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Thread: The innate repulsion to decapitate defenceless animals

  1. #1 The innate repulsion to decapitate defenceless animals 
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    When i think in decapitate a rabbit, a pig, a deer i experience the sensations of decapitate myself. Feel i am bleeding the pure love i perceive in that animal brain . Specially when imagine a rabbit. Then each time i eat meat feel as a cannibal, a degenerated person. Does God Allow the Hunting and Killing of Animals? When i consider science is far to understand animal intelligence (kea, dolphin,...) and the fact that they constitute an important part of the economic system (detective dogs, dogs for blind men, newspaper dogs, horses as therapy for disabled, etc) my guilt worse. The Psychology of Killing and the Origins of War | smellslikescience.com Do you think the war is a natural human tendence?


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    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
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    You've got two major topics in there really - revulsion at hurting other creatures and war. For an excellent review of War and the psychology of violence I would direct you to Steven Pinkers "The Better Angels of our Nature" - this will give you a good global view of violence and where we are with it now.

    As for hurting other animals - lots of people do it, lots of people seem unable to cross into empathy mode, they understand the impact of pain only when its applied to themselves and not when its applied to others. A lot of us feel it is important to treat animals with respect and to make sure their life is a good one (good by their standards, not ours) even if their life is ultimately intended as human food. We are all in a food chain and humans being mostly at the top only have to worry about other humans but it is not beyond us to raise animals for food and still treat them with respect - it is better for everyone. An animal that has lived a good life ie received an optimal diet and living conditions will be more nutritious than something that has been mistreated. The animal gets to enjoy its life, the human gets better nutrition and health........simples.

    But also don't forget that casual cruelty is not the sole preserve of humans. Spend a week in Spring with my beautiful black and white cat and its like living in a Saw movie (although I have to say I haven't had one dead/dying creature yet this year.....maybe she ate them all :-( ). Killer whales and lots of other creatures torture their prey before they eat - nature red in tooth and claw. However, in my book just because other animals do it humans should not be excused and I cannot understand the mentality of anyone that looks at any other living organism and the first thing that comes to mind is to hurt it.


    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    As for hurting other animals - lots of people do it, lots of people seem unable to cross into empathy mode, they understand the impact of pain only when its applied to themselves and not when its applied to others.
    That is not a simple statement. It does not mean that a person that kills or harms must therefor not feel any empathy. Quite the opposite, in fact, I think many still do. But they do what needs doing.
    This is why when you hunt, you must do a bit more than just observe your prey- you must relate to your prey. You must know its pain in order to inflict the least amount possible. You must understand its design so that you can be most efficient.
    And above all, you must express your gratitude to your prey, for feeding your family.

    In defensive posture, the same holds true.

    You must know your opponent, observe their movements and defend according to the most effective and efficient response. You must be able to know what is going to hurt them. And you cannot do that without empathy.

    One that hunts or defends that does not take time to mourn the dead is only harming themselves in the long run.
    You must be willing to shed tears for the ones you must harm or kill and you must be willing to accept that and be grateful for it.
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    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
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    Quite right - I wasn't explicit enough but I intended that statement to apply to those that torture animals for fun.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Quite right - I wasn't explicit enough but I intended that statement to apply to those that torture animals for fun.
    Eh, I posted a point of view, really.

    Given the nature of the O.P., I think it's important to differentiate between them as the O.P. may assume that any and all harm is so motivated.

    And I don't agree with that.
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    I don't think there is an "innate" revulsion to killing or even decapitating an animal. It's something you've learned. People have been killing and eating animals for pretty much as long as humans have existed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    I don't think there is an "innate" revulsion to killing or even decapitating an animal. It's something you've learned. People have been killing and eating animals for pretty much as long as humans have existed.
    Nature/nurture- this is a good question. I have observed stark differences between children on this one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    As for hurting other animals - lots of people do it, lots of people seem unable to cross into empathy mode, they understand the impact of pain only when its applied to themselves and not when its applied to others.
    That is not a simple statement. It does not mean that a person that kills or harms must therefor not feel any empathy. Quite the opposite, in fact, I think many still do. But they do what needs doing.
    This is why when you hunt, you must do a bit more than just observe your prey- you must relate to your prey. You must know its pain in order to inflict the least amount possible. You must understand its design so that you can be most efficient.
    And above all, you must express your gratitude to your prey, for feeding your family.

    In defensive posture, the same holds true.

    You must know your opponent, observe their movements and defend according to the most effective and efficient response. You must be able to know what is going to hurt them. And you cannot do that without empathy.

    One that hunts or defends that does not take time to mourn the dead is only harming themselves in the long run.
    You must be willing to shed tears for the ones you must harm or kill and you must be willing to accept that and be grateful for it.
    I hate to do this but I have to somewhat disagree with you. You probably didn't mean it so black and white but you state that people must have empathy for their prey when they hunt. Your Native American background likely causes you to feel compelled to think that way, but from my experience (too much time spent with rednecks) the only concern many hunters express is conservation of ammunition and the challenge of the hunt itself. All too often the hunt isn't even for food. Its for game and to mount a trophy on the wall.

    Being able to anticipate the movements of prey and calculate the most efficient means of killing it does not require empathy. Doing it without empathy is simply called killing in cold blood. and it doesn't always apply to prey intended as food. It can be when a sociopath decides another person's existence has become an inconvenience to them, or when a soldier has to take out a target from a great distance without ever seeing the face of the enemy.

    The empathy you are describing tends to be concentrated among tribal heritage. When meat was not an abundant resource and hunters would sometimes lose the contest against the prey and instead be the one to die. These days, the ones slaughtering the animals are rarely the people who will eventually eat them. People who work at meat processing plants are simply doing a job for money. They do it day in and day out to the point that any empathy they may have initially felt has been long gone. And the majority of the meat eaters in modern society never get an opportunity to look into the eyes of the animal they consume.

