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Thread: Is trust earned or learned?

  1. #101  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    In my observation, neverfly's delivery, not unlike that of a certain duck, is frequently a bit 'challenging' and is becoming somewhat more understandable to me by what these individuals have posted on a number of other threads. The line of questioning that they bring to these discussions does have the value of provoking one to examine other perspectives beyond the one of the present emotion and moment.

    Laters all...time to dash...
    i agree, but that type of 'delivery' has never worked with me. bosses, relationships, friends...anyone who talks AT me, i tend to not hear the message. doesn't have to be candy coated, but tact goes a long way.

    i'm heading to bed too...holy cow, it's late here. 0_o

    Thanks for chatting with me ladies & gents.
    Same here. It is an instant OFF button. Believe me, in theatre you get "notes" and they are given IN FRONT of your fellow actors, so I am not a wilting flower, but tact and delivery, make a huge difference in my response to people.

    Have a good evening...Aloha nui loa and hui hou
    yep...

    truth is too...that it takes just as much energy to get a message across in a tactful way (that has the potential of breeding more discussion) as it does to berate/insult someone. (that has the potential of closing down further discussion)

    just speaking in generalities...not about anyone here.

    i might add a discalimer to my signature. ;=)
    Also in generalities, but I do apply it to all aspects of my life.

    You are correct. It is better to respond with tact, to keep lines of communication open in life in general.....
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    I don't agree with any of you. If your foot is on fire, I won't be tactful in yelling, "Your foot is on fire." If you seem to need to know, you seem to need to know. Placing the full blame on another person if you choose not to listen- whether because you dislike a truth, opinion, delivery, word or otherwise is failing to account for your own choices and even, responsibilities. It's a great cop out for not having to deal with what was said. "Yeah, I'm not going to acknowledge your points or argument because I dislike the waayyy you said it." Pluh. Whatever.
    The onus is not on everyone else to speak to you in the manner in which you demand that they do. If anything, the onus is on any of us to Listen objectively.
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  3. #103  
    ...matter and pixie dust wegs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    I don't agree with any of you. If your foot is on fire, I won't be tactful in yelling, "Your foot is on fire." If you seem to need to know, you seem to need to know. Placing the full blame on another person if you choose not to listen- whether because you dislike a truth, opinion, delivery, word or otherwise is failing to account for your own choices and even, responsibilities. It's a great cop out for not having to deal with what was said. "Yeah, I'm not going to acknowledge your points are argument because I dislike the waayyy you said it." Pluh. Whatever.
    The onus is not on everyone else to speak to you in the manner in which you demand that they do. If anything, the onus is on any of us to Listen objectively.
    Then, I guess it's safe to assume you didn't really want to know how to ''improve,'' when you asked your question earlier of how you insulted me.
    Why did you ask then?

    And no one's feet are on fire, here. lol Likewise, your reply here is analogous to a cop out, for not taking responsiblity for sounding rude. Rudeness isn't necessary. You have options. lol

    ''Oh, that's just the way so and so is...but he means well.'' Pluh, whatever. << using your words.

    Thing is this. It's entirely up to the individual. But, the person that individual is insulting, has the option of tuning out. And then, what did the person who talked in a condescending tone REALLY accomplish?

    Some might cowtow down, but I just walk away. lol My teachers throughout school and college didn't berate me to get me to understand math, history, science, and english. And I managed to learn, nonetheless!

    Change isn't easy. For anyone, neverfly. Just sayin'. ;=)
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  4. #104  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Then, I guess it's safe to assume you didn't really want to know how to ''improve,'' when you asked your question earlier of how you insulted me.
    Why did you ask then?
    Learning about what bothered you and considering ways of avoiding it are one thing- Accepting the full onus to speak in how you wish for me to speak is entirely another.
    I will meet someone half-way- but I won't walk it for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Likewise, your reply here is analogous to a cop out, for not taking responsiblity for sounding rude. Rudeness isn't necessary. You have options.
    I do not avoid what others may perceive as rudeness when dishing out what I perceive is something that they need to hear. In order to remove any possibility that they can claim they find it offensive- I would have to say nothing at all, in some instances.
    So screw that- no one is granted the "right" to go through life unoffended.
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    ''Oh, that's just the way so and so is...but he means well.'' Pluh, whatever. << using your words.
    Well, we could go another way...
    There's a guy I work with that has a huge ugly mole on the end of his nose.
    I guess I could ignore everything he says because I dislike the melanoma protruding off the end of his face.

    Except that that is nonsense.

    Me consdiering friendlier overtones is a different thing from me pandering to your ego just to express an Idea. If it's a requirement to pander to your ego to discuss issues- I won't bother.
    We're not here to be friends, Wegs.
    We're on here to Debate and Hash Out Issues.
    That is not always a friendly things- so you can thicken your skin up enough to Not Require Others to speak as you wish for them to and take things in stride or you can continue to complain about how several of us have "offended" you. Such as myself or Dave Wilson or Red Panda.
    Problem is, while any of us can TRY to be a little nicer, we're not obligated to if you're easily offended.
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Change isn't easy. For anyone, neverfly. Just sayin'. ;=)
    Not for any of us. But claiming that you felt berated doesn't mean you were berated. And even if you were berated- it's also possible that you had it coming and while you can declare some "right" to resist it- you're also failing to accomplish learning by your own stubborn resistance.
    Now, you can claim I just insulted you by saying stubborn- but if the shoe fits- The Shoe Fits and it actually takes an honest and true friend to really Tell You what you need to hear even knowing that you might get upset and jump all over their case for doing it.
    Anyone else, may not care about your perceptions, learning curve, life concerns or dating issues enough to bother telling you and risking the sharp edge of your tongue.

    You're a good poster, Wegs and in a short time, you've made an impression with your personable posts and very interesting commentary. You're a likeable personality on the board and more civil than some such as myself. But this isn't a sociable or friend-making setting- it's a debate hall. You need to toughen up (And so do I, really.)
    In this- the choice really is yours as to how my words will impact you.
    I do not want to cause you angst or har,m nor do I dislike you (in fact, I think you're a good poster) or wish you any ill will, either. But I'm not going to walk on eggshells for you.

    "Babe" and I started out as friends on here as well. But once I started challenging her crank anti-science beliefs, she decided I was too much of a meanie poo poo head for not accepting her ducking and dodging with a sweet smile. My response?: "Too Bad." I stand for Science and for Debate On This Board and that won't change when someone skins their knee. So while in another setting where it is appropriate, I might be kind and caring and kiss the boo boo on the knee- Here, you are expected to stand up, brush yourself off and get back into the fight.
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  5. #105  
    ...matter and pixie dust wegs's Avatar
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    My thoughts:

    1) You put words in my mouth, a lot--or fabricate things I've said. ie: your first comment back to me in post #104. I never said any of that. You said it, make it look like I said it, and then argue your points, back to me. But, I never said it. lol I'm sure you are a treat with the game of 'telephone.'

    2) Being contrary for the sake of being contrary -- sometimes you do this. Is this a debate 'strategy?' Or, is this merely your 'idea' of debate?

    3) I'm well aware of what debate is and isn't...and aware that this site is about debate. Healthy debate, that is.

    4) I don't have much of an ego; I try to be humble (fail many a time), but that's all I can say about that, really.

    5) You don't need to walk on eggshells. No one expects that, honestly.

    6) If I say someone berated me, more often than not, it is true. I'm not overly sensitive, or imagining it. And...I don't say something at the first sighting of it, actually. I often wait to see if it's a pattern with someone, or an isolated thing. I'm not a softie, I've been through a lot in my life...but I still manage to deliver a message with tact. The reason is because it fosters fruitful discussion. This may not be your thinking, which is fine. We are different people, and we respond to things differently. Perhaps, if someone berated you throughout a discussion, to drive a point home...you would enjoy it...or maybe it challenges you. It doesn't challenge me. It actually makes me view the person who is insulting as having a weak argument, because if an argument is SOLID, there's no reason to berate.

    7) I'm partially speaking in generalities here.

