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Thread: The Satisfaction of Knowing You're Right

  1. #1 The Satisfaction of Knowing You're Right 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Had a good day today. A couple of high priced business executives were telling me about how they had, through careful analysis, come up with a guaranteed cost cutting procedure in the shipping department of where they were employed. After listening to their solution it took me about 5 minutes to point out the error of their ways and that in fact their new procedure would cost more than the old. They countered with some nonsense about the work, the processes, paperwork and the equipment etc., how they figured things out and so on. So much so that I finally had to say they had no idea what actually goes on in that department. None of them had ever worked in a shipping capacity at any time. Neither have I but I know people who have. Anyway, to make a long story short, they eventually capitulated to my logic. Back to the drawing board for those guys plus they have to explain it to their bosses. Felt a bit sorry for them but I sure felt the rush of self satisfaction.

    When you're right, is the natural reaction to gloat or feel pride? Oh I wanted to rub it in more than I did to those poor buggers but they were feeling like shit. So the opposite is true when you know you're wrong. Being wrong is a hard thing to admit. Hell, we see it here everyday. Trouble is some can't ever admit a mistake. However, there is more of a self-admiring vanity present when you know you've just pulled one out of the hat and made the other guy look stupid. Why do we take so much pleasure from being right?


    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  3. #2  
    Forum Professor Daecon's Avatar
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    It's not just that you're right, it's that the other person is not only wrong but arrogant about it. THAT'S gloat-worthy.


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  4. #3  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Good on you ZInny

    Daecon...you are so right

    I don't have a problem saying I made a mistake.

    I have a problem when others can't.
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  5. #4  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    It's watching those in "authority" make fools of themselves.
    I remember one occasion when I was called into a meeting with the engineering manager, sales manager and installations manager (fortunately I realised immediately on getting the call what the likely problem was going to be) to address concerns about severe and serious customer complaints.
    I'd designed a "gate" (lift-up section of a conveyor system to allow people to move "through" the conveyor line") and associated safety system which was "totally unsatisfactory and potentially dangerous".
    Engineering manager: What you designed was totally inappropriate. The customer suggested alterations and he wants something like this." *Hands over some rough sketches".
    Me: (pulling out a couple of sheets of completed drawings) Yup, what I figured. But my version is easier and safer to use.
    EM: Then why didn't you give that design at the time?
    Me: (pulling out more drawings) Because YOU (to EM) gave me THIS sketch, which happens to have your name on it, and told me it HAD to be done YOUR way. So that's what they got.
    EM: Er, okay. (Looks at folder of more drawings in my hand, realisation dawns). There's two other problems, are you going to come up with the same answers?
    Me: Yep.
    EM: (looking at other two guys then back to me). F*ck off, leave the drawings, we'll sort this out. You're in the clear.

    After that no one tried to over-ride my design decisions again.
    (Fortunately for them it had been the only time they'd done so anyway, but I suppose it was good training for them. I was always right, they just hadn't learned that lesson up to that point).

    Some people seem to equate "earning more money" with "qualified to make decisions about absolutely anything". Life doesn't work like that.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  6. #5  
    Forum Bachelors Degree One beer's Avatar
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    Probably because all males want to be the Alpha male, but only one can be. That person has to earn his position to be respected, so the rest of us rightly get p****d off when some idiot assumes or is handed that role without having any skills or justification in being our boss.

    People respect a good boss but ridicule a bad one, and deep problems occur when one has a bad boss, and therefore we feel good when we can show that person up, especially if they are arrogant and dismissive too.

    OB
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  7. #6  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    *COUGH* and STRUTTING

    I AM THE ALPHA female..bite me
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  8. #7  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Some people seem to equate "earning more money" with "qualified to make decisions about absolutely anything". Life doesn't work like that.
    I think you can say the same for some people who have a higher education too. My favorite is the paid analyst, someone with a college degree(s) who has never set foot in the workplace they're analyzing nor do they ever talk to the frontline people. There's some sort of unwritten law I think and it sort of goes like this: people with higher status know what's right for everyone they regard as beneath them. The corollary being: tell the guy who pays the bills what he wants to hear.

    It's kind of like combat, some authority miles behind the front who's looking at lines or symbols on a map making decisions of life and death for some poor bastard who knows full well what's really happening, the danger involved and the best course of action to take.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    ZINNY I am fallin in love with ya
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  10. #9  
    Bullshit Intolerant PhDemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    *COUGH* and STRUTTING

    I AM THE ALPHA female.
    So around the GAMMA male level? *running*

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    IT'S A JOKE!
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  11. #10  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    *L* SIR DEMON....you're gonna die honey...you are goin down


    they need to get the LIKE button FIXED.....
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  12. #11  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    ZINNY I am fallin in love with ya
    Does an alpha female need to?

    If Jan Stephenson critiques your golf swing then do you consider her to be correct, as opposed to an ordinary duffer who may have said the exact same thing to you? Perhaps all of us through experience in life have developed some kind of criteria we use to determine who's right and who's wrong. Maybe we should be working on this.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  13. #12  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    ZINNY I am fallin in love with ya
    Does an alpha female need to?

    If Jan Stephenson critiques your golf swing then do you consider her to be correct, as opposed to an ordinary duffer who may have said the exact same thing to you? Perhaps all of us through experience in life have developed some kind of criteria we use to determine who's right and who's wrong. Maybe we should be working on this.

    Duffers don't study the swing. She does.

    SHE I my go to lady. She is awesome as a teacher , as a player and as a human being and friend.

    I don't know how I got so lucky.....I am so grateful for life....and everything that I have People take life for granted.

    Don't.
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  14. #13  
    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
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    I feel utterly miserable when wrong. When I win debates, I usually look back only to find gaps in my reasoning that the interlocutor merely failed to address, and thus feel miserable
    "MODERATOR NOTE : We don't entertain trolls here, not even in the trash can. Banned." -Markus Hanke
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  15. #14  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Duffers don't study the swing. She does.
    I hooked up with a guy the other day at the course. Didn't know he was a member and before we got started he was telling me about his golfing exploits, 3 aces so far in his life and so on. I really expected a lot from this guy. I hit first, nice tee shot, bit of a fade but still on the fairway. He told me something about my grip before he hit his shot. Ok I said to myself, thinking that this guy must know what he's talking about. Then the guy tees off and I must say that I have not seen too many swings worse than his. He's 70-80 yards behind my ball and most of that because of the dry conditions here. The rest of the round was excruciating because this guy was horrible but he didn't see it that way. Yes he had excuses for some bad play but I realize that people can have a very high opinion of themselves and as a result be very critical of others.

    You can have as many degrees as you want, be rich and powerful and wield your influence but it will not detract from that person ever being wrong about things. The difference is that they can't see it nor might they ever do so. I take my golf seriously and I know when I am screwing up. I don't hide behind the mask of mitigating circumstances, I'm doing something wrong and I try to fix it. If it means talking to the pro then that's what I have to do. I can't imagine what life is like for my playing partner that day, never wrong and critical of others. Being right, is it a subjective thing or is there a clear and concise way to measure it?

    I feel utterly miserable when wrong. When I win debates, I usually look back only to find gaps in my reasoning that the interlocutor merely failed to address, and thus feel miserable
    But at least you realize it and hindsight is perfect.
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; July 1st, 2014 at 07:14 AM.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  16. #15  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    As a foreman I use to look at the work my employees did after they left and if I found mistakes I'd point them out the next day but only to each one away from the others. That way he didn't feel like crap if he made the mistake since others weren't there to poke fun at him. That way he gained experience as to how things are done the proper way and doesn't make the same error twice, most of the time, I always felt a good foreman tries to help others to make them better and give them another chance to show they can take constructive criticism.