    I have eaten rabbit several times but as you know, the idea of eating our new found friend (our black bunny) or giving him over to a family who intends to eat him horrifies me. And the only difference between him and the rabbits i have bought at the store, is that I have looked into his eyes and he has nudged me and licked my arm and shown trust for me. I have unintentionally but regularly anthropomorphized him as I have our pet anole.

    While for you or I we feel compelled to appreciate the life that was lost to support our own, it simply isn't a real requirement that modern society tends to hold to.

    I think it is an admirable trait to have, obviously, but I wouldn't take it to the extreme that the OP has. I don't think there is any thing inherently wrong with eating meat. But he has expressed that it is a moral dilemma for him. Morality being subjective, I have no grounds to say he is wrong anymore than anyone can say he is right.

    His feelings on the matter are valid for him, our feelings are valid for us and so on and so on.

    That doesn't mean I won't fight to protect animals from unnecessary cruelty in anyway I possibly can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I hate to do this but I have to somewhat disagree with you. You probably didn't mean it so black and white but you state that people must have empathy for their prey when they hunt.
    No, the closest I got to that was I said, "Quite the opposite, in fact, I think many still do."

    When I used the word, "must" several times in the post, it's meant as "should" or "this is how I think you should do it."
    A bit like a school teacher saying, "You must exercise your mind." It doesn't mean you have to or there will be dire consequences or that they will do so.

    A little later, I had posted these are my own points of view and not necessarily applicable to all people since some people are too stupid to do what I tell them to do.

    So, PBBBBTT!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I hate to do this but I have to somewhat disagree with you. You probably didn't mean it so black and white but you state that people must have empathy for their prey when they hunt.
    No, the closest I got to that was I said, "Quite the opposite, in fact, I think many still do."

    When I used the word, "must" several times in the post, it's meant as "should" or "this is how I think you should do it."
    A bit like a school teacher saying, "You must exercise your mind." It doesn't mean you have to or there will be dire consequences or that they will do so.

    A little later, I had posted these are my own points of view and not necessarily applicable to all people since some people are too stupid to do what I tell them to do.

    So, PBBBBTT!

    fair enough, and I am probably confusing empathy with sympathy. When I started responding to you there were no other posts. I took so long to type it all out that I didn't see all the others that came in between your post and mine.

    And I just noticed I didn't attempt to offer an answer to the OP question as to whether or not war was part of human nature. I think it is. War is simply an intensity level of conflict. I think all animals engage in it as a necessity to survival. Especially in communal life forms such as bees, ants, wolves, dolphins and chimpanzees.

    No species, plant or animal, can live without conflicting with the existence of some other species. Life maintains its existence by consuming life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    But also don't forget that casual cruelty is not the sole preserve of humans. Spend a week in Spring with my beautiful black and white cat and its like living in a Saw movie (although I have to say I haven't had one dead/dying creature yet this year.....maybe she ate them all :-( ). Killer whales and lots of other creatures torture their prey before they eat - nature red in tooth and claw. However, in my book just because other animals do it humans should not be excused and I cannot understand the mentality of anyone that looks at any other living organism and the first thing that comes to mind is to hurt it.
    domestic animals have to deal with jealous, and learn to compete with other pets, are involved in an humanizing process. I was read some primates kill other hordes for territory. But i dont know any genuine example of animal cruelty in the wild life. Sadism, perversity, 'hunting' are human categories only.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    But also don't forget that casual cruelty is not the sole preserve of humans. Spend a week in Spring with my beautiful black and white cat and its like living in a Saw movie (although I have to say I haven't had one dead/dying creature yet this year.....maybe she ate them all :-( ). Killer whales and lots of other creatures torture their prey before they eat - nature red in tooth and claw. However, in my book just because other animals do it humans should not be excused and I cannot understand the mentality of anyone that looks at any other living organism and the first thing that comes to mind is to hurt it.
    domestic animals have to deal with jealous, and learn to compete with other pets, are involved in an humanizing process. I was read some primates kill other hordes for territory. But i dont know any genuine example of animal cruelty in the wild life. Sadism, perversity, 'hunting' are human categories only.
    I have seen animals hunt for apparent sport. eagle vs goat I have also seen perversity. and sadism.chimp and frog
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    But i dont know any genuine example of animal cruelty in the wild life. Sadism, perversity, 'hunting' are human categories only.
    How much attention have you been paying to the natural order? Not much, apparently. We didn't get the trait out of thin air. Unless you believe we are diving creations of God.
    We are, in fact, products of evolution and our ancestry shows we're just as much animals as every other animal we share all their traits including cruelty.
    It's didn't suddenly pop up in just humans 3.5 billion years after life started here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    I don't think there is an "innate" revulsion to killing or even decapitating an animal. It's something you've learned. People have been killing and eating animals for pretty much as long as humans have existed.
    It is interesting. Could you show strong evidence about the hunter-gatherer men? I suspect the majority of the ancient humans were hunter-gatherers, but after they discovered agriculture became vegetarians. Some comtemporary societies deform their womens necks, some ancient japaneses deformed female feet, puritans whipped themselves. Culture cant distort human nature and do punishment widely accepted. I can't decapitate any chicken or rabbit without feel horror. Couldn't a rabbit be my pet as a cat is? Couldn't a chicken be my pet as a parrot is? Can you prove a cat's potential intelligence is higher than of a rabbit?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    But i dont know any genuine example of animal cruelty in the wild life. Sadism, perversity, 'hunting' are human categories only.
    I mean hunting for pleasure... Quote a case of sadism of a wild animal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    I can't decapitate any chicken or rabbit without feel horror.
    This sounds like a personal feeling; it is your nature to not wish heavy violence. That's fine, I respect it.
    But it is an individual trait and you cannot use one humans trait out of 7 billion, much less the entire animal kingdom, as a measurement.
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Couldn't a rabbit be my pet as a cat is?
    Yes. They are common pets- We have one. He's romping all over the garage as we speak.
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Couldn't a chicken be my pet as a parrot is?
    Yep. Many kids have pet chickens that die only of old age.
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Can you prove a cat's potential intelligence is higher than of a rabbit?
    Most definitely.
    But intelligence is not a measure of worthiness as a pet. Our lizard is not too bright.
    I had two iguanas once- they may as well have been mobile pet rocks that ate greens and mandarin oranges.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Have you never seen a cat "toying" with a mouse before the kill? If that's not "sadism" I don't know what is...
    Did you saw the same in wild cats?... I am not sure if it is sadism, an infant could do the same. Maybe cats are humanized, learn of humans. Feel jealous, compete with other pets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    But i dont know any genuine example of animal cruelty in the wild life. Sadism, perversity, 'hunting' are human categories only.
    I mean hunting for pleasure... Quote a case of sadism of a wild animal.
    You ask this of me after several others have given several examples?
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I have seen animals hunt for apparent sport. eagle vs goat I have also seen perversity. and sadism.chimp and frog
    Article
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/abstractdb...aspx?id=173981
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    I suspect the majority of the ancient humans were hunter-gatherers, but after they discovered agriculture became vegetarians
    Perhaps you should study culinary history. Vegetarians are quite a new phenomena.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Can you prove a cat's potential intelligence is higher than of a rabbit?
    Most definitely.
    But intelligence is not a measure of worthiness as a pet. Our lizard is not too bright.
    I had two iguanas once- they may as well have been mobile pet rocks that ate greens and mandarin oranges.
    Could you slowly decapitate your iguana? What could pass thru your mind? Could you decapitate a kea? (the most intelligent bird upon earth)
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    I suspect the majority of the ancient humans were hunter-gatherers, but after they discovered agriculture became vegetarians
    Perhaps you should study culinary history. Vegetarians are quite a new phenomena.
    Search: pytagoras - vegetarianism. Vegetarianism is maybe more old than the indu civilization.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Could you slowly decapitate your iguana? What could pass thru your mind? Could you decapitate a kea? (the most intelligent bird upon earth)
    I do not see what that has to do with what I had said.