    8) Thank you for your kind words. I think your no-nonsense approach (I'll be kind lol)...is a good one, and I've gleaned much from your comments.

    9) I'm not easily offended. I just think insults, jabs, put downs...dumbs down the integrity of debate. I'm not saying I can't get angry, etc...but, I'm just not of the camp that insults or mocking someone's ideas, to get MY ideas across...is the right way to go.

    10) I agree with everything else you said.
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  6. #106  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    In my observation, neverfly's delivery, not unlike that of a certain duck, is frequently a bit 'challenging' and is becoming somewhat more understandable to me by what these individuals have posted on a number of other threads. The line of questioning that they bring to these discussions does have the value of provoking one to examine other perspectives beyond the one of the present emotion and moment.

    Laters all...time to dash...
    i agree, but that type of 'delivery' has never worked with me. bosses, relationships, friends...anyone who talks AT me, i tend to not hear the message. doesn't have to be candy coated, but tact goes a long way.
    This is the part that's caught me out all my life.
    Is the discussion about the subject or about each recipient's feelings?

    In a different context, but apropos (and one that I identified with completely):
    Leonard: Have you considered telling her how you feel?
    Sheldon: Leonard, I'm a physicist, not a hippie!
    PhDemon likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    1) You put words in my mouth, a lot--or fabricate things I've said. ie: your first comment back to me in post #104. I never said any of that. You said it, make it look like I said it, and then argue your points, back to me. But, I never said it. lol I'm sure you are a treat with the game of 'telephone.'
    I'm not sure where I put words in your mouth- but if you say I did, I'm sorry as that was certainly not my intention. If you ever feel I've put words in your mouth it means I misunderstood you and you're free to berate me.
    To me, I think you put words in my mouth when you said I insulted you. So I asked about it... and you said to forget about it. You later answered but only said it was the delivery... Which tells me that you adopted a feeling from what I said more than it was something specific that I had actually said.
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    2) Being contrary for the sake of being contrary -- sometimes you do this. Is this a debate 'strategy?' Or, is this merely your 'idea' of debate?
    You assume I do this. No, I do not intentionally be contrary just for the sake of being contrary. Not Ever.
    I am contrary only because I disagree and debate the reasons why. Such an assumption is unwarranted and can easily cause conflict, misunderstandings and problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    It actually makes me view the person who is insulting as having a weak argument, because if an argument is SOLID, there's no reason to berate.
    The problem here is whether the person is actually berating vs. whether someone is feeling berated and a strong and solid argument may need to be re-enforced with a bit of berating. To claim that an argument must be weak if it berates, as well, is utter nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    8) Thank you for your kind words.
    You're welcome and thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    I think your no-nonsense approach (I'll be kind lol)
    Thanks again.
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    ...is a good one, and I've gleaned much from your comments.
    Which demonstrates my point: You chose to listen.
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    9) I'm not easily offended. I just think insults, jabs, put downs...dumbs down the integrity of debate.
    I don't disagree with this, really.

    But at the same time, you've got those people that declare that they have been insulted even when they haven't. Sometimes, it is clearly absurd. Sometimes, it is not so clear. Other times, it's understandable- but still not accurate.
    Example: "Ignorant."
    I am ignorant about many things. I use the word because it applies. It is a valid word.
    Some people perceive the word, "ignorant" as a derogatory insult.
    If I say someone is ignorant about Astronomy - that statement can be valid, accurate and perfectly acceptably true. But he still may flip out and pound his fists on the table claiming I was insulting.
    But the word is not derogatory nor insulting- it's just a basic descriptive.

    Now, if I said he had a fat face, beady eyes and a pimple on his nose... he might have a case.
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  8. #108  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    In my observation, neverfly's delivery, not unlike that of a certain duck, is frequently a bit 'challenging' and is becoming somewhat more understandable to me by what these individuals have posted on a number of other threads. The line of questioning that they bring to these discussions does have the value of provoking one to examine other perspectives beyond the one of the present emotion and moment.

    Laters all...time to dash...
    i agree, but that type of 'delivery' has never worked with me. bosses, relationships, friends...anyone who talks AT me, i tend to not hear the message. doesn't have to be candy coated, but tact goes a long way.
    This is the part that's caught me out all my life.
    Is the discussion about the subject or about each recipient's feelings?

    In a different context, but apropos (and one that I identified with completely):
    Leonard: Have you considered telling her how you feel?
    Sheldon: Leonard, I'm a physicist, not a hippie!
    *chuckle*

    EVEN Sir Physicist Ducks have "feeling"
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  9. #109  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    EVEN Sir Physicist Ducks have "feeling"
    I'll admit that it's a possibility.
    But they're not germane to the vast majority of discussions/ topics on this forum.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  10. #110  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    EVEN Sir Physicist Ducks have "feeling"
    I'll admit that it's a possibility.
    But they're not germane to the vast majority of discussions/ topics on this forum.
    I question that, because trust is earned by actions and I think those actions create learned feelings, by positively validating them!
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  11. #111  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    EVEN Sir Physicist Ducks have "feeling"
    I'll admit that it's a possibility.
    But they're not germane to the vast majority of discussions/ topics on this forum.
    I question that, because trust is earned by actions and I think those actions create learned feelings, by positively validating them!
    I did mean on the forum as whole.
    But.. with regard to this particular topic (if that's what you meant):
    While discussing the subject we're discussing the subject.
    I.e. how you or I "feel" 1 about a given response is largely irrelevant if it's advancing the discussion.
    "I don't like that answer" or even "I don't like the way that answer was phrased" is far less significant than "is that answer valid?"/ "does that reply increase my understanding?"

    1 In fact I've out-Sheldoned Sheldon a few times: on being asked "How do you feel about that?" I've replied "I don't understand the question".
    Neverfly likes this.
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  12. #112  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    EVEN Sir Physicist Ducks have "feeling"
    I'll admit that it's a possibility.
    But they're not germane to the vast majority of discussions/ topics on this forum.
    I question that, because trust is earned by actions and I think those actions create learned feelings, by positively validating them!
    I did mean on the forum as whole.
    But.. with regard to this particular topic (if that's what you meant):
    While discussing the subject we're discussing the subject.
    I.e. how you or I "feel" 1 about a given response is largely irrelevant if it's advancing the discussion.
    "I don't like that answer" or even "I don't like the way that answer was phrased" is far less significant than "is that answer valid?"/ "does that reply increase my understanding?"

    1 In fact I've out-Sheldoned Sheldon a few times: on being asked "How do you feel about that?" I've replied "I don't understand the question".
    mine was to this thread....

    Sir Duckness...did I not say "do those actions VALIDATE feelings....and it is directed to my response in this thread, only.

    Mahalo

    I want to make sure we aren't misunderstanding each other.
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  13. #113  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    and I better get to bed

    this FORUM is getting me in trouble...as I get to bed an hour later than normal!
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  14. #114  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Sir Duckness...did I not say "do those actions VALIDATE feelings....and it is directed to my response in this thread, only.
    I don't understand THAT either.
    The topic is feelings - we're discussing feelings, not involving them.

    I want to make sure we aren't misunderstanding each other.
    I'm almost certain we are - or at least I'm not understanding what you're saying.
    (Not that that's an implication it's your fault 1).

    1 Although, obviously it is, since I'm perfect.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  15. #115  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Sir Duckness...did I not say "do those actions VALIDATE feelings....and it is directed to my response in this thread, only.
    I don't understand THAT either.
    The topic is feelings - we're discussing feelings, not involving them.

    I want to make sure we aren't misunderstanding each other.
    I'm almost certain we are - or at least I'm not understanding what you're saying.
    (Not that that's an implication it's your fault 1).

    1 Although, obviously it is, since I'm perfect.
    No....Sir Darling DUck *L* I am imperfect and
    *cough*
    so are you!


    I think we are not understanding what each of us are saying to some degree....I don't speak your language anymore than you speak mine in many ways....so lets figure a way to clear this all up....ok?

    Now I am going to bed......

