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Thread: The hypocrisy of Western society

  1. #1 The hypocrisy of Western society 
    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
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    I don't know how it is in America but here in England breast-feeding is frowned upon in public. This young woman Hollie McNish has this to say about it and I think she makes some very important points that shouldn't be ignored.....

    Impassioned Public Breastfeeding Poem By Hollie McNish - LolJam.com - A social media entertainment website and portal filled with funny, interesting, and odd photoblogs.

    And talented too.


    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    The poem is amazing but its pretty sick that she should go through that. In the USA I think we are less reactive to it. I have worked in many restaurants where women would breast feed at the table while everyone else was eating. And no one ever made a fuss. Women here tend to just drape a loose shawl or a receiving blanket over her chest and the baby to give them both a little privacy. I won't say that this is the standard everywhere you go in the USA but in most of the places I have lived, and I move around a lot, this has been the norm. Most of the major shopping centers here and the nicer restaurants also provide "family" restrooms that are open for men (in case they have to bring their little daughters to the bathroom) or women to use and they usually include an area for nursing moms which include sofa's or rocking chairs separate from where the toilet stalls are located.

    I have never witnessed any women here condemning another woman for breast feeding in public. If anything they tend to rally around the woman to shield her if any would be perverts are around. I can't believe women are kicked off buses or out of businesses just for feeding their babies over there. That's horrifying.


    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    We're only disturbed by the age of that which is being breastfed.
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Yeah when I was a kid I babysat for a woman who still breast fed her four year old. I don't think she did it in public but she did it in front of me and I nearly passed out.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    I never received any issue from anyone when I fed either of my children. It's law in Australia that a woman can feed her baby in any public area. There have been cases where women have asked the cover up, stop doing it etc which have usually resulted in some swift high profile bad publicity for the venue where it took place. If anyone had said any negative comments to me when I fed my daughter in public they would have coped an ear full and a nurse in. Some shopping centres have family rooms, occasionally with very comfy chairs to feed your baby and it suits many women. When you've got more than 1 child though it's often not practical and it can also be really boring if your baby is a long feeder (the text book says newborns usually take an hour for a feed but some babies don't read the text book and can take much longer). Some mothers would prefer to be at a cafe with a coffee and who can blame them?

    I never used a shawl or cover either. I don't eat with a blanket over my head so I figure a baby wouldn't appreciate a blanket over their head. If that's what makes a woman feel comfortable though then by all means she should use it. As my babies got older it would have become a game of peekaboo with the cover anyway. No one could see anything anyway, the baby's head was in the way. If they could then they were looking too hard.

    We should bear in mind that breastfeeding can be one of the biggest challenges a woman faces in her life, it can be extraordinarily time consuming, painful, exhausting and demanding. So many women focus on getting through birth but I would wager that for most that establishing breastfeeding is by far a bigger challenge.

    As for feeding a young child, it's more common than we realise for many women to feed after what society seems an acceptable age, the problem is that it is so taboo that no one talks about it. The WHO recommends breastfeeding at least until the age of 2. It is, after all, milk designed for humans. Given all milk is breastmilk then it seems a bit odd that we have no issues drinking milk designed for baby cows yet are uncomfortable with young children having human milk. Granted we might not go and latch on to a cows udder but why should we be pressured into decanting (time consuming) when it's kept at a perfect temperature in the woman's body.

    ETA: I saw the video linked above - I think it's brilliant. There is no doubt a hypocrisy in that it's ok to flash as much boob so long as it's for sexual titillation but woe betide if it's for feeding a baby. The best example of this is the Facebook policy of not allowing photos of babies being breastfed to be posted but allowing hyper-sexualised images of woman. The irony is that you see far less boob in any breastfeeding photo.
    Last edited by Busy Bee; July 10th, 2013 at 05:29 AM. Reason: I have more to say!!
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    For me the reason I nearly passed out at the sight of a 4 year old being breastfed is because he had teeth and i thought he was chewing on her. Also I was only 10 myself at the time. I had never seen a child breastfed beyond the age of 2 at that time and haven't seen it since.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Ascended Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I don't get why it should be this issue at all really, I see breast feeding as a normal natural thing to do, this thing about other
    women complaining about breast feeding what's that all about?, you'd have thought if anyone should be supportive and understanding
    then it's other women. Just why is that some folks are so squeamish about it anyway? Also what's with the thing about it being a
    turn on? really haven't people ever seen a breast before! Don't get that one at all.

    So with all the new portable formula mixers and self heating bottles it seems rare enough for women to breast feed whilst out and
    about so why should it be made any harder?, if people don't like seeing it then don't watch and same goes for people who find a it
    turn on.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I don't get why it should be this issue at all really, I see breast feeding as a normal natural thing to do, this thing about other
    women complaining about breast feeding what's that all about?, you'd have thought if anyone should be supportive and understanding
    then it's other women. Just why is that some folks are so squeamish about it anyway? Also what's with the thing about it being a
    turn on? really haven't people ever seen a breast before! Don't get that one at all.

    So with all the new portable formula mixers and self heating bottles it seems rare enough for women to breast feed whilst out and
    about so why should it be made any harder?, if people don't like seeing it then don't watch and same goes for people who find a it
    turn on.
    Providing support is a personal choice. While some might stay abreast of the current politics, tittering over a public breast feeding is the folly of a jughead.


    By the way, your phone did something funny with your post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    For me the reason I nearly passed out at the sight of a 4 year old being breastfed is because he had teeth and i thought he was chewing on her. Also I was only 10 myself at the time. I had never seen a child breastfed beyond the age of 2 at that time and haven't seen it since.
    Ah yes, the teeth. I fed my daughter until she was 18 months so she had a full set of front teeth. Biting can be an issue but they can bite long before they have teeth and my babies had gums of steel. (Think "Jaws" in the old Bond movies)
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    I confess I never perceived the UK as a particularly avant-garde progressive society, but Im a bit surprised, I would not have expected breast feeding to be an issue.
    Who is offended anyway? Why?

    (Its unrelated but Im hearing more than one good thing about Australia's society. I should visit if I get a chance.)
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    my wife breastfed our twins
    quite the challenge at first---took her awhile for "let down" when the milk would actually flow.
    The dog I had for many years before I met her would position himself in front of her, and charge at me(his long time master) with teeth bared and a deep growl if I seemed to be moving into their space too quickly.
    She joined the "la leche league" a group of breastfeeding women. At one of their picnics, a five year old came over to the picnic bench where we were sitting and chatting, as she approached her mom, her mom produced a breast for her. A quick drink, and the child was off, running and playing with the other children. It seemed a comfort thing rather than nutritional.
    My father in law teased his daughter, saying, "You know, you're gonna have to stop doing that when they go off to college".
    When the teeth arrived, the boys made the mistake of biting--------bam, the milk stopped as she pushed the child away. It took awhile to get the flow going again, and the boys learned to not do that. Maybe, at most, a shocking, painful week or two, they seemed to be quick learners.

    I seem to remember a court case from around that time, wherein someone wanted a woman arrested for indecent exposure for breastfeeding in public.
    The case was settled in favor of the woman, the judges finding nothing indecent in breastfeeding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I confess I never perceived the UK as a particularly avant-garde progressive society, but Im a bit surprised, I would not have expected breast feeding to be an issue.
    Who is offended anyway? Why?

    (Its unrelated but Im hearing more than one good thing about Australia's society. I should visit if I get a chance.)
    It think some of it is embarrassment - particularly with the older generations. As a general rule the Brits have always been a bit prudish but other than that I don't know why we are so difficult about it here. There is a small coffee shop restaurant near here with a sign that says please breast feed in the facilities provided (ie not the dining room). But she is quite right, in a country where having topless models in newspapers is defended to the hilt there shouldn't be even a whisper about breast-feeding in public.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    I'm a guy... so maybe I just don't understand. It just seems to me that if I was breastfeeding an infant, I would want to do that in private.

    I prefer to pee in private, too.

    I understand that the infant won't always allow for that so if a mom needs to nurse, she should be able to do so without being harassed. That is a time to be supportive, not absurd.
    Even so, if I were that mom, I'd still want to go somewhere as private as possible.
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    I seem to recall a recent event here in the US, I think it was NYC (i heard about it on the radio) where there was a group of feminists protesting unfair public decency laws. That men are allowed to walk around in public with no shirt so women should be as well. I don't disagree with it but I don't know if it had any effect. Breasts are certainly not genitalia and they shouldn't be treated as such.


    edit: Ok it seems I found something that is probably related to what I heard on the radio.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/ny...less.html?_r=0
    Each complaint against her was dismissed or dropped, her lawyers said, for one simple reason: The state’s highest court ruled more than two decades ago that baring one’s chest in public — for noncommercial activity — is perfectly legal for a woman, as it is for a man.
    So in NYC you don't even have to be breast feeding. If you just want to take your top off because it's hot you can do so. I hope the other states follow suit. I hate wearing a shirt on a hot day.
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    Has anybody here heard of a breast pump. They aren't very expensive and they don't have teeth. You can always have bottles made up in advance for any of those trips with baby when it might be more comfortable than pulling out a breast in public. Plus it has a side benefit of getting the kid used to the bottle.

    One of the main reasons for breast feeding is transferring the mothers antibodies to the baby, however only a few months are needed for that and also only a few months for some heavy duty bonding. I would say any breast feeding beyond 4 months is over kill on the breast feeding.

    Anyway that's my 2 cents worth for this topic and I'm not looking for a fight about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Has anybody here heard of a breast pump. They aren't very expensive and they don't have teeth. You can always have bottles made up in advance for any of those trips with baby when it might be more comfortable than pulling out a breast in public. Plus it has a side benefit of getting the kid used to the bottle.

    One of the main reasons for breast feeding is transferring the mothers antibodies to the baby, however only a few months are needed for that and also only a few months for some heavy duty bonding. I would say any breast feeding beyond 4 months is over kill on the breast feeding.

    Anyway that's my 2 cents worth for this topic and I'm not looking for a fight about it.
    I had a breast pump, those things hurt more than the baby feeding. There is nothing more dehumanizing than attaching a machine to your breast the way they milk cows. I often wonder how some men can bring themselves to use penis pumps to get an erection.

    I wasn't able to breast feed past two months because I went on the pill to prevent pregnancy and my doctor didn't tell me it would cause my milk to dry up fast. Also prepumping milk isn't as convenient as you would think. The breast tends to produce milk as it is needed. you simply can't pump out a whole gallon at once and expect it to keep all day long. It separates and gets nasty pretty fast even in the fridge. And if you are at work, your milk will flow every few hours whether the baby is there or not meaning you would still need breaks to go pump and hope there is a safe place to store it. Meanwhile baby is with the sitter with no fresh milk while his/her good stuff is going to waste in a bottle somewhere.
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    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Has anybody here heard of a breast pump. They aren't very expensive and they don't have teeth. You can always have bottles made up in advance for any of those trips with baby when it might be more comfortable than pulling out a breast in public. Plus it has a side benefit of getting the kid used to the bottle.

    One of the main reasons for breast feeding is transferring the mothers antibodies to the baby, however only a few months are needed for that and also only a few months for some heavy duty bonding. I would say any breast feeding beyond 4 months is over kill on the breast feeding.

    Anyway that's my 2 cents worth for this topic and I'm not looking for a fight about it.
    Your two cents worth is missing the point though....anyone who wants to go out with their baby (and not use a breast pump - I have heard they are not pleasant but don't know for sure) and needs to feed them should be able to do so freely, without embarrassment or getting thrown off a bus for it or have to sit in a dirty toilet and do it. Global health info from WHO recommends 6 months of breast feeding.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    I found a website that is helpful in finding ways for working moms to go to work and still breast feed. It also highlights some of the challenges working moms face.

    I especially like the idea of a company that provides on site daycare and allowing nursing moms to take breastfeeding breaks. But in general only large corporations would likely to be able to afford to provide such accommodations. Maybe if companies got a tax break for doing so, more would follow suit.

    Nursing and Employment | Nursing Mothers Inc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    or have to sit in a dirty toilet and do it.
    Absurd. I would never want to Dine in a toilet.
    Making a breastfeeding mother go to the Public Poop Area is madness.

    But Bad Robot had a point: It's a part of life so plan ahead.
    While a breastfeeding mother should not be subjected to harassment etc., there is nothing to stop her from planning her days accordingly.

    Can a man just pee anywhere? I mean, he can whip it out, take a whizz and you'd never see anything other than a stream and his back.

    But we can't. We're not allowed.
    What if I REALLY gotta go? I get forced to go into a dirty restroom where other people poop to do it. Do you see my point?

    It sometimes seems as though some people believe they are entitled to a bit more. And this becomes the point of contention, here.

    A breastfeeding mother should not be forced into a dirty bathroom stall. She should not be oggled or harassed in any manner.
    But just as anyone else must take care of private functions in private- she should plan her day so she can do her best to take care of her private functions in private. Should that be enforced?
    NO.
    It's a personal choice to have class.

    So, a woman can stick her bare stinky feet up on the dash of a car with her toes wiggling out the window if she wants.
    I can see that and look away disgusted and mutter to myself, "She should know better than to be so uncouth" if I want.
    I cannot force her to Have Some Class.
    And she cannot enforce being Entitled onto me. Because I won't allow her In my car or to stick her bare stinky feet out the window like that In My Car.
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    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
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    I don't get women.

    When you ASK to see their boobs, they slap you.

    When they want to breast feed, you're not allowed to ask them to put their boobs away.

    It the whole show-your-cleavage-but-get-mad-at-me-when-I-stare-at-it thing all over again.
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    So, don't ask. Just wait patiently and silently.
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    What's considered classy or uncouth varies from one group to another however. I agree that feet sticking out the window grosses me out, but I've done it before. I have seen women who make a big fuss and do everything they can to draw attention to the fact that they are breastfeeding and then get offended when people throw her dirty looks. I consider that uncouth. They claim they are being discriminated against for breastfeeding when in reality people are snubbing their noses at her intentionally making a spectacle of herself. But I don't think a bare breast feeding a baby in general is uncouth. It's all subjective. We see Nat Geo shows where third world tribal women do not wear shirts and no one ever gets freaked out by it, because we accept that it's their culture and acceptable there. But we have minor freak outs over first world breasts? The west really is hypocritical.

    I know there are plenty of men who are shy or conservative that regardless of their build, whether hunky or obese, will not walk around bare chested in public. But they don't tend to make a fuss if some other guy does, at least they don't tend to complain openly about it. The double standard that a woman should cover her breasts at all times regardless of her reason for exposing them is not fair.

    I also realize that there are many people who prefer to eat in private. I don't like to eat in public anymore since I have trouble chewing. But there is no rule or law written or otherwise that eating should be a private affair or that feeding a baby should be a private affair. Most breastfeeding moms here (USA) do prefer to cover up, it may be due to peer pressure or it could be modesty. But it should be their choice. And I don't think choosing to openly breastfeed should earn them a label of being low class or uncouth.

    If they are making a big whopping deal about it drawing as much attention as possible in order to accuse people of victimizing them, then I consider that to be as obnoxious any scene from Jersey Shore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I don't get women.

    When you ASK to see their boobs, they slap you.

    When they want to breast feed, you're not allowed to ask them to put their boobs away.

    It the whole show-your-cleavage-but-get-mad-at-me-when-I-stare-at-it thing all over again.
    lol I have never cared if people stared. It's funny to see people walk into light polls because they have a juvenile reaction to something that is regularly displayed on tv, the internet, magazines, cartoons... It's just bʘʘbs.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    lol I have never cared if people stared. It's funny to see people walk into light polls because they have a juvenile reaction to something that is regularly displayed on tv, the internet, magazines, cartoons... It's just bʘʘbs.
    I almost never see boobs in person. I feel like I'm hanging out at all the wrong places.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    lol I have never cared if people stared. It's funny to see people walk into light polls because they have a juvenile reaction to something that is regularly displayed on tv, the internet, magazines, cartoons... It's just bʘʘbs.
    I almost never see boobs in person. I feel like I'm hanging out at all the wrong places.
    Hey pop down to the bank and take out $300 - $400 then just nip off down to "Joes's Titty Bar", *substitute as appropriate for local such establishment*, find a spot amongst the rest of guys and watch tit's galore! Hey got to be more sexy than trying to catch a glimpse of a mother trying to feed her child, kind of creepy.
    Me, well I just prefer my girlfriends and they're more readily available.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    lol I have never cared if people stared. It's funny to see people walk into light polls because they have a juvenile reaction to something that is regularly displayed on tv, the internet, magazines, cartoons... It's just bʘʘbs.
    I almost never see boobs in person. I feel like I'm hanging out at all the wrong places.
    Personally I usually like my imagination better than what most women have to show, but a young well shaped breast is hard to beat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Has anybody here heard of a breast pump. They aren't very expensive and they don't have teeth. You can always have bottles made up in advance for any of those trips with baby when it might be more comfortable than pulling out a breast in public. Plus it has a side benefit of getting the kid used to the bottle.