    I'd rather work with my employees rather than look like crap to make my own ego happy. I never asked them to do anything that I wouldn't do and would at times actually jump in to the work at hand so as to teach them something they perhaps never knew. That way I never had to point out who didn't know something because I would be working with many people.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
    Jimi Hendrix
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  17. #16  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    As a foreman I use to look at the work my employees did after they left and if I found mistakes I'd point them out the next day but only to each one away from the others. That way he didn't feel like crap if he made the mistake since others weren't there to poke fun at him. That way he gained experience as to how things are done the proper way and doesn't make the same error twice, most of the time, I always felt a good foreman tries to help others to make them better and give them another chance to show they can take constructive criticism.

    I'd rather work with my employees rather than look like crap to make my own ego happy. I never asked them to do anything that I wouldn't do and would at times actually jump in to the work at hand so as to teach them something they perhaps never knew. That way I never had to point out who didn't know something because I would be working with many people.
    I wonder if there are statistics that can prove whether companies with open dialogue between management and staff fare better on average than those that don't adhere to this policy.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  18. #17  
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    My favorite is the paid analyst, someone with a college degree(s) who has never set foot in the workplace they're analyzing nor do they ever talk to the frontline people.
    I recall that - many years ago - systems analysts and the rest of the computer crowd used to be like that. One wonderful day 40ish years ago they turned up in a work area with a won.der.ful new facility for us to use. A few of us had to go out and call on folks to get them up to date with their payments. We could schedule our work so easily! We've done a won.der.ful summary with all similar addresses grouped together. Every week! Your life will be so easy!

    We asked one question. Which address have you sorted by? They didn't even know why we'd asked. Well, we pointed out, we're not going to find these people at their accountants or their lawyers offices are we. We don't really need a list of several hundred post office boxes in the CBD. If it's not sorted by place of business/ place of residence it's no use at all.

    Oh.

    Triumphant team went back upstairs to have a bit of a think about that.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  19. #18  
    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    *COUGH* and STRUTTING

    I AM THE ALPHA female..bite me
    By self-acclamation I take it?

    Not to worry...I go by the undisputed title of "Queen of the Night" since my female assistant folded her tent and went back to working the day shift.

    As relates to the thread topic, I have the satisfaction of others thinking that I know the answers to all of their challenges which generally results in an agreeable exchange all the way around. If I do not know the answer, I very often know who to refer them to, which is almost as good in their opinion.
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  20. #19  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Duffers don't study the swing. She does.
    I hooked up with a guy the other day at the course. Didn't know he was a member and before we got started he was telling me about his golfing exploits, 3 aces so far in his life and so on. I really expected a lot from this guy. I hit first, nice tee shot, bit of a fade but still on the fairway. He told me something about my grip before he hit his shot. Ok I said to myself, thinking that this guy must know what he's talking about. Then the guy tees off and I must say that I have not seen too many swings worse than his. He's 70-80 yards behind my ball and most of that because of the dry conditions here. The rest of the round was excruciating because this guy was horrible but he didn't see it that way. Yes he had excuses for some bad play but I realize that people can have a very high opinion of themselves and as a result be very critical of others.

    You can have as many degrees as you want, be rich and powerful and wield your influence but it will not detract from that person ever being wrong about things. The difference is that they can't see it nor might they ever do so. I take my golf seriously and I know when I am screwing up. I don't hide behind the mask of mitigating circumstances, I'm doing something wrong and I try to fix it. If it means talking to the pro then that's what I have to do. I can't imagine what life is like for my playing partner that day, never wrong and critical of others. Being right, is it a subjective thing or is there a clear and concise way to measure it?

    I feel utterly miserable when wrong. When I win debates, I usually look back only to find gaps in my reasoning that the interlocutor merely failed to address, and thus feel miserable
    But at least you realize it and hindsight is perfect.
    Never take golf tips from a shitty golfer.....before or after you find out they don't know what the hell they are talking about!

    I have bad rounds and great rounds.....it is GOLF!
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  21. #20  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    *COUGH* and STRUTTING

    I AM THE ALPHA female..bite me
    By self-acclamation I take it?

    Not to worry...I go by the undisputed title of "Queen of the Night" since my female assistant folded her tent and went back to working the day shift.

    As relates to the thread topic, I have the satisfaction of others thinking that I know the answers to all of their challenges which generally results in an agreeable exchange all the way around. If I do not know the answer, I very often know who to refer them to, which is almost as good in their opinion.
    BRAT GIRL!!!

    I have no problem saying, "I am wrong."

    *cough*

    Doesn't happen very often but it does happen!
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  22. #21  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Never take golf tips from a shitty golfer.....before or after you find out they don't know what the hell they are talking about!

    I have bad rounds and great rounds.....it is GOLF!
    Depends on the degree of shittiness variable. Accept only tips if the other guy is better than you or give advice when you know they're worse than you. Otherwise the mouth should stay shut except if the playing partner is bad then only open it to lie about a good shot or yell "Fore". Good shots for a duffer also differ greatly from those of someone who can play. A chip that ends up 6' from the pin is only a good shot for a duffer. Again it all depends on the skill level and is only meant for encouragement in most cases. Hey, we've all been there
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  23. #22  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Never take golf tips from a shitty golfer.....before or after you find out they don't know what the hell they are talking about!

    I have bad rounds and great rounds.....it is GOLF!
    Depends on the degree of shittiness variable. Accept only tips if the other guy is better than you or give advice when you know they're worse than you. Otherwise the mouth should stay shut except if the playing partner is bad then only open it to lie about a good shot or yell "Fore". Good shots for a duffer also differ greatly from those of someone who can play. A chip that ends up 6' from the pin is only a good shot for a duffer. Again it all depends on the skill level and is only meant for encouragement in most cases. Hey, we've all been there
    I have played with too many +1,2,3,4,5 golfers......they shoot in the 60's and I am in awe.
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  24. #23  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Never take golf tips from a shitty golfer.....before or after you find out they don't know what the hell they are talking about!

    I have bad rounds and great rounds.....it is GOLF!
    Depends on the degree of shittiness variable. Accept only tips if the other guy is better than you or give advice when you know they're worse than you. Otherwise the mouth should stay shut except if the playing partner is bad then only open it to lie about a good shot or yell "Fore". Good shots for a duffer also differ greatly from those of someone who can play. A chip that ends up 6' from the pin is only a good shot for a duffer. Again it all depends on the skill level and is only meant for encouragement in most cases. Hey, we've all been there
    I have played with too many +1,2,3,4,5 golfers......they shoot in the 60's and I am in awe.
    Do you worry about your game when they say "good shot"?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  25. #24  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    My favorite is the paid analyst, someone with a college degree(s) who has never set foot in the workplace they're analyzing nor do they ever talk to the frontline people.
    I recall that - many years ago - systems analysts and the rest of the computer crowd used to be like that. One wonderful day 40ish years ago they turned up in a work area with a won.der.ful new facility for us to use. A few of us had to go out and call on folks to get them up to date with their payments. We could schedule our work so easily! We've done a won.der.ful summary with all similar addresses grouped together. Every week! Your life will be so easy!