    Little Mary Sunshine departs! *chuckle*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    I.e. how you or I "feel" 1 about a given response is largely irrelevant if it's advancing the discussion.
    "I don't like that answer" or even "I don't like the way that answer was phrased" is far less significant than "is that answer valid?"/ "does that reply increase my understanding?"
    Perfectly expressed and carries more weight than my saying it as I am a hypocrite on this topic. Well put, Dywyddyr.
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  17. #117  
    ...matter and pixie dust wegs's Avatar
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    Read through the comments and thank you; much food for thought!Just a blanket statement for now, but I'll come back later to address the other points.Duck made a comment about how the recipient's feelings shouldn't come into play if the discussion is being furthered. My reply to that is you don't have a message without a recipient to receive it.If you wish to chat with a robot, then that mindset will work.If you wish to have a healthy debate with another human being, it won't work .And what won't work is a bull dozing kind of mentality that I'm going to get my message across no matter what, even if I offend.Without someone to hear your message, your message is useless.You will lose your audience if you feel the need to insult them to drive a point home.Your message doesn't hold any value without someone to listen to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Read through the comments and thank you; much food for thought!Just a blanket statement for now, but I'll come back later to address the other points.Duck made a comment about how the recipient's feelings shouldn't come into play if the discussion is being furthered. My reply to that is you don't have a message without a recipient to receive it.If you wish to chat with a robot, then that mindset will work.If you wish to have a healthy debate with another human being, it won't work .And what won't work is a bull dozing kind of mentality that I'm going to get my message across no matter what, even if I offend.Without someone to hear your message, your message is useless.You will lose your audience if you feel the need to insult them to drive a point home.Your message doesn't hold any value without someone to listen to it.
    Then, they should choose to listen. I repeat- placing the onus entirely on the speaker is very one sided and does not seem very conducive to 'healthy' debate.
    Especially if the recipient can just react offended no matter what the speaker says. No. Being offended is not grounds for behaving irrationally, failing to think critically or objectively.
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  19. #119  
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    I once had a friend, a woman, who made bad choices with men. We came to a point in our relationship, wherein she would use me as a sex toy when she felt the need, rather than grabbing the wrong guy and regretting it. Sometimes, she would call me up and ask me to come over and spend the night as a way of getting rid of some guy she had brought home. So, I satisfied that need(so she could seek a mate with her mind rather than with her crotch) until she met a decent fellow and they settled down together.
    She and I could both tell this was one worth having for her because not only did she like him, his mind, his body, his whit, and his compassion, but her young son Sean bonded to him almost instantly. I had heard/read that people had auras, and lying next to her, i could tell when she had dozed off as it looked like someone had turned off a blue light------meanwhile, i was stashing cash and marking time between universities, then I left for SIU. They married and were still renting the same house down the road from my favorite bar. A few months later, I came back for a visit, and stopped in just about suppertime. Over supper, I mentioned the blue light thing, and her husband said that he had noticed the same thing.

    .............
    on another note, the above mentioned guys often pretend to not understand; though I do appreciate how that encourages one to seek and to find better phrases for explanations of thoughts, I also find that approach, from time to time, a tedious royal pain in the ass which disrupts the flow of converstaion/information.

    bitter with the sweet babies
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  20. #120  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    on another note, the above mentioned guys often pretend to not understand
    Oh, incorrect assumption again.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  21. #121  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Read through the comments and thank you; much food for thought!Just a blanket statement for now, but I'll come back later to address the other points.Duck made a comment about how the recipient's feelings shouldn't come into play if the discussion is being furthered. My reply to that is you don't have a message without a recipient to receive it.If you wish to chat with a robot, then that mindset will work.If you wish to have a healthy debate with another human being, it won't work .And what won't work is a bull dozing kind of mentality that I'm going to get my message across no matter what, even if I offend.Without someone to hear your message, your message is useless.You will lose your audience if you feel the need to insult them to drive a point home.Your message doesn't hold any value without someone to listen to it.
    Well that's certainly one way to misconstrue.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  22. #122  
    ...matter and pixie dust wegs's Avatar
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    Case in point;I have a friend who insults people constantly, when debating. No matter the topic, this poster's replies are typically riddled with subtle jabs and rude innuendos at whoever he is sparring with...leaving the other person frustrated and angry.In our circle of friends, a party came up, and the person hosting it didn't invite him. His reason was that "Joe" doesn't realize that he doesn't need to belittle us in order to drive his point home."Joe" was upset about not being invited and told off my friend who was hosting the party."Joe" came to me about it and asked what he did. I said to him that needing to appear right had its consequences I guess.(And most of the time, he isn't right which is the great irony here.)But, while we all here are not pals on this website, it goes to show that HOW you deliver a message does matter. Your recipient should matter, because that is who you want to convey your message to.Now, on a message board such as this, we all have the luxury if rereading each others posts and we may glean things from them later, down the road. Even if the message was offensive to us, at first.Doesn't work so well in verbal dialogues. Sometimes, words hurt. You have to strike a balance, between assertion and patience, when considering your "audience." Frankly, this is why not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Case in point;I have a friend who insults people constantly, when debating. No matter the topic, this poster's replies are typically riddled with subtle jabs and rude innuendos at whoever he is sparring with...leaving the other person frustrated and angry.In our circle of friends, a party came up, and the person hosting it didn't invite him. His reason was that "Joe" doesn't realize that he doesn't need to belittle us in order to drive his point home."Joe" was upset about not being invited and told off my friend who was hosting the party."Joe" came to me about it and asked what he did. I said to him that needing to appear right had its consequences I guess.(And most of the time, he isn't right which is the great irony here.)But, while we all here are not pals on this website, it goes to show that HOW you deliver a message does matter. Your recipient should matter, because that is who you want to convey your message to.Now, on a message board such as this, we all have the luxury if rereading each others posts and we may glean things from them later, down the road. Even if the message was offensive to us, at first.Doesn't work so well in verbal dialogues. Sometimes, words hurt. You have to strike a balance, between assertion and patience, when considering your "audience." Frankly, this is why not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. :-)
    Oh, I never claimed to be a teacher. But whether you can say I am belittling you, etc, I'd ask for some good evidence. Here's the thing:

    Joe: "You cannot understand the flaw in your statement because you're a dumbass stupid half wit with a hooker mother."

    Clearly, that's not very nice. In debate it is called :Ad Hominem.