    The answer is, no. I could not because, as pets, they trust me with their lives.
    I would not break that trust. My hunting style is not trapper. Nor is it deceptive.

    Now, in the wild, fair game is fair game. There is no trust there; there is survival. They can and will defend. I can well assure you that if I hunt an animal:
    -It will know I intend to take its life
    -It will be granted it's best defense against me
    -It will be mourned
    -It will not go to waste

    I do not think babies count as food. I do not eat nor will ever eat Balut.
    I do not think animals should be tricked, trapped or deceived into a slow death but I am rare in this in the natural world:
    http://www.cracked.com/article/109_n...r4=recommended

    Beware, while accurate, that article is written in typical hilarious "Cracked" style.
    That is a very personal code I follow. I agree that others don't I will even admit I have a lack of respect for those that don't.
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    Can you rule out the existence of the animal telepathy? Bilogist Rupert Sheldrake was done lots of experiments on dogs telepathy. If true, it could complicate the omnivore argumentation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Can you rule out the existence of the animal telepathy? Bilogist Rupert Sheldrake was done lots of experiments on dogs telepathy. If true, it could complicate the omnivore argumentation.
    You're stupid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I have seen animals hunt for apparent sport. eagle vs goat I have also seen perversity. and sadism.chimp and frog
    Plus this:
    Nature's 6 Most Diabolical Predators | Cracked.com
    And this:
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Have you never seen a cat "toying" with a mouse before the kill? If that's not "sadism" I don't know what is...
    Acting like humans somehow developed cruelty all alone is absurd.
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    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Could you slowly decapitate your iguana? What could pass thru your mind? Could you decapitate a kea? (the most intelligent bird upon earth)
    I do not see what that has to do with what I had said.

    The answer is, no. I could not because, as pets, they trust me with their lives.
    I would not break that trust. My hunting style is not trapper. Nor is it deceptive.

    Now, in the wild, fair game is fair game. There is no trust there; there is survival
    You are homo faber able to créate infinite food recipes, they not, they have no other choice apart of kill.
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    Well I'm done here. I have been pleasant and nice to the guy. At this point it seems he is dissatisfied with any answers that show flaw in his logic and he won't be happy until he is able to frustrate the hell out of those trying to help him understand to the point they call him names and stop patronizing his crankish behavior.

    Bezoar, if you don't want to eat meat, then don't. Stop whining about it. No one is demanding that you eat meat. Saves more for the rest of us. Just don't try to force your vegetarian ideals down our throats and we wont force dead animals down yours.

    Fair enough? good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    You are homo faber able to créate infinite food recipes, they not, they have no other choice apart of kill.
    I am homo sapiens sapiens- an animal.
    I never claimed I was Iron Chef.
    I cannot create infinite food recipes. I know maybe a handful, at best. I eat meat raw given the chance. I am not like you. I hunt prey- I kill my prey, I eat my prey. You feed on things that cannot even run away, much less defend themselves. You kill living things that provide the oxygen you breathe. You kill them and soak their seedlings and young in boiling water to soften them up in order to even be able to digest them.
    You do it without shame. You act as though you feel no guilt for eating their younglings and not allowing them to defend themselves from you and when they do show natural defense, such as capsiacin- you eat it even more calling it "spicy."

    I have no choice but to kill. No one has any choice but to either kill or die. No one.

    Our entire existence is based on our ability to devour eachother.
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    No species, plant or animal, can live without conflicting with the existence of some other species. Life maintains its existence by consuming life.
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    Oh my god. this is low standards. Are you joking? ha ha ha. They are insects, are extremely far from our filogenetics
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Oh my god. this is low standards. Are you joking? ha ha ha. They are insects, are extremely far from our filogenetics
    I posted two journal links as well.
    The Cracked article was more fun.

    Bezoar- you asked for examples but each one you receive you reject on ridiculous grounds.

    You do not care about examining the topic objectively. You pursue your beliefs with religious fervor, projecting your personal beliefs on all of humanity and you are preaching those beliefs to us.