    We asked one question. Which address have you sorted by? They didn't even know why we'd asked. Well, we pointed out, we're not going to find these people at their accountants or their lawyers offices are we. We don't really need a list of several hundred post office boxes in the CBD. If it's not sorted by place of business/ place of residence it's no use at all.

    Oh.

    Triumphant team went back upstairs to have a bit of a think about that.
    The temptation to not gloat must have been unbearable. It's a case of transferrable gloat. They come at you with a proposal that they believe makes them geniuses (IOW's smarter than you) and knowing what is right and then BOOM it's all gone over to the other side. What a moment.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  26. #25  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Never take golf tips from a shitty golfer.....before or after you find out they don't know what the hell they are talking about!

    I have bad rounds and great rounds.....it is GOLF!
    Depends on the degree of shittiness variable. Accept only tips if the other guy is better than you or give advice when you know they're worse than you. Otherwise the mouth should stay shut except if the playing partner is bad then only open it to lie about a good shot or yell "Fore". Good shots for a duffer also differ greatly from those of someone who can play. A chip that ends up 6' from the pin is only a good shot for a duffer. Again it all depends on the skill level and is only meant for encouragement in most cases. Hey, we've all been there
    I have played with too many +1,2,3,4,5 golfers......they shoot in the 60's and I am in awe.
    Do you worry about your game when they say "good shot"?
    No ....good golfers know that you aren't their equal, but they respect a good shot that you make within your limits......it is part of the sport.

    Ever play a Horserace? IN GOLF!
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  27. #26  
    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    *COUGH* and STRUTTING

    I AM THE ALPHA female..bite me
    By self-acclamation I take it?

    Not to worry...I go by the undisputed title of "Queen of the Night" since my female assistant folded her tent and went back to working the day shift.

    As relates to the thread topic, I have the satisfaction of others thinking that I know the answers to all of their challenges which generally results in an agreeable exchange all the way around. If I do not know the answer, I very often know who to refer them to, which is almost as good in their opinion.
    BRAT GIRL!!!

    I have no problem saying, "I am wrong."

    *cough*

    Doesn't happen very often but it does happen!
    Ditto!

    I will occasionally set myself up to 'err' so that the mere mortals are not intimidated by my omniscience.

    You have my approval to call yourself 'Alpha female' for I am a B.I.T.C.H.. Babe In Total Control of Herself. Besides, you are so good at entertaining 'the troops'. (Scampers off to find new entertainments...)
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  28. #27  
    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
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    There is no satisfaction in knowing you're right. The satisfaction comes when others know it too.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
    President Dwight Eisenhower
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  29. #28  
    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    there is no satisfaction in knowing you're right. The satisfaction comes when others know it too.
    exactly!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    there is no satisfaction in knowing you're right. The satisfaction comes when others know it too.
    exactly!!!
    It is still better to be right than knowing you were wrong. So that must be some comfort, whether or not it is acknowledged..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    there is no satisfaction in knowing you're right. The satisfaction comes when others know it too.
    exactly!!!
    It is still better to be right than knowing you were wrong. So that must be some comfort, whether or not it is acknowledged..
    Unless it is a fatal error, there are no 'wrong' answers, only 'learning opportunities.'

    People don't always enjoy being around people who are too often right, as for some, it only enhances their own insecurities, hence the need to walk gently and not always take the credit, even when you are entitled.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    When you're right, is the natural reaction to gloat or feel pride? Oh I wanted to rub it in more than I did to those poor buggers but they were feeling like shit. So the opposite is true when you know you're wrong. Being wrong is a hard thing to admit. Hell, we see it here everyday. Trouble is some can't ever admit a mistake. However, there is more of a self-admiring vanity present when you know you've just pulled one out of the hat and made the other guy look stupid. Why do we take so much pleasure from being right?
    I'm not sure if it's typical to feel a desire to gloat, but to feel pride? I think so, and I think we react that way because it's a positive affirmation of our identities. I am sure most people like to feel smart and knowledgeable, and in instances where we demonstrate to ourselves that we are knowledgeable about something, we've enabled ourselves to feel intelligent.

    That said, depending on the circumstances, I am sure it's also fairly common to sometimes feel a little uncomfortable being right about something.
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
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    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    That said, depending on the circumstances, I am sure it's also fairly common to sometimes feel a little uncomfortable being right about something.
    Not sure how that would work.
    But: I've just come to the realisation that being right when "everyone else" is wrong also makes you feel good because it's confirmation that your view of the "world" is/ has been all along correct and doesn't need altering.
    Being shown to be wrong means that you've been operating under a misapprehension and, again, depending on circumstance, could lead to a massive rewrite of your (personal) history.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    *cough* and strutting

    i am the alpha female..bite me
    by self-acclamation i take it?

    Not to worry...i go by the undisputed title of "queen of the night" since my female assistant folded her tent and went back to working the day shift.

    As relates to the thread topic, i have the satisfaction of others thinking that i know the answers to all of their challenges which generally results in an agreeable exchange all the way around. If i do not know the answer, i very often know who to refer them to, which is almost as good in their opinion.
    brat girl!!!

    I have no problem saying, "i am wrong."

    *cough*

    doesn't happen very often but it does happen!
    ditto!

    I will occasionally set myself up to 'err' so that the mere mortals are not intimidated by my omniscience.

    You have my approval to call yourself 'alpha female' for i am a b.i.t.c.h.. babe in total control of herself. Besides, you are so good at entertaining 'the troops'. (scampers off to find new entertainments...)

    i love it!!!
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    That said, depending on the circumstances, I am sure it's also fairly common to sometimes feel a little uncomfortable being right about something.
    Not sure how that would work.
    But: I've just come to the realisation that being right when "everyone else" is wrong also makes you feel good because it's confirmation that your view of the "world" is/ has been all along correct and doesn't need altering.
    Being shown to be wrong means that you've been operating under a misapprehension and, again, depending on circumstance, could lead to a massive rewrite of your (personal) history.
    I think if a person begins to notice, even at an early age, that they are right more often than not then it is going to affect how they conduct themselves as an adult. Are confidence and assurance two big advantageous attributes gained through self realization, and yet are there those inhibited or even ashamed by their own intelligence?
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; July 3rd, 2014 at 04:40 AM.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    That said, depending on the circumstances, I am sure it's also fairly common to sometimes feel a little uncomfortable being right about something.
    Not sure how that would work.
    But: I've just come to the realisation that being right when "everyone else" is wrong also makes you feel good because it's confirmation that your view of the "world" is/ has been all along correct and doesn't need altering.
    Being shown to be wrong means that you've been operating under a misapprehension and, again, depending on circumstance, could lead to a massive rewrite of your (personal) history.
    I think if a person begins to notice, even at an early age, that they are right more often than not then it is going to affect how they conduct themselves as an adult. Is confidence and assurance two big advantageous attributes gained through self realization, and yet are there those inhibited or even ashamed by their own intelligence?

    But they also need to learn to admit when they are wrong and own up to it. Both are character builders.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    But they also need to learn to admit when they are wrong and own up to it. Both are character builders.
    I also think there are people who need to admit they're right. Would it do us any good if Dywd was embarrassed by his own intelligence?