    Joe: "Such ignorance is not going to get you very far. You need to get a library and study the material."
    Is this belittling, insulting or degrading? I think a lot of people on the recieving end would say it is. But is isn't. It can be an honest and accurate portrayal with sage advice along with it. So a thin skinned person wouldn't handle it well- it's a debate setting; too bad for thin skinned people.
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    Another case in point;I'm in a sales/marketing role...my "audience" is the oil and gas market, predominately.The roles I target are CEOs, COOs, and CFOs.A CFO on average, has a very different vision for the company than say a COO. The roles are different, and often their personalities are different. I have to be mindful if this when delivering my "pitch."The same cookie cutter pitch will not resonate with all three roles, equally.Further to this, I mainly deal with men as my target prospects. In oil and gas, if I'm discussing oil rigs with a drilling manager, his personality is often worlds different than a CFO.I have to make sure my message resonates with him otherwise, he won't be interested in listening.So...your audience and HOW you drive a point home matters IF you wish to keep their attention.If you just want to lecture people, then ignore my advice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Case in point;I have a friend who insults people constantly, when debating. No matter the topic, this poster's replies are typically riddled with subtle jabs and rude innuendos at whoever he is sparring with...leaving the other person frustrated and angry.In our circle of friends, a party came up, and the person hosting it didn't invite him. His reason was that "Joe" doesn't realize that he doesn't need to belittle us in order to drive his point home."Joe" was upset about not being invited and told off my friend who was hosting the party."Joe" came to me about it and asked what he did. I said to him that needing to appear right had its consequences I guess.(And most of the time, he isn't right which is the great irony here.)But, while we all here are not pals on this website, it goes to show that HOW you deliver a message does matter. Your recipient should matter, because that is who you want to convey your message to.Now, on a message board such as this, we all have the luxury if rereading each others posts and we may glean things from them later, down the road. Even if the message was offensive to us, at first.Doesn't work so well in verbal dialogues. Sometimes, words hurt. You have to strike a balance, between assertion and patience, when considering your "audience." Frankly, this is why not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. :-)
    Oh, I never claimed to be a teacher. But whether you can say I am belittling you, etc, I'd ask for some good evidence. Here's the thing:Joe: "You cannot understand the flaw in your statement because you're a dumbass stupid half wit with a hooker mother."Clearly, that's not very nice. In debate it is called :Ad Hominem.Joe: "Such ignorance is not going to get you very far. You need to get a library and study the material."Is this belittling, insulting or degrading? I think a lot of people on the recieving end would say it is. But is isn't. It can be an honest and accurate portrayal with sage advice along with it. So a thin skinned person wouldn't handle it well- it's a debate setting; too bad for thin skinned people.
    How did this straw man get here? LolITT: we learn that if someone is offended during debate, he or she is thin skinned.I do agree that the onus is not solely on the part of the messenger. The recipient has a role too, and that is to listen and decide if what is being said, had value to him/her.Thing is this...ppl who are in a debate are largely debating ppl who are not of the same opinion given a certain topic. Right? Otherwise, why debate? Ppl debate to persuade. If ppl who are debating someone of a differing opinion, and during the debate they are receiving virtual high fives from ppl who think just like them...what was the point of the debate? If the debate ended with the person or ppl being offended and unwilling to "buy into" the messenger's message, but said messenger got a lot of "atta boys" from his peers, that would be considered a fruitless debate.In other words, I sometimes wonder the motive behind people "debating" and using straw man arguments, insults, jabs etc in order to prove points. Not saying anyone here, but in other threads here I see it, and to me that's not debate. That is someone seeking to gain accolades from their peers who already agree with them. To those types, I back away from "debate" not because I'm thin skinned but because I won't participate in that type of agenda.It's pretty obvious if you run across this "style" of debate.
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    I am only shortly home from work and had a lot of reading to catch up with on this thread. The original question, "Is trust earned or learned?" remains largely unaddressed. The following article may be of interest to this topic as it suggests that trust and trustworthiness may actually have a genetic factor.

    11/14/2011
    CORVALLIS, Ore. – Scientists have discovered that a gene that influences empathy, parental sensitivity and sociability is so powerful that even strangers observing 20 seconds of silent video identified people with a particular genetic variation to be more caring and trusting.

    “It was amazing to see how the data aligned so strongly by genotype,” Saturn said. “It makes sense that a gene crucial for social processing would yield these findings; other studies have shown that people are good at judging people at a distance and first impressions really make an impact.”
    Before the videos were recorded, the scientists tested the couples and identified their genotype as GG, AG, or AA. Individuals homozygous for the G allele (carrying two copies of the G version of the gene) of the oxytocin receptor tend to be more “prosocial,” defined by researchers as the ability to behave in a way that benefits another person. In contrast, the carriers of the A version of the gene (AG or AA genotypes) tend to have a higher risk of autism, as well as self-reported lower levels of positive emotions, empathy and parental sensitivity.
    The kindness of strangers: caring and trust linked to genetic variation | News & Research Communications | Oregon State University
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    I'll admit that it's a possibility.
    But they're not germane to the vast majority of discussions/ topics on this forum.
    I question that, because trust is earned by actions and I think those actions create learned feelings, by positively validating them!
    I did mean on the forum as whole.
    But.. with regard to this particular topic (if that's what you meant):
    While discussing the subject we're discussing the subject.
    I.e. how you or I "feel" 1 about a given response is largely irrelevant if it's advancing the discussion.
    "I don't like that answer" or even "I don't like the way that answer was phrased" is far less significant than "is that answer valid?"/ "does that reply increase my understanding?"

    1 In fact I've out-Sheldoned Sheldon a few times: on being asked "How do you feel about that?" I've replied "I don't understand the question".
    I don't disagree with this; expressing a message to someone, giving information...is ultimately what the messenger is trying to do. The content is what matters most, or should...but, the content can get lost in translation, is all I'm suggesting. If it's important for you to convey your point to someone, if you care to get someone to see what you're saying, employ what I suggest. If you don't care, and just want to convey information without a care if it's resonating, then don't.

    Not everyone in life is a ''Sheldon,'' so...having said that, sometimes, we have to consider the audience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Then, they should choose to listen. I repeat- placing the onus entirely on the speaker is very one sided and does not seem very conducive to 'healthy' debate.
    Especially if the recipient can just react offended no matter what the speaker says. No. Being offended is not grounds for behaving irrationally, failing to think critically or objectively.
    I think I addressed this in one of my prior posts, today.
    I think it's safe to say we are all guilty of not thinking objectively, at times, no matter the topic.
    But, I hear you on this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    I once had a friend, a woman, who made bad choices with men. We came to a point in our relationship, wherein she would use me as a sex toy when she felt the need, rather than grabbing the wrong guy and regretting it. Sometimes, she would call me up and ask me to come over and spend the night as a way of getting rid of some guy she had brought home. So, I satisfied that need(so she could seek a mate with her mind rather than with her crotch) until she met a decent fellow and they settled down together.
    She and I could both tell this was one worth having for her because not only did she like him, his mind, his body, his whit, and his compassion, but her young son Sean bonded to him almost instantly. I had heard/read that people had auras, and lying next to her, i could tell when she had dozed off as it looked like someone had turned off a blue light------meanwhile, i was stashing cash and marking time between universities, then I left for SIU. They married and were still renting the same house down the road from my favorite bar. A few months later, I came back for a visit, and stopped in just about suppertime. Over supper, I mentioned the blue light thing, and her husband said that he had noticed the same thing.

    .............
    on another note, the above mentioned guys often pretend to not understand; though I do appreciate how that encourages one to seek and to find better phrases for explanations of thoughts, I also find that approach, from time to time, a tedious royal pain in the ass which disrupts the flow of converstaion/information.

    bitter with the sweet babies
    On your first point, I think that when women (or men) feel they must be in a relationship for their self worth depends on it, they will make horrid choices in who they choose to date/marry. I was once in that camp, and thankfully, no longer view my worth through a man's eyes, any longer. I view the healthiest relationships as being those that have equity at their helm, and a mutually rewarding respect that exists between the two partners. Trust is hard to build, when the reasons you seek a relationship in the first place, are not healthy.

    To your second point, lol. I will have to continue to observe here, to get a better feel for that. thanks for your thoughts, sculptor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Well that's certainly one way to misconstrue.
    Exactly illustrates my point. There's nowhere to go with a sentence like this. So, um...ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Case in point;I have a friend who insults people constantly, when debating. No matter the topic, this poster's replies are typically riddled with subtle jabs and rude innuendos at whoever he is sparring with...leaving the other person frustrated and angry.In our circle of friends, a party came up, and the person hosting it didn't invite him. His reason was that "Joe" doesn't realize that he doesn't need to belittle us in order to drive his point home."Joe" was upset about not being invited and told off my friend who was hosting the party."Joe" came to me about it and asked what he did. I said to him that needing to appear right had its consequences I guess.(And most of the time, he isn't right which is the great irony here.)But, while we all here are not pals on this website, it goes to show that HOW you deliver a message does matter. Your recipient should matter, because that is who you want to convey your message to.Now, on a message board such as this, we all have the luxury if rereading each others posts and we may glean things from them later, down the road. Even if the message was offensive to us, at first.Doesn't work so well in verbal dialogues. Sometimes, words hurt. You have to strike a balance, between assertion and patience, when considering your "audience." Frankly, this is why not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. :-)
    Oh, I never claimed to be a teacher. But whether you can say I am belittling you, etc, I'd ask for some good evidence. Here's the thing:

    Joe: "You cannot understand the flaw in your statement because you're a dumbass stupid half wit with a hooker mother."

    Clearly, that's not very nice. In debate it is called :Ad Hominem.

