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Thread: The Satisfaction of Knowing You're Right

  1. #101  
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    Like I said, and I am the one that gets banned.
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  2. #102  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    Like I said, and I am the one that gets banned.
    Yep, because you post unsupported (and largely anti-scientific) bollocks and then complain, rather than correct your position, when you get called on it.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Your scientific approach is escaping me.
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  4. #104  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    From the *cough* quality of your posts any scientific approach escapes you.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    I feel utterly miserable when wrong. When I win debates, I usually look back only to find gaps in my reasoning that the interlocutor merely failed to address, and thus feel miserable
    Interesting.

    Most debates in my experience had little to do with reasoning, but a lot more to do with quick witted responses, connecting to the audience and playing their emotions. For this reason debates are seldom used in science, because more often than not they don't lead to the best answers.

    --

    On a side note, it would be nice to log into this forum for a day or two without finding an active thread completely derailed by petty bickering. Yes, I get caught in them as well...but I'm asking we all take a deep breath before we go into auto attack mode because someone we don't like has posted.
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  6. #106  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    Like I said, and I am the one that gets banned.
    It is time someone gave Dywyddr some time off. When was the last time he said anything scientific?
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    I never saw him say something scientific, but I don't want him banned. That banning stuff does not play fair and it impedes freedom of expression.
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  8. #108  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    I never saw him say something scientific
    That would be a lie.
    You queried that once before and were given a link.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob
    It is time someone gave Dywyddr some time off. When was the last time he said anything scientific?
    I see. You ask for me to be banned yet apparently have zero problem with Mayflow posting un/anti-scientific crap.
    (And you really should read more of my posts if you think I don't post any science).
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  9. #109  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    I never saw him say something scientific
    That would be a lie.
    You queried that once before and were given a link.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob
    It is time someone gave Dywyddr some time off. When was the last time he said anything scientific?
    I see. You ask for me to be banned yet apparently have zero problem with Mayflow posting un/anti-scientific crap.
    (And you really should read more of my posts if you think I don't post any science).
    OK I went and saw a couple of recent post bordering on science. So I might have been a bit harsh, but you must admit your forte is critique rather than substance. I wasn't asking for you to be banned but just given a couple of days for you to calm down and come back happy and refreshed (not grumpy any more)!
    I will correct Mayflow too if she needs it.
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  10. #110  
    Anti-Crank AlexG's Avatar
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    I will correct Mayflow too if she needs it.
    Egotistical idiot.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    I will correct Mayflow too if she needs it.
    Egotistical idiot.
    Didn't you read The Satisfaction of Knowing You're Right
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  12. #112  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    OK I went and saw a couple of recent post bordering on science. So I might have been a bit harsh, but you must admit your forte is critique rather than substance.


    I wasn't asking for you to be banned but just given a couple of days for you to calm down and come back happy and refreshed (not grumpy any more)!
    I will correct Mayflow too if she needs it.
    And, as already noted, you don't ask for a few days off for Mayflow when not only does she not post science but persists in posting anti-scientific crap.
    Hypocrisy?
    Blind spot?
    Siding with a fellow woolly-minded woo monger?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Forum Professor astromark's Avatar
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    ~ One of the methods I find as supported is this; 'To admit to a weakness of argument or openly declare a error and to be told as said..
    ~ I may well be wrong..~ Does not hurt..' and you may get told you are right.. in being wrong.. It can be turned around..
    But then of coarse..I may be just wrong.. see....?

    ~ and I know I am right..~ Take off the hat that has 'Ego' written on it.. It's ugly..
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  14. #114  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    OK I went and saw a couple of recent post bordering on science. So I might have been a bit harsh, but you must admit your forte is critique rather than substance.


