Thread: Jealousy

Ah, the green eyed monster as it is known by some.

Why do people get jealous? Why and how does it manifest and could it be classed as a mental illness?

Your thoughts please.

There are many forms of it so could you pick one out to discuss or do you want to discuss all of them?

Originally Posted by cosmictraveler

There are many forms of it so could you pick one out to discuss or do you want to discuss all of them?

I don't do things by halves, so, open it up and discuss it all.

Share experiences if you like.

I am jealous of the Americans who landed on the moon.

Originally Posted by RedPanda

I am jealous of the Americans who landed on the moon.

You missed out on that experiment.

Never mind, why not put yourself forward as a candidate for the mission to put man on the solar surface?

er.. no. it's an emotion, and not a mental illness.

I think it's normal, and no emotion is wrong or bad.

Originally Posted by RedPanda

I am jealous of the Americans who landed on the moon.

Jealousy for the replacement of someone for yourself. Jealousy is mainly based on human relationships. Someone withdrawing attentive energy and giving it to someone else.

Originally Posted by sarnamluvu

er.. no. it's an emotion, and not a mental illness.

I think it's normal, and no emotion is wrong or bad.

No emotion is wrong or bad? Ok, what if the jealousy caused upset in others?

But that's the action itself, not the emotion.

And it's complex, in my opinion at the least. If a person is goading another with their success, then IMO they can't complain if others resent them.

Originally Posted by sarnamluvu

But that's the action itself, not the emotion.

And it's complex, in my opinion at the least. If a person is goading another with their success, then IMO they can't complain if others resent them.

I see what you mean. The emotion itself is not bad but the knock on effects it has on others is.

Although, what about the detrimental effects to the person who is carrying the jealousy?

depends. i think we all have to develop means to handle/manage emotions, whether good or bad ones. say if somebody is angry, doesn't mean they must rant and rave any time something annoys them.

Originally Posted by sarnamluvu

depends. i think we all have to develop means to handle/manage emotions, whether good or bad ones. say if somebody is angry, doesn't mean they must rant and rave any time something annoys them.

That depends also.

If someone is angry because they they have been shafted or nobody wants to listen, it can have very dangerous consequences. Some even go out and kill.

maybe. even still, as said it's complex and i guess depends on the situation.

Originally Posted by RedPanda

I am jealous of the Americans who landed on the moon.

Sure if you ask Buzz nicely, he'd take you...

Originally Posted by sarnamluvu

Originally Posted by RedPanda

I am jealous of the Americans who landed on the moon.

Sure if you ask Buzz nicely, he'd take you...

I must admit, I'm fascinated by space but I wouldn't want to go there.

I am satisfied with admiring and respecting it from here.

If Jealousy makes someone act irrational or rather out of the norm thinking , then, can we say that it is a mental illness? or do we say it has triggered mental illness ?

What do we define as mental illness? can a changed thought pattern of a negative kind be classed as a mental illness?

i guess normal is subjective, as is rationality. IMO, that's not controversial thinking since it's normal in the UK to drink alcohol in public but in Saudi Arabia it's not. how humans think and behave is different too, even in the same situation.

Originally Posted by sarnamluvu

i guess normal is subjective, as is rationality. IMO, that's not controversial thinking since it's normal in the UK to drink alcohol in public but in Saudi Arabia it's not. how humans think and behave is different too, even in the same situation.

You missed the question.

What is the basic principle for mental illness to be labelled as such? There must be one?

A competent and self-confident person is incapable of jealousy in anything. Jealousy is invariably a symptom of neurotic insecurity.
Robert A. Heinlein

He that is jealous is not in love.
Saint Augustine


Jealousy is, I think, the worst of all faults because it makes a victim of both parties.
Gene Tierney


The truest mark of being born with great qualities is being born without envy. ~Francois Duc de la Rochefoucauld

Jealously is a side effect of the instinct for survival. It reflects recognition of a weakness or danger. If this generates a positive reaction then that is beneficial to the subject.

Cosmic traveller

Thank you.

I believe jealousy can be a symptom of insecurity.

Originally Posted by John Galt

Jealously is a side effect of the instinct for survival. It reflects recognition of a weakness or danger. If this generates a positive reaction then that is beneficial to the subject.

The survival element is an interesting one. I hadn't considered that.

You cant class it as a mental illness because it is context driven. Anything that changes depending on the social interaction is not a mental illness. There are some people who would argue (and quite convincingly I think) that there is no such thing as mental illness full stop - see Thomas Sasz - The Myth of Mental Illness.