    Joe: "Such ignorance is not going to get you very far. You need to get a library and study the material."
    Is this belittling, insulting or degrading? I think a lot of people on the recieving end would say it is. But is isn't. It can be an honest and accurate portrayal with sage advice along with it. So a thin skinned person wouldn't handle it well- it's a debate setting; too bad for thin skinned people.
    Bluntness can still be effective without insult. I think thin skinned people can't take bluntness, but people overall, in general, don't care for insults. Bluntness is not synonmous with insults, and to construe the two (not saying you are, but just saying)... is really nothing more than a weak justification for one's inability to stop being rude when driving a point home.

    Unfortunately, for people like 'Joe,' he will continue to blame his audience, rather than look at how he addresses his audience. Maybe when Joe runs out of an audience altogether, he will see the problem of his way.
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    I am only shortly home from work and had a lot of reading to catch up with on this thread. The original question, "Is trust earned or learned?" remains largely unaddressed. The following article may be of interest to this topic as it suggests that trust and trustworthiness may actually have a genetic factor.

    11/14/2011
    CORVALLIS, Ore. – Scientists have discovered that a gene that influences empathy, parental sensitivity and sociability is so powerful that even strangers observing 20 seconds of silent video identified people with a particular genetic variation to be more caring and trusting.

    “It was amazing to see how the data aligned so strongly by genotype,” Saturn said. “It makes sense that a gene crucial for social processing would yield these findings; other studies have shown that people are good at judging people at a distance and first impressions really make an impact.”
    Before the videos were recorded, the scientists tested the couples and identified their genotype as GG, AG, or AA. Individuals homozygous for the G allele (carrying two copies of the G version of the gene) of the oxytocin receptor tend to be more “prosocial,” defined by researchers as the ability to behave in a way that benefits another person. In contrast, the carriers of the A version of the gene (AG or AA genotypes) tend to have a higher risk of autism, as well as self-reported lower levels of positive emotions, empathy and parental sensitivity.
    The kindness of strangers: caring and trust linked to genetic variation | News & Research Communications | Oregon State University
    Ok, THIS is nothing short of fascinating. I'm taken aback a bit by the assertions, to be honest...what do you think about it?
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    Originally posted by Scheherazade:
    Originally posted by wegs: Ok, THIS is nothing short of fascinating. I'm taken aback a bit by the assertions, to be honest...what do you think about it?
    From a basic course in genetics and decades spent in breeding elite sled dogs and performance horses, I am quite convinced that personality (and it's associated characteristics ) has a strong genetic component that can be influenced but not eradicated by environment. The old saying that 'The leopard does not change his spots' is an acknowledgement of this observation, in my opinion. I spent many years in helping people rehabilitate 'problem horses' with the conclusion that an experienced person can make life a lot better for such an animal, but I am not convinced that such an animal can ever be trusted to the same degree as a 'problem free' horse because the triggers will always remain. We teach the horse better coping skills but we are not able to purge it's memory and horses have as close to a photographic memory as one can demonstrate because their life depends upon observation, they being a prey species.

    If my observations of dogs and horses carries over to people, you may want to pay more attention to the personalities and characteristics of the grandparents of a prospective partner than the immediate parents as many traits seem to 'skip' a generation.

    They are my own personal observations and speculations, open to 'discussion' but not good material for arduous debate, lol.
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    Wegs, I think I see a disconnect, here. I think we're both looking at the other arguments as though they extend into extremes.

    While I think claiming a point is belittling, such as the use of the word, "Ignorant" is invalid in debate; being a jerk that uses insults to muscle through an argument is not worthy of tolerance or respect.

    The points I've made question the perceptions of the recipient. Earlier you claimed I insulted you but I could not find the insult, so I asked what it was.
    You also accused me of being contrary only for the sake of being contrary and I honestly have no idea why you concluded such a thing considering that any reader of my posts can see I argue when I disagree. I post agreements when I agree.

    Perceptions followed with accusation can be just as destructive as insult.
    Last edited by Neverfly; August 17th, 2013 at 08:24 PM. Reason: argue got changed into agree
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  30. #130  
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    Think I agree with most of that ^^ neverfly.At the end of the day, balance is key. You seem to have come a long way in this exchange.Jk! I learned a lot too. I can stand to listen with my mind more than with emotions.Appreciate you taking the time to discuss all this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Originally posted by Scheherazade: Originally posted by wegs: Ok, THIS is nothing short of fascinating. I'm taken aback a bit by the assertions, to be honest...what do you think about it?
    From a basic course in genetics and decades spent in breeding elite sled dogs and performance horses, I am quite convinced that personality (and it's associated characteristics ) has a strong genetic component that can be influenced but not eradicated by environment. The old saying that 'The leopard does not change his spots' is an acknowledgement of this observation, in my opinion. I spent many years in helping people rehabilitate 'problem horses' with the conclusion that an experienced person can make life a lot better for such an animal, but I am not convinced that such an animal can ever be trusted to the same degree as a 'problem free' horse because the triggers will always remain. We teach the horse better coping skills but we are not able to purge it's memory and horses have as close to a photographic memory as one can demonstrate because their life depends upon observation, they being a prey species. If my observations of dogs and horses carries over to people, you may want to pay more attention to the personalities and characteristics of the grandparents of a prospective partner than the immediate parents as many traits seem to 'skip' a generation. They are my own personal observations and speculations, open to 'discussion' but not good material for arduous debate, lol.
    You are so interesting, your perspective here I would never have considered. The connection you make between horses and this, is very keen. The interesting parallel between animals and ppl is that animals too take time to build trust. One of my cats runs under the bed when I have company over, because he doesn't know the person. As time goes on, if said company keeps coming back, my cat starts to walk about...sniffing my friend...slowly "learning" to trust. Even an animal learns it and doesn't give it away without some trepidation. It's about balance...learning to not be skeptical and be open minded ... I want to come back to a point you made about my faith and how that can be perceived by some men. I agree with that point! Often ...if a man learns that I believe in God, and sad to say this happens more with Christian guys than with guys who are atheists, he assumes I'm weak minded or that I will tolerate any and all behaviors. It's caused me now to not want to share that aspect about myself until I really feel I can trust someone.I meant to address that point when u said it ...it is unfortunate but a true thing!
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  32. #132  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    case in point;i have a friend who insults people constantly, when debating. No matter the topic, this poster's replies are typically riddled with subtle jabs and rude innuendos at whoever he is sparring with...leaving the other person frustrated and angry.in our circle of friends, a party came up, and the person hosting it didn't invite him. His reason was that "joe" doesn't realize that he doesn't need to belittle us in order to drive his point home."joe" was upset about not being invited and told off my friend who was hosting the party."joe" came to me about it and asked what he did. I said to him that needing to appear right had its consequences i guess.(and most of the time, he isn't right which is the great irony here.)but, while we all here are not pals on this website, it goes to show that how you deliver a message does matter. Your recipient should matter, because that is who you want to convey your message to.now, on a message board such as this, we all have the luxury if rereading each others posts and we may glean things from them later, down the road. Even if the message was offensive to us, at first.doesn't work so well in verbal dialogues. Sometimes, words hurt. You have to strike a balance, between assertion and patience, when considering your "audience." frankly, this is why not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. :-)

    applause!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    another case in point;i'm in a sales/marketing role...my "audience" is the oil and gas market, predominately.the roles i target are ceos, coos, and cfos.a cfo on average, has a very different vision for the company than say a coo. The roles are different, and often their personalities are different. I have to be mindful if this when delivering my "pitch."the same cookie cutter pitch will not resonate with all three roles, equally.further to this, i mainly deal with men as my target prospects. In oil and gas, if i'm discussing oil rigs with a drilling manager, his personality is often worlds different than a cfo.i have to make sure my message resonates with him otherwise, he won't be interested in listening.so...your audience and how you drive a point home matters if you wish to keep their attention.if you just want to lecture people, then ignore my advice.
    more applause!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Originally posted by Scheherazade:
    Originally posted by wegs: Ok, THIS is nothing short of fascinating. I'm taken aback a bit by the assertions, to be honest...what do you think about it?
    From a basic course in genetics and decades spent in breeding elite sled dogs and performance horses, I am quite convinced that personality (and it's associated characteristics ) has a strong genetic component that can be influenced but not eradicated by environment. The old saying that 'The leopard does not change his spots' is an acknowledgement of this observation, in my opinion. I spent many years in helping people rehabilitate 'problem horses' with the conclusion that an experienced person can make life a lot better for such an animal, but I am not convinced that such an animal can ever be trusted to the same degree as a 'problem free' horse because the triggers will always remain. We teach the horse better coping skills but we are not able to purge it's memory and horses have as close to a photographic memory as one can demonstrate because their life depends upon observation, they being a prey species.