    One of the main reasons for breast feeding is transferring the mothers antibodies to the baby, however only a few months are needed for that and also only a few months for some heavy duty bonding. I would say any breast feeding beyond 4 months is over kill on the breast feeding.

    Anyway that's my 2 cents worth for this topic and I'm not looking for a fight about it.
    There are a number of issues with expressing milk.
    - It's time consuming. It would take me about 3 sessions of about 30 minutes at a time to produce enough milk for 1 good feed. Women have wildly different experiences in expressing milk in that some can express a whole bottle in about 10 minutes, others not a drop even though they have a good supply for their baby.
    - It can affect supply. Breastfeeding is a demand supply relationship and it can be a delicate balance. Expressing milk in between feeds is a way to increase supply but if that supply is increased without essential 'need' it can increase risk of over supply, blocked ducts and mastitis which is extremely painful.
    - Some babies don't take bottles no matter how hard you try. I had one of those babies.
    - Breastfeeding on demand is encouraged but sometimes you don't know if your baby wants a good feed or just a quick drink. It would be really upsetting and frustrating to warm a bottle of expressed milk to find out that your baby only wants a quick drink. The rest of the milk would need to be used as it can't be re-heated.
    - Logistics of having to find somewhere to warm a bottle. Expressed milk cannot be warmed in a microwave, it should be warmed in the bottle in some hot water.
    - Having to wash and sterilise bottles and pump, very time consuming.
    - Having to carry a bottle around at keep it at optimum temperature. A mother already has to carry around nappies/diapers, spare clothes and all the other paraphernalia needed for a baby. Anything to lighten the load is a blessing.
    - Why should a mother have to bother with any of the above when she's got 2 perfectly good boobs that keep the milk at the right temperature?

    There are a long list of health benefits that babies receive from breastfeeding that don't automatically stop after 4 months. Why would you feed a baby milk designed for a cow (which is what formula is based on) rather than milk designed for humans, moreover, milk designed for that specific baby. Are you aware that a mother makes milk specifically for her baby, as in it's content changes depending on what the baby needs.
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    ▼▼ dn ʎɐʍ sıɥʇ ▼▼ RedPanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Me, well I just prefer my girlfriends and they're more readily available.
    Was there meant to be an apostrophe?
    Or are you a player?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Has anybody here heard of a breast pump. They aren't very expensive and they don't have teeth. You can always have bottles made up in advance for any of those trips with baby when it might be more comfortable than pulling out a breast in public. Plus it has a side benefit of getting the kid used to the bottle.

    One of the main reasons for breast feeding is transferring the mothers antibodies to the baby, however only a few months are needed for that and also only a few months for some heavy duty bonding. I would say any breast feeding beyond 4 months is over kill on the breast feeding.

    Anyway that's my 2 cents worth for this topic and I'm not looking for a fight about it.
    There are a number of issues with expressing milk.
    - It's time consuming. It would take me about 3 sessions of about 30 minutes at a time to produce enough milk for 1 good feed. Women have wildly different experiences in expressing milk in that some can express a whole bottle in about 10 minutes, others not a drop even though they have a good supply for their baby.
    - It can affect supply. Breastfeeding is a demand supply relationship and it can be a delicate balance. Expressing milk in between feeds is a way to increase supply but if that supply is increased without essential 'need' it can increase risk of over supply, blocked ducts and mastitis which is extremely painful.
    - Some babies don't take bottles no matter how hard you try. I had one of those babies.
    - Breastfeeding on demand is encouraged but sometimes you don't know if your baby wants a good feed or just a quick drink. It would be really upsetting and frustrating to warm a bottle of expressed milk to find out that your baby only wants a quick drink. The rest of the milk would need to be used as it can't be re-heated.
    - Logistics of having to find somewhere to warm a bottle. Expressed milk cannot be warmed in a microwave, it should be warmed in the bottle in some hot water.
    - Having to wash and sterilise bottles and pump, very time consuming.
    - Having to carry a bottle around at keep it at optimum temperature. A mother already has to carry around nappies/diapers, spare clothes and all the other paraphernalia needed for a baby. Anything to lighten the load is a blessing.
    - Why should a mother have to bother with any of the above when she's got 2 perfectly good boobs that keep the milk at the right temperature?

    There are a long list of health benefits that babies receive from breastfeeding that don't automatically stop after 4 months. Why would you feed a baby milk designed for a cow (which is what formula is based on) rather than milk designed for humans, moreover, milk designed for that specific baby. Are you aware that a mother makes milk specifically for her baby, as in it's content changes depending on what the baby needs.
    I'd add in the psychological benefit to the infant, and the bonding between mother and child that is strengthened by breastfeeding.
    We ain't machines, and machines cannot replace us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Has anybody here heard of a breast pump. They aren't very expensive and they don't have teeth. You can always have bottles made up in advance for any of those trips with baby when it might be more comfortable than pulling out a breast in public. Plus it has a side benefit of getting the kid used to the bottle.

    One of the main reasons for breast feeding is transferring the mothers antibodies to the baby, however only a few months are needed for that and also only a few months for some heavy duty bonding. I would say any breast feeding beyond 4 months is over kill on the breast feeding.

    Anyway that's my 2 cents worth for this topic and I'm not looking for a fight about it.
    There are a number of issues with expressing milk.
    - It's time consuming. It would take me about 3 sessions of about 30 minutes at a time to produce enough milk for 1 good feed. Women have wildly different experiences in expressing milk in that some can express a whole bottle in about 10 minutes, others not a drop even though they have a good supply for their baby.
    - It can affect supply. Breastfeeding is a demand supply relationship and it can be a delicate balance. Expressing milk in between feeds is a way to increase supply but if that supply is increased without essential 'need' it can increase risk of over supply, blocked ducts and mastitis which is extremely painful.
    - Some babies don't take bottles no matter how hard you try. I had one of those babies.
    - Breastfeeding on demand is encouraged but sometimes you don't know if your baby wants a good feed or just a quick drink. It would be really upsetting and frustrating to warm a bottle of expressed milk to find out that your baby only wants a quick drink. The rest of the milk would need to be used as it can't be re-heated.
    - Logistics of having to find somewhere to warm a bottle. Expressed milk cannot be warmed in a microwave, it should be warmed in the bottle in some hot water.
    - Having to wash and sterilise bottles and pump, very time consuming.
    - Having to carry a bottle around at keep it at optimum temperature. A mother already has to carry around nappies/diapers, spare clothes and all the other paraphernalia needed for a baby. Anything to lighten the load is a blessing.
    - Why should a mother have to bother with any of the above when she's got 2 perfectly good boobs that keep the milk at the right temperature?

    There are a long list of health benefits that babies receive from breastfeeding that don't automatically stop after 4 months. Why would you feed a baby milk designed for a cow (which is what formula is based on) rather than milk designed for humans, moreover, milk designed for that specific baby. Are you aware that a mother makes milk specifically for her baby, as in it's content changes depending on what the baby needs.
    Well Damn! Considering how much trouble babies are, I'm surprised at how popular they are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Has anybody here heard of a breast pump. They aren't very expensive and they don't have teeth. You can always have bottles made up in advance for any of those trips with baby when it might be more comfortable than pulling out a breast in public. Plus it has a side benefit of getting the kid used to the bottle.

    One of the main reasons for breast feeding is transferring the mothers antibodies to the baby, however only a few months are needed for that and also only a few months for some heavy duty bonding. I would say any breast feeding beyond 4 months is over kill on the breast feeding.

    Anyway that's my 2 cents worth for this topic and I'm not looking for a fight about it.
    There are a number of issues with expressing milk.
    - It's time consuming. It would take me about 3 sessions of about 30 minutes at a time to produce enough milk for 1 good feed. Women have wildly different experiences in expressing milk in that some can express a whole bottle in about 10 minutes, others not a drop even though they have a good supply for their baby.
    - It can affect supply. Breastfeeding is a demand supply relationship and it can be a delicate balance. Expressing milk in between feeds is a way to increase supply but if that supply is increased without essential 'need' it can increase risk of over supply, blocked ducts and mastitis which is extremely painful.
    - Some babies don't take bottles no matter how hard you try. I had one of those babies.
    - Breastfeeding on demand is encouraged but sometimes you don't know if your baby wants a good feed or just a quick drink. It would be really upsetting and frustrating to warm a bottle of expressed milk to find out that your baby only wants a quick drink. The rest of the milk would need to be used as it can't be re-heated.
    - Logistics of having to find somewhere to warm a bottle. Expressed milk cannot be warmed in a microwave, it should be warmed in the bottle in some hot water.
    - Having to wash and sterilise bottles and pump, very time consuming.
    - Having to carry a bottle around at keep it at optimum temperature. A mother already has to carry around nappies/diapers, spare clothes and all the other paraphernalia needed for a baby. Anything to lighten the load is a blessing.
    - Why should a mother have to bother with any of the above when she's got 2 perfectly good boobs that keep the milk at the right temperature?

    There are a long list of health benefits that babies receive from breastfeeding that don't automatically stop after 4 months. Why would you feed a baby milk designed for a cow (which is what formula is based on) rather than milk designed for humans, moreover, milk designed for that specific baby. Are you aware that a mother makes milk specifically for her baby, as in it's content changes depending on what the baby needs.
    Well Damn! Considering how much trouble babies are, I'm surprised at how popular they are.
    If it weren't for the biochemical reward system in the brain, I'm sure our species would have died out a very long time ago.
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    Breast pumps!!

    I know some people use them with no problem at all. But the breast pump caused me All. The. Problems. with breasts and nipples that the babies never managed to do. Hated the horrible things.

    There's enough pain and anguish associated with child-bearing and breast feeding without that. I give women who do manage breast pumps successfully all my admiration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Breast pumps!!

    I know some people use them with no problem at all. But the breast pump caused me All. The. Problems. with breasts and nipples that the babies never managed to do. Hated the horrible things.

    There's enough pain and anguish associated with child-bearing and breast feeding without that. I give women who do manage breast pumps successfully all my admiration.
    I knew a women that used it and never complained. But she made sure to get a specific brand that was recommended as the best. I can only assume not all breast pumps are made equal. But until this topic I never gave it much thought before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Breast pumps!!

    I know some people use them with no problem at all. But the breast pump caused me All. The. Problems. with breasts and nipples that the babies never managed to do. Hated the horrible things.

    There's enough pain and anguish associated with child-bearing and breast feeding without that. I give women who do manage breast pumps successfully all my admiration.
    I knew a women that used it and never complained. But she made sure to get a specific brand that was recommended as the best. I can only assume not all breast pumps are made equal. But until this topic I never gave it much thought before.
    That's the problem with men, they just don't really think about bʘʘbs enough...
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    lol I have never cared if people stared. It's funny to see people walk into light polls because they have a juvenile reaction to something that is regularly displayed on tv, the internet, magazines, cartoons... It's just bʘʘbs.
    I almost never see boobs in person. I feel like I'm hanging out at all the wrong places.
    I recommend Cote D'Azur in Southern France, you get to meet people travelling from all over Europe, its great. The weather's nice too.

    I dont think Ive started per say, though it was difficult not to, but for some reason Im staring at Seagypsy's word bʘʘbs, I am hypnotized, what are we talking about? Where am I? Oh yeah

    That's the problem with men, they just don't really think about bʘʘbs enough...
    What, what are we not thinking about? I can barely see the "about" and "enough" on either side, I cant read the start of the sentence
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    That's the problem with men, they just don't really think about bʘʘbs enough...
    you mean, aside from a constant focusing on them?

    In an old sci.fi. flick women had eyes in their boobs so that it was easier for men to make eye contact
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I don't get women.

    When you ASK to see their boobs, they slap you.

    When they want to breast feed, you're not allowed to ask them to put their boobs away.

    It the whole show-your-cleavage-but-get-mad-at-me-when-I-stare-at-it thing all over again.
    No it isn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    or have to sit in a dirty toilet and do it.
    Absurd. I would never want to Dine in a toilet.
    Making a breastfeeding mother go to the Public Poop Area is madness.

    But Bad Robot had a point: It's a part of life so plan ahead.
    While a breastfeeding mother should not be subjected to harassment etc., there is nothing to stop her from planning her days accordingly.

    Can a man just pee anywhere? I mean, he can whip it out, take a whizz and you'd never see anything other than a stream and his back.

    But we can't. We're not allowed.
    What if I REALLY gotta go? I get forced to go into a dirty restroom where other people poop to do it. Do you see my point?

    It sometimes seems as though some people believe they are entitled to a bit more. And this becomes the point of contention, here.

    A breastfeeding mother should not be forced into a dirty bathroom stall. She should not be oggled or harassed in any manner.
    But just as anyone else must take care of private functions in private- she should plan her day so she can do her best to take care of her private functions in private. Should that be enforced?
    NO.
    It's a personal choice to have class.
    I'm sorry, but what exactly does peeing have to do with breastfeeding?

    Do you often equate the feeding of a child with urinating? Is it even in the same league?

    It just seems to be a very strange comparison to make.

    A breastfeeding mother is feeding her baby. Would you expect a bottle-feeding mother to plan ahead and make sure she can take care of her private functions in private? Since you are equating the feeding of a child as being a private function and comparing it to you dropping your pants and whipping out your penis in public to urinate and all.

    And insinuating that she has no class if she does it in public. Dark ages here we come!

    Firstly, not every woman is able to find or access private areas to breastfeed when out with her child. I am sure if given the choice of being compared to a man or woman peeing in public when she is forced to feed her child in public, she would probably take the private option instead of having people watch her and make such ridiculous and obscene comparisons. So her choices are quite limited. She can can either do her job and be a good parent and feed her child when her child demands it, public or not, or she can let her child scream and remain hungry because somewhere, out there, there will be some individual who equates her breastfeeding to peeing in public and might find it as offensive as someone urinating in public and heaven forbid she offends such individuals. Or she can just never go out while her baby is breastfeeding lest she offends the delicate sensibilities of people who view breastfeeding as a bodily function like peeing.

    Because with breastfeeding, you pretty much let the baby decide when it will be fed. It's called demand feeding and the woman's breast quite literally works to the baby's schedule, not the other way around. While you may expect women to work their schedules so they can breastfeed in private, that is not always possible because it is the baby that sets that schedule. With baby formula, you can have a schedule because it is not demand feeding. With breastfeeding, it is the child's call when the baby feeds.



    Quote Originally Posted by adelady
    Breast pumps!!

    I know some people use them with no problem at all. But the breast pump caused me All. The. Problems. with breasts and nipples that the babies never managed to do. Hated the horrible things.

    There's enough pain and anguish associated with child-bearing and breast feeding without that. I give women who do manage breast pumps successfully all my admiration.
    Oh I remember trying them with my two son's. The pain and horror was terrible. The electric ones were the worst. All the advertising of how it massages the breast, and simulates a child breastfeeding is bunk. I remember the breastfeeding nurse encouraging me to use a breast pump on the other breast while breastfeeding to encourage the letdown and my God. The problems it caused.. blocked ducts and swelling and the pain. I remember sitting there bawling my eyes out, trying to learn to breastfeed and get the baby to attach properly and she was trying to attach a pump at the same time and I came apart at he seams. So we stopped and just let the baby feed and let nature take it's course. When I had my second child, I was a bit more mentally prepared for the initial horror that was breastfeeding and a friend recommended the Avent manual breast pump and it wasn't too bad. But my second refused to even touch a bottle. I breastfed both my children until they were 13 months and 18 months respectively. And frankly, it was the best thing I had ever done. I breastfed on demand and in those early days it was a nightmare. But once we got into the rhythm of feeding, it was amazing. Probably one of the best positive experiences I had with my children and one I am looking forward to with Numero 3.

    As for feeding in public, in Australia, it is illegal to discriminate against women who feed in public. There are helplines for breastfeeding mother's to call, support lines that are available 24/7, who provide advice and care for women who are having issues with feeding. There are specialist midwives who specialise in breastfeeding in hospitals. I mean here you are encouraged to feed until the baby is a year old and later if possible. There are so many benefits to the baby and to the mother as well. It's a shame that situations like in the OP happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    I'm sorry, but what exactly does peeing have to do with breastfeeding?

    Do you often equate the feeding of a child with urinating? Is it even in the same league?

    It just seems to be a very strange comparison to make.
    Really just where did you get this idea from? It seems more than clear to everybody else that Neverfly was explaining that mothers should be allowed to breast feed in normal establishments without being forced to go into a rest room to do it in private, he never mentioned anything about urinating. He was very articulate in his point, one that seems fair and reasonable that I'm sure most right thinking people would agree with, so really why or how have you managed to get hold of the wrong end of the stick?

