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Thread: Forgiving

  1. #1 Forgiving 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Is it more important to forgive? Is there an advantage to forgiving?

    In recent history most of the world has forgiven Germany for the world wars and the holocaust. Japan has pretty much forgiven the States for dropping the bomb. In fact a lot of past transgressions foisted upon one nation by another have been forgiven. Its like there is a magic moment when former beligerents decide to bury the hatchet.

    Eventually over time things change and what was then seems far removed from the present. Of course there is instant forgiveness between people but even then there is doubt about how genuine a gesture of forgiveness is. It appears as if time and memory are the most important elements for total forgiveness. There may be a third, when two former adversaries discover that mutual cooperation results in good fortune, thus solidifying forgiveness.

    Like anything else there are exceptions. Somethings are never forgiven. Don't take this the wrong way but do you think Afro-Americans will ever forgive White America for slavery. This one seems doomed to last awhile. White America can say they're sorry until they're blue in the face but what will it take for their forgiveness to be accepted? Time comes to mind but what could bring it about quicker? Are some things doomed to never be forgiven?


    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  3. #2  
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    MOst of your first paragraph can be traced to money and trade, most of the people who started these things are long gone, why for example, should a modern government apologise for something that happened centuries ago?

    The holocaust (genicide against jewish people) and the use of the yellow star as a mark was first used in England oddly enough, by one of the medevil kings who saw the Jews hoarding cash, he rounded them all up, put them in a boat, sailed to a remote sand bank at low tide, off loaded them and sailed away.

    I think forgiving or otherwise is a personal thing, personally I'll forgive anybody once....


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  4. #3  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    MOst of your first paragraph can be traced to money and trade, most of the people who started these things are long gone, why for example, should a modern government apologise for something that happened centuries ago?
    Agreed, but some things are definitely easier to forgive than others. Murder, abuse, criminal activity pale when compared to forgiving a loved one for a sexual dalliance for instance. There must also be some type of criteria for forgiveness. How do we decide what's forgiveable?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    It's something you arrive at yourself, for example suppose you stole an apple as a ten year old child, then when an adult a ten year old child steals an apple from you, that might help you decide. OK a minor point I know but then there are other considerations, what are the long term implications if I do not forgive?

    THink about what forgive actually means, in practice it would seem, it may mean "carry on as normal as though nothing had happened" not forgiving can mean a range of things from "I want vengence" to "I'll ignore that person" - which is most beneficial? it's clearly a case by case thing, there can be no hard and fast line in the sand, a religious person may be bound to forgive or otherwise, for others the choice requires some thought.

    What's happened has happened, move on, find you own rules, you'll be forgiven wherever you draw your own line.
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  6. #5  
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    Things would be so much easier in life if we all just forgave each other, but unfortunately there are some things that i would consider unforgivable. I dont often forgive myself, i have to admit sadly.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellybird
    Things would be so much easier in life if we all just forgave each other, but unfortunately there are some things that i would consider unforgivable. I dont often forgive myself, i have to admit sadly.
    Hi,

    I don't think we should always forgive. I threw my alcoholic father out of the house when I was 17 and I never forgave him for being a crappy father. I never spoke to or saw him again.
    Everyone kept saying I should of forgiven him, because he's my father, but none of them really understood what it means to have someone destructive in your life. Forgiving them only gives them an opportunity to hurt you again.

    The harsh reality is that there are people out there that will treat you badly and continue to hurt you as long as you let them. These sort of people you can't forgive. These people you need to remove from your life as quickly as possible. By that I mean ignore them as if they didn't exist anymore.

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  8. #7  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Robert, I am sorry for your pain.
    Quote Originally Posted by p1drobert
    The harsh reality is that there are people out there that will treat you badly and continue to hurt you as long as you let them. These sort of people you can't forgive.
    Perhaps you cannot forgive, but there is merit and honour in trying to understand.
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  9. #8 Re: Forgiving 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Is it more important to forgive? Is there an advantage to forgiving?

    In recent history most of the world has forgiven Germany for the world wars and the holocaust. Japan has pretty much forgiven the States for dropping the bomb. In fact a lot of past transgressions foisted upon one nation by another have been forgiven. Its like there is a magic moment when former beligerents decide to bury the hatchet.