    I wasn't asking for you to be banned but just given a couple of days for you to calm down and come back happy and refreshed (not grumpy any more)!
    I will correct Mayflow too if she needs it.
    And, as already noted, you don't ask for a few days off for Mayflow when not only does she not post science but persists in posting anti-scientific crap.
    Hypocrisy?
    Blind spot?
    Siding with a fellow woolly-minded woo monger?
    Don't tell fibs. All I asked for was you guys to give her a couple of days to calm down after her suspension.
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  15. #115  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Don't tell fibs. All I asked for was you guys to give her a couple of days to calm down after her suspension.
    Whut?
    Did you even read MY post or do you just invent something and then reply to that?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    The last time I was given "time off" was by Harold for posting "anti-scientific stuff" like Alcubierre drive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and ITER - the way to new energy and I stand my my predictions that one day we will be able to warp space and have personal nuclear fusion energy sources - maybe not in this personal lifetime, but the future is coming. Of course the "brilliant Harold" called it woo AND BANNED ME FOR THIS, because I don't speak woo. Now if you will excuse me, Germany finally scored a goal -can Argentina come back?
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  17. #117  
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    Remember this?
    On a side note, it would be nice to log into this forum for a day or two without finding an active thread completely derailed by petty bickering. Yes, I get caught in them as well...but I'm asking we all take a deep breath before we go into auto attack mode because someone we don't like has posted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    The last time I was given "time off" was by Harold for posting "anti-scientific stuff" like Alcubierre drive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and ITER - the way to new energy and I stand my my predictions that one day we will be able to warp space and have personal nuclear fusion energy sources - maybe not in this personal lifetime, but the future is coming. Of course the "brilliant Harold" called it woo AND BANNED ME FOR THIS, because I don't speak woo. Now if you will excuse me, Germany finally scored a goal -can Argentina come back?
    If I recall correctly, you posted that on the physics sub-forum after being requested not to do so. We like to keep the woo separated from the physics.
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  19. #119  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Yes, Zinny, the GODDESS has spoken!

    Tweaking on Sir Ducky's feathers again!
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  20. #120  
    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    OK I went and saw a couple of recent post bordering on science. So I might have been a bit harsh, but you must admit your forte is critique rather than substance. I wasn't asking for you to be banned but just given a couple of days for you to calm down and come back happy and refreshed (not grumpy any more)!
    Critique is a most valid function of a science forum and in my estimation, Dywyddyr is more accurate than most in his comments and remarks as well as posting references within his own responses.

    cri·tique

    noun \krə-ˈtēk, kri-\ : a careful judgment in which you give your opinion about the good and bad parts of something (such as a piece of writing or a work of art)
    Critique - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

    'Happy' is a frame of mind that even science is not fully aware of the manner in which it is achieved. There are several chemical reactions within the human body which seem to trigger the emotion we call happiness and not all persons have the same receptors in the same numbers for these chemicals. Happiness is variable and subjective and not possible to be accurately defined and measured to date.

    A bit of a fun link on the topic of happiness. Note the range of comments and critiques that follow the piece.

    The Scientific Facts of Happiness You Never Knew
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  21. #121  
    Forum Masters Degree DianeG's Avatar
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    I always thought that the difference between opinions and facts was that was the addition of value to the assertion. Facts are assertions that can be observed, measured and verified by others - the distance to the moon. Opinions can be supported by facts, but also include judgements of value or preference - something is good, bad, too risky, worth while, wasteful, beautiful, fun, not my cup of tea.

    One of my all time favorite quotes is "Reasonable people with good intentions can still disagree over matters of substance." And where they tend to disagree is either disputing the accuracy of supporting facts/statistics, or how much they value something.
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    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    One can always find facts that prove them right, in any area.....and others that can prove those wrong, and I am speaking in generic terms....

    So opinions and facts can be based on what you research per you desire for you to be right!!
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    Actually, I think Einstein said something similar about the results of any experiments being the outcome of whatever the experimentors arew looking for. Given some of the results of quantum physics, this may be more true than he thought.
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    Einstein said that? Well it would be pretty ironic if he did, given the strange and unexpected ramifications of relativity.

    One of my favorite science stories is Brownian movement. Botanist Robert Brown was studying the movement of particles in pollen grains and thought he perhaps he had discovered some mysterious elan vital or life force common to all living things. But then he observed it non living particles, and realized that idea was wrong. But while his initial theory was wrong, his data was good - his facts were right - , and quite useful to Einstein. According to wikipedia " Atoms and molecules had long been theorized as the constituents of matter, and many decades later, Albert Einstein published a paper in 1905 that explained in precise detail how the motion that Brown had observed was a result of the pollen being moved by individual water molecules. This explanation of Brownian motion served as definitive confirmation that atoms and molecules actually exist.." It is his most cited paper to date.

    So I'm not sure that you can just select any bunch of facts to prove anything you want or expect. Integrity is realizing and acknowledging when they don't.
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  25. #125  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    I was mostly thinking of circumstances where correcting somebody might be a little socially awkward. Like correcting somebody on something related to their profession, or correcting somebody when they've gone too deep into a rabbit hole when it isn't necessary. Being right is great... But for me I really dislike it when it's at someone else's expense. In a real life social situation I'd only correct somebody if it was important, and even then I'd give every opportunity for them to save face if they felt the need to do so. I guess sometimes I feel like being knowledgeable about something can come off as a mixture of condescension and flaunting, which is why I sometimes feel uncomfortable being right when it means someone else is wrong... I know I'm right and will feel good about that either way, no need to point out why someone else is wrong if it isn't important. Know what I mean?
    Ah, but what's important?
    To use your examples:
    if it's their profession surely that means it's important, to them at the very least. (After all if they continue under a misapprehension in the job how far could it spread? How long will they stay employed? What's the effect fed down to customers?)
    gone too deep into the rabbit hole? Um, the sooner you get out of the rabbit hole the better, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    I completely get where you are coming from. Going out of one's way to find fault with others is a serious character flaw in itself and demonstrates a lack of self confidence, in my opinion.
    Hmm, when you know a lot you don't have to "go out of your way". Errors are visible all the time. (To borrow from Lynne Truss). They jump up and wave at you.