Originally Posted by hannah40

Never mind, why not put yourself forward as a candidate for the mission to put man on the solar surface?

But it could never compete with your own achievement of being the world's first brain donor.

Originally Posted by RedPanda

But it could never compete with your own achievement of being the world's first brain donor.

That would hurt two people.

Other animals are jealous, or act as if they were, as in mate guarding or territorial behavior, etc. so I wouldn't call it abnormal or pathological, just really unpleasant.

Jealous? I'm not inclined to envy or jealousy, but I was once married to someone who was (long long ago).

Jealousy as an emotion is not very nice, but if someone can learn to live with it until the feeling goes away then it's pretty harmless. The big problem with what we call jealousy is all of its ugly companions.

People that we describe as jealous are a lot more than just jealous. They're suspicious and nasty, constantly looking for an excuse, any excuse no matter how feeble, to arouse that feeling in themselves. They often engage in stalking behaviour so they can observe things that justify their lurking suspicion that they have something to be "jealous" about. Once they identify a word, a facial expression or an interaction as confirmation of the suspicion they then have an excuse to throw accusations around and to lose their temper and to "act out" in their own preferred way. Some people do that no speaking thing, others use their fists, some manage to do both.

In my view "could it be classed as a mental illness" should be rephrased. It's more that if anyone observing the person can classify their behaviour or their attitude as "jealous", what is driving that behaviour to the extreme that it's no longer a feeling but a way of life or a way of relating to people? That could be a mental illness or a personality disorder of some kind. Of course, in most cases, it's a person who's just nasty and this is the way their nastiness is expressed.

Originally Posted by adelady

Jealous? I'm not inclined to envy or jealousy, but I was once married to someone who was (long long ago).

Jealousy as an emotion is not very nice, but if someone can learn to live with it until the feeling goes away then it's pretty harmless. The big problem with what we call jealousy is all of its ugly companions.

People that we describe as jealous are a lot more than just jealous. They're suspicious and nasty, constantly looking for an excuse, any excuse no matter how feeble, to arouse that feeling in themselves. They often engage in stalking behaviour so they can observe things that justify their lurking suspicion that they have something to be "jealous" about. Once they identify a word, a facial expression or an interaction as confirmation of the suspicion they then have an excuse to throw accusations around and to lose their temper and to "act out" in their own preferred way. Some people do that no speaking thing, others use their fists, some manage to do both.

In my view "could it be classed as a mental illness" should be rephrased. It's more that if anyone observing the person can classify their behaviour or their attitude as "jealous", what is driving that behaviour to the extreme that it's no longer a feeling but a way of life or a way of relating to people? That could be a mental illness or a personality disorder of some kind. Of course, in most cases, it's a person who's just nasty and this is the way their nastiness is expressed.

Some studies suggest that the connection between jealousy and personal disorder may have to do with whether a person values control in relationships more than commitment. In other words, the threat to them is the lack of power over the other person, and possible humiliation, not the loss of the relationship itself.

In other words, the threat to them is the lack of power over the other person, and possible humiliation, not the loss of the relationship itself.

Sounds about right. When you're dealing with it directly, it really looks like a classic self-defeating, own-goal strategy. You say you want the relationship, but all your behaviour and attitudes do is ensure it must end.

But if the drive is the feeling of control or power over another person, in that precise moment, then the long-term issue of how the relationship can possibly continue must slip into the background.

It's a sort of toddler/ teenager approach to the world. Also well-known for self-defeating behaviour, but at least those conditions are temporary.

Originally Posted by LuciDreaming

You cant class it as a mental illness because it is context driven. Anything that changes depending on the social interaction is not a mental illness. There are some people who would argue (and quite convincingly I think) that there is no such thing as mental illness full stop - see Thomas Sasz - The Myth of Mental Illness.

Jealousy could be seen as a short lived act that makes people act, think, feel in a way they wouldn't normally feel.

I'm thinking of the phrase 'Temporary insanity'.?

Would it fit that descriptive? If not, why not?

I'm thinking of the phrase 'Temporary insanity'.?

Would it fit that descriptive? If not, why not?

Nuh. It's a copout, much the same as people who claim they were "provoked" to assault or murder an intimate partner by spoken words.

My own experience and that of other women I've known and read about is that the "fit of jealousy" is something that suspicious, stalking type of people work themselves into. Much as we more commonly see some people work themselves up into a rage. You can watch it happen.

And there's nothing temporary nor insane about it.

Originally Posted by hannah40

Originally Posted by LuciDreaming

You cant class it as a mental illness because it is context driven. Anything that changes depending on the social interaction is not a mental illness. There are some people who would argue (and quite convincingly I think) that there is no such thing as mental illness full stop - see Thomas Sasz - The Myth of Mental Illness.