    Is it that you are really so unaware of the problems that some mothers face in being banished to feed their children in private because of proprietors banning women from feeding their children in public? If this is the case let me firmly assure to you that this practice does take as many mothers can confirm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I don't get women.

    When you ASK to see their boobs, they slap you.

    When they want to breast feed, you're not allowed to ask them to put their boobs away.

    It the whole show-your-cleavage-but-get-mad-at-me-when-I-stare-at-it thing all over again.
    No it isn't.
    When it comes to men and boobs, our IQ is about 50% of normal. So, trust me, it is.

    It is funny how yet another double standard applies in this situation. Would any man complain about a woman with nice boobs breast-feeding her kid in plain sight?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I don't get women.

    When you ASK to see their boobs, they slap you.

    When they want to breast feed, you're not allowed to ask them to put their boobs away.

    It the whole show-your-cleavage-but-get-mad-at-me-when-I-stare-at-it thing all over again.
    No it isn't.
    When it comes to men and boobs, our IQ is about 50% of normal. So, trust me, it is.

    It is funny how yet another double standard applies in this situation. Would any man complain about a woman with nice boobs breast-feeding her kid in plain sight?
    I can imagine some uber religious few, but usually the people i hear complain the most are old ladies or the ones with insecurity issues that assume that every woman out there is competition. I heard a girl in her 20's complaining once saying that a breastfeeding mom was just being an exhibitionist and trying to cause problems in good relationships. All the while she was wearing a tight fitting low cut belly shirt and daisy duke shorts. So I asked her why she was trying to cause problems in good relationships. Then went on to point out, that even if the woman was showing off, she wouldn't be able to cause problems in GOOD relationships, just those that are barely hanging on as it is. She got mad at me and went away. But the only time I have heard men complain is when they are really old and religious, don't like the race of the woman doing it or if she is perceived as terribly unattractive and/or obese. I'm sure there are other cases that will contradict my observations, but I'm just stating what my observations are.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    he never mentioned anything about urinating.
    I did, actually... I'll cover that now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    I'm sorry, but what exactly does peeing have to do with breastfeeding?

    Do you often equate the feeding of a child with urinating?
    It just seems to be a very strange comparison to make.
    What I said was clear.
    I, for one, am tired of the entitlement attitude.
    The point has been made, with some mirth, that women will act very private about their breasts, will complain that men look at them, etc., but when it comes to breastfeeding, suddenly it's OK for them to publicly unclothe one? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
    It's a Private function just as other functions are private.
    Asking if I often equate breastfeeding with urinating, etc, looks far more like you're trying to pick a fight than pay attention to what is said in a discussion.
    I made the point that while no one can make perfect plans, it's just a part of life and it's not up to everyone else to deal with your life occurrences-- I said she can do her best to plan her days effectively- not make Entitlement Demands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    A breastfeeding mother is feeding her baby. Would you expect a bottle-feeding mother to plan ahead and make sure she can take care of her private functions in private?
    Not in that sense. Because she already did plan ahead- she took bottle. Other than that- YES. I would expect her to adhere to the same public standards I must adhere to.
    A bottle is not sudden public exposure, now is it? If I cannot expose my stuff in public for a normal and natural function, neither can you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    And insinuating that she has no class if she does it in public. Dark ages here we come!
    You like using this word, "Insinuate."
    I didn't insinuate it- I said clearly that some behaviors lack Class.
    I did not say, however, that any woman that breastfeeds in public has no class.
    You really need to work on your reading comprehension skills and learn how to balance that against your immediate emotional reaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Firstly, not every woman is able to find or access private areas to breastfeed when out with her child.
    Agreed. And the class act in such a situation is to handle it in a way that she is not demanding entitlement or exposing herself to other people.
    She should not be harassed, kicked out of an establishment or sent to the dirty public restroom.
    I would encourage some establishments to do Customer Service and provide an area for it if it is a common occurance or be able to direct customers in need to a clean and private secure location.
    After-all, that is what most do for OTHER private functions. Unless it's a cheap or shady establishment, in which case, that's what you get for going in there. You get what you pay for.

    Here is where your reading comprehension should come in. So read what I say. If you come back with witty retorts and insults, rather than a toned response, I will just ignore them.
    Many methods were discussed in this thread already of being classy about an uncomfortable situation.
    One.) Plan ahead. While an infant is not always predictable, many follow a basic schedule.
    Two.) Take a shawl. There was one objection about "I wouldn't like my head wrapped while I was eating" Well, that is a grown adults opinion. I wouldn't like to wear a diaper, either and one filled with pee would really bother me. Infants are not always so bothered. If the infant is bothered by the shawl, try another method.
    Three.) Post-Maternity clothing: There are shirts designed to breastfeed, that enable quick and easy access for the infant but do not cause exposure.
    Four.) Take a bottle of formula with you when you go out in public, if the baby is tolerant of it.
    That's just four, I'm sure many more can be thought up.

    I know you don't like the comparison, but Too Bad. Needing to pee or even getting the runs is not always predictable. It can sure feel like an emergency. But no one gets to engage in public exposure just because they really gotta go. Having class means a man doesn't stand on the sidewalk and take a whiz. Yes, I am clearly saying that a man that pees on the sidewalk lacks class. Are we heading for the dark ages?
    It's a perfectly normal and natural function. Everyone does it. In society, it is considered private. You do Not Get Special Treatment.
    You are not entitled to it just for getting pregnant. Rats also get pregnant. It's nothing special.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    She can can either do her job and be a good parent and feed her child when her child demands it, public or not, or she can let her child scream and remain hungry because somewhere, out there, there will be some individual who equates her breastfeeding to peeing in public and might find it as offensive as someone urinating in public and heaven forbid she offends such individuals.
    I don't find it offensive.
    I find it an entitlement attitude of "I can do what I want" and "I deserve to do what You cannot do because I say so."
    The baby won't starve- it's an inconvenience, one of many, and a normal part of parenting. It's not an immediate demand that she stops, then and there and start nursing--- She has more options than you claim.

    You are attempting to Make It Appear I am advocating in opposition of the O.P. I am not. Stop it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    people who view breastfeeding as a bodily function like peeing.
    It IS a natural bodily function- are you saying it isn't?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Because with breastfeeding, you pretty much let the baby decide when it will be fed. It's called demand feeding and the woman's breast quite literally works to the baby's schedule, not the other way around. While you may expect women to work their schedules so they can breastfeed in private, that is not always possible because it is the baby that sets that schedule. With baby formula, you can have a schedule because it is not demand feeding. With breastfeeding, it is the child's call when the baby feeds.
    Don't assume that just because I'm male, I'm ignorant.

    I got news for you- I singly raised my son - that is, as a man, on my own- From when he was born.
    I was the only one getting up at night.
    I was the one changing all the diapers.
    I was the one feeding him.
    I was the one kissing the boo boos and giving the hugs, the kiss goodnight and I was the one carrying him. Everywhere I went (Work excluded), I secured the car seat, locked him in it, drove to location, got him from his seat and he did Not leave my arms until it was time to put him back in it.
    I was the one entertaining him, washing his clothes, setting up his toys, teaching him, feeding him, picking out formula, struggling to find a kind he seemed to like and later, picking out jars of baby food.

    AND I was doing this working Full Time as a Licensed Plumber. Try being a man in a professional Blue Collar Job balancing the needs of an infant.
    I don't HAVE breasts. Imagine how it was for me. You think I don't know?
    Let me tell you something:
    I AM A MOM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    It's a shame that situations like in the OP happen.
    Agreed.

    But just because one group handles something poorly does not mean that another group most go to extremes at the other end of the scale.

    Parenting is often inconvenient and stressful. Deal With it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I don't get women.

    When you ASK to see their boobs, they slap you.

    When they want to breast feed, you're not allowed to ask them to put their boobs away.

    It the whole show-your-cleavage-but-get-mad-at-me-when-I-stare-at-it thing all over again.
    No it isn't.
    When it comes to men and boobs, our IQ is about 50% of normal. So, trust me, it is.

    It is funny how yet another double standard applies in this situation. Would any man complain about a woman with nice boobs breast-feeding her kid in plain sight?
    Much as I normally enjoy your posts your input here seems to be of Mike Potter standard - I think you are being generous when you are saying 50%. And obviously yes some men would complain about a woman breast-feeding her child or she wouldn't have to feed her baby in the toilet in the first place. If you cant keep your wits about you on this subject maybe you should just refrain from commenting.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    old highschool joke:

    Why is mother's milk better for babies than cows milk?

    It comes prewarmed.
    It is more easily digestable
    It's handier to take on picnics
    And, it comes in such cute containers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    When it comes to men and boobs, our IQ is about 50% of normal......
    Would any man complain about a woman with nice boobs breast-feeding her kid in plain sight?
    I disagree with these parts. I doubt you meant it the way I took it, simply because your posting style has been consistently intelligent, but if anyone else had said it, i would have thought they were saying that men are stupid and not capable of being civilized and therefore should be excused from the responsibility of controlling themselves. Lucid being relatively new here, in my opinion, can't be blamed for her reaction to it.

    however, I completely agree with your next statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    So, trust me, it is.

    It is funny how yet another double standard applies in this situation.
    just for different reasons. It seems too many social groups, especially minority groups, are quick to take offense and quick to demand special treatment. We are all human beings with imperfections and these pesky little things called opinions, perspectives, expectations, and feelings. Throw all of those things into a bowl and you have the potential for being extremely irrational.

    I think a person should have the right to dress however they please so long as they are not creating a health hazard (for instance, leaving wet spots on park benches). But I do not think individuals should be condemned for not approving of every possible behavior or way of dressing. If someone chooses to perceive that a woman in a see-through mini dress walking down the middle of the street is a slut, they should be allowed to think that. They should be allowed to raise their children to not dress that way. They should be allowed to say out loud to their friends or anyone who chooses to listen that the woman looks like a slut. And the woman who is dressed in such a way, if she hears herself referred to in such a manner should have the right to feel offended at that assessment. Where rights stop is when one decides they can physically assault the other person over the discrepancy in perceptions. I do believe that private business owners should be allowed to expel anyone that they feel are causing a detriment to their business or that they find personally offensive. Sure someone may get embarrassed, but the business owner will face consequences of their choices. If his/her other patrons agree with him they will applaud if they do not agree they have the option to walk out of the establishment and never spend their money there again.

    I think if a business owner is racist and only want to serve the race of his choice he should be allowed. Especially considering he would likely not stay in business very long. Public opinion is sometimes stronger than the law itself. If the police cannot shut down a business, the public can by refusing to provide enough customers for the business to maintain itself.

    This is where wisdom comes into play. Do I think a woman should be forced to cover up when she is feeding her baby in a natural way? Absolutely not. But I do feel that private business owners should have the right to refuse service to anyone they choose. If they toss the woman out she can tell people all over the world about it and the PR alone could be enough to cause significant financial worries to the business owner. Look how quick big corporations are to pay people large sums of money just to stop bad PR. People threaten to sue, it hits the news, and whether the complainer has a case or not the company wants the talk to stop so they settle out of court. If it were me I wouldn't settle but I'm a little bit special.

    The thing is, we all make accommodations for the opinions and possible sensitivities of others. No one is exempt from this. The people who think they are exempt usually find themselves segregated to a small community with few options to get out of it.

    For instance people who trash their front yards with old sofas, broke down cars, and other garbage. while refusing to mow their lawn or maintain the appearance of the physical structure of their home.

    If they do this in a middle class neighborhood, they will either be run out or their property value will drop and cause all the neighbors' property values to drop as well. The cleaner neighbors will move away and only other trashy people will move into the newly vacant homes. Now this neighbor who thought themselves to be exempt from compromise has segregated himself to living only among other people who think and act like him. Some people like that sort of isolation. Most do not.

    So in the end, yes by all means feed your baby by bottle or breast,which ever you choose. But be considerate of yourself and others. There is never any need to fully disrobe from the waste up. There is never any need to make loud announcements that you are going to take out your boob (yes i have actually seen women do this). If you don't have a postnatal breast feeding shirt no big deal. the baby's face generally hides most of the breast anyway. And if you see someone give you a dirty look, just don't worry about it. Do your thing and let them be smug. If you are asked to leave, more likely than not, the business owner is trying to not lose business, it's his/her livelihood. I personally wouldn't allow anyone sagging their pants into my business. I think its tacky and gross. And it wouldn't matter to me what color the person was that was doing it. I'd tell them to put their pants on all the way or leave.

    But we all should be entitled to our opinions and to run our businesses as we choose. Boycotts work. They should be used more often. I refuse to go to chick filet because I don't like being served religious tracts with my meals. Will I, alone, put them out of business? No, but if millions of people protested by simply boycotting their business they may either go out of business or reconsider their decision to proselytize. But I am not inclined to insist they shouldn't be allowed to pass out tracts with their products. It's their business and there are obviously people who don't mind the tracts enough to stop eating there. No huge confrontation is necessary.

    I do not think government owned and operated "businesses" such as public transit should be allowed to kick a breast feeding mom out. Any service that is subsidized by tax dollars should not be allowed to kick out a breast feeding mom. However there are dress codes put into place in those places as well. In most court houses a judge can and will throw you out of court if you do not dress in a "respectable" manner. Is "respectable" clearly defined? Not really. They sometimes do specify, no shorts, no hats, no profanity printed on clothing, nothing that displays weapons or illicit drugs, and sometimes they won't even allow blue jeans.

    I would anticipate, that dress codes being enforced should give someone a hint that discretion should be observed. So using a shawl, or going somewhere private would probably be the most reasonable action to take unless absolutely impossible.

    Do I want my head wrapped up when I eat? Um... well I tend to keep my head wrapped up anyway, I hate my hair. but under normal circumstances, I'd say no.But loosely draping a shawl does not have to be constrictive to the baby and moms often shield their babies in such a way to prevent them from being coughed on by strangers. Or so that they don't have light glaring in their faces when they are trying to sleep. Covering them is not abusive if done within reason and I have never seen any studies that suggest shielding a new baby from the public causes them psychological scarring.

    The point is this is a give and take global society. We need to know what is going to be acceptable and not acceptable in the places we go to. We can try to influence change of mass perspective by writing beautiful poems as demonstrated in the OP. We can do awareness campaigns and we can even do public demonstrations. But vilifying people because there is disagreement doesn't usually accomplish much more than animosity and resentment. Both sides of this debate have extremely valid and good points.

    Both sides need to show understanding and willingness to compromise.
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    This is also aimed at Neverfly..

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    Really just where did you get this idea from? It seems more than clear to everybody else that Neverfly was explaining that mothers should be allowed to breast feed in normal establishments without being forced to go into a rest room to do it in private, he never mentioned anything about urinating. He was very articulate in his point, one that seems fair and reasonable that I'm sure most right thinking people would agree with, so really why or how have you managed to get hold of the wrong end of the stick?

    Is it that you are really so unaware of the problems that some mothers face in being banished to feed their children in private because of proprietors banning women from feeding their children in public? If this is the case let me firmly assure to you that this practice does take as many mothers can confirm.
    Did you not read his posts? At all?

    Did you miss the part where he said that he can't whip it out and pee in public and women should perform such bodily functions such as breastfeeding in public? He likes to pee in private, and he expressed some comments about how he'd imagine women would want to breastfeed in private, because he likes to pee in private. Because you know, breastfeeding and peeing are both bodily functions and so, are somewhat the same.. In his mind perhaps. I don't know about you, but as a thinking person, I don't view peeing and breastfeeding as being in the same league. And then he goes on to talk about women's sense of entitlement when it comes to their breasts and breastfeeding. In other words, if he can't pee in public, then women should not feel entitled because they have breasts to just apparently flop them out in public and feed their baby. In short, men can't whip their penis out in public and take a "whizz" in public, women should afford the public the same courtesy and either find somewhere private to breastfeed or apparently plan ahead - for those poor women who can't express, well, they can stuff the baby under a shawl and hide in shame while feeding their child.

    Having been a woman who was harassed by people for breastfeeding on a beach, while wearing a bikini no less (wearing a skimpy bikini was not offensive, moving aside one part of the bikini while baby fed and baby's head covered the area and nothing was showing, was apparently offensive to one woman), I found Neverfly's comments to be insulting, overbearing and outdated. It is the belief that the breast is wholly sexual and does not serve a purpose aside from pleasing men. I find the comparison in the argument that breastfeeding is akin to peeing to be insulting. Feeding a child is not like peeing. I don't think it is fair and reasonable and it is that kind of argument that is often used against breastfeeding women in public in that they are told 'I can't pee in public, you shouldn't be taking out your boob in public'. And it is offensive.