    Eventually over time things change and what was then seems far removed from the present. Of course there is instant forgiveness between people but even then there is doubt about how genuine a gesture of forgiveness is. It appears as if time and memory are the most important elements for total forgiveness. There may be a third, when two former adversaries discover that mutual cooperation results in good fortune, thus solidifying forgiveness.

    Like anything else there are exceptions. Somethings are never forgiven. Don't take this the wrong way but do you think Afro-Americans will ever forgive White America for slavery. This one seems doomed to last awhile. White America can say they're sorry until they're blue in the face but what will it take for their forgiveness to be accepted? Time comes to mind but what could bring it about quicker? Are some things doomed to never be forgiven?
    Nope, it is just a lot easier for criminal blacks to "blame slavery" on their criminal antics. Question: Colin Powel - Does he ever "bang on" about slavery ? No !! - Why ? - Because he is a decent hard working American !

    In order to commit any crime, one needs to justify it to oneself. and that is what these people do, by blaming slavery.

    However, it is my humble belief that it was not just slavery, but also the abolition of slavery which contributed to the "black crime wave" Okay......this is how I see it.....

    A bunch of black people are stolen from Africa and sold in America (and elsewhere in the world as slaves)

    Lets say im a white american farmer who has just bought 3 slaves to work on my land......I feed them, clothe them and shelter them, and in return they work on my land ploughing the fields........

    ....Of course they are not happy being forced into a life of slavery BUT they have everything they need to live: A home, food and clothes.

    Then comes the abolition of slavery.... It is suddenly illegal for me to keep them as slavesm so I have to set them free..... Do I still carry on feeding them, clothing them or let them live in my home ? - No I dont.....

    So suddenly they ARE free, wondering around America without a home, food or decent clothes.....They cant find work because even though slavery has been abolished. They, to "us" are still "niggers" - They are the lowest class of citizen in our point of view because that is the way that WE ourselves have been bought up to think of them. So, they have no food, no home, no decent clothes and not much of a chance of employment........What happens then ?........

    ......They turn to crime !! - They do the basic thing needed to survive, they steal.

    Now its stuck into a catch 22....We hear that they have turned to crime so we become even MORE apprehensive about befriending / employing them.

    Its a catch 22, and it goes on and on and on.

    I will be honest and say, I myself was bought up with a family that was extremely racist. Since moving to south london I have become even moreso myself as my family has been the victim of "black crime". I havle also found that todays black youth have little to no manners, neither do the white chavvy youth !! - but it is much easier for me to label an ignorant black person as a "nigger" as I myself am white, and native. But I am just as racist against eastern europeans / polish etc coming over here.......Unless of course they happen to be female and REALLY REALLY fit !!

    But I can see the bigger picture, that doesnt make it right.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    MOst of your first paragraph can be traced to money and trade, most of the people who started these things are long gone, why for example, should a modern government apologise for something that happened centuries ago?
    Agreed, but some things are definitely easier to forgive than others. Murder, abuse, criminal activity pale when compared to forgiving a loved one for a sexual dalliance for instance. There must also be some type of criteria for forgiveness. How do we decide what's forgiveable?
    It is my belief that bitterness cuts us up as a person. It is better in certain circumstances to understand rather than forgive. We live in a world of causality.

    And in reply to Roberts post. I would suggest that you look as hard and deeply as you can and try to understand WHY your father was the way that he was. He too must have gone through some kind of trauma in order to treat you and your family the way that he did. Im not saying that he has excuses which make it right, it sounds to me like he was a person of below average emotional intelligence and therefore could not recognise his problems. If you can take the time to find out all of the facts, including your father's past (im not saying you have to forgive or talk to him again) - but if you can put the effort into finding out what HE went through and what it was that turned him into the person he became, then you, yourself will have a much better understanding of what he was doing and that will help yourself and your own healing process.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  11. #10 Re: Forgiving 
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    [quote="leohopkins"]
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Question: Colin Powel - Does he ever "bang on" about slavery ? No !! - Why ? - Because he is a decent hard working American !
    I'm reasonably confident it is because he is Scottish. 8)
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  12. #11 not the point 
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    And in reply to Roberts post. I would suggest that you look as hard and deeply as you can and try to understand WHY your father was the way that he was. He too must have gone through some kind of trauma in order to treat you and your family the way that he did. Im not saying that he has excuses which make it right, it sounds to me like he was a person of below average emotional intelligence and therefore could not recognise his problems. If you can take the time to find out all of the facts, including your father's past (im not saying you have to forgive or talk to him again) - but if you can put the effort into finding out what HE went through and what it was that turned him into the person he became, then you, yourself will have a much better understanding of what he was doing and that will help yourself and your own healing process
    .