    On the other hand, both you, myself and everyone else have met people, you know, the guy who works over in the corner and nobody knows who he is, who upon even just a casual chat exhibit an intelligence that belittles your own. Yet that guy is not comfortable with it, why?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I think if a person begins to notice, even at an early age, that they are right more often than not then it is going to affect how they conduct themselves as an adult. Are confidence and assurance two big advantageous attributes gained through self realization, and yet are there those inhibited or even ashamed by their own intelligence?
    Not sure how that relates to what I wrote, except that the more right you are then, circumstances dependent of course, the bigger shock it [could] turn[s] out to be when you're wrong.
    I suppose that "being right more often than not" could also lead to overconfidence in fields you're not "qualified" to comment upon. Although that aspect may be self-correcting.
    Er, unless the reputation is established sufficiently well for other people to not question pronunciations from the "right guy"...

    As for "inhibition/ shame" I'd say yes.
    I've had occasion where I've had to "reign" back (quite drastically in some cases) on what I know when talking to some people.
    On the other hand, you can also have fun with it.
    Got sent on a team-building course once, with a number of people that included my office manager - a typical Dilbert-style PHB (Pointy-Haired Boss 1).
    At one point during the proceedings I made a bad joke 2 that everyone except the PHB got and laughed at.
    His comment was "It's not like you to make a basic slip like that on terminology".
    Rather than explain the joke (never a good thing) I took a different tack and said "Well I've found that I sometimes scare people when they realise how smart I really am, so I decided to make obvious mistakes now and again to show that I do commit errors, because then it makes me less intellectually intimidating".
    He not only fell for that "reason" but spent the next couple of months informing all and sundry that not only was I incredibly clever but that I was also really considerate about other's feelings 3.

    1 If you're not familiar with the character from the Dilbert strip I can assure you that you're almost certainly familiar with the archetype in real life.
    2 I much prefer "bad" jokes most of the time.
    3 Much to the amusement of those people who actually did know me. "Considerate" and "[Dywyddyr]" are NOT two words that go well together.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Zinny.....some good points there......I kind of like Sir Ducky.....even if he doesn't like me......I'll just clip his wings!!!!! It's GREAT being RIGHT!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    It's GREAT being RIGHT!!!
    Only because for you it's so rare... For me it's just the default state nothing to write home about

    *running away*
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I kind of like Sir Ducky.....even if he doesn't like ANYBODY
    FIFY.

    It's GREAT being RIGHT!!!
    Considering that I've just had to correct you, how would you know?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    It's GREAT being RIGHT!!!
    Only because for you it's so rare... For me it's just the default state nothing to write home about

    *running away*

    YOU CANNOT RUN FAST ENOUGH BUDDY!!

    I may be petite, but I am FAST!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I kind of like Sir Ducky.....even if he doesn't like ANYBODY
    FIFY.

    It's GREAT being RIGHT!!!
    Considering that I've just had to correct you, how would you know?
    What the heck is FIFY!!

    How was I corrected..checking my feet and hands and batting my eyelashes at the foie gras
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    What the heck is FIFY!!
    It is either
    a) a pet name given to poodles (or the children of Bob Geldof)
    b) the first part of what a giant says when chasing boys called Jack or
    c) an acronym for "Fixed It For You", it is used when someone edits your post to either correct an error (or more usually for humorous effect).
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    Quote Originally Posted by phdemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    what the heck is fify!!
    it is either
    a) a pet name given to poodles (or the children of bob geldof)
    b) the first part of what a giant says when chasing boys called jack or
    c) an acronym for "fixed it for you", it is used when someone edits your post to either correct an error (or more usually for humorous effect).
    smack!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by phdemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    what the heck is fify!!
    it is either
    a) a pet name given to poodles (or the children of bob geldof)
    b) the first part of what a giant says when chasing boys called jack or
    c) an acronym for "fixed it for you", it is used when someone edits your post to either correct an error (or more usually for humorous effect).
    smack!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Sheesh...

    If that's how you treat someone when they are being helpful, then it is fortunate Demon caught you in a good mood and/or has demonstrated an ability to thrive on abuse, lol...

    'Sir Ducky' was merely establishing that he is most democratic in his antipathy. It is not in his nature to demonstrate favoritism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by phdemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    what the heck is fify!!
    it is either
    a) a pet name given to poodles (or the children of bob geldof)
    b) the first part of what a giant says when chasing boys called jack or
    c) an acronym for "fixed it for you", it is used when someone edits your post to either correct an error (or more usually for humorous effect).
    smack!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Sheesh...

    If that's how you treat someone when they are being helpful, then it is fortunate Demon caught you in a good mood and/or has demonstrated an ability to thrive on abuse, lol...

    'Sir Ducky' was merely establishing that he is most democratic in his antipathy. It is not in his nature to demonstrate favoritism.
    After over a year, they should recognize my teasing ways by now!! *L*

    I adore both of them, even when they correct me when I am dead wrong. *S*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babe
    smack!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade
    it is fortunate Demon caught you in a good mood and/or has demonstrated an ability to thrive on abuse, lol...
    That wasn't "abuse", I wouldn't even categorise my responses to the cranks here as "abuse", you should see me when I really lose my temper
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Sheesh...

    If that's how you treat someone when they are being helpful, then it is fortunate Demon caught you in a good mood and/or has demonstrated an ability to thrive on abuse, lol...

    'Sir Ducky' was merely establishing that he is most democratic in his antipathy. It is not in his nature to demonstrate favoritism.
    After over a year, they should recognize my teasing ways by now!! *L*

    I adore both of them, even when they correct me when I am dead wrong. *S*
    I must confess that the male delight in 'negative reinforcement' has ever eluded my understanding.
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    You know I love ya Sir Demon and DUCKY POO!! *L*

    I just like to rattle your cages every once in awhile.......

    but guys....ahahahahhhah where is my LOVE BACK!!! *laughing*
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    Alright "Stewie"



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    That said, depending on the circumstances, I am sure it's also fairly common to sometimes feel a little uncomfortable being right about something.
    Not sure how that would work.
    But: I've just come to the realisation that being right when "everyone else" is wrong also makes you feel good because it's confirmation that your view of the "world" is/ has been all along correct and doesn't need altering.
    Being shown to be wrong means that you've been operating under a misapprehension and, again, depending on circumstance, could lead to a massive rewrite of your (personal) history.
    I was mostly thinking of circumstances where correcting somebody might be a little socially awkward. Like correcting somebody on something related to their profession, or correcting somebody when they've gone too deep into a rabbit hole when it isn't necessary. Being right is great... But for me I really dislike it when it's at someone else's expense. In a real life social situation I'd only correct somebody if it was important, and even then I'd give every opportunity for them to save face if they felt the need to do so. I guess sometimes I feel like being knowledgeable about something can come off as a mixture of condescension and flaunting, which is why I sometimes feel uncomfortable being right when it means someone else is wrong... I know I'm right and will feel good about that either way, no need to point out why someone else is wrong if it isn't important. Know what I mean?
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
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    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post