    To equate it to a sense of entitlement is even more offensive. Perhaps he thinks women take their tops off while breastfeeding in public or flop them both out onto the table and say 'voila'? As someone who has breastfed in public, it is stressful. Women don't flop out their boobs in public and plonk the baby on it. It is something we try to do without no one noticing and do it quickly so the baby can be fed and the screaming can stop. The only entitlement that exists in breastfeeding is for the child. Because a child is entitled to be fed. But to say that women shouldn't complain because normally they would complain if people stared at their boobs, so they shouldn't complain about breastfeeding in public. We don't take our tops off to breastfeed. We don't lift up our clothes and expose our breasts far and wide when we breastfeed. Usually, all you will see is the baby in front of the woman's chest and that is it. It's not as if she's standing there lifts up her top, drops her maternity bra and shakes her boobs for all to see. Maternity bra's themselves are designed and built so that feeding is discreet, with side panels that shield what the baby's head does not block. And in no way, shape or form is it the same as whipping out one's genitals and peeing, which is the exact argument Neverfly tried to use in this discussion, or comparing breastfeeding to the urgency of needing to poo when one has "the runs" - which he also tried to say in this discussion.

    It is attitudes like those expressed by Neverfly is why women are harassed when they try to breastfeed in public.

    My favourite part is when he said that the baby can simply wait.

    Here is a little something that perhaps he and others do not know or understand when it comes to breastfeeding. The breast can refill very quickly. When the baby starts to cry because it wants to feed, the woman's milk comes down. Literally, her breasts fill. The baby's cry acts almost like a trigger for this to happen. If you let the baby cry as you frantically run around looking for somewhere apparently private to feed or you let the baby wait, the baby screams more and what often happens, especially in the early months after the baby is born, the milk will start to leak out. She cannot control it. So what we do is use breast pads, to help soak this up, but sometimes, the nightmare happens and the pads aren't enough and it leaks down your top. Imagine this happening to a woman in public and it makes it 10 times worse than it should be. However, for the most part, women won't wait that long because their baby's usually cannot wait that long. Prolonged crying prior to feeding makes breastfeeding quite hard, because the baby will then gulp and usually be still grizzly as the it tries to get as much in as it can quickly, and in those early days, it can make attaching the baby quite tricky and makes breastfeeding quite painful, which then leads to issues like the baby puking immediately after or getting a stomach ache or the mother being even more stressed which can screw up the flow, her nipples and her mind as well.

    And I can assure you, a child writhing in hunger when trying to feed it because you were too busy running around trying to find somewhere private and then trying to place shawls over yourself and blindly trying to place baby to the breast makes it an even bigger spectacle than it would have been if she just placed the baby at her chest and quickly reached under her collar to unclip the maternity bra and move the bottom of her top out a bit so the baby quite literally moves his head under and attaches or if she is wearing a maternity top, she just lifts the flap up slightly for the same thing to happen and usually no one would even know. Many used a shawl. It is not always possible and when it's not, you deal with it the best you can. I have used shawls and breastfeeding tops. My second hated the shawl and would usually reach around while feeding and pull it down because he liked to stare at me while feeding. My first just used to close his eyes and feed and doze until he was done. But to compare that to peeing in public or the baby's need to be fed as being comparable to diarrhea? Come on! Perhaps he should think before he makes such arguments.

    These are the problems women face when breastfeeding. We don't do it because it's a sexual turn on and we get off on having men ogle our breasts in public. Far from it. We do it because it is best for our child.

    So perhaps before you have a go at me, you should actually read what Neverfly actually said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    This is also aimed at Neverfly..

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    Really just where did you get this idea from? It seems more than clear to everybody else that Neverfly was explaining that mothers should be allowed to breast feed in normal establishments without being forced to go into a rest room to do it in private, he never mentioned anything about urinating. He was very articulate in his point, one that seems fair and reasonable that I'm sure most right thinking people would agree with, so really why or how have you managed to get hold of the wrong end of the stick?

    Is it that you are really so unaware of the problems that some mothers face in being banished to feed their children in private because of proprietors banning women from feeding their children in public? If this is the case let me firmly assure to you that this practice does take as many mothers can confirm.
    Did you not read his posts? At all?

    Did you miss the part where he said that he can't whip it out and pee in public and women should perform such bodily functions such as breastfeeding in public? He likes to pee in private, and he expressed some comments about how he'd imagine women would want to breastfeed in private, because he likes to pee in private. Because you know, breastfeeding and peeing are both bodily functions and so, are somewhat the same.. In his mind perhaps. I don't know about you, but as a thinking person, I don't view peeing and breastfeeding as being in the same league. And then he goes on to talk about women's sense of entitlement when it comes to their breasts and breastfeeding. In other words, if he can't pee in public, then women should not feel entitled because they have breasts to just apparently flop them out in public and feed their baby. In short, men can't whip their penis out in public and take a "whizz" in public, women should afford the public the same courtesy and either find somewhere private to breastfeed or apparently plan ahead - for those poor women who can't express, well, they can stuff the baby under a shawl and hide in shame while feeding their child.

    Having been a woman who was harassed by people for breastfeeding on a beach, while wearing a bikini no less (wearing a skimpy bikini was not offensive, moving aside one part of the bikini while baby fed and baby's head covered the area and nothing was showing, was apparently offensive to one woman), I found Neverfly's comments to be insulting, overbearing and outdated. It is the belief that the breast is wholly sexual and does not serve a purpose aside from pleasing men. I find the comparison in the argument that breastfeeding is akin to peeing to be insulting. Feeding a child is not like peeing. I don't think it is fair and reasonable and it is that kind of argument that is often used against breastfeeding women in public in that they are told 'I can't pee in public, you shouldn't be taking out your boob in public'. And it is offensive.

    To equate it to a sense of entitlement is even more offensive. Perhaps he thinks women take their tops off while breastfeeding in public or flop them both out onto the table and say 'voila'? As someone who has breastfed in public, it is stressful. Women don't flop out their boobs in public and plonk the baby on it. It is something we try to do without no one noticing and do it quickly so the baby can be fed and the screaming can stop. The only entitlement that exists in breastfeeding is for the child. Because a child is entitled to be fed. But to say that women shouldn't complain because normally they would complain if people stared at their boobs, so they shouldn't complain about breastfeeding in public. We don't take our tops off to breastfeed. We don't lift up our clothes and expose our breasts far and wide when we breastfeed. Usually, all you will see is the baby in front of the woman's chest and that is it. It's not as if she's standing there lifts up her top, drops her maternity bra and shakes her boobs for all to see. Maternity bra's themselves are designed and built so that feeding is discreet, with side panels that shield what the baby's head does not block. And in no way, shape or form is it the same as whipping out one's genitals and peeing, which is the exact argument Neverfly tried to use in this discussion, or comparing breastfeeding to the urgency of needing to poo when one has "the runs" - which he also tried to say in this discussion.

    It is attitudes like those expressed by Neverfly is why women are harassed when they try to breastfeed in public.

    My favourite part is when he said that the baby can simply wait.

    Here is a little something that perhaps he and others do not know or understand when it comes to breastfeeding. The breast can refill very quickly. When the baby starts to cry because it wants to feed, the woman's milk comes down. Literally, her breasts fill. The baby's cry acts almost like a trigger for this to happen. If you let the baby cry as you frantically run around looking for somewhere apparently private to feed or you let the baby wait, the baby screams more and what often happens, especially in the early months after the baby is born, the milk will start to leak out. She cannot control it. So what we do is use breast pads, to help soak this up, but sometimes, the nightmare happens and the pads aren't enough and it leaks down your top. Imagine this happening to a woman in public and it makes it 10 times worse than it should be. However, for the most part, women won't wait that long because their baby's usually cannot wait that long. Prolonged crying prior to feeding makes breastfeeding quite hard, because the baby will then gulp and usually be still grizzly as the it tries to get as much in as it can quickly, and in those early days, it can make attaching the baby quite tricky and makes breastfeeding quite painful, which then leads to issues like the baby puking immediately after or getting a stomach ache or the mother being even more stressed which can screw up the flow, her nipples and her mind as well.

    And I can assure you, a child writhing in hunger when trying to feed it because you were too busy running around trying to find somewhere private and then trying to place shawls over yourself and blindly trying to place baby to the breast makes it an even bigger spectacle than it would have been if she just placed the baby at her chest and quickly reached under her collar to unclip the maternity bra and move the bottom of her top out a bit so the baby quite literally moves his head under and attaches or if she is wearing a maternity top, she just lifts the flap up slightly for the same thing to happen and usually no one would even know. But to compare that to peeing in public or the baby's need to be fed as being comparable to diarrhea? Come on!

    These are the problems women face when breastfeeding. We don't do it because it's a sexual turn on and we get off on having men ogle our breasts in public. Far from it. We do it because it is best for our child.

    So perhaps before you have a go at me, you should actually read what Neverfly actually said.
    This is a whole lot of tilting at windmills.

    You either have reasonable grounds to claim special treatment and evidence to show that Private Bodily Functions are in fact, not private bodily functions just because you think you're more special and more entitled than everyone else- Or Not.

    I can save you some time.

    In spite of your denials, private bodily functions are STILL private bodily functions. It is not exclusive to my mind, no matter how many times you feign an argument of incredulity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post

    This is a whole lot of tilting at windmills.

    You either have reasonable grounds to claim special treatment and evidence to show that Private Bodily Functions are in fact, not private bodily functions just because you think you're more special and more entitled than everyone else- Or Not.

    I can save you some time.

    In spite of your denials, private bodily functions are STILL private bodily functions. It is not exclusive to my mind, no matter how many times you feign an argument of incredulity.
    Considering you compared breastfeeding to urinating and a baby's need to feed to diarrhea, I can assure you, my incredulity is not feigned.

    That you even consider breastfeeding in public to women apparently demanding special treatment or claiming special treatment is, to say the least, idiotic and it is attitudes such as you have displayed in this thread which has led to the public outcry and demands that women go and breastfeed in a toilet. After all, you tried to argue that you can't pee in the open in public, then women should not expect to get 'special treatment' and breastfeed in the open in public. So for you, breastfeeding serves a similar bodily function as urinating serves as a bodily function. And in the midst of the insanity of your argument, you claim that women shouldn't be forced into toilets to breastfeed. After you compare it to peeing. And you fail to realise that it is because of attitudes such as yours that women are often forced into toilets to feed their babies.

    And it is obscene.

    But hey, whatever floats your boat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Considering you compared breastfeeding to urinating and a baby's need to feed to diarrhea, I can assure you, my incredulity is not feigned.
    So you're saying that lactating is NOT a personal bodily function, then?
    Do you have any evidence to support this?
    Because until you do, your incredulity means absolutely nothing.
    It is the Public Exposure of Private Parts. Period.
    That doesn't change on your say so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    That you even consider breastfeeding in public to women apparently demanding special treatment or claiming special treatment is, to say the least, idiotic and it is attitudes such as you have displayed in this thread which has led to the public outcry and demands that women go and breastfeed in a toilet.
    Try being Honest.
    I was very clear. If you cannot Honestly relay the arguments I've made, you lose all credibility with all readers.
    I am Opposed to breastfeeding mothers being sent to the Dirty Toilet and you very well Know It, by now.

    I am also opposed to claims of special treatment and entitlement. That is Exactly What It is and sitting there stamping your feet in denial does not change it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    And in the midst of the insanity of your argument,
    Insanity? You're the one that cannot provide any reasonable evidence that lactation is NOT a bodily function.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    you claim that women shouldn't be forced into toilets to breastfeed.
    Oh you admit I said that, now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    After you compare it to peeing.
    Yes, I did. Your shock and awe campaign is unimpressive. I really don't care if you're shocked by reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    And you fail to realise that it is because of attitudes such as yours that women are often forced into toilets to feed their babies.
    My attitude which is the reasonable middle ground?
    You're the extremist here, demanding special entitlement and pandering.
    They are the extremists saying to shove her in the toilet.

    I Said set up a healthy and personal private space for it. I dunno- your shock and awe campaign is really amazing and you called my statements insanity?

    You know what you like to do? If anyone disagrees with your outlandish ideas, you try to vilify them with sexist remarks, claims of racism, snarky remarks about the dark ages and what have you. If you cannot debate with facts, then you resort to attacking the person. Constantly. Grow up. Debate like a grown adult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    And it is obscene.
    No, it isn't.
    Obscenity would include demanding to do what others cannot do. Obscenity would be public exposure that is Unnecessary. Obscenity is trying to paint a false image of the other persons claims.
    But saying people need to show some discretion and class when dealing with personal bodily functions is NOT obscene.
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    In the USA, it is completely legal for women to breast feed in public(in most states at least), even though they briefly expose a body part that is more often than it should be, associated more with sexuality than any other purpose.

    However if a man in dire need to drain his bladder makes every attempt to find a private indoor restroom but is unable to and then goes behind a tree in attempt to pee, and a cop or anyone else walks up on him, simply emptying their bladder, he is not just harassed for it. He is arrested and forced to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. Simply because a penis is also more often than not associated more with sexuality than any other purpose. Clearly breasts and penises serve more than the purpose of sexual stimulation. They both serve purposes completely devoid of sexual gratification to anyone and are both purposes are vital to survival of our species.

    Registering as a sex offender means your face and address and name are available in public databases accessible online to anyone who wants to look up the sex offender list. Being seen on this list can blacklist you from getting jobs, being promoted, from purchasing a firearm, or living within a designated distance of any school or public facility that serves children. It can also black list you from being able to buy a home in affluent neighborhood and can lead to constant harassment by your neighbors who want "your kind" out of their neighborhood. It can also make it nearly impossible to date. Who wants to date a sex offender?

    If the laws requiring that a man caught simply urinating outside when no other facility was readily available in time, because urinating also cannot always wait, were changed so that an officer would only require him to pay a small health code violation fine or something like that rather than be arrested and forced to be registered as a sex offender, maybe there wouldn't be such a comparison being made.

    Yes, women sometimes get harassed for breastfeeding in public, and worse, by other women. But with men if they attend to something that very well can be an emergency of equal demand, they are stripped of their liberty, legally humiliated, and haunted with a permanent and legal label that does not suit the "crime" that was committed.

    But we do not see a huge movement to protect good men who got caught in inconvenient situations to be exonerated of such a crime and lifelong label. Is that fair?
    This is where the angst is coming from.

    Acting like putting a shawl over the semi exposed area, if people are acting stupid is some kind of torture is blowing things out of proportion. And I have seen women who make a big show of breast feeding. I saw a woman one time announce to everyone in McDonald's and I quote "OK EVERYBODY LISTEN UP! I'M BOUT TO FEED MY MOTHERF@CKIN BABY WITH MY MOTHERF@CKIN BREAST! IF ANY OF YALL SONS OF B!TCHES GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT TOO F@CKIN BAD!" Then she proceeded to take off her top completely and feed her baby. Her husband and other children were humiliated and walked out as soon as she started her tirade and the manager threw her out. Not because she was breast feeding but because she made a scene about it and insulted all the other patrons as well as her own family by doing so. She of course then tried to file a lawsuit against the store for being discriminated against her for breast feeding and when the owner wouldn't settle out of court she added a racial discrimination as well. Which was hilarious because the owner's wife was of the same race as the woman. I worked at this McDonald's at the time and it happened just after that other woman successfully sued McDonald's for serving her a hot coffee. Needless to say the court threw her case out when the defense presented the surveillance video and audio of her behavior just before actually breastfeeding.

    Obviously this is an anecdote that probably doesn't carry much weight since it only shows ONE woman. And as I said before, I do believe that the majority of women would prefer to not draw any unnecessary attention to themselves. But there are people who were raised with lower standards of decorum.

    Sure most women are modest and discreet in regards to breastfeeding, but not all of them are.

    The lack of desire for one woman to use a shawl or some kind of cover up does not mean that all women feel that way. No one ever demanded that I use one but I did out of my own shyness.

    Some have said a baby shouldn't be covered because we as adults don't want to cover our heads when we eat. Sure that's true they shouldn't. We also wouldn't want our bare butts shown to strangers while we get poop wiped out of our butt cracks or vaginal creases but no mom seems to be offended at the idea of changing a diaper in public or in bathrooms where others can see. Maybe we should start demanding that baby changing stations be placed in private toilet stalls. And that mothers who change diapers in the park should be arrested for abusing their babies by displaying the baby's genitals in public.

    Asking someone to use a shawl causes no one any permanent harm and it is far kinder than simply being asked to leave. Its a compromise. You can't please everyone and the needs or in this case desires, of the many outweigh the desires of the few. And to not use a shawl is most certainly a desire most of the time. Obviously if you don't have one due to lack of planning or it was stolen or lost then you can't very well use one. But using a shawl has never as far as I know caused any harm to anyone.