    You're missing the point. I understood perfectly why he was as he was. Yes he wasn't emotionally intelligent, and did have a hard life, etc but its all irrelevant.
    The only thing that mattered was that there was this person in my life that was doing me damage and needed to be removed. My father died about 9 years ago and I didn't attend his funeral, despite being asked to by him.
    If you forgive soemone you open yourself up to them again and become vulnerable. By not forgiving them you isolate yourself from them. They become irrelevant to you, to your life.

    Thank you to Ophiolite for your sympathy. However the whole point of not forgiving him was to erase any pain, or past injury. When you cast someone out it goes some way to erasing their effect on you.

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  13. #12 Re: Forgiving 
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    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins
    I will be honest and say, I myself was brought up with a family that was extremely racist. Since moving to south london I have become even moreso myself as my family has been the victim of "black crime". I havle also found that todays black youth have little to no manners, neither do the white chavvy youth !! - but it is much easier for me to label an ignorant black person as a "nigger" as I myself am white, and native. But I am just as racist against eastern europeans / polish etc coming over here.......Unless of course they happen to be female and REALLY REALLY fit !!

    But I can see the bigger picture, that doesnt make it right.
    I don't like niggers either. Nor do I like spics, gooks, ragheads, white trash or lawyers. But I do generelly like, or at least grant the benefit of the doubt, people of any skin color who carry themselves with a sense of dignity and respect. Unless they are trying to kill me. Thats another matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by p1drober
    However the whole point of not forgiving him was to erase any pain, or past injury. When you cast someone out it goes some way to erasing their effect on you.
    ....I also like pain. Or, if I don't like it, at least I understand the need for it.
    Pain, whether physical or emotional - In this case we will stick with emotional, is a necessary thing because pain allows us to identify with moments in our past. These memories, no matter how painfull, should never be erased or forgotten. Memory is the very thing that grants us identity, builds character, helps us learn from past mistakes - even if they are not our own - and makes us who we are.

    As for forgivness, human emotion exsist in a constant state of flux. It is something that can never be measured, categorized or let alone repaid in equal amount. So as a result, forgiving someone is no different than apologizing to someone. Ultimately, they are both irrelevant.

    All that matters is this: If a man who has done wrong stands up, stands his ground and holds himself accountable for what he has done then I wll at least look him in the eye and give him a nod of recognition. From there, he is to recieve the adequet punishment as chosen by the system. If the system is flawed and there is no punishment - or - given whatever the circumstances, there is no system at all - then I will enforce the punishment myself. And on determining whether that punishment is just or unjust, I can only say that I myself am only human and that I would do the best I could. But I do not apologize and I do not forgive.


    ....And I to like eastern European women who are physically fit.
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  14. #13 Re: Forgiving 
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    [quote="Kolt"]
    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins
    But I do not apologize and I do not forgive.
    Arrogant little prick, aren't you?
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  15. #14  
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    Dear Kolt,
    I am so sorry for my last post. Please forgive me.
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    I'm not happy with the change in tone of this thread over the last half dozen or so posts - it's on the threshold of being locked.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    I'm not happy with the change in tone of this thread over the last half dozen or so posts - it's on the threshold of being locked.

    Including mine? I wasn't being offensive. At least I don't think I was. Perhaps you can clarify
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  18. #17  
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    I think perhaps its because you used racial terms such as nigger, spics etc etc.

    Using thowse terms can actually get you arrested in the UK. So its always better to say "African *?&%&^&*?*" instead - as this can be argued as xenophobia and not racism. Therefore perfectly legal.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins
    Using thowse terms can actually get you arrested in the UK. So its always better to say "African *?&%&^&*?*" instead - as this can be argued as xenophobia and not racism. Therefore perfectly legal.
    Kolt may have a problem there as he included lawyers in his list. :wink:

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    Heres an interesting article about a black Britain exploring his past.
    http://www.contactmusic.com/new/home...slavex20x02x07

    ---------

    Back on topic. I think people (and in particular men) only truly forgive someone when there is something to gain. If you have an argument with your girlfriend/wife, friend/family your much more likely to forgive them then if you have the same argument with a stranger or workmate.
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  20. #19  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    You only forgive others when you forgive yourself.
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