    To repeatedly reject all that contradicts your beliefs is the sign of delusion. This thread is useless as long as you participate in it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post

    Fair enough? good.
    Ok, but everybody forgot to discuss in deep the the issue of decapitation.
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    They are insects
    So your distaste for killing and reverence for life only extends to those warm furry things?

    People Eating Tasty Animals
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    No, we didn't. decapitation is just a means of killing. We broadened it to killing in general. Maybe you are ok with killing in other ways but only decapitation bothers you? interesting. Still, your religious beliefs have no bearing on reality and whether or not eating meat is good or bad.

    Your personal aversion to decapitation is your own. You are not representative of our entire species. Decapitation is not something that human beings naturally are repulsed by.

    People used to be executed in such a manner when convicted of crimes and the towns people would come to watch. Many human beings actually seem to have a fascination with horrific scenes and that is why movies like "Saw", "Texas Chainsaw Massacre", and "Faces of Death" have great success. Some people love those movies others hate them.

    The way a human responds to such a thing varies from one human to the next depending on their life experiences and personal beliefs.

    If you don't like decapitating animals, then don't do it. No one is forcing you to. Just don't insist that we all follow your example.

    Especially since you provide no evidence to any of your ridiculous claims.

    This thread should have gone in the trash with from the OP since you brought "god's" opinion into as some sort of evidence. Stop preaching.
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    I'd rather decapitate an animal than fire a misplaced shot that caused its internal organs to release toxins into its body causing it to die a slow death. But that's just me, perhaps the animal would prefer the latter to spare people their personal aversions.
    Last edited by shlunka; May 22nd, 2013 at 08:36 PM.
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    Oh my god. this is low standards. Are you joking? ha ha ha. They are insects, are extremely far from our filogenetics
    Komodo dragons are reptiles not mammals, but have you seen how they kill their prey. They just bite it and inject venom. They follow it around, harass it and bother it - for days - it until it staggers and falls. Then they rip into it. Humans killing animals, even with clumsy rocks, spears, arrows or blunted knives that rarely kill instantly, can never manage this level of prolonging a painful death.

    And then there are all the others - birds and mammals as well as parasitic insects - that start eating prey before it has died.

    By the standards of all living things that must eat other living things to live, we're pretty fair average quality. And a lot "better" than many others.
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    I'm hungry. I don't have to decapitate my chicken, pluck it, dejoint it, skin it and debone it, because someone else did it for me.

    Thank you someone.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    The way a human responds to such a thing varies from one human to the next depending on their life experiences and personal beliefs.
    Try to créate AnimalDecap.com to sell homemade videos of animal decapitations. I asure you'll not sell one before to go to jail. People enjoy Saw 'cause curiosity to explore sadism. I doubt a Saw versión on defenceless animals could be acclaimed by audience.
    If you don't like decapitating animals, then don't do it. No one is forcing you to. Just don't insist that we all follow your example.
    Im not creating a vegetarian religion, im looking for answers. I want to understand why animal decapitation is morally right. Wars are for the annihilation of other humans, not of other species as happens in nature. You said wars are a natural instinct. What could you feel to see your son return without arms and cripple but acclaimed as a national hero? I'm not against nuclear weapons but WW2 could have been minimized? If you could back to WW2 times nothing could you do to minimize the devastation of thousands of people?

    Especially since you provide no evidence to any of your ridiculous claims.
    And you provide psychological or archeological evidence in favor to decap defenceless animals?
    Cultural heritage can forcé people to do fatal things against their own health Scarification: Ancient Body Art Leaving New Marks
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    I want to understand why animal decapitation is morally right
    Whose morals?
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    And I just noticed I didn't attempt to offer an answer to the OP question as to whether or not war was part of human nature. I think it is. War is simply an intensity level of conflict. I think all animals engage in it as a necessity to survival. Especially in communal life forms such as bees, ants, wolves, dolphins and chimpanzees.
    Humans exterminates pests for survival, but the complete annihilation of other humans can be classified as for survival? Should not first be exhausted all the possible diplomatic ways?
    No species, plant or animal, can live without conflicting with the existence of some other species. Life maintains its existence by consuming life
    Conflicting vs. Equilibrium of the Ecosystem. Are you a primatologist? An etologist? great!, you can end the controversy. Can you quote a link on these intriguing phenomena?
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    I want to understand why animal decapitation is morally right.
    I don't know whether any animals other than birds are decapitated when killed for food. Anyway, cutting the throat or total decapitation is done so that the animal dies as quickly as possible. It is, in fact, a moral choice - when choosing if I must do this thing what's the best way to do it? Answer: So that the animal doesn't even know what's happening. It's also a practical choice. A puny human has not much to defend themselves against a large bull or hog thrashing around in its death throes. So practicality and morality combine to serve one purpose, the quickest, easiest possible death for the animal.

    Much the same as most hunters choose the best shot. One moment the animal is going about its animal business, the next instant it's not doing anything at all.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    I doubt a Saw versión on defenceless animals could be acclaimed by audience.
    What does a defenseless animal look like?
    I think you've spent zero time outside of the city.

    Buddy, trust me, most life on this planet is far from defenseless.
    In fact, life on this planet is so vicious, there is no perfect defense.

    Even single celled organisms can kill you. A brain eating amoeba or common Escherichia coli.

    Fangs, Claws, spikes, venom, bacterial toxicity in bites, traps and the like all are a part of nature. No really, you live in a good area for some exploration. South America, right? How long do you think you'd last in the wildness.

    Out there- YOU are the defenseless animal.
    Last edited by Neverfly; May 23rd, 2013 at 09:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    And I just noticed I didn't attempt to offer an answer to the OP question as to whether or not war was part of human nature. I think it is. War is simply an intensity level of conflict. I think all animals engage in it as a necessity to survival. Especially in communal life forms such as bees, ants, wolves, dolphins and chimpanzees.
    Humans exterminates pests for survival, but the complete annihilation of other humans can be classified as for survival? Should not first be exhausted all the possible diplomatic ways?
    No species, plant or animal, can live without conflicting with the existence of some other species. Life maintains its existence by consuming life
    Conflicting vs. Equilibrium of the Ecosystem. Are you a primatologist? An etologist? great!, you can end the controversy. Can you quote a link on these intriguing phenomena?
    There have been plenty of links so far providing evidence to what I and others have stated here. What evidence have you provided? Silly me I only used two areas of science to back up my claims, what was I thinking?