    Imagine if you were arrested and made to register as a sex offender instead.


    Here is another double standard to consider.

    Would we be ok with women being allowed to walk around bare chested just because they felt like it? Just because it's hot and they've been jogging and want to cool down. Men do it? Why can't women?

    Now let's take it a step further.

    Skinny attractive people can wear short shorts or low cut shirts in public, is it right to harass the grotesquely obese for it? Do you think that obese people should respect the most common of public sensitivities and cover up a bit more than attractive people are expected to?

    Have a gander at this before answering that. And for the record this is a rhetorical question. I don't really care what the answer is, the question is intended to make you think about it.

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    Maybe the reason peeing in public is so frowned upon is because it smells, it spreads bacteria and most of all.....there are a bazillion public toilets available for people to use and therefore absolutely no need to pee anywhere else.

    On the other hand.....where are all those places nursing mothers can go - maybe it is a special case, maybe we do need the government to fund public places where women can go feed if they get caught short or if they just want to have a nice day out somewhere with their baby. I say the government because its very clear from Hollie's experience that private enterprises currently don't feel the need to provide those sorts of facilities. And yes, being a nursing mother is nothing special, its an everyday event that millions of women go through - in fact its so common there is no need for special pleading. I'm sure public toilets were not available until it became clear that so many people needed them it would be imprudent to do anything else except provide facilities.

    You may have brought up a baby on your own NF and kudos to you for that - but you have never experienced the urgency of needing to feed a baby (and neither have I but I have witnessed my nieces in tears from the pain) but personally I think you need a little more empathy here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    In the USA, it is completely legal for women to breast feed in public(in most states at least), even though they briefly expose a body part that is more often than it should be, associated more with sexuality than any other purpose.

    However if a man in dire need to drain his bladder makes every attempt to find a private indoor restroom but is unable to and then goes behind a tree in attempt to pee, and a cop or anyone else walks up on him, simply emptying their bladder, he is not just harassed for it. He is arrested and forced to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. Simply because a penis is also more often than not associated more with sexuality than any other purpose. Clearly breasts and penises serve more than the purpose of sexual stimulation. They both serve purposes completely devoid of sexual gratification to anyone and are both purposes are vital to survival of our species.

    If the laws requiring that a man caught simply urinating outside when no other facility was readily available in time, because urinating also cannot always wait, were changed so that an officer would only require him to pay a small health code violation fine or something like that rather than be arrested and forced to be registered as a sex offender, maybe there wouldn't be such a comparison being made.

    But we do not see a huge movement to protect good men who got caught in inconvenient situations to be exonerated of such a crime and lifelong label. Is that fair?
    This is where the angst is coming from.
    I wanted to draw attention to these key points.
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Some have said a baby shouldn't be covered because we as adults don't want to cover our heads when we eat. Sure that's true they shouldn't. We also wouldn't want our bare butts shown to strangers while we get poop wiped out of our butt cracks or vaginal creases but no mom seems to be offended at the idea of changing a diaper in public or in bathrooms where others can see. Maybe we should start demanding that baby changing stations be placed in private toilet stalls. And that mothers who change diapers in the park should be arrested for abusing their babies by displaying the baby's genitals in public.
    <chuckle>
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    [QUOTE=Neverfly;439476]
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    In the USA, it is completely legal for women to breast feed in public(in most states at least), even though they briefly expose a body part that is more often than it should be, associated more with sexuality than any other purpose.

    However if a man in dire need to drain his bladder makes every attempt to find a private indoor restroom but is unable to and then goes behind a tree in attempt to pee, and a cop or anyone else walks up on him, simply emptying their bladder, he is not just harassed for it. He is arrested and forced to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. Simply because a penis is also more often than not associated more with sexuality than any other purpose. Clearly breasts and penises serve more than the purpose of sexual stimulation. They both serve purposes completely devoid of sexual gratification to anyone and are both purposes are vital to survival of our species.

    If the laws requiring that a man caught simply urinating outside when no other facility was readily available in time, because urinating also cannot always wait, were changed so that an officer would only require him to pay a small health code violation fine or something like that rather than be arrested and forced to be registered as a sex offender, maybe there wouldn't be such a comparison being made.

    But we do not see a huge movement to protect good men who got caught in inconvenient situations to be exonerated of such a crime and lifelong label. Is that fair?
    This is where the angst is coming from.

    I wanted to draw attention to these key points.
    [QUOTE]
    Except they are not key points are they? If you think men are unfairly treated for peeing in public then write a poem and perform it on the internet..... this has absolutely nothing to do with Hollie's original statement.
    Last edited by LuciDreaming; July 13th, 2013 at 02:50 AM. Reason: My response was inside the quote
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Except they are not key points are they? If you think men are unfairly treated for peeing in public then write a poem and perform it on the internet..... this has absolutely nothing to do with Hollie's original statement.
    It is a proper and On topic response to Tranquille.
    They are the key points for that shift in debate.

    And I stand by every post I have made and every opinion I have expressed.
    It IS on topic.

    A double standard and entitlement/special Treatment attitude is being discussed on the topic. If you don't like it- do not take part in it.
    But claiming those points are not what they are is absurd.
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    I'm beginning to think you are the one a bit absurd here to be honest. The topic as posted is a discussion of lack of facilities for breastfeeding women. You are now hi-jacking this thread with a different subject (not a shift in debate, because we haven't finished the first debate yet) so if you have something of interest that is relevant to the original post and topic I'd be pleased to hear it.
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    By the way...the original double standard before you deflected it to your own agenda was the hypocrisy of breasts being exposed in public acceptable only if they are sexualised and not if they are being used to feed an infant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    I'm beginning to think you are the one a bit absurd here to be honest. The topic as posted is a discussion of lack of facilities for breastfeeding women.
    We've all pretty much agreed that those would be a very nice thing. I'm sure we'd all be happy to suffer a few pennies hike in service or goods prices to cover it. If I missed someone hotly debating that- Please point out who it was.
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    You are now hi-jacking this thread with a different subject (not a shift in debate, because we haven't finished the first debate yet)
    See above.
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    By the way...the original double standard before you deflected it to your own agenda was the hypocrisy of breasts being exposed in public acceptable only if they are sexualised and not if they are being used to feed an infant.
    My "Own" agenda? I didn't "hijack" the thread. I went with what had been expressed already.

    Other people are not going to follow all of the thought processes as you. Topics always drift around as people express themselves and you're attempting to dictate what others express. What I've said is legitimately on topic and I would appreciate it if you'd get up off my back about it.

    If you disagree with it all so much- please ask a Moderator to review the thread.

    Or if you prefer us all to agree within ten posts and the thread dies- request that the Mods tell the rest of us to shut up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Maybe the reason peeing in public is so frowned upon is because it smells, it spreads bacteria and most of all.....there are a bazillion public toilets available for people to use and therefore absolutely no need to pee anywhere else.

    On the other hand.....where are all those places nursing mothers can go - maybe it is a special case, maybe we do need the government to fund public places where women can go feed if they get caught short or if they just want to have a nice day out somewhere with their baby. I say the government because its very clear from Hollie's experience that private enterprises currently don't feel the need to provide those sorts of facilities. And yes, being a nursing mother is nothing special, its an everyday event that millions of women go through - in fact its so common there is no need for special pleading. I'm sure public toilets were not available until it became clear that so many people needed them it would be imprudent to do anything else except provide facilities.

    You may have brought up a baby on your own NF and kudos to you for that - but you have never experienced the urgency of needing to feed a baby (and neither have I but I have witnessed my nieces in tears from the pain) but personally I think you need a little more empathy here.
    Whether breast feeding or bottle feeding, a baby still demands to be fed when they are hungry. And it is much more difficult to feed them when out in public without breasts than with them. Unless you have bottle fed a baby you have no idea how horrible it is to have to leave before finishing your dinner that just arrived because baby demands to be fed and the wait staff say they are not allowed to warm a bottle for you in their kitchen. Sitting there letting the little one scream is not an option and leaving without paying for a meal we didn't get to finish is not legally allowed. So bottle feeding mom's also catch hell. And single dads often get harassed for bringing babies with them. "Dude why don't you leave him with his mom or sitter?" "What kind of man drags a baby around with him?"

    Life sucks. People suck. Everyone gets harassed by someone for some reason. Everyone gets looked down on for something. And everyone seems to think their challenges and plights are far worse than anyone else's. Pissing contests don't solve any problems. Parenting is hard. Whether it is a mom who breastfeeds, bottle feeds or a single dad, or gay couples raising babies together. The sound of crying babies or children automatically raises judgmental antenna on other people's heads and they think they have the right to tell you just how you are doing it wrong and how you are not fit to be a parent.

    These kinds of judgmental remarks against each other, I mean parents vs parents, is counter productive.

    And on the concept of public toilets, you'd be surprised how few there can be when you need one. I have been to gas stations in an extreme emergency and asked to use the restroom, a normal every day thing in most gas stations in USA, and was told customers were not allowed to use it. I had a teenage son that was in tears he needed to go so bad and no business would let him use it because it was after dark, and he couldn't go by a tree because there were too many people around some of them police. So this kid, almost an adult, had to wiggle around in the car and try to pee in an empty soda bottle in front of his sister, brothers, me and my husband. Obviously we got out and guarded the car so no one would look but the humiliation was unnecessary and cruel. There was a dark area of brush he could have walked off into but the cops would have shown a light on him and arrested him if he did.

    I remember it happening to us pretty regularly on road trips when I was a kid. We even started making sure we kept empty soda bottles for my little brother. If i had to pee and couldn't hold it to the next stop they'd have to pull over on the side of the road and hope we wouldn't get in trouble for letting me pee in a ditch. USA still has plenty of open land and long stretches of road and private business owners are not required by law to allow anyone to use their restrooms. If they do it is considered a voluntary courtesy here. The only government maintained restrooms are in government owned buildings, like court houses, transit authorities, police stations, and parks. Parks have very sparse restrooms and they are locked at sunset. And the only time you would be in or near a transit authority is if you are commuting by bus(most Americans don't) and most transit authorities lock their restrooms at night as well to prevent homeless people from huddling in them. And if you are in a police station, its likely that you are in a cell with a toilet you share with others an no privacy while doing so.

    If there is a bazillion public toilets around, they must be keeping most of them in the UK because that is simply not the case here in the USA.


    The point is, the poet in the OP is absolutely correct. Her poem magnificent. But pointing fingers, blaming and comparing victim stories won't solve this issue.

    There needs to be listening, understanding, and compromise. Solutions suggested and the pros and cons of those solutions discussed without attacking each other and blaming each other for the situation at hand.

    The solution needs to be one that considers the sensitivities of both sides, meaning both sides will have to give a little.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    but you have never experienced the urgency of needing to feed a baby (and neither have I but I have witnessed my nieces in tears from the pain) but personally I think you need a little more empathy here.
    Nonsense. You are attributing arguments to me that I have not only not made- but argued against- a la Tranquille style.
    Please do Not Do That. That's very frustrating to have someone sit there and claim that you said the opposite of what you said.

    I am fully in support of clean, healthy and safe services for breastfeeding mothers. I have not shown a lack of empathy in the least. And if it's so off topic, what are you doing talking about it?

    Either read what I actually say or Do Not Bother to post when claiming I said the opposite of what I said. Really.
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    The solution needs to be one that considers the sensitivities of both sides, meaning both sides will have to give a little.
    Thank you for recognizing that going to extremes is not a solution- rather the middle ground of discretion and service is.
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    Well we must be on completely different wavelengths here then - where have I pointed fingers? Once again - the original hypocrisy, clearly stated by Hollie is....why is it ok for tits to be out in public, on page 3, on billboards etc if they are being portrayed as sexual objects and not ok for a woman to expose a small amount briefly while feeding her baby? If you can point me to a sensible discussion of this on here so far please point it out to me?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Well we must be on completely different wavelengths here then - where have I pointed fingers?
    Welllll... When you pointed the finger and said, "Own Agenda" and "Hijacked the thread..." for starters...
    You may be IN psychology, L.D., but you are not immune to its effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Once again - the original hypocrisy, clearly stated by Hollie is....why is it ok for tits to be out in public, on page 3, on billboards etc if they are being portrayed as sexual objects and not ok for a woman to expose a small amount briefly while feeding her baby?
    Hollies video was well presented and really nailed the hypocrisy.
    But again, tell me if I am wrong, every post has agreed that
    -that is a silly hypocrisy
    -that nursing mothers need a safe and clean environment and supportive encouragement and not discrimination or abuse.
    It's quite possible that I've missed a dissenting post... I still cannot find one.
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    If you can point me to a sensible discussion of this on here so far please point it out to me?
    I really can't point out a sensible one. I can point out some mirth, some heated debate and some off the wall comments...
    I understand if you're frustrated that the topic didn't go quite the way you wanted--- but that's the nature of discussion. A discussion follows tangents, sudden thoughts, arguments- etc. That is what makes them interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    By the way...the original double standard before you deflected it to your own agenda was the hypocrisy of breasts being exposed in public acceptable only if they are sexualised and not if they are being used to feed an infant.
    I think they should stop posting gratuitous nudity on billboards and commercials. If I am not allowed to walk down the street in my bra and panties, why are businesses allowed to advertise using nearly naked models? It doesn't make any sense. People say, if you don't like nudity on tv turn it off or change the channel. That's fine I will, but who is going to turn the billboard away from my children's view when I must drive a particular route to take them to school?

    And why don't they have women of average size and weight modeling the underwear? Are we allowed to be exposed only if we are models? That's not fair. One law for models and another for us average chubby chicks?

    I am not actually very prudish at all but I respect the rights of others to raise their children conservatively. If I had it my way we'd all be nudists.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    So you're saying that lactating is NOT a personal bodily function, then?
    Do you have any evidence to support this?
    Because until you do, your incredulity means absolutely nothing.
    It is the Public Exposure of Private Parts. Period.
    That doesn't change on your say so.
    It is a bodily function. So is crying.

    However, you are comparing it to urinating and amazingly enough, to defecating in public.

    I'll give you a hint as to why you cannot compare breastfeeding to urinating and defecating.

    Two out of the 3 bodily functions being discussed are dangerous to public health and safety. One is not. Do you need me to tell you which one is not dangerous to public health and safety? Do you need me to explain to you which one is not dangerous to drinking water and to food safety? Two out of the three bodily functions constitutes as human waste products and one is not a human waste product. Would you like me to tell you which ones are which?

    To make this easier for you to understand. Hospitals and health departments have fairly strict instructions for the handling of breastmilk. The reason is because you don't want anything to happen to the breastmilk before it is fed to the baby and the breastmilk has to remain sterile before it is fed to babies, especially babies in neonatal care wards. Not because it is deemed a human waste product.

    Now certainly, we have many bodily functions.

    But to compare human waste products to breastfeeding is, frankly, ridiculous. You can try and defend your stance as much as you want and Seagypsy can try to defend your ridiculous stance as much as she wants. At the end of the day, your argument amounts to your comparing humans expelling human waste products to breastfeeding because they are all "bodily functions".

    Try being Honest.
    I was very clear. If you cannot Honestly relay the arguments I've made, you lose all credibility with all readers.
    I am Opposed to breastfeeding mothers being sent to the Dirty Toilet and you very well Know It, by now.

    I am also opposed to claims of special treatment and entitlement. That is Exactly What It is and sitting there stamping your feet in denial does not change it.
    Oh, I know what your stance is. You have made it very clear.

    You are resentful that women can breastfeed in public and you think that it is something they feel they are entitled to do, while you feel (and it seems Seagypsy feels the same) that you cannot just whip "it" out and take a whizz when the urge takes you.

    So women should respect people like you who think that they are claiming a special treatment by breastfeeding in public, and do it in private or somehow or other go through the nightmares of expressing or hiding somewhere or using shawls, because you can't urinate in public. Don't worry Neverfly, you made it quite clear.

    Insanity? You're the one that cannot provide any reasonable evidence that lactation is NOT a bodily function.
    Oh it is a bodily function. The breasts are designed for breastfeeding. However you are trying to claim that women somehow feel a sense of entitlement or are given special treatment for breastfeeding in public while men, or "good men" as Seagypsy is now trying to argue, cannot urinate or defecate in public. Because the expulsion of human waste products which poses a risk to human health and safety is akin to a woman breastfeeding in public..

    You believe that women should not be entitled to breastfeed in public without covering up first because people are not entitled or allowed to urinate and defecate in public and thus, pose a risk and danger to public health and safety.

    I think it is fair to say that your stance on this issue is insane.

    Yes, I did. Your shock and awe campaign is unimpressive. I really don't care if you're shocked by reality.
    I am often shocked by stupidity.

