted by ox

At school I was told that we all needed to fear god.

This is still the mantra from the bible thumpers - fear of god. It is clearly contradictory - the children of a loving god should have no fear if faithful, only if they don't believe in him. But it is only one of many contradictions in all those christian beliefs.

Originally Posted by ox

We now suspect that our own galaxy is made of many smaller ones, and we are on a collision course with a bigger galaxy also made of smaller ones.
Why would god not just merge them from the beginning?

Once again we must quote from the ultimate dodge : "The lord works in mysterious ways."

Happily, science is determining that those ways are not so mysterious, but difficult to determine. Only evolution could produce a brain which both invents gods, and then provides the intelligence to deny them.

Originally Posted by Double Helix

The lord works in mysterious ways."

But there are things that only god knows!

Why do humans love mythology when they know it's never true.
We all need our heroes.

There are also myths about myths.
Like did the Axial ages ever exist?
Do we need to adjust history to suit the present?

What will the post new age look like?
I feel sure, sadly it will still be based on mythology.







Did

Originally Posted by ox

What will the post new age look like?

It will depend entirely on the survival of any creatures that have visual organs required to look at it.

There is no guarantee, based on the ongoing mass extinction, that will with occur.

It may be that any post new age will require millions of years of evolution for the reappearance of such advanced organisms, making it a post-post-post etc. new age.

Only time will tell..........

Will the cyborgs be fooled like we've been?

https://futurism.com/six-of-todays-m...l-life-cyborgs

Originally Posted by ox

Will the cyborgs be fooled like we've been?

https://futurism.com/six-of-todays-m...l-life-cyborgs

It certainly seems that cyborgs of some form are in our future. And it could be an amazing one. While the advantages for prosthetics is highly desirable, augmentation of human capacities has enormous potential.

But there is also extreme risk of dependence on a technology that may become difficult to functionally maintain, for whatever reason. And complex tech like this is very costly.

Or an even bigger risk in the potential loss of humans as a " singularity" of ourselves. We would begin to take part in a collective of two, and there are more levels to move to if you become two.

Worst of all is the escape of a master machine which rules us all from a network we are all plugged into.

You have opened yet another can of worms on this one :


"Artificial intelligence: ‘We’re like children playing with a bomb’"

* https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...igence-machine

Originally Posted by Double Helix

"Artificial intelligence: ‘We’re like children playing with a bomb’"

* https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...igence-machine

Seems quite an article. We need to defeat climate change and the rise of the machines.
Machines will be resistant to climate change.

Originally Posted by ox

We need to defeat climate change and the rise of the machines.
Machines will be resistant to climate change.

Despite their use by humans, it is the machines which are driving climate change.

Seems rather suspicious. Could it be the machines are already at war with humans, and this is their way of dominating a world they can exist in, without all the requirements of biological systems.

Looks grim.

Originally Posted by Double Helix

Could it be the machines are already at war with humans, and this is their way of dominating a world they can exist in, without all the requirements of biological systems.

This idea goes back to 1863.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_among_the_Machines

You only have to look at humans with mobile phones to see which is in control.
I refuse to have one.

Originally Posted by ox

You only have to look at humans with mobile phones to see which is in control.

There is much to be said about this. Everywhere you go, there are people locked into their phones and manipulating who-knows-what, or being manipulated.

It is not only the machines, but the people who control them at this point. The major social media companies are controlling the programs right now. What will be next? Or will these companies themselves be acquired by the machines. The rise of the machines seems largely to be tied to telecom and computers, and governments. Makes a lot of sense. We may need to revolt against the machines.

Don't have a mobile phone either.

A phone user is walking towards me and I'm undecided about holding my line or moving to the side, but which side?
Is this a game? Could it be a Turing Test and I am involved? Has the machine captured us both?

What if microchips become quantum computers?
I could be engaging not only with the phone user but all his doppelgangers in parallel worlds.

Machines have already enslaved us to do their fetching.

But humans can turn them off.
What happens if one day we can't and they become replicators?

It seems like it is only a matter of time before we all become bio-machines. Some already are with various implants, and others driven by their accessories, like phones, watches, even smart glasses (1). Some of these people are starting to look like the Borg. Is there any way to devise a kill switch that they cannot defeat?

One wonders if humans will be able to reverse this process once it gets too far along. The concept of self-replicating machines has been around for some time, but nothing has developed yet (2). But it is a near certain evolution of technology that an accidental (or intentional) spin-off will ultimately lead to such devices. Without a fail-safe kill switch, we could all be assimilated. Resistance may be futile without it.


"Smartglasses"

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartglasses


"Self-replicating machine"

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_machine

Which is the most powerful, the human brain, a super computer, a quantum computer?
It's still the human brain.
But what happens if you have a network of quantum computers?