    There have been experiments done. People who try to exist without consuming the life of some other organism die of starvation. If you don't believe me, try it. I would love to see what conclusions you reach if you go a month without eating anything that was ever alive. And vegetables are living things too so you can't eat them either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    They are insects
    So your distaste for killing and reverence for life only extends to those warm furry things?
    Some investigators thinks bees possees a language, in the entire sense of the word. I'm not a preacher. You could ask the exact opposite question: hiper-omnivorism: there is an ethical problem with eat all breedable specie (primates, keas, squirrels...), fetus (consented by an odd woman), puppies, kitties, every pet, and every wild bird and insect that we have chance to devour?
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    So, give most any kid some animal crackers. (Cookies, actually...)

    The average kid first bites the head off after examining each animal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    They are insects
    So your distaste for killing and reverence for life only extends to those warm furry things?
    Some investigators thinks bees possees a language, in the entire sense of the word. I'm not a preacher. You could ask the exact opposite question: hiper-omnivorism: there is an ethical problem with eat all breedable specie (primates, keas, squirrels...), fetus (consented by an odd woman), puppies, kitties, every pet, and every wild bird and insect that we have chance to devour?
    Do you know anyone, have you ever heard of anyone or anything, that eats EVERYTHING it can get an opportunity to eat? I am not aware of any organism like that other than bacteria. Can you give us any examples?
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Do you know anyone, have you ever heard of anyone or anything, that eats EVERYTHING it can get an opportunity to eat? I am not aware of any organism like that other than bacteria. Can you give us any examples?
    in theory it could exist any excentric stockbreeders who raises every possible animal & insect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Do you know anyone, have you ever heard of anyone or anything, that eats EVERYTHING it can get an opportunity to eat? I am not aware of any organism like that other than bacteria. Can you give us any examples?
    in theory it could exist any excentric stockbreeders who raises every possible animal & insect.
    In theory?

    You mean in fantasy. Have you any idea how many species exist that we simply can't even get direct access to, let alone breed. We can't even manage to breed pandas in captivity with any significant success. That's why they are dying out in spite of being a protected species.

    Talk about reaching out to extreme hypothesis to attempt to push the idea that eating a decapitated animal is wrong. What difference would it make if anyone could do what you suggest? Your argument is against the idea of an animal being decapitated, then ingested. What difference does it make what species animal it is?

    How bout you try to stay on topic of the thread YOU created. Stop moving the goal posts here.

    As I said, If YOU do not like the idea of decapitating and animal, then don't do it. If YOU do not feel good about eating animals of any kind, then don't do it. But do not attempt to prove that your personal distaste for something that is completely natural among primates(which humans are), which are omnivores, suddenly ethically or morally wrong just because YOU don't like it.
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    Well....it's Memorial Day here in States...so I'm going to go celebrate men killing other men by grilling some delicious steaks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    As I said, If YOU do not like the idea of decapitating and animal, then don't do it. If YOU do not feel good about eating animals of any kind, then don't do it. But do not attempt to prove that your personal distaste for something that is completely natural among primates(which humans are), which are omnivores, suddenly ethically or morally wrong just because YOU don't like it.
    Adorable, i have no reason for try to convert you into vegetalists. Albert Eintein quote: "Although I have been prevented by outward circumstances from observing a strictly vegetarian diet, I have long been an adherent to the cause in principle. Besides agreeing with the aims of vegetarianism for aesthetic and moral reasons, it is my view that a vegetarian manner of living by its purely physical effect on the human temperament would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind." Stanford Encyclopedia of philosophy:The Moral Status of Animals (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    But do not attempt to prove that your personal distaste for something that is completely natural among primates(which humans are), which are omnivores
    I explored beyondveg.com and found nothing on chimpanzee omnivorism. Please i beg you show a reliable link on it here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    As I said, If YOU do not like the idea of decapitating and animal, then don't do it. If YOU do not feel good about eating animals of any kind, then don't do it. But do not attempt to prove that your personal distaste for something that is completely natural among primates(which humans are), which are omnivores, suddenly ethically or morally wrong just because YOU don't like it.
    Adorable, i have no reason for try to convert you into vegetalists. Albert Eintein quote: "Although I have been prevented by outward circumstances from observing a strictly vegetarian diet, I have long been an adherent to the cause in principle. Besides agreeing with the aims of vegetarianism for aesthetic and moral reasons, it is my view that a vegetarian manner of living by its purely physical effect on the human temperament would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind." Stanford Encyclopedia of philosophy:The Moral Status of Animals (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
    That is still an opinion. And even though Einstein may have been a genius when it came to physics it hardly implies that he is qualified to make blanket statements about human biology and diet. He didn't know EVERYthing.

    Btw, I checked your link and there is NO mention of Albert Einstein in that article.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    But do not attempt to prove that your personal distaste for something that is completely natural among primates(which humans are), which are omnivores
    I explored beyondveg.com and found nothing on chimpanzee omnivorism. Please i beg you show a reliable link on it here.
    maybe you should stop searching biased web sites and start looking at science based web sites.

    This will give you a start.
    Various mammals are omnivorous in the wild, such as the Hominidae, pigs,[10] badgers, bears, coatis, hedgehogs, opossums, skunks, sloths, squirrels,[11] raccoons, chipmunks,[12] mice,[13] and rats.[14] Various birds are omnivorous, with diets varying from berries and nectar to insects, worms, fish, and small rodents. Examples include cassowarys, chickens, crows[15] and related corvids, keas, rallidae, and rheas. In addition, some lizards, turtles, fish, such as piranhas and catfish, and invertebrates are also omnivorous.
    from:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore

    It mentions that Hominidae are omnivorous.