    Your argument that women shouldn't feel entitled to breastfeed in public because people cannot urinate in public (and then you went further and claimed that people with 'the runs' can't go in public and compared a baby's need for a feed to someone having the runs) is not shocking in that it is uneducated and asinine.

    My attitude which is the reasonable middle ground?
    You're the extremist here, demanding special entitlement and pandering.
    They are the extremists saying to shove her in the toilet.

    I Said set up a healthy and personal private space for it. I dunno- your shock and awe campaign is really amazing and you called my statements insanity?

    You know what you like to do? If anyone disagrees with your outlandish ideas, you try to vilify them with sexist remarks, claims of racism, snarky remarks about the dark ages and what have you. If you cannot debate with facts, then you resort to attacking the person. Constantly. Grow up. Debate like a grown adult.
    You compared breastfeeding in public to urinating in public.

    You can try and say I am an extremist because I believe that women have the legal right to breastfeed where they damn well please and how they please, but the crux of your asinine argument remains.

    It is clear you believe I am an extremist for saying that women have the legal right to breastfeed where they wish and how they wish, public or private and you consider it "outlandish". And you know what? That is fine. I am happy to be an "extremist" who believes that women have the right to breastfeed as they wish and where they wish.

    You believe that women who breastfeed in public have a sense of entitlement which you do not think they deserve because as you said yourself, you can't 'whip it out and pee in public' when the need strikes you. Because you seem to have this bizarre notion that the human body riding itself of human waste, such as urinating, is similar to a woman breastfeeding a baby. You make this comparison because breastfeeding is a human function and thus, it is automatically the same as urinating, which is another and very different human function.

    Apparently, I would be a grown up if I compared urinating and breastfeeding. Frankly, as someone who breastfed two children and plan to breastfeed the third, I would rather be immature in your view and an extremist and breastfeed as I please and where I please.

    Certainly, you are free to compare the expulsion of human waste products to feeding a baby. That is your choice. Is your argument sexist? No. There are other words to describe your argument, but the rules of this site prevent me from voicing them.

    No, it isn't.
    Obscenity would include demanding to do what others cannot do. Obscenity would be public exposure that is Unnecessary. Obscenity is trying to paint a false image of the other persons claims.
    But saying people need to show some discretion and class when dealing with personal bodily functions is NOT obscene.
    And comparing breastfeeding to urinating and a hungry baby to someone having diarrhea is not obscene in your opinion?

    Of course not, what am I thinking! You are the one who has been defending your stance.
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    Again, tilting at windmills. Yes, there are differences but neither eyes nor crying is considered a Personal Private Part. It's Just the way it is.
    I didn't make it all the way it is.

    Your extremist viewpoints are as absurd as me saying I can pee where I damn well please and if you don't like the sight of my junk- don't look. And while you're allowed that opinion- you're not allowed to actually DO whatever you please. That is the reality. I agree that sometimes it is hypocritical. I agree that sometimes, it is absurd.

    At this point, I am going to trust that the majority of readers here have better reading comprehension than you do. Your posts are just too consistently aggressive, flaming, hostile, dishonest, misleading, personal and emotional to always get caught up in it. I'm ignoring your rebuttals at this point. I have defended my stance and I have been clear and my points are reasonable, middle ground and quite socially acceptable in spite or your twists and distortions.

    I'll take you off the ignore list after a week or so or if I butt out of this thread- whichever comes first.
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    In alphabetical order - Neverfly, Seagypsy, Tranquille. OK everyone. Stop and think for a minute.

    What's the problem here? The basic problem is the same as the general Western society one. Seeing breasts as primarily, or even entirely, as sexual rather than multifunctional like other parts of the body which also have sexual uses, mouth or hands for example.

    Cons. You say that you're arguing about breast feeding in public. So how come these several walls of text don't mention sex when discussing breasts. There are a few prissy references to things that should be/ are done in private - without mentioning sexual activity, but concentrating on a (too frequently described as) Anglo-Saxon obsession with excretion functions.

    Pros. And when arguing in favour of public breast feeding, you really need to take the objections to breast exposure head-on. The sexual one. There's also the problem of far too many breast feeding women, especially in those morning coffee groups, treating the feed-change-settle process as entirely public. One reason why many people dislike seeing breast feeding in cafes is that they're worried the baby will shortly be changed on the restaurant table or in the pram beside it - which is totally unacceptable whether the babe is fed by bottle or breast.

    If any or all of you don't want to focus on the obvious if unspoken reasons for people's unease about public breast feeding, then you need to either modify your argument or abandon the discussion.

    Moderator hat - On!

    This discussion has got too heated with far too little reason or reasoning. Either play the ball or take it home.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    In alphabetical order - Neverfly, Seagypsy, Tranquille. OK everyone. Stop and think for a minute.

    What's the problem here? The basic problem is the same as the general Western society one. Seeing breasts as primarily, or even entirely, as sexual rather than multifunctional like other parts of the body which also have sexual uses, mouth or hands for example.

    Cons. You say that you're arguing about breast feeding in public. So how come these several walls of text don't mention sex when discussing breasts. There are a few prissy references to things that should be/ are done in private - without mentioning sexual activity, but concentrating on a (too frequently described as) Anglo-Saxon obsession with excretion functions.

    Pros. And when arguing in favour of public breast feeding, you really need to take the objections to breast exposure head-on. The sexual one. There's also the problem of far too many breast feeding women, especially in those morning coffee groups, treating the feed-change-settle process as entirely public. One reason why many people dislike seeing breast feeding in cafes is that they're worried the baby will shortly be changed on the restaurant table or in the pram beside it - which is totally unacceptable whether the babe is fed by bottle or breast.
    I already pointed this out:
    This Is How Society Is.

    It's established.
    I never claimed it makes sense. I never claimed I agree with it. But it's how it is. Whether it's Anglo-Saxon or whatever- makes no difference. Fact is, a few hundred million people already have the mindset.
    Breast are seen as a Sexual Body part.
    It's the standard perception. I'm sure we can discuss why and whether it's silly or not til blue in the face but Society Won't Just Change.
    If it is to change, such changes would occur slowly and deliberately with moderation.

    As far as the double standard goes- there is a double standard where what would get one person a pat on the back gets another major legal problems. I'm certainly not going to endorse that kind of idea.

    ETA: You clearly did not read - you know- READ- any of our posts, Adelady.
    I have no idea why Seagypsy is included in your admonishment considering she was trying to mediate between Tranquille and I and showing what I was saying with greater clarity.
    Last edited by Neverfly; July 13th, 2013 at 07:44 AM.
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    Why must every custom or rule of etiquette be dissected and questioned? Some things are the way they are just because. We don't put our elbows on the table. We don't pick our noses in public. Etc., etc.

    I think I ought to be able to pee in my yard. It would be environmentally responsible, because it would save water. I wouldn't have to flush the toilet. But I'm not going to go around complaining about it. I just recognize that if people see me peeing in the yard, they're going to get upset about it.

    Also, I don't see where the hypocrisy comes in. Hypocrisy is when someone behaves one way under one set of circumstances, and a different way under a different set of circumstances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Why must every custom or rule of etiquette be dissected and questioned? Some things are the way they are just because. We don't put our elbows on the table. We don't pick our noses in public. Etc., etc.

    I think I ought to be able to pee in my yard. It would be environmentally responsible, because it would save water. I wouldn't have to flush the toilet. But I'm not going to go around complaining about it. I just recognize that if people see me peeing in the yard, they're going to get upset about it.
    See, I agree.
    Let's say I've got an itch in an awkward place. Well, I get that- and I scratch- while in public. But I use discretion. Maybe someone might notice, but I'm pretty fair at trying to keep it unnoticeable.
    But if I went digging in as if no one was around, people would think I was uncouth.

    It is just the way it is.
    Is it odd that when I am by myself I can scratch my crotch with full gusto but when out in public I must pretend to look for something small in my pocket?
    I have no idea. But I prefer to be courteous enough to handle my affairs with responsible discretion. Some people are visual people and they picture everything. They might not appreciate suddenly picturing me playing pocket pool.

    Now, when the bottom of my foot itches when I'm out and wearing steel toe boots- then I make a scene, jumping up and down and cursing the Gods of Footwear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Also, I don't see where the hypocrisy comes in. Hypocrisy is when someone behaves one way under one set of circumstances, and a different way under a different set of circumstances.
    The hypocrisy is just as you said- showing breasts on ads, but disallowing a nursing mother. It really is very absurd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    In alphabetical order - Neverfly, Seagypsy, Tranquille. OK everyone. Stop and think for a minute.

    What's the problem here? The basic problem is the same as the general Western society one. Seeing breasts as primarily, or even entirely, as sexual rather than multifunctional like other parts of the body which also have sexual uses, mouth or hands for example.

    Cons. You say that you're arguing about breast feeding in public. So how come these several walls of text don't mention sex when discussing breasts. There are a few prissy references to things that should be/ are done in private - without mentioning sexual activity, but concentrating on a (too frequently described as) Anglo-Saxon obsession with excretion functions.
    I did mention sexualization of breasts as well as penises.
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    In the USA, it is completely legal for women to breast feed in public(in most states at least), even though they briefly expose a body part that is more often than it should be, associated more with sexuality than any other purpose.

    However if a man in dire need to drain his bladder makes every attempt to find a private indoor restroom but is unable to and then goes behind a tree in attempt to pee, and a cop or anyone else walks up on him, simply emptying their bladder, he is not just harassed for it. He is arrested and forced to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. Simply because a penis is also more often than not associated more with sexuality than any other purpose. Clearly breasts and penises serve more than the purpose of sexual stimulation. They both serve purposes completely devoid of sexual gratification to anyone and are both purposes are vital to survival of our species.

    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Pros. And when arguing in favour of public breast feeding, you really need to take the objections to breast exposure head-on. The sexual one. There's also the problem of far too many breast feeding women, especially in those morning coffee groups, treating the feed-change-settle process as entirely public. One reason why many people dislike seeing breast feeding in cafes is that they're worried the baby will shortly be changed on the restaurant table or in the pram beside it - which is totally unacceptable whether the babe is fed by bottle or breast.
    I did make statements to this affect as well

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    The point is this is a give and take global society. We need to know what is going to be acceptable and not acceptable in the places we go to. We can try to influence change of mass perspective by writing beautiful poems as demonstrated in the OP. We can do awareness campaigns and we can even do public demonstrations. But vilifying people because there is disagreement doesn't usually accomplish much more than animosity and resentment. Both sides of this debate have extremely valid and good points.

    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    If any or all of you don't want to focus on the obvious if unspoken reasons for people's unease about public breast feeding, then you need to either modify your argument or abandon the discussion.

    Moderator hat - On!

    This discussion has got too heated with far too little reason or reasoning. Either play the ball or take it home.
    agreed, I just don't understand why I am being chastised here. I feel like none of my posts were actually read. And that I am being chewed out because I am married to Neverfly.
    Last edited by seagypsy; July 13th, 2013 at 07:47 AM. Reason: added post number links
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    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    I am not sure how I feel about this. I did once see a mother nursing her baby while waiting in a line at the bank (sitting line). I guess I wasn't happy about it, but I would have been more unhappy with a screaming child.

    Whether there is hypocrisy on an intellectual level or not, many societal norms are based on sensibilities alone. One would expect to see a kind of hypocrisy all over the place. It doesn't necessarily mean we have to weed those out.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    I am not sure how I feel about this. I did once see a mother nursing her baby while waiting in a line at the bank (sitting line). I guess I wasn't happy about it, but I would have been more unhappy with a screaming child.

    Whether there is hypocrisy on an intellectual level or not, many societal norms are based on sensibilities alone. One would expect to see a kind of hypocrisy all over the place. It doesn't necessarily mean we have to weed those out.
    See, on this I do not agree. When it gets to the point where people are being abused or their health is being questionably compromised, such as forcing women to breastfeed in a Public Bathroom- That needs to be addressed.
    I think that should be weeded out.

    I do not think, however, that means that one gender can be given special allowances that the other gender is disallowed from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I did make statements to this affect as well
    As did I.
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    agreed, I just don't understand why I am being chastised here. I feel like none of my posts were actually read. And that I am being chewed out because I am married to Neverfly.
    I feel as though mine also weren't read. By many parties. I just type it out so others can change their meaning and throw it back in my face.

    And I agree that is why you're being addressed. They cannot be bothered to read posts OR treat us as the separate individuals that we are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    I am not sure how I feel about this. I did once see a mother nursing her baby while waiting in a line at the bank (sitting line). I guess I wasn't happy about it, but I would have been more unhappy with a screaming child.

    Whether there is hypocrisy on an intellectual level or not, many societal norms are based on sensibilities alone. One would expect to see a kind of hypocrisy all over the place. It doesn't necessarily mean we have to weed those out.

    I'm with you with the screaming child bit, I think is disturbing to everybodies calm because it implies the child is in distress and it's not your child you can't do anything about it, it makes people, at least subconsciously, have more hostile feelings towards the mother for not addressing the childs distress. I think we are all hardwired to naturally react to a distressed child.

    But as for breastfeeding in public I tend to disagree with some of the ideas here, I don't think this sexual idea about breasts comes into play in relation to breast feeding because it isn't a sexual act. If we see people in tiny bikinis on the beach we might think they have nice bodies but it's not the same as seeing them in equally revealing underware. The situation and what is taking place have a far stronger baring in how things should be viewed, and when it comes to breasts in this context I just don't think they are at all sexualised, just as with certain tribes who choose to bare their breasts or even nudists I think it's far less about the anatomy and all about the context.

    I do think the point about the changing of babies nappies in public, especially in food establishments, Adelady made is valid though, I certainly won't be comfortable with this taking place. So I guess it might come down to individual sensibilities for where people feel a line should be drawn between what they personally feel is or isn't acceptable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    I am not sure how I feel about this. I did once see a mother nursing her baby while waiting in a line at the bank (sitting line). I guess I wasn't happy about it, but I would have been more unhappy with a screaming child.

    Whether there is hypocrisy on an intellectual level or not, many societal norms are based on sensibilities alone. One would expect to see a kind of hypocrisy all over the place. It doesn't necessarily mean we have to weed those out.
    See, on this I do not agree. When it gets to the point where people are being abused or their health is being questionably compromised, such as forcing women to breastfeed in a Public Bathroom- That needs to be addressed.
    I think that should be weeded out.

    I do not think, however, that means that one gender can be given special allowances that the other gender is disallowed from.
    Agreed when it starts to impact on public safety.

    Not sure where how the other gender is disallowed from something. Men don't have lactating breasts.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Not sure where how the other gender is disallowed from something. Men don't have lactating breasts.
    Because society considers a womans breasts as a Private Sex Part. This is why women wear tops at the pool.
    They are considered private parts. This is well known and well established- nothing is unclear about it.

    Exposing private parts as being OK for One gender (Breasts on women) but as NOT OK (felony sex offense charge for men) for the other is disallowing the other gender.
    It's very clear. I see no mystery, here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Not sure where how the other gender is disallowed from something. Men don't have lactating breasts.
    Because society considers a womans breasts as a Private Sex Part. This is why women wear tops at the pool.
    They are considered private parts. This is well known and well established- nothing is unclear about it.

    Exposing private parts as being OK for One gender (Breasts on women) but as NOT OK (felony sex offense charge for men) for the other is disallowing the other gender.
    It's very clear. I see no mystery, here.
    I understand the origin of the taboo as you describe it here (and highlighted by Adelady and others), but in terms of breastfeeding; surely it is a different thing? Very few men would find anything sexual about a breastfeeding mother, or am I wrong?

    A man exposing his junk is one thing; a woman exposing her breast is the same thing, but to my mind exposing it for breastfeeding is another thing, just like men exposing their nipples is. No?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    But as for breastfeeding in public I tend to disagree with some of the ideas here, I don't think this sexual idea about breasts comes into play in relation to breast feeding because it isn't a sexual act.
    I agree. I don't see it as a sex act... If I see it happening out somewhere, I don't really pay attention to it.
    But many guys do. I was in the Army- I know the talk. Trust me, plenty of guys are turned on by it.
    It's not something I'm proud of my gender about. But there it is.
    The problem you face is that it can create chaotic situations and I think a balance of healthy discretion should be maintained.
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    I understand the origin of the taboo as you describe it here (and highlighted by Adelady and others), but in terms of breastfeeding; surely it is a different thing? Very few men would find anything sexual about a breastfeeding mother, or am I wrong?
    The problem is, you me and Ascended do not see it that way. You need to consider that other boats float differently.
    A lot of guys express that and/or pregnancy as a fetish or turn on. If healthy discretion is not observed, I can easily see it causing problems.
    While I agree that no one SHOULD be assaulted does not mean it won't happen- nor is it not preventable.
    And the taboos are western and silly, too. But most people are kinda programmed already to feel the way they do.
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    A man exposing his junk is one thing; a woman exposing her breast is the same thing, but to my mind exposing it for breastfeeding is another thing, just like men exposing their nipples is. No?
    To a lot of people, a man exposing (Even if you cannot SEE it but you know what he's doing) his junk to pee is not a turn on nor a sex act, too. Maybe some women ARE turned on by it. I don't know.
    It really is no different.
    It can be just as urgent.
    Just as uncomfortable.
    Just as much taboo.