    Let's reverse it: someone makes an error and you don't correct them.
    That means that
    A) you don't care enough about facts/ correctness/ getting things right to do anything about, and, by corollary,
    B) they don't care enough about what they're doing to be bothered to find out if what they're saying/ doing/ promoting is correct.

    Promote sloppiness, let errors slide!

    Along the lines of something I read recently (that was more about social injustices): what you walk past you tacitly condone.
    Late to my response here... Haven't had much time for the forum this month.

    You got me there Dyw, in hindsight the profession example was pretty bad. I can't recall what specific example I was thinking of with this, but I think it was something along the lines of a situation where somebody in a profession is wrong about some obscure thing that is related to their field of study, but unrelated to their area they work in.

    As for rabbit holes... Well, sometimes I have no problem letting someone stay in Wonderland. I guess that can be a bit of a bad attitude. Let's just say there are contexts where I think correcting someone matters, and contexts where I don't think it matters. Then again, it's entirely possible that I'm trying to rationalize my tendency to be a little meek.
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
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  26. #126  
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    The big problem with real rabbit holes is there is no real way to tell where they go until you fully excavate them.
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  27. #127  
    Bullshit Intolerant PhDemon's Avatar
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    But 9 times out of 10 (especially with the nuts we get here) even with the bare minimum of shovel work the destination is cranksville...
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  28. #128  
    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    I completely get where you are coming from. Going out of one's way to find fault with others is a serious character flaw in itself and demonstrates a lack of self confidence, in my opinion.
    Hmm, when you know a lot you don't have to "go out of your way". Errors are visible all the time. (To borrow from Lynne Truss). They jump up and wave at you.

    Let's reverse it: someone makes an error and you don't correct them.
    That means that
    A) you don't care enough about facts/ correctness/ getting things right to do anything about, and, by corollary,
    B) they don't care enough about what they're doing to be bothered to find out if what they're saying/ doing/ promoting is correct.

    Promote sloppiness, let errors slide!

    Along the lines of something I read recently (that was more about social injustices): what you walk past you tacitly condone.
    Without knowing the circumstances of when/where I might intervene with a correction, perhaps you read too much into the need for absolute accuracy in all things. I believe there may be a name for such a condition. Among my mentors there is a fellow who believes that there is merit in allowing people to learn from their own mistakes, as long as others are not put in harm's way by the doing.
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  29. #129  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Without knowing the circumstances of when/where I might intervene with a correction, perhaps you read too much into the need for absolute accuracy in all things.
    Dunno about "absolute accuracy", but "as accurate as possible" is nice.

    I believe there may be a name for such a condition.
    Dywyddyrism?

    Among my mentors there is a fellow who believes that there is merit in allowing people to learn from their own mistakes, as long as others are not put in harm's way by the doing.
    The problem is that when someone makes an "error" how do you tell whether it's an error (actual lack of knowledge/ understanding) or simply a "near enough" attitude?
    I'm thinking here, specifically, of posters who make claims/ statements that are in fact erroneous because they're talking well outside their zone of competence but, on first glance, appear to be approximately correct.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    I make errors, but not on purpose. If someone points out my inaccuracies, it does not offend me, if they do it in a polite way.

    *plucking Sir Duckin Ducky*
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  31. #131  
    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    When I contemplate the 'satisfaction of knowing I am right', I have been speaking to my experiences in the three dimensional world more than on this forum. I occasionally point out spelling errors or ask for more detail but I seldom engage in attempts to change the opinions of others beyond bringing more information to the table for discussion. People must come to their own realizations, in my opinion and experience, and they do not 'learn' until they are ready. I cannot tell you how many times my riding students came to me months or years later, proudly sharing what they had learned when it was something I had taught them previously yet they had not completely assimilated at the time. Even my other students have remarked to me, "How can you let them credit others for what you taught them?", to which I reply, it matters not who gets the credit as long as horses receive the benefit. We are all students and teachers in this journey.