    The chimpanzee
    is an omnivorous frugivore. It prefers fruit above all other food items and will even seek out and eat them when they are not abundant. It will also eat leaves and leaf buds. Seeds, blossoms, stems, pith, bark and resin, insects and meat make up the rest of its diet.[19][27] While the common chimpanzee is mostly herbivorous, it does eat honey, soil, insects, birds and their eggs, and small to medium-sized mammals, including other primates
    Last edited by seagypsy; May 27th, 2013 at 05:20 PM.
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    Chimps eat ants and termites.

    They have also been known to practice cannibalism.

    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
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    Bezoar, attempting to give you the benefit of the doubt, I researched that quote you attributed to Albert Einstein and I could not find a single reliable unbiased source confirming with certainty that Einstein actually said that. It is claimed to have been stated in a letter written to Hermann Huth in Dec 1930, which was supposedly published in a German Provegetarian magazine which existed from 1882 to 1935. I'm guessing it is a myth promoted by provegetarian organizations in order to persuade people to convert with fallacious appeals to authority.

    I can't find any information on any Hermann (or Harmann) Huth that Einstein may have been corresponding with during that time period. So who is this mystery person? Probably no one of any importance if I can't find any info on anyone during that name during that time period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    But do not attempt to prove that your personal distaste for something that is completely natural among primates(which humans are), which are omnivores
    I explored beyondveg.com and found nothing on chimpanzee omnivorism. Please i beg you show a reliable link on it here.
    Here's an article on chimp meat eating.
    The Predatory Behavior and Ecology of Wild Chimpanzees
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Btw, I checked your link and there is NO mention of Albert Einstein in that article.
    Einstein veg quotes are wellknown. The article focuses on animal cognition, and the ethic problem of exploit animals as raw material. You don't see a philosophycal dilema neither a psychological dilema. What our minds posses that animals we eat don't reduce them to a cathegory of objects? If they are not just objects, if they understand the human language, how to define their minds? are they conscious?. Could they be considered coworkers or just 'robotic' organisms?: dogs that help detectives, dogs for blind men, dogs which carry baskets to buy requests, chimps in language research, horses as therapy for disabled, etc. If my loved old dog is sick and i decide to bloodily torture him 'til death in an acoustic isolated room, am i commiting a moral fault?
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    It does not matter much if Einstein said it or not, to be blunt- as it's simply an appeal to authority fallacy.

    Just because Einstein may have (or may not have) said something does not 'prove' it valid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I can't find any information on any Hermann (or Harmann) Huth that Einstein may have been corresponding with during that time period. So who is this mystery person? Probably no one of any importance if I can't find any info on anyone during that name during that time period.
    I'm sorry. Is surely a myth. I initially found a similar false quote of Einstein in a site about the Pytagorean Diet. The Pythagoreans (Pythagoreanism was the system of esoteric and metaphysical beliefs held by Pythagoras and his followers) were well known in antiquity for their vegetarianism, which they practised for religious, ethical and ascetic reasons: Pythagoreanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Btw, I checked your link and there is NO mention of Albert Einstein in that article.
    Einstein veg quotes are wellknown. The article focuses on animal cognition, and the ethic problem of exploit animals as raw material. You don't see a philosophycal dilema neither a psychological dilema. What our minds posses that animals we eat don't reduce them to a cathegory of objects? If they are not just objects, if they understand the human language, how to define their minds? are they conscious?. Could they be considered coworkers or just 'robotic' organisms?: dogs that help detectives, dogs for blind men, dogs which carry baskets to buy requests, chimps in language research, horses as therapy for disabled, etc. If my loved old dog is sick and i decide to bloodily torture him 'til death in an acoustic isolated room, am i commiting a moral fault?
    It doesn't matter what the article said if it did not say what you quoted it as saying. Whether by accident or intent, you presented something that appears very deceptive, however you have since acknowledged that the quote was a myth, and believe it or not I have been diligently trying to find out if there is any reliable source stating that he said anything remotely close or that he was ever a vegetarian and the only original source I can find is a person declared by another vegetarian group, to be an Einstein expert who used to work as an editor for Princeton University Press. However the quotes published by that expert are very vague. While I'd like to think we can trust the folks at Princeton University Press to be honest, I still can't actually find proof that the lady ever really did work for Princeton University Press.


    And no i do not see a moral, philosophical or psychological dilema in eating animals, especially when they engage in the same behavior. This is an 'eat or be eaten world'.


    At least most humans are kind enough to kill their food before eating it. Many animals do not.

    I already stated earlier in the thread that I am against unnecessarily harming animals in any way. I don't think any animal should be killed unless you intend to eat it, or it intends to eat you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    But do not attempt to prove that your personal distaste for something that is completely natural among primates(which humans are), which are omnivores
    I explored beyondveg.com and found nothing on chimpanzee omnivorism. Please i beg you show a reliable link on it here.
    Here's an article on chimp meat eating.
    The Predatory Behavior and Ecology of Wild Chimpanzees
    Thanks. it says: chimpanzees are largely fruit eaters, and meat composes only about 3% of the time they spent eating overall, less than in nearly all human societies. The article don't mention that the meat comsumption of vertebrates is not dued to lack of food as consequence of human deforestation of their hábitats.
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    i knew chimps eat termites and ocassionally monkeys. However, have no idea how their teeth could tear and chew the raw body of another monkey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    But do not attempt to prove that your personal distaste for something that is completely natural among primates(which humans are), which are omnivores
    I explored beyondveg.com and found nothing on chimpanzee omnivorism. Please i beg you show a reliable link on it here.
    Here's an article on chimp meat eating.
    The Predatory Behavior and Ecology of Wild Chimpanzees
    Thanks. it says: chimpanzees are largely fruit eaters, and meat composes only about 3% of the time they spent eating overall, less than in nearly all human societies. The article don't mention that the meat comsumption of vertebrates is not dued to lack of food as consequence of human deforestation of their hábitats.
    why would it say that? Especially since vertebrates include animals like lions and tigers and bears, oh my. They eat meat almost exclusively and not due to deforestation by humans. Also marine mammals are vertebrates that eat almost exclusively meat. If they eat kelp it is probably by accident. I think you may have made a mistake in your sentence by the way. Because you negated your entire case with that statement that I have bolded for you.