    All that said...
    But since me expressing my thoughts in this thread is unwelcome, is being distorted and I'm such a troublesome and problematic poster... I'm out of this thread now. So any of you- don't bother replying to anything I've said since me typing out thoughts is apparently an open invitation to distort what I've said, turn that into accusations and personal attacks and then have Moderators admonish me over that.
    I'm Fed Up With it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Not sure where how the other gender is disallowed from something. Men don't have lactating breasts.
    Because society considers a womans breasts as a Private Sex Part. This is why women wear tops at the pool.
    They are considered private parts. This is well known and well established- nothing is unclear about it.

    Exposing private parts as being OK for One gender (Breasts on women) but as NOT OK (felony sex offense charge for men) for the other is disallowing the other gender.
    It's very clear. I see no mystery, here.
    I understand the origin of the taboo as you describe it here (and highlighted by Adelady and others), but in terms of breastfeeding; surely it is a different thing? Very few men would find anything sexual about a breastfeeding mother, or am I wrong?

    A man exposing his junk is one thing; a woman exposing her breast is the same thing, but to my mind exposing it for breastfeeding is another thing, just like men exposing their nipples is. No?

    The problem is one of proportionality, seeing a man's junk is different from seeing a woman's breast, if you were comparaing it to her lady garden then it would be a more equal comparison.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    But as for breastfeeding in public I tend to disagree with some of the ideas here, I don't think this sexual idea about breasts comes into play in relation to breast feeding because it isn't a sexual act.
    I agree. I don't see it as a sex act... If I see it happening out somewhere, I don't really pay attention to it.
    But many guys do. I was in the Army- I know the talk. Trust me, plenty of guys are turned on by it.
    It's not something I'm proud of my gender about. But there it is.
    The problem you face is that it can create chaotic situations and I think a balance of healthy discretion should be maintained.
    I wasn't aware of that.

    My point is simply that our societal norms are a combination of sensibilities and intellectual considerations. In light of this the hypocrisy point you are making is not as clear cut to my mind. What is considered "private" and what not is a dynamic thing and depends on the context.

    But since me expressing my thoughts in this thread is unwelcome, is being distorted and I'm such a troublesome and problematic poster... I'm out of this thread now. So any of you- don't bother replying to anything I've said since me typing out thoughts is apparently an open invitation to distort what I've said, turn that into accusations and personal attacks and then have Moderators admonish me over that.
    I'm Fed Up With it.
    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended
    The problem is one of proportionality, seeing a man's junk is different from seeing a woman's breast, if you were comparaing it to her lady garden then it would be a more equal comparison.
    Maybe, but I was more talking in terms of how we decide what should be appropriate for showing in public. Point is, it's complicated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    But since me expressing my thoughts in this thread is unwelcome, is being distorted and I'm such a troublesome and problematic poster... I'm out of this thread now. So any of you- don't bother replying to anything I've said since me typing out thoughts is apparently an open invitation to distort what I've said, turn that into accusations and personal attacks and then have Moderators admonish me over that.
    I'm Fed Up With it.
    Huh?
    PMT

    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended
    The problem is one of proportionality, seeing a man's junk is different from seeing a woman's breast, if you were comparaing it to her lady garden then it would be a more equal comparison.
    Maybe, but I was more talking in terms of how we decide what should be appropriate for showing in public. Point is, it's complicated.
    Fair point, it's complicated alright though. If you ask me at times we are still rebelling against hangovers from Victorian times when even chair legs had to be cover lest they'd be considered obscene.
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    even chair legs had to be covered
    lol



    So its not the "west" that has problems just parts of it, the most, well, conservative I guess. Even within the UK, I would not be surprized if in Scotland it were less problematic. But I do not know.
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    As this discussion has progressed, considering public displays of sexuality---
    2 things came to mind
    Is not the existance of the nursing infant a strong indicator of the mother's sexuality?
    and
    Immagined scenes----picture a woman nursing an infant with one nipple, while twirling a tassle with the other.

    There is nothing ever inapropriate with sexuality. (justmyopinion)
    But, I do find seeing others copulating a bit embarrasing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Again, tilting at windmills. Yes, there are differences but neither eyes nor crying is considered a Personal Private Part. It's Just the way it is.
    I didn't make it all the way it is.

    Your extremist viewpoints are as absurd as me saying I can pee where I damn well please and if you don't like the sight of my junk- don't look. And while you're allowed that opinion- you're not allowed to actually DO whatever you please. That is the reality. I agree that sometimes it is hypocritical. I agree that sometimes, it is absurd.

    At this point, I am going to trust that the majority of readers here have better reading comprehension than you do. Your posts are just too consistently aggressive, flaming, hostile, dishonest, misleading, personal and emotional to always get caught up in it. I'm ignoring your rebuttals at this point. I have defended my stance and I have been clear and my points are reasonable, middle ground and quite socially acceptable in spite or your twists and distortions.

    I'll take you off the ignore list after a week or so or if I butt out of this thread- whichever comes first.
    Sorry to break it to you champ, but I am legally allowed to breastfeed in public. This is not an extremist attitude, but a legal and one based on my rights and my child's rights to be fed. You may think that because I believe women should be allowed to breastfeed in public is extremist, well, that is your opinion and you are free to it. But that does not give you the right to stop me or any other woman from exercising our legal rights. That is pretty much what it comes down to. So poo poo all you want, compare breastfeeding to urinating in public and defecating in public as much as yuou want. You still have no say in where and how women breastfeed. Which is a good thing. Sanity prevails.

    What I am not allowed to do is drop my pants and pee in public. Neither are you.

    Your so called "junk" has nothing to do with it. Reason being is that urine is classified as human waste and thus, can be dangerous for human beings. Breastmilk is not.

    Your switch to the sexualisation of the female breast while breastfeeding and how this is possibly a reason why it must be kept private is interesting. If someone is sick enough to sexualise a child feeding, then that is their problem. Not the woman's. There are people who are sick enough to look at children and sexualise them. Does that mean we never let our children out but keep them locked from view of everyone? No. Because that would be stupid. The same goes for the female's breast. So women can either stress about what complete strangers are going to think when she breastfeeds, or she can be concerned with ensuring her child is fed and stops screaming the building down and getting upset. Personally speaking, my child's needs come first. Thankfully we live in a society that ensures that women are legally allowed to breastfeed in public.

    that means that one gender can be given special allowances that the other gender is disallowed from.
    When men can lactate, they too can enjoy the joys of breastfeeding.

    Women breastfeeding in public is not a special allowance. Certainly, you can only believe this if you view the breast as being a solely sexual thing. But it is not. It's actual and real purpose is not to give men hard-on's but to provide sustenance for one's child. Just because you and I cannot dispose of our human waste products in public does not mean that women cannot breastfeed in public. Human waste products = danger to the health and wellbeing of those around you. Breastfeeding = feeding a child. Our breasts were designed with one thing in mind. To breastfeed.

    If you feel that is a special allowance, take it up with natural selection and human evolution.



    Quote Originally Posted by adelady
    In alphabetical order - Neverfly, Seagypsy, Tranquille. OK everyone. Stop and think for a minute.

    What's the problem here? The basic problem is the same as the general Western society one. Seeing breasts as primarily, or even entirely, as sexual rather than multifunctional like other parts of the body which also have sexual uses, mouth or hands for example.

    Cons. You say that you're arguing about breast feeding in public. So how come these several walls of text don't mention sex when discussing breasts. There are a few prissy references to things that should be/ are done in private - without mentioning sexual activity, but concentrating on a (too frequently described as) Anglo-Saxon obsession with excretion functions.
    Personally, I cannot understand how and why he is complaining that women get a special allowance or special treatment because we can breastfeed in public but apparently men cannot urinate in public. That because he cannot whip out his penis, women are given a special allowance because we can whip out our breast in public to breastfeed.

    And certainly, it has gone somewhat off topic in that regard. But to even compare the two is just as obscene as people demanding women don't breastfeed because they view it as being something sexual or they only associate the female breasts with sex and so a child breastfeeding is suddenly overtly sexual.

    The sickest part of that argument is that in sexualising the female breast while she breastfeeds, such individuals are also sexualising the child as well.

    Pros. And when arguing in favour of public breast feeding, you really need to take the objections to breast exposure head-on. The sexual one. There's also the problem of far too many breast feeding women, especially in those morning coffee groups, treating the feed-change-settle process as entirely public. One reason why many people dislike seeing breast feeding in cafes is that they're worried the baby will shortly be changed on the restaurant table or in the pram beside it - which is totally unacceptable whether the babe is fed by bottle or breast.
    The reason it is unacceptable to change a baby's nappy in public is because it is human waste and doing so shows a complete and utter lack of hygiene and can endanger the health and safety of others around you. In an eating establishment especially, you run the risk of contaminating the food you are consuming or contaminating anything you touch in there afterwards.

    Having done the whole coffee run with mother's groups, etc, I have never once seen a parent change their child in public. I have seen myself and other women, when unable to find a change room, actually walk back to our respective cars and change the baby in the open boot or in the backseat of the car, away from everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    even chair legs had to be covered
    lol



    So its not the "west" that has problems just parts of it, the most, well, conservative I guess. Even within the UK, I would not be surprized if in Scotland it were less problematic. But I do not know.
    I'm intrigued by the Scotland comment-why would you think that? Do you think they are more tolerant?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Sorry to break it to you champ,
    Sorry to break it to you champ, but I am ignoring your dishonest and misleading distortions from here on out.

    Carry on, thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Having done the whole coffee run with mother's groups, etc, I have never once seen a parent change their child in public. I have seen myself and other women, when unable to find a change room, actually walk back to our respective cars and change the baby in the open boot or in the backseat of the car, away from everyone.
    I was recently in a public men's "rest" room (silly phrase, that)
    and there was a changing table with a bin for used diapers, and a sink with sanitizer.

    Yippee equal rights and equal responsibilities. (and, it's about freaking time)
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    even chair legs had to be covered
    lol



    So its not the "west" that has problems just parts of it, the most, well, conservative I guess. Even within the UK, I would not be surprized if in Scotland it were less problematic. But I do not know.
    I'm intrigued by the Scotland comment-why would you think that? Do you think they are more tolerant?
    I think it is because Scotland has seen a recent push to encourage breastfeeding from the Government - [Warning, image of woman breastfeeding in public in the link - avert your eyes lest you see some sideboob and child's head]..

    I did find an interesting article about breastfeeding in the US, which discusses the sexualisation of breasts and the causes and reasons that so few women do breastfeed at all once they leave the hospital. And it shows how some of the attitudes displayed in this thread actually work towards reducing breastfeeding rates in the US at least (and possibly elsewhere):

    Americans think breasts are primarily for enhancing sexual activity, which results in widespread discomfort when they are reminded that breasts go into babies' mouths. While our culture defines breasts primarily as enhancing sexual appeal, other cultures emphasize the "sexiness," if you will, of other body parts: buttocks, hips, shoulders, feet. It varies according to culture, since sexual attractiveness is always culturally defined.

    Yet the American obsession with breasts is so unique that it is often puzzling to people from other cultures. One of my graduate students who conducted field work in Samoa reported to me that when she told a Samoan woman that American men like to suck on women's breasts, the Samoan was amazed. She asked my student, apparently with genuine interest and concern, "Do American men like to pretend they're babies?" That is how strictly Samoans define the purpose of women's breasts. In many countries, breastfeeding in public is as mundane an activity as public conversation; no one is concerned when women use their breasts in public for their primary biological function: to feed babies.

    My purpose today is not to argue that we should think more like Samoans, but to point out that the American obsession with breasts has consequences most Americans fail to consider: ready access to human milk is vital to babies' short- and long-term health. We are all affected by our culture's sexual emphasis on breasts and our consequent discomfort with breastfeeding in public. While people from other cultures often find this controversy inexplicable, the reasons for the controversy are obvious to Americans – even those of us who fully support breastfeeding in public. We understand that many equate public breastfeeding with lewd behavior. However, equating breastfeeding with vulgarity has dire consequences; this attitude lowers the country's breastfeeding rates which in turn affects women's and children's short and long-term health. If women are made to feel uncomfortable with public breastfeeding, breastfeeding becomes difficult, if not impossible, to sustain. Women who have successfully breastfed for long periods of time know that unless women can feed their babies anytime, anywhere, they're going to end up housebound. And it's the rare American woman who is willing to be housebound for months on end. So, many women give up breastfeeding early on and opt for the bottle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly
    Sorry to break it to you champ, but I am ignoring your dishonest and misleading distortions from here on out.

    Carry on, thread.
    Oh, so you're back, are you?

    Because I distinctly remember your huffing and foot stomping exit from this thread a few posts ago. Welcome back!
    Last edited by Tranquille; July 13th, 2013 at 11:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Having done the whole coffee run with mother's groups, etc, I have never once seen a parent change their child in public. I have seen myself and other women, when unable to find a change room, actually walk back to our respective cars and change the baby in the open boot or in the backseat of the car, away from everyone.
    I was recently in a public men's "rest" room (silly phrase, that)
    and there was a changing table with a bin for used diapers, and a sink with sanitizer.

    Yippee equal rights and equal responsibilities. (and, it's about freaking time)
    In Australia, the baby change rooms are usually unisex.
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    That's an excellent article Tranquille - thanks.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    interesting article about breastfeeding in the US

    Americans think breasts are primarily for enhancing sexual activity, which results in widespread discomfort when they are reminded that breasts go into babies' mouths. While our culture defines breasts primarily as enhancing sexual appeal, other cultures emphasize the "sexiness," if you will, of other body parts: buttocks, hips, shoulders, feet. It varies according to culture, since sexual attractiveness is always culturally defined.

    Yet the American obsession with breasts is so unique that it is often puzzling to people from other cultures. One of my graduate students who conducted field work in Samoa reported to me that when she told a Samoan woman that American men like to suck on women's breasts, the Samoan was amazed. She asked my student, apparently with genuine interest and concern, "Do American men like to pretend they're babies?" That is how strictly Samoans define the purpose of women's breasts. In many countries, breastfeeding in public is as mundane an activity as public conversation; no one is concerned when women use their breasts in public for their primary biological function: to feed babies.

    My purpose today is not to argue that we should think more like Samoans, but to point out that the American obsession with breasts has consequences most Americans fail to consider: ready access to human milk is vital to babies' short- and long-term health. We are all affected by our culture's sexual emphasis on breasts and our consequent discomfort with breastfeeding in public. While people from other cultures often find this controversy inexplicable, the reasons for the controversy are obvious to Americans – even those of us who fully support breastfeeding in public. We understand that many equate public breastfeeding with lewd behavior. However, equating breastfeeding with vulgarity has dire consequences; this attitude lowers the country's breastfeeding rates which in turn affects women's and children's short and long-term health. If women are made to feel uncomfortable with public breastfeeding, breastfeeding becomes difficult, if not impossible, to sustain. Women who have successfully breastfed for long periods of time know that unless women can feed their babies anytime, anywhere, they're going to end up housebound. And it's the rare American woman who is willing to be housebound for months on end. So, many women give up breastfeeding early on and opt for the bottle.
    I find the article to be biased and overgeneralizing of Americans. Some Americans over-sexualize everything and others do not. We do not have a mainstream culture here. What is acceptable in one part of town will not be acceptable in another. We are a culture of subcultures where mores vary from one region to the next sometimes traveling just a few blocks will completely change the acceptable range of public behaviors one can participate in without social backlash.

    I have been married three times and had a couple of long term relationship and none of the American husbands ever even made an attempt to suckle my breasts. Some men like that but it is a fetish that SOME have. The implications that American men in general are these dirty over sexed perverts is this person's opinion and not a fact.

    One could as easily argue that breastfeeding lost its popularity when the feminist movement hit the USA. As my mother and grandmother told me, formula was pushed so that women could burn their bras and demand to be equals in the work force. Motherhood was shunned by some early feminists as they refused to be stuck at home being a baby making machine. Which in many cases translated into not wanting to be mothers either. They often chose to bottle feed to force fathers to engage in the process of raising a newborn too and so that they could go back to work and prove a point that women and men are equals in all ways. Equal but different was treated as an insult back then.