    I was mostly thinking of circumstances where correcting somebody might be a little socially awkward. Like correcting somebody on something related to their profession, or correcting somebody when they've gone too deep into a rabbit hole when it isn't necessary. Being right is great... But for me I really dislike it when it's at someone else's expense. In a real life social situation I'd only correct somebody if it was important, and even then I'd give every opportunity for them to save face if they felt the need to do so. I guess sometimes I feel like being knowledgeable about something can come off as a mixture of condescension and flaunting, which is why I sometimes feel uncomfortable being right when it means someone else is wrong... I know I'm right and will feel good about that either way, no need to point out why someone else is wrong if it isn't important. Know what I mean?
    I completely get where you are coming from. Going out of one's way to find fault with others is a serious character flaw in itself and demonstrates a lack of self confidence, in my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by phdemon View Post
    alright "stewie"




    brat!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    that said, depending on the circumstances, i am sure it's also fairly common to sometimes feel a little uncomfortable being right about something.
    not sure how that would work.
    But: I've just come to the realisation that being right when "everyone else" is wrong also makes you feel good because it's confirmation that your view of the "world" is/ has been all along correct and doesn't need altering.
    Being shown to be wrong means that you've been operating under a misapprehension and, again, depending on circumstance, could lead to a massive rewrite of your (personal) history.
    i was mostly thinking of circumstances where correcting somebody might be a little socially awkward. Like correcting somebody on something related to their profession, or correcting somebody when they've gone too deep into a rabbit hole when it isn't necessary. Being right is great... But for me i really dislike it when it's at someone else's expense. In a real life social situation i'd only correct somebody if it was important, and even then i'd give every opportunity for them to save face if they felt the need to do so. I guess sometimes i feel like being knowledgeable about something can come off as a mixture of condescension and flaunting, which is why i sometimes feel uncomfortable being right when it means someone else is wrong... I know i'm right and will feel good about that either way, no need to point out why someone else is wrong if it isn't important. Know what i mean?

    good on you!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post

    I was mostly thinking of circumstances where correcting somebody might be a little socially awkward. Like correcting somebody on something related to their profession, or correcting somebody when they've gone too deep into a rabbit hole when it isn't necessary. Being right is great... But for me I really dislike it when it's at someone else's expense. In a real life social situation I'd only correct somebody if it was important, and even then I'd give every opportunity for them to save face if they felt the need to do so. I guess sometimes I feel like being knowledgeable about something can come off as a mixture of condescension and flaunting, which is why I sometimes feel uncomfortable being right when it means someone else is wrong... I know I'm right and will feel good about that either way, no need to point out why someone else is wrong if it isn't important. Know what I mean?
    I completely get where you are coming from. Going out of one's way to find fault with others is a serious character flaw in itself and demonstrates a lack of self confidence, in my opinion.
    Yep, but then......ahahahahahaha I'm usually WRONG!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post

    I was mostly thinking of circumstances where correcting somebody might be a little socially awkward. Like correcting somebody on something related to their profession, or correcting somebody when they've gone too deep into a rabbit hole when it isn't necessary. Being right is great... But for me I really dislike it when it's at someone else's expense. In a real life social situation I'd only correct somebody if it was important, and even then I'd give every opportunity for them to save face if they felt the need to do so. I guess sometimes I feel like being knowledgeable about something can come off as a mixture of condescension and flaunting, which is why I sometimes feel uncomfortable being right when it means someone else is wrong... I know I'm right and will feel good about that either way, no need to point out why someone else is wrong if it isn't important. Know what I mean?
    I completely get where you are coming from. Going out of one's way to find fault with others is a serious character flaw in itself and demonstrates a lack of self confidence, in my opinion.
    Yep, but then......ahahahahahaha I'm usually WRONG!!
    ...and yet most of us refrain from incurring your ire by even making mention...

    I'm off to work shortly. Have fun entertaining the troops.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post

    I was mostly thinking of circumstances where correcting somebody might be a little socially awkward. Like correcting somebody on something related to their profession, or correcting somebody when they've gone too deep into a rabbit hole when it isn't necessary. Being right is great... But for me I really dislike it when it's at someone else's expense. In a real life social situation I'd only correct somebody if it was important, and even then I'd give every opportunity for them to save face if they felt the need to do so. I guess sometimes I feel like being knowledgeable about something can come off as a mixture of condescension and flaunting, which is why I sometimes feel uncomfortable being right when it means someone else is wrong... I know I'm right and will feel good about that either way, no need to point out why someone else is wrong if it isn't important. Know what I mean?
    I completely get where you are coming from. Going out of one's way to find fault with others is a serious character flaw in itself and demonstrates a lack of self confidence, in my opinion.
    Yep, but then......ahahahahahaha I'm usually WRONG!!
    ...and yet most of us refrain from incurring your ire by even making mention...

    I'm off to work shortly. Have fun entertaining the troops.
    *laughing*

    My redhead bite isn't THAT BAD!!!.....well.....maybe a little bit....*CHOMP*


    Entertainment is what I do!! Hopefully I am doing it well!
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    I was mostly thinking of circumstances where correcting somebody might be a little socially awkward. Like correcting somebody on something related to their profession, or correcting somebody when they've gone too deep into a rabbit hole when it isn't necessary. Being right is great... But for me I really dislike it when it's at someone else's expense. In a real life social situation I'd only correct somebody if it was important, and even then I'd give every opportunity for them to save face if they felt the need to do so. I guess sometimes I feel like being knowledgeable about something can come off as a mixture of condescension and flaunting, which is why I sometimes feel uncomfortable being right when it means someone else is wrong... I know I'm right and will feel good about that either way, no need to point out why someone else is wrong if it isn't important. Know what I mean?
    Ah, but what's important?
    To use your examples:
    if it's their profession surely that means it's important, to them at the very least. (After all if they continue under a misapprehension in the job how far could it spread? How long will they stay employed? What's the effect fed down to customers?)
    gone too deep into the rabbit hole? Um, the sooner you get out of the rabbit hole the better, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    I completely get where you are coming from. Going out of one's way to find fault with others is a serious character flaw in itself and demonstrates a lack of self confidence, in my opinion.
    Hmm, when you know a lot you don't have to "go out of your way". Errors are visible all the time. (To borrow from Lynne Truss). They jump up and wave at you.

    Let's reverse it: someone makes an error and you don't correct them.
    That means that
    A) you don't care enough about facts/ correctness/ getting things right to do anything about, and, by corollary,
    B) they don't care enough about what they're doing to be bothered to find out if what they're saying/ doing/ promoting is correct.

    Promote sloppiness, let errors slide!

    Along the lines of something I read recently (that was more about social injustices): what you walk past you tacitly condone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    I was mostly thinking of circumstances where correcting somebody might be a little socially awkward. Like correcting somebody on something related to their profession, or correcting somebody when they've gone too deep into a rabbit hole when it isn't necessary. Being right is great... But for me I really dislike it when it's at someone else's expense. In a real life social situation I'd only correct somebody if it was important, and even then I'd give every opportunity for them to save face if they felt the need to do so. I guess sometimes I feel like being knowledgeable about something can come off as a mixture of condescension and flaunting, which is why I sometimes feel uncomfortable being right when it means someone else is wrong... I know I'm right and will feel good about that either way, no need to point out why someone else is wrong if it isn't important. Know what I mean?
    Ah, but what's important?
    To use your examples:
    if it's their profession surely that means it's important, to them at the very least. (After all if they continue under a misapprehension in the job how far could it spread? How long will they stay employed? What's the effect fed down to customers?)
    gone too deep into the rabbit hole? Um, the sooner you get out of the rabbit hole the better, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    I completely get where you are coming from. Going out of one's way to find fault with others is a serious character flaw in itself and demonstrates a lack of self confidence, in my opinion.
    Hmm, when you know a lot you don't have to "go out of your way". Errors are visible all the time. (To borrow from Lynne Truss). They jump up and wave at you.

    Let's reverse it: someone makes an error and you don't correct them.
    That means that
    A) you don't care enough about facts/ correctness/ getting things right to do anything about, and, by corollary,
    B) they don't care enough about what they're doing to be bothered to find out if what they're saying/ doing/ promoting is correct.

    Promote sloppiness, let errors slide!