    If my observations of dogs and horses carries over to people, you may want to pay more attention to the personalities and characteristics of the grandparents of a prospective partner than the immediate parents as many traits seem to 'skip' a generation.

    They are my own personal observations and speculations, open to 'discussion' but not good material for arduous debate, lol.
    A very interesting post, and knowing others who work with animals, a point well taken.
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    Welp--going out for dinner with someone tonight. I will keep an open mind, and I'll make sure to wear my halo.

    I've known him for a little while, he told me we should have a "test date."
    Is that like a test drive? O_o

    Wish me luck... :-)
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  36. #136  
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    This site should have a "half of a like" feature; you know, when you almost agree 100% with someone but not quite.But until then, I'll give out a full like!
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    This site should have a "half of a like" feature; you know, when you almost agree 100% with someone but not quite.But until then, I'll give out a full like!
    When I 'like' a post, it does not mean that I am in total accord and even at times I will 'like' a post that I intend to flame, lol. It provides an indication that something about the post resonated with me, that it has provided me with a variation of perspective or stimulated me to additional thought. Sometimes I am just speed-reading and not logged in so many good posts go without thanks. I sometimes get a chance to double back and thank them, while at other times, life is a one-way street, lol, forward only.
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  38. #138  
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    My "test date" went quite well. On a scale from 1 to 10...it was an 11.
    Doh! I didn't expect thatttt!

    Test date two...on the horizon. :-)

    Since he has been a friend, I have some trust in him already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    My "test date" went quite well. On a scale from 1 to 10...it was an 11.
    Doh! I didn't expect thatttt!

    Test date two...on the horizon. :-)

    Since he has been a friend, I have some trust in him already.
    Good.....keep an open mind but let the flags fall where they may!
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    I really didn't understand the difference between saying something is earner rather than learned--unless it's tied to something more tangible like a trust fund.
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  41. #141  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I really didn't understand the difference between saying something is earner rather than learned--unless it's tied to something more tangible like a trust fund.
    Trust funds would give a better ROI that's for sure.
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  42. #142  
    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I really didn't understand the difference between saying something is earner rather than learned--unless it's tied to something more tangible like a trust fund.
    The way that I interpreted that statement is that learning to trust puts the onus on me, while earning my trust puts the onus on the other person.
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  43. #143  
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    I thought I'd share an update. I've decided, to trust someone, yep! In a nutshell, I've been friends with a guy for a little while, and we decided to take things...to a dating level. Well, the cool thing is, he totally ''gets'' my trust issues...and doesn't judge me for them. And because of that, I find myself letting go of my negative feelings about trust, and I'm going to stay open to this...Plus, he's a cutie pie. (that helps) Thank you to everyone here, who gave me great advice ... I can't thank you enough.
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  44. #144  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    I thought I'd share an update. I've decided, to trust someone, yep!
    I wish you all the best.
    But take things slowly with giving your trust: don't rush, but don't stop either.
    I hope things work out great for you.
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    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    I am happy that you have found someone whose company you enjoy, wegs, and wish you both well in sharing the journey to see where the path may take you.

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  46. #146  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    I thought I'd share an update. I've decided, to trust someone, yep!
    I wish you all the best.But take things slowly with giving your trust: don't rush, but don't stop either. I hope things work out great for you.
    Oh thank you, RedPanda! I will take your advice ...I'm still a little skittish but he's a great person and to allow my fear to push him aside would be really stupid. Lol Your post made me smile.
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  47. #147  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    I am happy that you have found someone whose company you enjoy, wegs, and wish you both well in sharing the journey to see where the path may take you.
    I love that! I feel teary eyed, damn you people! I'm optimistically cautious.
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  48. #148  
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    It's manufactured in properly licensed facilities, then shipped priority mail to households across the world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    I thought I'd share an update. I've decided, to trust someone, yep! In a nutshell, I've been friends with a guy for a little while, and we decided to take things...to a dating level. Well, the cool thing is, he totally ''gets'' my trust issues...and doesn't judge me for them. And because of that, I find myself letting go of my negative feelings about trust, and I'm going to stay open to this...Plus, he's a cutie pie. (that helps) Thank you to everyone here, who gave me great advice ... I can't thank you enough.
    Best to you.
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  50. #150  
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    Trust is like a pokemon. First form is learned, then when betrayed it morphs into earned, then when you get betrayed again you reach the ultimate form. Permanent Cynicism.
    A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it. - David Stevens
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  51. #151  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell View Post
    Trust is like a pokemon. First form is learned, then when betrayed it morphs into earned, then when you get betrayed again you reach the ultimate form. Permanent Cynicism.
    No matter how many times this has happened to me, I will NEVER ACHIEVE PERMANENT CYNICISM!
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  52. #152  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell View Post
    Trust is like a pokemon. First form is learned, then when betrayed it morphs into earned, then when you get betrayed again you reach the ultimate form. Permanent Cynicism.
    No matter how many times this has happened to me, I will NEVER ACHIEVE PERMANENT CYNICISM!
    Im not sure if that makes you weak or strong. But I like you so Im going to say strong due to that bias
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  53. #153  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell View Post
    Trust is like a pokemon. First form is learned, then when betrayed it morphs into earned, then when you get betrayed again you reach the ultimate form. Permanent Cynicism.
    No matter how many times this has happened to me, I will NEVER ACHIEVE PERMANENT CYNICISM!
    Practice makes perfect.
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  54. #154  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell View Post
    Trust is like a pokemon. First form is learned, then when betrayed it morphs into earned, then when you get betrayed again you reach the ultimate form. Permanent Cynicism.
    No matter how many times this has happened to me, I will NEVER ACHIEVE PERMANENT CYNICISM!
    Im not sure if that makes you weak or strong. But I like you so Im going to say strong due to that bias
    IT takes more effort to find the good than find the bad!
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  55. #155  
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    Good question! "To err is human; forgive divine." On the other hand, you don't want to be a doormat for abuse. On the third hand, a mindset that trust must always be earned may keep you "safe," but the price may be a distinct lack of quality relationships.

    Life and relationships can be scary! But nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    I've often trusted others who've later proven themselves unworthy of my trust. They have very rarely harmed me in any way, however, and the ones who've proven trustworthy often did so in response to the trust I extended to them.

    Both I and others are significantly better for my have chosen to trust others. Guarded? Yes, but trusting nevertheless.
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  56. #156  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delta Flyer View Post
    Good question! "To err is human; forgive divine." On the other hand, you don't want to be a doormat for abuse. On the third hand, a mindset that trust must always be earned may keep you "safe," but the price may be a distinct lack of quality relationships.

    Life and relationships can be scary! But nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    I've often trusted others who've later proven themselves unworthy of my trust. They have very rarely harmed me in any way, however, and the ones who've proven trustworthy often did so in response to the trust I extended to them.

    Both I and others are significantly better for my have chosen to trust others. Guarded? Yes, but trusting nevertheless.
    My husband says I am to nice sometimes. I have been burned, as others have but 99 times out of 100, I have been rewarded with my choices.
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  57. #157  
    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    Trust may be compared somewhat to gambling, in one respect...one can only afford to venture as much as one would be comfortable in losing.

    In working with horses, I likewise often have to depend on trust in the knowledge that as long as I leave the option of escape available to the horse, most will elect to move away if I make them uncomfortable rather than choosing to be aggressive. Most of them...