Jealousy could be seen as a short lived act that makes people act, think, feel in a way they wouldn't normally feel.

I'm thinking of the phrase 'Temporary insanity'.?

Would it fit that descriptive? If not, why not?

Jealousy itself isnt an act though - its a feeling. What it spurs people to do can be diverse some people can work themselves into a frenzy and do stupid things and some can sit down and calmly plan their next course of action. Either way jealousy itself is not insanity, temporary or otherwise.

Originally Posted by LuciDreaming

Jealousy itself isnt an act though - its a feeling. What it spurs people to do can be diverse some people can work themselves into a frenzy and do stupid things and some can sit down and calmly plan their next course of action.

Thanks. I sometimes got jealous of how adept one of my workmates was at getting up in front of a group, say at a meeting. It didn't send me into a rage. In fact I tried to emulate some of his abilities. Many times in my life I was jealous or envied the abilities of others and it spurred me to be better myself. I didn't always succeed, of course.

Either way jealousy itself is not insanity, temporary or otherwise.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by RedPanda

I am jealous of the Americans who landed on the moon.

You could be the first Ailurus fulgens on the moon?

Originally Posted by shlunka

You could be the first Ailurus fulgens on the moon?

Only my mother calls me by my full name - and then only when I have done something wrong.

er...lol.. how can any emotion be a mental illness?

The medical definition, whilst not 100% as psychiatry is not an exact science, is good enough for me.

any action or thought/feeling that leads to emotional distress or relational maladjustment is a mental illness. And yes, one can be distressed be envy, but so what? feeling sad from berevement, not seeing one's gf for a week, etc. cause persons distress, but they're not illnesses. Envy can cause people to do bad things, as can hatred, and? people who even kill based on hatred are not mentally ill per se, it's silly to presume as such (show me in psychiatric canon where neo-Nazis convicted of hate crimes are mentally ill by sole virtue of their crime? not many, I'd wager...)

People may balk, but then humanity is an immensely complex species, so even if somebody does something "not normal or healthy" it's impossible to quantify "normal". Normality in 200 years time may be not to kill animals for food, since we can artifically make good tasting steaks, pork chops, or lamb roasts.

Originally Posted by hannah40

Originally Posted by LuciDreaming

You cant class it as a mental illness because it is context driven. Anything that changes depending on the social interaction is not a mental illness. There are some people who would argue (and quite convincingly I think) that there is no such thing as mental illness full stop - see Thomas Sasz - The Myth of Mental Illness.

Jealousy could be seen as a short lived act that makes people act, think, feel in a way they wouldn't normally feel.

I'm thinking of the phrase 'Temporary insanity'.?

Would it fit that descriptive? If not, why not?

er.. it's human nature.

If person A is doing better than person B, then person B may get envious. humans covet, despite "the Bible" or whichever book saying it's wrong.

It may not seem rational, so what? humans are not absolutely, this is common knowledge (emotion and logic are of equal value and logical actions are not inherently better than emotive ones...)

Also, is somebody envious of you?

If so, so what? it's cliche, but the only person you can truly control is yourself. ALL emotions are valid, emotions cannot be good or bad (these labels never exist).

If somebody is jealous of you, ignore it. If they hurt you, move yourself from them.

Originally Posted by LuciDreaming

You cant class it as a mental illness because it is context driven. Anything that changes depending on the social interaction is not a mental illness. There are some people who would argue (and quite convincingly I think) that there is no such thing as mental illness full stop - see Thomas Sasz - The Myth of Mental Illness.

So if a person has a condition making them constantly sad, angry, or happy, and this affects their quality of life, then this is not worthy of treatment?

Look, most contemporary psychiatrists don't think "acting beyond the norm" is a condition. normal is subjective, and if you want to smoke drugs, have kinky sex or do ANYTHING that doesn't cause you distress or impair social functioning, go ahead. The world is free...

Originally Posted by sarnamluvu

Also, is somebody envious of you?

If so, so what? it's cliche, but the only person you can truly control is yourself. ALL emotions are valid, emotions cannot be good or bad (these labels never exist).

If somebody is jealous of you, ignore it. If they hurt you, move yourself from them.

I'm not aware of anyone being envious but as for someone hurting me. Yes and I have left well alone my only wish is that they and their oppressors do the same.

Oh, and start telling the truth about their actions. Sooner or later consequence will come knocking. Unfortunately it isn't nice when it starts affecting their families too.