    It's only been in the last 20 years or so that children of these fundy feminists made conscious decisions to be stay at home moms because so many of us grew up with mom always at work. My sister and I almost never saw our mother because she was working in the coal mines. We were always with sitters or my great grandmother. I don't even know if I was breastfed or not. I know that when my first was born my mom encouraged me to switch him to bottles as fast as possible because breastfeeding was a pain and not because doing it in public was a problem. but because going back to work was difficult. Going back to work IS difficult if your milk comes in and you can't go somewhere to express it and your shirt ends up soaked because the leak pads simply cannot hold back the flood of milk forcing its way down.

    Our culture changes from one generation to the next. And this article is biased and paints a very distorted view of how Americans in general view things. To base conclusions on comments made in the 60's and 80's by one guy is absurd. That was twenty to thirty years ago. And is not representative of attitudes in general today. it may not have even been the attitudes then. It was just the attitude of one guy.

    It also makes assumptions as to why women stop breastfeeding. This is NOT a good article. It is a person's opinion based on very little facts and a whole lot of assumptions.

    It also implies that Americans are abnormal in wanting there to be discretion when breastfeeding. Stating that other cultures are ok with it. Samoans for instance. Yes many tribal people are still ok with it and that's fine. But most modern cultures will have people who have sexualized the breast to the point that exposure makes people feel uneasy. For instance any Muslim country, and in Europe obviously there are still issues, as well as Australia. So trying to blame it on Americans a bit ridiculous.

    It should be blamed on whoever decided that a woman's breast was something to be ashamed of and I can bet you need to look at religion to find that answer. And religion is not an American thing, or a new things. It is a human thing that has existed for ages. Atheists are a minority in this world.
    Last edited by seagypsy; July 13th, 2013 at 05:07 PM.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Having done the whole coffee run with mother's groups, etc, I have never once seen a parent change their child in public. I have seen myself and other women, when unable to find a change room, actually walk back to our respective cars and change the baby in the open boot or in the backseat of the car, away from everyone.
    I was recently in a public men's "rest" room (silly phrase, that)
    and there was a changing table with a bin for used diapers, and a sink with sanitizer.

    Yippee equal rights and equal responsibilities. (and, it's about freaking time)
    lol If its in a mall it makes sense. I see older men walking like sulking toddlers behind their shopping frenzied wives at times in the mall and the wife won't let them sit down to rest, but if he claims he has to use the bathroom, he can get away with going there to rest for a bit. Poor guy. For that matter I have done that when my daughter was dragging me around a mall and not letting me rest.

    Found this article about a recent incident where a woman changed her son's diaper in the seating area of a starbucks. so not having witnessed it personally, doesn't mean it never happens.

    http://www.today.com/moms/are-some-p...ging-1C9975046

    and again here

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...dle-store.html

    Quote Originally Posted by from the second article
    'It's really frustrating as a parent or as a child care provider,' said Jami Dennis, president of Glendale-based ABC Nannies.

    Dennis says a lot of family friendly businesses don't have changing tables, but doing a diaper change out in the open should only be a parent's last resort.

    'To avoid situations where you make other people uncomfortable, I would try to do it in private,' Dennis said.
    Last edited by seagypsy; July 13th, 2013 at 07:30 PM. Reason: additional info found and didn't want to double post
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Seagypsy
    One could as easily argue that breastfeeding lost its popularity when the feminist movement hit the USA. As my mother and grandmother told me, formula was pushed so that women could burn their bras and demand to be equals in the work force.
    Nuh. It was the formula companies pushing "modern", "hygienic" feeding in the 50s along with strong marketing that got downright aggressive during the 60s. Infant formula - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    but commercial formulas did not begin to seriously compete with evaporated milk formulas until the 1950s. The reformulation and concentration of Similac in 1951, and the introduction (by Mead Johnson) of Enfamil (for "infant meal") in 1959 were accompanied by marketing campaigns that provided inexpensive formula to hospitals and pediatricians. By the early 1960s, commercial formulas were more commonly used than evaporated milk formulas in the United States, which all but vanished in the 1970s. By the early 1970s, over 75% of American babies were fed on formulas, almost entirely commercially produced.
    Ask any woman older than 50 whether she or someone she knows got one of those free gift packs when leaving hospital after a child was born. Most will tell you that they got a 'starter pack' of formula and a bottle of sterilising solution along with other stuff, probably a supply of teats if not a couple of small bottles. And that aggressive marketing is still going on elsewhere in the world, especially the poorer regions. The major formula companies have given assurances that they no longer push formula through the maternity hospitals and child health clinics in Africa, but every time anyone checks such things, the "local" representatives seem not to have read the company's policies. There's still good reason why so many people maintain boycotts against these companies.

    Ascended
    I'm with you with the screaming child bit, I think is disturbing to everybodies calm because it implies the child is in distress and it's not your child you can't do anything about it, it makes people, at least subconsciously, have more hostile feelings towards the mother for not addressing the childs distress. I think we are all hardwired to naturally react to a distressed child.
    One thing that no-one's mentioned is the big reality about breast feeding and using stored breast milk as against the breast. If a child due for a feed cries, stuffing a bottle in its mouth is not going to help the mother whose breasts have already responded in the usual way. There's nothing quite so attractive as the woman rushing past you to get somewhere private to deal with those expanding wet patches on the front of her aching, overfull breasts.

    Unless we think she should express milk, save it in a bottle, wait for the baby to wake for a feed, give the baby to someone else to feed .... and go off somewhere private to change her bra, her nursing pads and maybe her shirt because the milk's flowing regardless. Perhaps she should take an empty bottle and a hand pump to express the milk into another bottle while the baby is fed elsewhere by someone else.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Seagypsy
    One could as easily argue that breastfeeding lost its popularity when the feminist movement hit the USA. As my mother and grandmother told me, formula was pushed so that women could burn their bras and demand to be equals in the work force.
    Nuh. It was the formula companies pushing "modern", "hygienic" feeding in the 50s along with strong marketing that got downright aggressive during the 60s. Infant formula - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    but commercial formulas did not begin to seriously compete with evaporated milk formulas until the 1950s. The reformulation and concentration of Similac in 1951, and the introduction (by Mead Johnson) of Enfamil (for "infant meal") in 1959 were accompanied by marketing campaigns that provided inexpensive formula to hospitals and pediatricians. By the early 1960s, commercial formulas were more commonly used than evaporated milk formulas in the United States, which all but vanished in the 1970s. By the early 1970s, over 75% of American babies were fed on formulas, almost entirely commercially produced.
    Ask any woman older than 50 whether she or someone she knows got one of those free gift packs when leaving hospital after a child was born. Most will tell you that they got a 'starter pack' of formula and a bottle of sterilising solution along with other stuff, probably a supply of teats if not a couple of small bottles. And that aggressive marketing is still going on elsewhere in the world, especially the poorer regions. The major formula companies have given assurances that they no longer push formula through the maternity hospitals and child health clinics in Africa, but every time anyone checks such things, the "local" representatives seem not to have read the company's policies. There's still good reason why so many people maintain boycotts against these companies.

    Ascended
    I'm with you with the screaming child bit, I think is disturbing to everybodies calm because it implies the child is in distress and it's not your child you can't do anything about it, it makes people, at least subconsciously, have more hostile feelings towards the mother for not addressing the childs distress. I think we are all hardwired to naturally react to a distressed child.
    One thing that no-one's mentioned is the big reality about breast feeding and using stored breast milk as against the breast. If a child due for a feed cries, stuffing a bottle in its mouth is not going to help the mother whose breasts have already responded in the usual way. There's nothing quite so attractive as the woman rushing past you to get somewhere private to deal with those expanding wet patches on the front of her aching, overfull breasts.

    Unless we think she should express milk, save it in a bottle, wait for the baby to wake for a feed, give the baby to someone else to feed .... and go off somewhere private to change her bra, her nursing pads and maybe her shirt because the milk's flowing regardless. Perhaps she should take an empty bottle and a hand pump to express the milk into another bottle while the baby is fed elsewhere by someone else.
    I agree with you 100%.
    I actually did mention in post 91 about the horrors of breast leakage while trying to work as a possible reason why some would choose to stop breastfeeding. It isn't always because they were shunned for doing it. I would leak a lot. In the shower I would literally be spraying milk all over the walls. because I was trying to breastfeed at home as well as pump milk to leave for my son when I went to work. My body then got on this weird schedule that provided for the feeding of what seemed like two children. because I would feed and express. And while at work, the sound of any crying baby would trigger milk to flow. Since I worked in a restaurant of a hotel, babies were often around.

    When you work in hospitality, your appearance is everything. Imagine if you having your order taken by a waitress in a uniform white shirt and your baby begins to make a little of a fuss and suddenly you can see through the waitress' top because her breasts suddenly went into emergency production at the sound of your child's cry.

    For the waitress making a mad unexplained dash away from the table is not an option, but neither is standing there in milk puddles. Choosing to ice pack your breasts and switch to formula so that your breasts stop producing is about the only option you have when you really need your job in order to feed the little mouth that is at home with a sitter.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Thanks to a dodgy internet connection I haven't been able to keep up with this thread but it is a topic close to my heart.

    To compare breastfeeding to urinating purely because they are both bodily functions holds no water. Breathing is a bodily function.

    To compare the need of a woman being able to breastfeed where ever and when ever to a man being able to urinate in where ever and when ever does not make sense. Urinating is elimination of bodily waste, breastfeeding is feeding a baby as nature intended. Moreover women manage to make it to toilets, even pregnant women that need to pee ever hour or so.

    To say that breastfeeding women are demanding an unfounded sense of entitlement for wanting to be able to feed in public in peace and with the support of the community is illogical. I would say the part of society that doesn't support a woman feeding in public has the unfounded sense of entitlement. Moreover, it's not about the mother's right to feed her baby, it's about the baby's need to be fed.

    To insist that a mother be discreet / private implies she is doing something shameful. I'll say it again, she's feeding her baby, nothing more. There is nothing shameful about feeding a baby. It's no more shameful than eating a sandwich at a cafe.

    The spectrum of 'normal' behaviour for babies is enormous, there is no one size fits all solutions. I had a window of about 2 minutes from when my son decided he was hungry until he would shake the foundations of our house with his cries.

    The OP has a very valid point that many women have experienced, that it's ok to flash as much boob around so long as it's for the sexual titillation but not ok when it involves feeding a baby. I don't know if this is because there is an objection to a boob being used for the purpose other than sexual titillation or it reminds us that we are mere animals or some other reason. Let me put it this way, so long as there is a hungry baby in proximity a boob should no longer have any sexual meaning.

    As for some women who make a public spectacle of themselves when feeding their babies, just don't look. Although spending quite a bit of time around nursing mothers I've yet to encounter such a woman but if there are these women out there who are making a big song and dance about it then ignoring them is the best way to send them a message to be quiet and just get on with it.

    Breastfeeding has a myriad of health benefits for mothers and babies yet it can be difficult, painful, time consuming, stressful and restrictive. It's the least we can do to support mothers to feed their babies wherever and whenever they need to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    I don't know how it is in America but here in England breast-feeding is frowned upon in public. This young woman Hollie McNish has this to say about it and I think she makes some very important points that shouldn't be ignored.....

    Impassioned Public Breastfeeding Poem By Hollie McNish - LolJam.com - A social media entertainment website and portal filled with funny, interesting, and odd photoblogs.

    And talented too.
    You must be kidding!! I breast fed my kids in public (discreetly) in 1980!
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    Well Said Busy Bee!
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    I am ignoring Tranquille, But I will respond to you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
    To compare breastfeeding to urinating purely because they are both bodily functions holds no water. Breathing is a bodily function.
    Irrelevant. The comparison was made with a Key Point you failed to quote: Personal/Private function.Sexual Body Parts. Public Exposure.

    The point has repeatedly been made that
    -It is allowable.
    -Womens breasts are sexualized. Lungs are not. This is crucial to why there is debate. Neither breastfeeding nor peeing are normal sex acts. Both are fetish sex acts however. Both involve sexual body parts.
    By ignoring/neglecting this you were attempting to claim that the comparison is invalid. Once that point is made, it is clear why the comparison is valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
    To compare the need of a woman being able to breastfeed where ever and when ever to a man being able to urinate in where ever and when ever does not make sense. Urinating is elimination of bodily waste, breastfeeding is feeding a baby as nature intended.
    It does make sense. I will explain it out carefully for you.
    Peeing- is as nature intended.
    Both involve sexual body parts. Both are used in sexual acts. Exposing those parts publicly is frowned upon by society.
    Ignoring this reality in order to make it appear as though it is a strictly casual act is what is nonsense.

    But more frustrating is by reacting as if you're personally offended by a valid and realistic comparison, you are painting a false image as if I am condemning the act and I'm really getting very tired of being misquoted like that.
    Now, I understand you point out that you didn't read the thread- But I don't care about the Excuse. You are quoting large portions of my words and you hold the responsibility to get it right. Because I have been repeatedly misquoted and had my posts turned into the opposite of what I said at this point- I'm Tired Of It.
    More to follow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
    To say that breastfeeding women are demanding an unfounded sense of entitlement for wanting to be able to feed in public in peace and with the support of the community is illogical.
    Well, that is not what I said. Now is it?

    What I pointed out is that Public Exposure of Sexual Body Parts is frowned upon.
    Unless you can provide evidence that in the Western Industrialized countries that is NOT the case (You cannot and I can provide a whole lot of evidence that is IS), then your entire claim falls to dust.
    So what is with the entitlement claim?
    Public Exposure.
    Failing to provide evidence that Public Exposure is not taboo (also illegal in many places,) what you have left is Public Exposure. The entitlement claim or special treatment claim has been spelled out clearly and here will be again briefly:
    If a man exposes himself in public- even just to pee- he can be charged with a FELONY Sex Offense.
    But if a woman exposes her sexual body parts- just to breastfeed- she is NOT charged with a FELONY Sex Offense.
    That is a double Standard. This is very, very simple and very, very, clear.
    That is Reality- like it or not. By simply pointing it out- I am not advocating it, nor am I condemning it. I am, however, condemning the entitlement attitude that special treatment is somehow deserved.

    In fact, in spite of the double standard, I argued in favor of women being able to breastfeed as needed. The only thing I added to it was show some freaking class. Try to plan it out to avoid having to. The same as everyone else has to do.


    Now here's something real kinky for all the men out there because I'm not sure how many know this...
    And I'm being scientific here:
    Breastfeeding produces endorphins- it's normal for most women to feel the same sensations as that leading to orgasm.
    Women Who Orgasm During Breastfeeding | momlogic.com
    Say what?
    Orgasms and breast feeding - Breastfeeding Message Board - HealthBoards

    Stop acting so prudish and claiming that there is nothing sexual about it. That's false.

    The entire outrage expressed by the reality that bothered/offended some on here is based on quite a bit of falsehood, from denial of societal taboos or standards or laws, denial of a very clear double standard and gender bias, misquoting and misrepresentation of what I said, to total denial of the nature of breastfeeding, itself.

    This Is SCIENCE.
    And feeling offended by the facts is not grounds to continuously make posts that are, frankly, dishonest. It is not grounds to throw unwarranted accusations.
    Just Deal With it.
    Last edited by Neverfly; July 14th, 2013 at 03:29 AM.
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    Neverfly, I certainly do NOT find Breastfeeding or PEEING a sexual act!! They may entail anatomy parts that are considered sexual but breastfeeding is just that....FEEDing and peeing is just that a biological need.........however...when my son at age three tried to pee on the cars as they drove by, we had to have a little "talk"
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Neverfly, I certainly do NOT find Breastfeeding or PEEING a sexual act!!
    See links I posted above. The majority of women that do it have an "interesting" result... Not all do. It's also interesting that no one has mentioned what I posted in those links til now- I know I'm not the only one that knows about it as it is quite normal. Just... hush hush, maybe?

    I agree, I do not see the act of breastfeeding as sexual but that is probably because I am a man. I've never done it. I do not think it should be condemned in any manner to normally breastfeed. It is healthier, the majority of the time, for infant and mother.
    I do not see peeing as a sexual act and that doesn't even produce the endorphins....

    A valid point was made that peeing, unlike breastfeeding, is a waste product that can have adverse health effects. Well... let's be honest, animals don't use toilets and we're surrounded by them. They pee everywhere.
    The adverse health effects of pee seem pretty minor and as Nature Intended, as well.

    In the end, if one person can be charged with a felony, but another isn't- I find that to be a double standard.
    An accepted double standard sets a precedent.

    I think that should be addressed.
    The O.P. talked about a hypocrisy- is this also not that same hypocrisy at work?

    The only viable solution I can see is that breastfeeding is supportively understood and taken care of with class and discretion. Because the only OTHER option would be to make it fair by letting men publicly expose their sex parts.
    I see that causing more harm than good...
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