    I far prefer having a personal moment of comprehension and understanding rather than engaging in "I'm right and you are wrong" dialogues.
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  32. #132  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    But 9 times out of 10 (especially with the nuts we get here) even with the bare minimum of shovel work the destination is cranksville...
    What is there to say except that some rabbit holes are very shallow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    But 9 times out of 10 (especially with the nuts we get here) even with the bare minimum of shovel work the destination is cranksville...
    What is there to say except that some rabbit holes are very shallow.
    Meaning?
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  34. #134  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    But 9 times out of 10 (especially with the nuts we get here) even with the bare minimum of shovel work the destination is cranksville...
    What is there to say except that some rabbit holes are very shallow.
    Meaning?
    That you don't have to dig very deep to get to the bottom of them.

    It is the deep rabbit holes that are interesting. Historically they brought us out in locations we never expected to be.
    Most of the great advances would have been considered heresy by the established scientists of the time. When Newton applied his laws of motion to celestial mechanics it required the invention of a force working at a distance, we call it gravity and it seems natural now. However it went against the firmly established ideas about cause and effect that existed then.
    Einstein threw away the idea of a Luminiferous Aether and gave us a warped time-space continuum in its place.
    Bohr gave us quantum mechanics with determinism replaced by probability theory, a concept so "woo-like" that even Einstein wanted to deny it was possible.

    So some rabbit holes lead to good things even though the vast majority are dead ends. The shallow ones are easy, because as PhDemon says, they can be eliminated with minimal exploration.
    QM and GR are very deep rabbit holes and have demanded an extreme amount of digging for over a century with no end to them in sight yet, but lots of interesting things unearthed as we dig.
    There is no telling how deep the String, M, or Brane theories will be yet because the rabbits have only started to dig their holes there.
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  35. #135  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    But 9 times out of 10 (especially with the nuts we get here) even with the bare minimum of shovel work the destination is cranksville...
    What is there to say except that some rabbit holes are very shallow.
    Meaning?
    That you don't have to dig very deep to get to the bottom of them.

    It is the deep rabbit holes that are interesting. Historically they brought us out in locations we never expected to be.
    Most of the great advances would have been considered heresy by the established scientists of the time. When Newton applied his laws of motion to celestial mechanics it required the invention of a force working at a distance, we call it gravity and it seems natural now. However it went against the firmly established ideas about cause and effect that existed then.
    Einstein threw away the idea of a Luminiferous Aether and gave us a warped time-space continuum in its place.
    Bohr gave us quantum mechanics with determinism replaced by probability theory, a concept so "woo-like" that even Einstein wanted to deny it was possible.

    So some rabbit holes lead to good things even though the vast majority are dead ends. The shallow ones are easy, because as PhDemon says, they can be eliminated with minimal exploration.
    QM and GR are very deep rabbit holes and have demanded an extreme amount of digging for over a century with no end to them in sight yet, but lots of interesting things unearthed as we dig.
    There is no telling how deep the String, M, or Brane theories will be yet because the rabbits have only started to dig their holes there.
    OK the analogy works strangely enough.
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  36. #136  
    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    Nicely explained, dan hunter.
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  37. #137  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    I am not always right....sometimes I am totally right, and sometimes partially right.

    I am not perfect.

    This sucks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Had a good day today. A couple of high priced business executives were telling me about how they had, through careful analysis, come up with a guaranteed cost cutting procedure in the shipping department of where they were employed. After listening to their solution it took me about 5 minutes to point out the error of their ways and that in fact their new procedure would cost more than the old. They countered with some nonsense about the work, the processes, paperwork and the equipment etc., how they figured things out and so on. So much so that I finally had to say they had no idea what actually goes on in that department. None of them had ever worked in a shipping capacity at any time. Neither have I but I know people who have. Anyway, to make a long story short, they eventually capitulated to my logic. Back to the drawing board for those guys plus they have to explain it to their bosses. Felt a bit sorry for them but I sure felt the rush of self satisfaction.

    When you're right, is the natural reaction to gloat or feel pride? Oh I wanted to rub it in more than I did to those poor buggers but they were feeling like shit. So the opposite is true when you know you're wrong. Being wrong is a hard thing to admit. Hell, we see it here everyday. Trouble is some can't ever admit a mistake. However, there is more of a self-admiring vanity present when you know you've just pulled one out of the hat and made the other guy look stupid. Why do we take so much pleasure from being right?
    I don't care if I'm wrong....I'm human, I can't always be right.
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  39. #139  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forbez View Post
    I don't care if I'm wrong....I'm human, I can't always be right.
    If you don't care then is it necessary to tell us why? If you can't always be right then you could be wrong about not caring.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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