There is no doubt that human bodies are very inefficient. We can expect to live for only a few decades. Oldest person officially lived to 122 in France.
The human body is high entropy and it gets higher with age.
We rely on levers in the form of bones and joints to move around.
Our brains become senescent and they cannot be replenished.
Parts of us start to age soon after puberty.
We can expect only a few years of real creativity.

As their servants it appears we are just stepping stones for machines.
Have you read Novacene by James Lovelock?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Novacene-Co.../dp/0141990791

Originally Posted by ox

We can expect only a few years of real creativity.

As their servants it appears we are just stepping stones for machines.

Did not read Lovelock's book, but recall he just went maximum entropic last month. He seems to have had the genes for longevity. He was a very clever guy who gave a lot of thought about the future of technology.

Don't read a lot of futuristic stuff. So much of it is wild speculation. But his notions that super-intellectual machines could ultimately rule the planet is far from impossible. As you noted, humans are the most intelligent, but are prime victims of entropy. What I don't see in the machines is creativity fostering initiative. These would seem to be required for continuously advancing technology and its benefits. Not sure these characteristics can be carried over to a Cyborg. The nature of purely biological humans and of machines seem incompatible.

Will machines actually realize the need for any of this, or will they reach a point of static existence? It is all very speculative. It is noted in some criticisms of his works as being "overconfident"*. Still, he had a remarkable gift for thinking about how current tech might evolve in the future. Probably should wedge this into all the other stuff on my reading list.



"Cyborgs will replace humans and remake the world, James Lovelock says"


* https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science...ys-ncna1041616

Lovelock died 3 weeks ago on his 103rd birthday after a fall.
A comment he made that stays in my head relates to trees.
His father said to him one day that trees are there for a purpose.
This may have started his ideas about the Gaia hypothesis.
Our forests cool the planet.
But humans have cut down so many trees without thinking of the cost.
Climate change was one of his favourite topics.
I live in an area that was once a large forest stretching for about 50 miles (Forest of Arden).
Only woods now remain but there has belatedly been some replanting.
Hard to imagine now that travellers used to pray at a cross for safe passage through the forest.
I still see trees being felled. The building of a high speed railway line has downed ancient woodland where until recently people could walk.
No consideration for the health and well being of the local population just to save a few minutes of time between London and Birmingham.

I don't know what it is you're looking for. An answer to the unasked question, maybe?
I know that science is fluid and quantum physics has thrown up variations to otherwise steadfast answers. We don't fully understand the maths involved and there is an excellent chance of new maths evolving.
Concerning psychology and the influence of others on our psychological make-up, my understanding is this starts before our birth and continues to our death. It is the very nature of society that this influence occurs and is encouraged so that societal beliefs remain relatively static.
Religious foundations built society from prehistoric times to the present, including our belief in hierarchal heaven that is structured with the ultimate God figure at the top and a multitude of steps to the lower levels until we come to the human level usually at the very bottom. Belief in this heavenly structure ensures that the individual proceeds through life always looking to be more perfect, more divine. Of course, it also means that some take what is said as literal truth and proceed to accuse and condemn anyone who wonders from what is seen as the true path.

Originally Posted by Sageimnot

I don't know what it is you're looking for. An answer to the unasked question, maybe?

Looking for how much of our minds are made up of misinformation. I believe it is close to 100%.

I know that science is fluid and quantum physics has thrown up variations to otherwise steadfast answers.

Explain.

We don't fully understand the maths involved and there is an excellent chance of new maths evolving.

You mean yet to be discovered.

Concerning psychology and the influence of others on our psychological make-up, my understanding is this starts before our birth and continues to our death. It is the very nature of society that this influence occurs and is encouraged so that societal beliefs remain relatively static.

My understanding only started when I realised I was a human animal.

Religious foundations built society from prehistoric times to the present, including our belief in hierarchal heaven that is structured with the ultimate God figure at the top and a multitude of steps to the lower levels until we come to the human level usually at the very bottom. Belief in this heavenly structure ensures that the individual proceeds through life always looking to be more perfect, more divine. Of course, it also means that some take what is said as literal truth and proceed to accuse and condemn anyone who wonders from what is seen as the true path.

Assuming you mean the Christian Bible then what is it other than a book of second hand mythology?
Christians do nor rely on evidence. They rely on faith which means an absence of evidence.

There is a church of 1 billion people who rely on an event they call the Last Supper (RC Church).
Like every supposed event in the Bible it cannot possibly have happened, or any event following it.
A man does not rise from the dead or walk on water or float up to heaven. The laws of physics have not changed.
Saints do not rise from the graves to walk around the town.
It is not metaphor, it's misinformation.

Schools and churches have made fools of us all.