    I must also remember to leave myself a way out if my trust turns out to be misplaced.
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  58. #158  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Trust may be compared somewhat to gambling, in one respect...one can only afford to venture as much as one would be comfortable in losing.

    In working with horses, I likewise often have to depend on trust in the knowledge that as long as I leave the option of escape available to the horse, most will elect to move away if I make them uncomfortable rather than choosing to be aggressive. Most of them...

    I must also remember to leave myself a way out if my trust turns out to be misplaced.
    Betrayed trust sucks.
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  59. #159  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Trust may be compared somewhat to gambling, in one respect...one can only afford to venture as much as one would be comfortable in losing.

    In working with horses, I likewise often have to depend on trust in the knowledge that as long as I leave the option of escape available to the horse, most will elect to move away if I make them uncomfortable rather than choosing to be aggressive. Most of them...

    I must also remember to leave myself a way out if my trust turns out to be misplaced.
    Betrayed trust sucks.
    Even the one doing the betraying doesn't like what he/she is doing. It hurts both ways.
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  60. #160  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Trust may be compared somewhat to gambling, in one respect...one can only afford to venture as much as one would be comfortable in losing.

    In working with horses, I likewise often have to depend on trust in the knowledge that as long as I leave the option of escape available to the horse, most will elect to move away if I make them uncomfortable rather than choosing to be aggressive. Most of them...

    I must also remember to leave myself a way out if my trust turns out to be misplaced.
    Betrayed trust sucks.
    Even the one doing the betraying doesn't like what he/she is doing. It hurts both ways.
    I disagree. The person betraying trust, would not have any guilt feelings, otherwise they would not be betraying the trust.
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  61. #161  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Trust may be compared somewhat to gambling, in one respect...one can only afford to venture as much as one would be comfortable in losing.

    In working with horses, I likewise often have to depend on trust in the knowledge that as long as I leave the option of escape available to the horse, most will elect to move away if I make them uncomfortable rather than choosing to be aggressive. Most of them...

    I must also remember to leave myself a way out if my trust turns out to be misplaced.
    Betrayed trust sucks.
    Even the one doing the betraying doesn't like what he/she is doing. It hurts both ways.
    I disagree. The person betraying trust, would not have any guilt feelings, otherwise they would not be betraying the trust.
    I have been the betrayer as well as the betrayed. There are issues with both roles, I found. Are you speaking from experience? It was a long time ago.
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  62. #162  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Trust may be compared somewhat to gambling, in one respect...one can only afford to venture as much as one would be comfortable in losing.

    In working with horses, I likewise often have to depend on trust in the knowledge that as long as I leave the option of escape available to the horse, most will elect to move away if I make them uncomfortable rather than choosing to be aggressive. Most of them...

    I must also remember to leave myself a way out if my trust turns out to be misplaced.
    Betrayed trust sucks.
    Even the one doing the betraying doesn't like what he/she is doing. It hurts both ways.
    I disagree. The person betraying trust, would not have any guilt feelings, otherwise they would not be betraying the trust.
    I have been the betrayer as well as the betrayed. There are issues with both roles, I found. Are you speaking from experience? It was a long time ago.

    I have never betrayed a soul in my life.
    I have said my say and walked away.
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  63. #163  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Trust may be compared somewhat to gambling, in one respect...one can only afford to venture as much as one would be comfortable in losing.

    In working with horses, I likewise often have to depend on trust in the knowledge that as long as I leave the option of escape available to the horse, most will elect to move away if I make them uncomfortable rather than choosing to be aggressive. Most of them...

    I must also remember to leave myself a way out if my trust turns out to be misplaced.
    Betrayed trust sucks.
    Even the one doing the betraying doesn't like what he/she is doing. It hurts both ways.
    I disagree. The person betraying trust, would not have any guilt feelings, otherwise they would not be betraying the trust.
    I have been the betrayer as well as the betrayed. There are issues with both roles, I found. Are you speaking from experience? It was a long time ago.

    I have never betrayed a soul in my life.
    I have said my say and walked away.
    And you weren't tempted to stay with the Devil you knew rather than the Devil you don't?
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  64. #164  
    ...matter and pixie dust wegs's Avatar
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    Now that I'm in a healthy relationship, (healthy I guess, being a relative term) I will add that trust needs to be experienced, before you can honestly say you understand what it is. For example, I can ask 100 people to explain to me what swimming is about, but until I experience swimming myself, I will not fully understand it. And frankly, there will be good and bad days with swimming. I may take in a lot of water into my lungs as a beginner swimmer at first, until I learn how to tread water, etc...But, if I don't allow myself the pain that comes with learning how to swim, I will never reap the rewards of it. That's what I have learned. I was petrified to give my heart to someone else, but I allowed myself to be petrified, because I knew that if I stayed guarded, I would never reap the rewards of what it means to trust someone. Thanks to all here who helped me see this, by sharing your own thoughts and experiences.
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  65. #165  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Now that I'm in a healthy relationship, (healthy I guess, being a relative term) I will add that trust needs to be experienced, before you can honestly say you understand what it is. For example, I can ask 100 people to explain to me what swimming is about, but until I experience swimming myself, I will not fully understand it. And frankly, there will be good and bad days with swimming. I may take in a lot of water into my lungs as a beginner swimmer at first, until I learn how to tread water, etc...But, if I don't allow myself the pain that comes with learning how to swim, I will never reap the rewards of it. That's what I have learned. I was petrified to give my heart to someone else, but I allowed myself to be petrified, because I knew that if I stayed guarded, I would never reap the rewards of what it means to trust someone. Thanks to all here who helped me see this, by sharing your own thoughts and experiences.
    Honeymoon? Where did that word come from?

    It seems to be a period of a moon month, but it changes like the Moon. I suppose it takes time to adjust! This is nearly funny -Below "the idea that the first month of marriage is the sweetest".
    Thanks to Wikipedia.
    Etymology[edit]


    The Oxford English Dictionary offers no etymology, but gives examples dating back to the 16th century. The Merriam-Webster dictionary reports the etymology as from "the idea that the first month of marriage is the sweetest" (1546).
    A honeymoon can also be the first moments a newly-wed couple spend together, or the first holiday they spend together to celebrate their marriage.
    "The first month after marriage, when there is nothing but tendernessand pleasure" (Samuel Johnson); originally having no reference to the period of a month, but comparing the mutual affection of newly-married persons to the changing moon which is no sooner full than it begins to wane; now, usually, the holiday spent together by a newly-married couple, before settling down at home.
    One of the more recent citations in the Oxford English Dictionary indicates that, while today honeymoon has a positive meaning, the word was originally a reference to the inevitable waning of love like a phase of the moon. This, the first known literary reference to the honeymoon, was penned in 1552, in Richard Huloet's Abecedarium Anglico Latinum. Huloet writes:[6]
    Hony mone, a term proverbially applied to such as be newly married, which will not fall out at the first, but th'one loveth the other at the beginning exceedingly, the likelihood of their exceadinge love appearing to aswage, ye which time the vulgar people call the hony mone.
    —Abcedarium Anglico-Latinum pro Tyrunculis, 1552
    There are many calques of the word honeymoon from English[citation needed] into other languages. The French form translates as "moon of honey" (lune de miel), as do the Spanish (luna de miel), Portuguese (lua de mel) and Italian (luna di miele) equivalents. The Welsh word for honeymoon is mis mêl, which means "honey month", and similarly theUkrainian (медовий місяць), Polish (miesiąc miodowy), Russian (медовый месяц), Arabic (شهر العسل shahr el 'assal),Greek (μήνας του μέλιτος) and Hebrew (ירח דבש yerach d'vash) versions. (Interestingly, Yerach is used for month, rather than the more common Chodesh. Yerach is related to the word Yare'ach for moon and the two words are spelled alike: ירח.) The Persian word is ماه عسل māh-e asal which means both "honey moon" and "honey month" (māh in Persian means both moon and month). The same applies to the word ay in the Turkish equivalent, balayı. In Hungarian language it is called "honey weeks" (mézeshetek). Likewise, the Tamil word for honeymoon is தேனிலவு (thaen nilavu), with thaen'honey' and nilavu 'moon', and the Marathi word for honeymoon is मधुचंद्र (madhuchandra) with Madhu 'honey' andchandra 'moon', whereas in Bangla ('Bengali') language, it is referred to as মধুচন্দ্রিমা (modhuchondrima) with modhu'honey and chondrima 'moon'.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; October 26th, 2013 at 01:55 PM. Reason: Hony Moone
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  66. #166  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
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    Trust may be compared somewhat to gambling, in one respect...one can only afford to venture as much as one would be comfortable in losing.