    Along the lines of something I read recently (that was more about social injustices): what you walk past you tacitly condone.
    know a lot about music and and theatre and performing....science...I do not.
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    Along the lines of something I read recently (that was more about social injustices): what you walk past you tacitly condone.
    That would be ... The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. Admittedly a very different scenario. But it's the concept, not expressed the same way, behind TeamSTEPPS in the hospital system for patient safety. Basically, if you see a problem, you don't walk past it, you find someone else to deal with it if you're not qualified or available to do it yourself. TeamSTEPPS Master Training | Johns Hopkins Armstrong Institute

    As for The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. I'm glad I never had to face up to this bloke as a manager who was at all displeased with me.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaqpoeVgr8U
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Love it, a thousand likes to you sir.
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    Update on OP. One of the two guys got demoted. Apparently they mutually agreed to ignore my advice and to let their plan continue on to see if it would work. However, before it had a chance to fail, one guy explained the problem with it to management behind the other guy's back. The son of a bitch took my advice and gave himself credit for it. It solidified his position in the company and it got his colleague lowered in rank. Kudos, wish that I had been wrong or should I be even more satisfied? One must be able to judge human character more than advice it seems. The bosses in this case have no idea or refuse to believe that the guy they didn't demote was wrong all along also. Guess it would be too hard to Google that one.

    Are we more apt to listen to or act on a person who is never right, wrong more than right, right more than wrong or always right? I think that in order to select any of these choices one must first experience them. For the person who is always right, you wouldn't recognize that person as such unless this is what you have learned from dealing with that person. Same goes for everyone else. My tendency would be to trust a person I know is always right and even someone who is nearly always right.

    However, I've come across people who believe they are always right even if they are or aren't. Now I'm not sure if I would put total faith in those individuals. I mean it's great to have so much confidence in yourself that you can proclaim your intellectual superiority but I'm sure some of us have met people who believe they have nothing to offer even if they have the best solutions.

    Analytical minds....An always right personality versus someone who takes the time to study the situation or question. What is your preference there?

    Edit: just realized that if I were to act on the advice of a person who is always wrong then all I would have to do is the opposite of what they tell me. In a bizarre way, the person who is always wrong can lead you in the right direction, you just have to understand and trust how to act on their advice
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; July 5th, 2014 at 10:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Update on OP. One of the two guys got demoted. Apparently they mutually agreed to ignore my advice and to let their plan continue on to see if it would work. However, before it had a chance to fail, one guy explained the problem with it to management behind the other guy's back. The son of a bitch took my advice and gave himself credit for it. It solidified his position in the company and it got his colleague lowered in rank. Kudos, wish that I had been wrong or should I be even more satisfied? One must be able to judge human character more than advice it seems. The bosses in this case have no idea or refuse to believe that the guy they didn't demote was wrong all along also. Guess it would be too hard to Google that one.
    So I guess the moral of the story is that the arrogantly wrong are also dishonest and can't be trusted. Which I guess makes sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post

    So I guess the moral of the story is that the arrogantly wrong are also dishonest and can't be trusted. Which I guess makes sense.
    Maybe so.

    Never thought of a moral for it but how about two wrongs make a right. It also demonstrates that it's good to admit the other guy's mistake.
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    CBC Radio was running a piece as I was driving home from work yesterday discussing the researched observation that less affluent people are not only more generous to others but also more law-abiding when it came to observing traffic rules and regulations such as watching for and granting the right-of-way to pedestrians waiting at crosswalks. Apparently the concept of 'noblesse oblige' is not as strong among those of 'new money' as it once was to those who were raised in a position of social advantage.

    I find this rather interesting in light of the current discussion surrounding the topic of the satisfaction of being right. There seems to be a correlation in this feeling of 'entitlement' whether the topic is being right or being rich. I'm not rich, but I compensate by being correct more often than not, lol. We are all entitled to our (wrong) opinions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    CBC Radio was running a piece as I was driving home from work yesterday discussing the researched observation that less affluent people are not only more generous to others but also more law-abiding when it came to observing traffic rules and regulations such as watching for and granting the right-of-way to pedestrians waiting at crosswalks. Apparently the concept of 'noblesse oblige' is not as strong among those of 'new money' as it once was to those who were raised in a position of social advantage.

    I find this rather interesting in light of the current discussion surrounding the topic of the satisfaction of being right. There seems to be a correlation in this feeling of 'entitlement' whether the topic is being right or being rich. I'm not rich, but I compensate by being correct more often than not, lol. We are all entitled to our (wrong) opinions.
    I saw another study like that when it came to taking candy. pretty eye opening. the "rich" feel entitled to everything.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    I like being rich. :-)
    Prevents me from whining about rich people-
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    Politicians, clerics, bosses and law enforcement (including lawyers)..... do their entitlements mean they are right most every time? Think many of those people believe they are? Of that group is there one that stands out more than the others?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    As a foreman I use to look at the work my employees did after they left and if I found mistakes I'd point them out the next day but only to each one away from the others. That way he didn't feel like crap if he made the mistake since others weren't there to poke fun at him. That way he gained experience as to how things are done the proper way and doesn't make the same error twice, most of the time, I always felt a good foreman tries to help others to make them better and give them another chance to show they can take constructive criticism.

    I'd rather work with my employees rather than look like crap to make my own ego happy. I never asked them to do anything that I wouldn't do and would at times actually jump in to the work at hand so as to teach them something they perhaps never knew. That way I never had to point out who didn't know something because I would be working with many people.

    I wonder if there are statistics that can prove whether companies with open dialogue between management and staff fare better on average than those that don't adhere to this policy.

    Some blood banks adopted a policy from the aviation industry of anonymous reporting of non-incident errors, including ones own mistakes. By non-incident, I mean mistakes or over sights -"close calls" - that didn't directly affect the patient. When they did this, their error rate went way, way up because more were being reported, but their actual incident errors dropped. And they were better able to identify systemic problems, eg, people catching themselves mislabeling, or almost mislabeling, a specimen simply because the printer didn't boldly demarcate patient A's label's from patient B's. Anyway, it's interesting what happens when you take ego or fear out of the equation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianeG View Post
    Some blood banks adopted a policy from the aviation industry of anonymous reporting of non-incident errors, including ones own mistakes. By non-incident, I mean mistakes or over sights -"close calls" - that didn't directly affect the patient. When they did this, their error rate went way, way up because more were being reported, but their actual incident errors dropped. And they were better able to identify systemic problems, eg, people catching themselves mislabeling, or almost mislabeling, a specimen simply because the printer didn't boldly demarcate patient A's label's from patient B's. Anyway, it's interesting what happens when you take ego or fear out of the equation.
    Anonymity is a wonderful change in the way a company could track and eliminate mistakes. Many companies have a Quality Assurance (QA) in their workplace but they identify the person(s) committing the errors. I think many of us from personal experience know that there are many errors that go unreported because no one wants to get their fellow employee in trouble, and especially themselves. I'm not sure it works though because if you identify an error then how hard is it to find the perpetrator? Surely the individual can be identified, no? Is there something else to this idea that you haven't mentioned?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    When you're right, it's nice. But most importantly of all to determine the truth.
    And who is right - it does not matter. Just someone more fortunate in logical thinking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DianeG View Post
    Some blood banks adopted a policy from the aviation industry of anonymous reporting of non-incident errors, including ones own mistakes. By non-incident, I mean mistakes or over sights -"close calls" - that didn't directly affect the patient. When they did this, their error rate went way, way up because more were being reported, but their actual incident errors dropped. And they were better able to identify systemic problems, eg, people catching themselves mislabeling, or almost mislabeling, a specimen simply because the printer didn't boldly demarcate patient A's label's from patient B's. Anyway, it's interesting what happens when you take ego or fear out of the equation.
    Anonymity is a wonderful change in the way a company could track and eliminate mistakes. Many companies have a Quality Assurance (QA) in their workplace but they identify the person(s) committing the errors. I think many of us from personal experience know that there are many errors that go unreported because no one wants to get their fellow employee in trouble, and especially themselves. I'm not sure it works though because if you identify an error then how hard is it to find the perpetrator? Surely the individual can be identified, no? Is there something else to this idea that you haven't mentioned?
    Yes, it would probably only work well in larger departments where it wasn't obvious who was responsible. And I'm guessing, too, it works best in areas where people already have a strong emotional motivation to perform well - no one wants a plane to crash or a person to have a transfusion reaction because of a mistake they made. But they also don't want to look like a dumb ass or get fired for a mistake that didn't cause any harm. So it's a matter of encouraging people to acknowledge small errors before they turn into a big one, without penalty, and to uncover weaknesses in the system that make everyone vulnerable to making that same error.
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    Now, I'm maybe not the right person to say this - or, perhaps, the not one that people will believe is saying it, but... we're human 1.
    We DO make mistakes.