    from Harold's link
    One of the main recent findings about hunting by chimpanzees was its seasonality (Stanford et al. 1994a). At Gombe, nearly 40 % of the kills of colobus monkeys occur in the dry season months of August and September. This is apparently a time of food shortage in the forest, since the chimpanzees' body weights do decline (Wrangham 1975).
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    i knew chimps eat termites and ocassionally monkeys. However, have no idea how their teeth could tear and chew the raw body of another monkey.
    You knew chimps at least occasionally ate monkeys but had no idea their teeth could tear and chew the raw bodies of one? How did you think they ate them? Did you assume they swallowed them whole? Did you think they took them down to the local butcher stand and had them ground into monkey burgers?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    I explored beyondveg.com and found nothing on chimpanzee omnivorism. Please i beg you show a reliable link on it here.
    i knew chimps eat termites and ocassionally monkeys.


    If you knew that, why are you asking for a link on chimp omnivorism?

    There's more than a little
    disingenuousness in your posts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    i knew chimps eat termites and ocassionally monkeys. However, have no idea how their teeth could tear and chew the raw body of another monkey.
    You knew chimps at least occasionally ate monkeys but had no idea their teeth could tear and chew the raw bodies of one? How did you think they ate them? Did you assume they swallowed them whole? Did you think they took them down to the local butcher stand and had them ground into monkey burgers?
    Knives and forks as any civilized chimpanzee would do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Oh my god. this is low standards. Are you joking? ha ha ha. They are insects, are extremely far from our filogenetics
    Komodo dragons are reptiles not mammals, but have you seen how they kill their prey. They just bite it and inject venom. They follow it around, harass it and bother it - for days - it until it staggers and falls. Then they rip into it. Humans killing animals, even with clumsy rocks, spears, arrows or blunted knives that rarely kill instantly, can never manage this level of prolonging a painful death.

    And then there are all the others - birds and mammals as well as parasitic insects - that start eating prey before it has died.

    By the standards of all living things that must eat other living things to live, we're pretty fair average quality. And a lot "better" than many others.
    Not to mention Orca's who toy with baby seals and toss them around and play with them before slowly teaching their young how to kill said seal.

    I would imagine the OP has never watched a David Attenborough documentary. I envisage curled up in a ball in the corner with some rocking back and forth.



    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly
    You're stupid.
    While you and I disagree on some things, this.. Brilliant Sir. Well played. And I think you may be my first ever 'liked' on this site.



    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar
    Search: pytagoras - vegetarianism. Vegetarianism is maybe more old than the indu civilization.
    \
    I think you will find that on the scale of human evolution and development, the Indu Civilisation is deemed relatively new.

    Ok, but everybody forgot to discuss in deep the the issue of decapitation.
    Why would we want to go in depth about discussing decapitation?

    Or is that what bothers you with the killings of animals.

    Perhaps you are a vegetarian, frankly, I stopped skimming your posts indepth after you asked about dog telepathy (tears of laughter may explain that), but decapitation is a method of killing and often used for the preparation of meat (to clean and/or skin the animal for example). If it disgusts you, then don't eat meat. We live in an age where vegetarians have wonderful options for their diet.

    When I eat a steak, I don't sit there and ponder about how that particular bovine was decapitated. Perhaps I am strange that way, but I don't. I eat my steak because meat is a fundamental part of my diet and a necessary one. I don't force people to eat it if they do not want to for whatever reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Thanks. it says: chimpanzees are largely fruit eaters, and meat composes only about 3% of the time they spent eating overall, less than in nearly all human societies. The article don't mention that the meat comsumption of vertebrates is not dued to lack of food as consequence of human deforestation of their hábitats.
    why would it say that? Especially since vertebrates include animals like lions and tigers and bears, oh my.
    Lions? these chimps use arrows? That information is new for me. You find reliable information easily, i find it dificult.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    I stopped skimming your posts indepth after you asked about dog telepathy (tears of laughter may explain that)
    I've read some threads on telepathy in the parapsychology section. I saw a documentary of Alejandro Parra. Saw in tv the experiment of the dog shaking his tail, and walking in circles at the moments his owner was thinking in take the dog for a walk. 2 videocameras recorded both events. Why i am an idiot? Can you prove all experimets of this type are frauds?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Thanks. it says: chimpanzees are largely fruit eaters, and meat composes only about 3% of the time they spent eating overall, less than in nearly all human societies. The article don't mention that the meat comsumption of vertebrates is not dued to lack of food as consequence of human deforestation of their hábitats.
    why would it say that? Especially since vertebrates include animals like lions and tigers and bears, oh my.
    Lions? these chimps use arrows? That information is new for me. You find reliable information easily, i find it dificult.
    Actually what they found was that chimpanzees hunted in packs, with each chimpanzee in the hunting party cooperating in killing the monkeys.

    And while they are predominantly fruit eaters, the consumption of smaller prey is an essential part of their diet and social structure. In fact, there is some evidence that the hunts and the distribution of meat afterwards is also part of the chimpanzee's political affiliations within the pack. For example, the alpha males have been observed distributing the meat to allies while withholding the meat from rivals.

    But you need to understand one thing. They don't just hunt and kill one or two monkeys. They hunt consistently for months on end, during particular seasons of the year, when other food is scarce.

    You also need to realise that they do not just eat the smaller monkeys, but also other species as well:

    Although only three percent of their feeding time is dedicated to eating meat, a chimpanzee community may kill more than 150 animals in a single year. Wrangham and Emily van Zinnicq Bergmann-Riss have noted that chimpanzees prey on more than 25 species of vertebrates at Gombe, including monkeys, wild pigs and small antelopes.
    And while meat forms a smaller part of their diet, in some countries in Africa, chimpanzees have hunted the red colobus monkeys into near extinction.