    In working with horses, I likewise often have to depend on trust in the knowledge that as long as I leave the option of escape available to the horse, most will elect to move away if I make them uncomfortable rather than choosing to be aggressive. Most of them...

    I must also remember to leave myself a way out if my trust turns out to be misplaced.
    Betrayed trust sucks.
    Even the one doing the betraying doesn't like what he/she is doing. It hurts both ways.
    I disagree. The person betraying trust, would not have any guilt feelings, otherwise they would not be betraying the trust.
    I have been the betrayer as well as the betrayed. There are issues with both roles, I found. Are you speaking from experience? It was a long time ago.

    I have never betrayed a soul in my life.
    I have said my say and walked away.
    And you weren't tempted to stay with the Devil you knew rather than the Devil you don't?
    No. I wasn't tempted at all. I'd rather just be honest. I don't betray confidences of people. There is no devil.
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  67. #167  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Trust may be compared somewhat to gambling, in one respect...one can only afford to venture as much as one would be comfortable in losing.

    In working with horses, I likewise often have to depend on trust in the knowledge that as long as I leave the option of escape available to the horse, most will elect to move away if I make them uncomfortable rather than choosing to be aggressive. Most of them...

    I must also remember to leave myself a way out if my trust turns out to be misplaced.
    Betrayed trust sucks.
    Even the one doing the betraying doesn't like what he/she is doing. It hurts both ways.
    I disagree. The person betraying trust, would not have any guilt feelings, otherwise they would not be betraying the trust.
    I have been the betrayer as well as the betrayed. There are issues with both roles, I found. Are you speaking from experience? It was a long time ago.

    I have never betrayed a soul in my life.
    I have said my say and walked away.
    And you weren't tempted to stay with the Devil you knew rather than the Devil you don't?
    No. I wasn't tempted at all. I'd rather just be honest. I don't betray confidences of people. There is no devil.
    To the .... you had your say and walked away.
    Least that sounds like a clean break.
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  68. #168  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Trust may be compared somewhat to gambling, in one respect...one can only afford to venture as much as one would be comfortable in losing.

    In working with horses, I likewise often have to depend on trust in the knowledge that as long as I leave the option of escape available to the horse, most will elect to move away if I make them uncomfortable rather than choosing to be aggressive. Most of them...

    I must also remember to leave myself a way out if my trust turns out to be misplaced.
    Betrayed trust sucks.
    Even the one doing the betraying doesn't like what he/she is doing. It hurts both ways.
    I disagree. The person betraying trust, would not have any guilt feelings, otherwise they would not be betraying the trust.
    I have been the betrayer as well as the betrayed. There are issues with both roles, I found. Are you speaking from experience? It was a long time ago.

    I have never betrayed a soul in my life.
    I have said my say and walked away.
    And you weren't tempted to stay with the Devil you knew rather than the Devil you don't?
    No. I wasn't tempted at all. I'd rather just be honest. I don't betray confidences of people. There is no devil.
    To the .... you had your say and walked away.
    Least that sounds like a clean break.
    It's honest. I really don't like stupidity and hypocrites. I rather if someone doesn't like me that they don't try to engage me. Simple etiquette as a greeting is fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Trust may be compared somewhat to gambling, in one respect...one can only afford to venture as much as one would be comfortable in losing.

    In working with horses, I likewise often have to depend on trust in the knowledge that as long as I leave the option of escape available to the horse, most will elect to move away if I make them uncomfortable rather than choosing to be aggressive. Most of them...

    I must also remember to leave myself a way out if my trust turns out to be misplaced.
    Betrayed trust sucks.
    Even the one doing the betraying doesn't like what he/she is doing. It hurts both ways.
    I disagree. The person betraying trust, would not have any guilt feelings, otherwise they would not be betraying the trust.
    I have been the betrayer as well as the betrayed. There are issues with both roles, I found. Are you speaking from experience? It was a long time ago.

    I have never betrayed a soul in my life.
    I have said my say and walked away.
    And you weren't tempted to stay with the Devil you knew rather than the Devil you don't?
    No. I wasn't tempted at all. I'd rather just be honest. I don't betray confidences of people. There is no devil.
    To the .... you had your say and walked away.
    Least that sounds like a clean break.
    It's honest. I really don't like stupidity and hypocrites. I rather if someone doesn't like me that they don't try to engage me. Simple etiquette as a greeting is fine.
    I thought we were talking about a relationship break-up. The way the whole conversation appears doesn't encourage long posts does it.
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  70. #170  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Robbittybob1

    I thought we were talking about a relationship break-up. The way the whole conversation appears doesn't encourage long posts does it.
    Yes, it can when they become extended. One sometimes "loses their place".

    My apologies if I caused you confusion .

    I am a SADIE SADIE Married lady (it is a song "Funny Girl")

    However when I did break up with someone in my past....it was to their face, and never easy.
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  71. #171  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Robbittybob1

    I thought we were talking about a relationship break-up. The way the whole conversation appears doesn't encourage long posts does it.
    Yes, it can when they become extended. One sometimes "loses their place".

    My apologies if I caused you confusion .

    I am a SADIE SADIE Married lady (it is a song "Funny Girl")

    However when I did break up with someone in my past....it was to their face, and never easy.
    Learned about Godspell tonight Thanks. Time for bed now.
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  72. #172  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Robbittybob1

    I thought we were talking about a relationship break-up. The way the whole conversation appears doesn't encourage long posts does it.
    Yes, it can when they become extended. One sometimes "loses their place".

    My apologies if I caused you confusion .

    I am a SADIE SADIE Married lady (it is a song "Funny Girl")

    However when I did break up with someone in my past....it was to their face, and never easy.
    Learned about Godspell tonight Thanks. Time for bed now.
    You are welcome. Great musical!
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  73. #173  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Without going into details, I was hurt by someone I once loved and trusted. Perhaps, one cannot fully love without trust. I'm over the ordeal, but the residue that remains is a significant inability for lack of a better word, to trust again.

    In discussing this with a friend, she said "you need to learn to trust again."
    I replied "isn't trust EARNED?"

    We talked a bit about it and I still came away wondering how to go about "learning" something that should come naturally, no? I think trust needs to be earned...otherwise we would invite a lot of mayhem into our lives, no? But she implied that it is something we must do.

    I was hopeful of getting some objective insight from you here, and I'd be interested in any advice you can give about trust. If you have had trust issues due to being betrayed in the past...how did you ever "learn" to trust again? I don't want to get hurt, again. I know that fear of being hurt again, drives the bus, so at least I'm aware of it, I guess.
    Perhaps you need to trust yourself with others?
    I have dealt with similar trust issues. Currently, I do not trust the girls I am "talking" to, but that just means I need to get to know them. It has been 2 or 3 years since I have been in serious romantic relationship, but feels like 5 or 7 (which I know it is not).

    The more you wait, the harder it gets to push yourself out there to meet people. Don't think of it as, I need to trust this person. I don't trust anyone I don't know. However, if either of these two girls become closer to me, the trust I choose to give will be based on system of growth-periodically. Best way to support this is to know them, and allow them to know me. First, I would prefer a mutual likeness or sense of interest.
    scheherazade and wegs like this.
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  74. #174  
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    Trust.....I live 3000 miles away from my husband.......I trust him not to tell me who he's dating and vice versa!



    JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!
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    haha.. I like how modern society views suffering as good.

    People may call my view simplistic, however humans avoid suffering when needs be. If somebody has trust issues, I'd generally empathise with them not mock them
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