    Many years ago we had some super-duper consultant called in to talk to the entire workforce to promote some "error-free work ethic" that had just come into fashion.
    Mr. Expert stood and began his spiel: "We all know that you go for a second without making a mistake, five seconds, ten. Today I'm gong to teach you how to go all day without making a mistake".
    Unfortunately for him there was smart-arse in the audience. "Excuse me. I know you can go for 20 seconds without breathing, 30, a minute. Can you extend that to a full day?"
    Mr. Expert: "Er. What?"
    Smart-arse: "You seem to be ignoring the fact that error-making is a statistical thing - it's almost guaranteed. The longer you persist at any given task the likelier it is that you'll do something wrong. Are you telling us that you've found a way to circumvent the laws of nature, or are you talking bollocks and, not incidentally, charging gullible management large sums of cash for the privilege of doing so?"
    I didn't listen to any more of the proceedings.

    A similar occurrence happened at a different firm I later worked for - but it wasn't me this time.
    Mr. Expert: "Today I'm going to teach you that ANY task can be accomplished in far less than half the time you estimated".
    Different Smart-arse: "Um, you've scheduled 2 hours to teach us this. Could you do it in 3/4 of an hour so that we can go have an early lunch?"
    Apparently working faster doesn't apply to instructing people on how to work faster...

    1 Generalising here, of course, but you get the picture.
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    In addition to which, if it were not 'human to err', then far too many of us would be deprived of our 'raison d'ètre'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    In addition to which, if it were not 'human to err', then far too many of us would be deprived of our 'raison d'ètre'.
    I always thought raison d'etre was a way of saying human life was a shriveled up, dry, disdainful, grape.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Now, I'm maybe not the right person to say this - or, perhaps, the not one that people will believe is saying it, but... we're human 1.
    We DO make mistakes.

    Many years ago we had some super-duper consultant called in to talk to the entire workforce to promote some "error-free work ethic" that had just come into fashion.
    Mr. Expert stood and began his spiel: "We all know that you go for a second without making a mistake, five seconds, ten. Today I'm gong to teach you how to go all day without making a mistake".
    Unfortunately for him there was smart-arse in the audience. "Excuse me. I know you can go for 20 seconds without breathing, 30, a minute. Can you extend that to a full day?"
    Mr. Expert: "Er. What?"
    Smart-arse: "You seem to be ignoring the fact that error-making is a statistical thing - it's almost guaranteed. The longer you persist at any given task the likelier it is that you'll do something wrong. Are you telling us that you've found a way to circumvent the laws of nature, or are you talking bollocks and, not incidentally, charging gullible management large sums of cash for the privilege of doing so?"
    I didn't listen to any more of the proceedings.
    There's also "regression toward the mean" to consider. We often think the things we do to people, like yelling at them, improves performance, when it would have occurred anyway. For example, a student pilot has a better than usual landing, given his experience and skill level. The instructor praises him. Then he has an average, or even a worse than normal landing, and the instructor screams at him. His next landing is better, closer to his average performance. So the instructor concludes that praise is much less effective than criticism, when actually the student needs both positive and negative feedback, and slowly improves over time with deviations along the way. But from the instructor's point of view, his student often did worse when he praised him and better when he ripped his head off.
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    I screw up.

    I am human.

    Please don't shoot me!
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    Another thing that medicine is borrowing from aviation is the concept of the "black box". I heard on the CBC today that they are considering recording surgeries in order to find out what might have gone wrong during an unsuccessful operation. It raises issues with how these recordings might be used in malpractice suits, but where they've been used so far, they discovered that certain errors or problems tend to occur at specific points in the procedure and this wasn't noticed from written reports of what happened, so it has been really useful already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianeG View Post
    Another thing that medicine is borrowing from aviation is the concept of the "black box". I heard on the CBC today that they are considering recording surgeries in order to find out what might have gone wrong during an unsuccessful operation. It raises issues with how these recordings might be used in malpractice suits, but where they've been used so far, they discovered that certain errors or problems tend to occur at specific points in the procedure and this wasn't noticed from written reports of what happened, so it has been really useful already.
    Very interesting.
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    Speaking about always being right, what is it about aggression between countries that supporters of the nations involved refuse to acknowledge that their side started hostilities? The first shot it seems, is usually attributed to the other side, the enemy. Is there something to be gained by the claim? Is it a case where being wrong cannot be admitted at all because there's too much at stake? On a national scale, is it worthwhile to correct a supporter of an untruth or is that person right, regardless.?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Zinny, I think it is all about perception. To be right means you are perceived by the world to be the one to root for....sympathy thought, so to speak!
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Zinny, I think it is all about perception. To be right means you are perceived by the world to be the one to root for....sympathy thought, so to speak!
    How can I doubt the word of the forum Goddess? I hope your satisfied.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Zinny, I think it is all about perception. To be right means you are perceived by the world to be the one to root for....sympathy thought, so to speak!

    I always (as of late) try to connect synchronicties for me. What I connected to here and elsewhere reminded me that having the multitudes agree with and champion you may not always coincide with being true to yourself. I think I will never really fit in very well on this forum in an overall general sense, but I still think I can offer somethings to some people and learn from allies and foes alike.

    Life, I see as a building process. I really do not know what type of life I am wanting to build, but I do rely on inner resources which will guide me. Sometimes I will go with the flow, and sometimes will swim upstream. That does not mean I am a talking Salmon, however. (No disrespect meant to fish). They swim far better than I do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Zinny, I think it is all about perception.
    Only in the way I mentioned earlier: post #32 -
    But: I've just come to the realisation that being right when "everyone else" is wrong also makes you feel good because it's confirmation that your view of the "world" is/ has been all along correct and doesn't need altering.
    Being shown to be wrong means that you've been operating under a misapprehension and, again, depending on circumstance, could lead to a massive rewrite of your (personal) history.
    If you're wrong you have to back up, alter your perceptions and start again.
    If you're right you don't.
    You progress faster.

    To be right means you are perceived by the world to be the one to root for
    Bugger that.
    Who cares what the world thinks?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  88. #87  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    I always (as of late) try to connect synchronicties for me. What I connected to here and elsewhere reminded me that having the multitudes agree with and champion you may not always coincide with being true to yourself. I think I will never really fit in very well on this forum in an overall general sense, but I still think I can offer somethings to some people and learn from allies and foes alike.
    Perhaps, and I believe this has been discussed here before, the expectations of the forum creators were set too high. I hope they never thought that only scientists or a great majority of them would frequent the forum. If so then I'm leaning towards them being dead wrong. So would missing out or being wrong on that one expectation mean the forum's integrity needs serious protection? To be wrong about something, does it make us more determined to protect ourselves from ridicule, if only to prevent others from conducting a closer examination of us? Or if we are wrong, especially when we are experts at certain things, then is it possible that in order to keep ourselves from further embarrassment or derision, that we are intent on ensuring everyone else knows when others are wrong every chance we get?

    Ridicule to me, is a scientist's worst nightmare. A lifetime of work can suddenly seem worthless and career/fame can disappear just like that. So if a scientist feels inclined to critique comments made here, even in a discourteous manner, then does it reflect their fear of potential for failure? Scientists know that knowledge is only as good as they can ascertain it to be at the moment, they're not stupid. It seems they will not tolerate any deviation from scientifically known fact that is contrary to the conventional unless you can back it up, we shouldn't expect anything less. It's the nature of the discipline.
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; July 13th, 2014 at 10:37 AM.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Right and wrong are relativities.
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  90. #89  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    Right and wrong are relativities.
    Ok, you're doing it again. Declarations need explanations/definitions. What if for your post I said no they don't? Then we have a Monty Python argument where no facts, examples or reasons are given. It just doesn't work here and could result in severe ridicule if your not careful. This forum is much different than most opinion forums because your opinion means very little unless you can show why you feel this way. Be very careful how you word your thoughts, if not sure then there are plenty of words you can interject to make it sound less brash. I do it all the time, at least I try do. Call me non-commital, for the most part anyways......see what I'm talking about?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  91. #90  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    Right and wrong are relativities.
    Apart from the f*ck up in the wording (they may be "relative" but they're not "relativities") whether or not they're "relative" at all depends on context/ circumstance.
    2+2 is right. (Using "ordinary maths").
    Any other answer is wrong.
    Getting 10p change from a tenner on a purchase of £9.90 is right.
    Any other figure is wrong.
    Claiming you're 75 feet tall and 257 years old is wrong.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Really man? Right and wrong are ideas we make up in our minds. You argue this point? Your proofs, please?
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  93. #92  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    Really man? Right and wrong are ideas we make up in our minds. You argue this point? Your proofs, please?
    Yeah more bollocks.
    I clearly stated MY context.
    YOU made the initial claim, where are YOUR "proofs"?
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    My proof is simple. You believe something is right or wrong. Without your belief in right or wrong, they do not exist. Do an experiment and don't belive in right and wrong - do they still exist for you? No, they are simply beliefs, and personally created and/or accepted judgements.

    BTW, my comment you replied to was actually meant for a different grumpy ole man whose name starts with a z.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Mayflow....... you're not getting it. If for instance you owned an ice cream shop would you allow someone to post a sign on your door that claimed your ice cream tasted like shit or all the ice cream you sell contained shit. No you wouldn't unless your daft. Same thing goes here, it's a science forum, you just can't say things without any reason for us to believe it so. Integrity needs protection from ....well....I'll let you figure that out. I'm trying to be nice to you, so thanks for the description of me.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Mayflow....... you're not getting it. If for instance you owned an ice cream shop would you allow someone to post a sign on your door that claimed your ice cream tasted like shit or all the ice cream you sell contained shit. No you wouldn't unless your daft. Same thing goes here, it's a science forum, you just can't say things without any reason for us to believe it so.
    So I can't do what you just did?
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  97. #96  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Mayflow....... you're not getting it. If for instance you owned an ice cream shop would you allow someone to post a sign on your door that claimed your ice cream tasted like shit or all the ice cream you sell contained shit. No you wouldn't unless your daft. Same thing goes here, it's a science forum, you just can't say things without any reason for us to believe it so.
    So I can't do what you just did?
    I did some editing. I missed mentioning about integrity being at stake.

    You get lambasted because you don't seem to realize that when people look at TSF, any inane comments that are not checked or expelled could reflect on .... forget it..... why do I bother....don't wish to get the thread derailed arguing about something I can't change. Thanks for your time....I'm done.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    I do have integrity, and it I shall revere. When I believe what I believe, I will stick to my guns, and I have more than sufficient self confidence to do so. If somone can tell me of new ideas - I will entertain them. I would be quite pleasantly surprised should you offer any. Hint- the idea of integrity was a possible start.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    My proof is simple. You believe something is right or wrong. Without your belief in right or wrong, they do not exist. Do an experiment and don't belive in right and wrong - do they still exist for you? No, they are simply beliefs, and personally created and/or accepted judgements.
    Yeah, this too is bollocks.
    It relies absolutely on an unsupported assertion.
    And does NOT - in any way - constitute a "proof".
    Whether you "believe" 2+2=4 or does not affect the correctness, or otherwise, of the answer.
    You appear, at the very least, to be conflating moral "right & wrong" with right and wrong as an overall concept/ actuality.

    BTW, my comment you replied to was actually meant for a different grumpy ole man whose name starts with a z.
    Doesn't matter, you were still spouting unsupported bollocks (and applying a double standard).
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    That is not true. Right and wrong are opinions. 2+2 is not an opinion as it stands as truth of a sort, abeit confined to a certain math system and not an opinion. "Unsupported bullock" is an opinon, and I hold the same opinion in that regards for you as you seem to do for me.

    The difference of opinion lies more with the Admins and mods here who like to ban me for speaking my mind, but not ban you for doing the same as I do. See? This I can call wrong, as I believe in Freedom of expression, but that is my own moral judgment, not a truth or a fact, but to me it has self worth, which I feel we each must manufacture for ourselves out of - guess what? - Personal integrity.
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  101. #100  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    Right and wrong are opinions.
    Wrong.
    (And that's not an opinion: it's a fact).
    You're STILL (apparently) conflating the topic - or reducing the entire question to - morality. If you'd bothered, at all, to read the entire thread you'd have seen that's NOT what's under discussion.

    2+2 is not an opinion as it stands as truth of a sort, abeit confined to a certain math system and not an opinion.
    Oh wait, right and wrong are opinions but 2+2=4 is right and [therefore?] NOT an opinion.
    How does that work?

    "Unsupported bullock" is an opinon
    No, it's a fact.
    (And you really should learn to read and/ or spell. The word I used was "bollocks" not "bullock").

    The difference of opinion lies more with the Admins and mods here who like to ban me for speaking my mind, but not ban you for doing the same as I do. See? This I can call wrong, as I believe in Freedom of expression, but that is my own moral judgment, not a truth or a fact, but to me it has self worth, which I feel we each must manufacture for ourselves out of - guess what? - Personal integrity.
    More bollocks.

    Having your head cut off is conducive to a long life. Right or wrong? Opinion or not?
    High dosages of ricin improve your IQ. Right or wrong? Opinion or not?
    Lead is less dense than water. Right or wrong? Opinion or not?
    Humans are born after 3 years' gestation and are 25 feet long when birthed. Right or wrong? Opinion or not?
    Having less money coming into the house/ family means you can afford to buy much more expensive stuff. Right or wrong? Opinion or not?
    Etc.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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