    They hunt with great skill. They don't need arrows. So perhaps you should not attribute your human feelings and beliefs to chimpanzees.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    I stopped skimming your posts indepth after you asked about dog telepathy (tears of laughter may explain that)
    I've read some threads on telepathy in the parapsychology section. I saw a documentary of Alejandro Parra. Saw in tv the experiment of the dog shaking his tail, and walking in circles at the moments his owner was thinking in take the dog for a walk. 2 videocameras recorded both events. Why i am an idiot? Can you prove all experimets of this type are frauds?
    It is actually not telepathy but probably the dog recognising cues and understanding what the owner was going to do.

    Dogs are trained to recognise cues from humans and especially their owners. It is why dogs make such amazing companion pets for those who suffer from disorders such as severe epilepsy and other forms of disorders which renders the owner immobile or ill for periods of time (ie they have fits). It isn't telepathy, but they are trained to recognise these cues from their owner - could be anything from the owner's breath smelling a certain way to the dog's delicate nose to something else that is not noticed or seen by others, but will be observed by a dog that is trained to identify it early.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Thanks. it says: chimpanzees are largely fruit eaters, and meat composes only about 3% of the time they spent eating overall, less than in nearly all human societies. The article don't mention that the meat comsumption of vertebrates is not dued to lack of food as consequence of human deforestation of their hábitats.
    why would it say that? Especially since vertebrates include animals like lions and tigers and bears, oh my.
    Lions? these chimps use arrows? That information is new for me. You find reliable information easily, i find it dificult.
    Lions are not chimps. But lions and chimps both belong to the vertebrate class of animals, meaning they have back bones and spinal cords.

    Who said anything about arrows? Your OP shows angst about eating meat, especially decapitating the animal first. Stop putting words in people's mouths and stop moving the goal posts. Stay on topic. Whether they use arrows or not doesn't matter. They eat meat. They kill other animals and eat them. Even the kea which you are so appalled at the idea of eating. You have been insisting that it is morally wrong to eat meat and even attempted to claim that animals don't do it.

    You are simply being a troll at this point, but your display or ignorance in this thread indicates that you are either trolling or extremely stupid. You tell us which it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    I stopped skimming your posts indepth after you asked about dog telepathy (tears of laughter may explain that)
    I've read some threads on telepathy in the parapsychology section. I saw a documentary of Alejandro Parra. Saw in tv the experiment of the dog shaking his tail, and walking in circles at the moments his owner was thinking in take the dog for a walk. 2 videocameras recorded both events. Why i am an idiot? Can you prove all experimets of this type are frauds?
    Tip for you, if the prefix "para" is at the beginning of a scientific term it means "not" and/or "stupid".... so parapsychology means "not psychology" . para is almost synonymous with pseudo. so pseudoscience is not science.

    And when one of these prefixes is used in front of a known branch of science it forces the definition of the word to mean, An idiotic non supported superstitious distortion of reality. And therefore it has no merit in scientific discussion.

    The "experiment" you saw was simply a misrepresentation of reality either by people who were stupid enough to believe what they were saying or by people who are out to intentionally mislead people about science.

    The owner probably had a routine of taking the dog out for a walk every day about the same time. The dog is trained and has a rough understanding and ability to perceive passage of time. The dog felt it was probably time and the owner probably did too and so the dog was anticipating something that had become routine.

    I anticipate that the sun will come up each day. Does this make me psychic since so far it has actually come up every day since the day i was born? No. It means I can observe a pattern and based on the pattern anticipate that the pattern will continue.

    For instance, I anticipate that you will respond with something as deeply stupid as every other post you have made in this thread. I am not psychic, I just see the pattern and anticipate the pattern will not change.
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    Surely god is Ok with eating animals. That is why he created lions, didn't he? The early humans used to eat all sorts of flesh, even men. They used to hunt all sort of animals because farming was not yet invented back then. Since those days we have come a long way. Don't you think that if god was not Ok with those pracises then he would have destroyed human race a long time ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumaMan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Inwhich ocean regions the survivors will be devoured by sharks? Can you imaginesomething more terrific?
    Sure: getting stuck in a combine or gettingyour balls ripped off by a laplander.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    You're stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    WellI'm done here. I have been pleasant andnice to the guy. Just don't try to force your vegetarian ideals down our throats

    [QUOTE=AlexG;426364]
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    i knew chimps eattermites and ocassionally monkeys.

    If you knew that, why are you asking for a link on chimp omnivorism?
    There's more than a little
    disingenuousness inyour posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly
    You're stupid.
    While you and I disagree on some things, this.. Brilliant Sir. Well played. And I think you may be my first ever'liked' on this site.

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    For instance, I anticipate that you will respond with something as deeply stupid as every other post youhave made in this thread. I am not psychic, I just see the pattern andanticipate the pattern will not change.
    14 members likes this thread. 14 bulliers?...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    14 members likes this thread. 14 bulliers?...
    NO, 14 people did not like your thread. 14 likes were issued to various posts within this thread. Your thread sucks. check it's rating.

    Last edited by seagypsy; May 30th, 2013 at 06:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Have you never seen a cat "toying" with a mouse before the kill? If that's not "sadism" I don't know what is...
    I had a cat that used to swat flies in the air and do something to them so that their nervous systems somehow became damaged and they would fly around in circles continuously like they were having bizarre fly-seizures. He wouldn't kill them, so I would have to step in and kill them myself because I felt sorry for them. Cat appeared to be having lots of fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    [

    It is actually not telepathy but probably the dog recognising cues and understanding what the owner was going to do.

    Dogs are trained to recognise cues from humans and especially their owners. It is why dogs make such amazing companion pets for those who suffer from disorders such as severe epilepsy and other forms of disorders which renders the owner immobile or ill for periods of time (ie they have fits). It isn't telepathy, but they are trained to recognise these cues from their owner - could be anything from the owner's breath smelling a certain way to the dog's delicate nose to something else that is not noticed or seen by others, but will be observed by a dog that is trained to identify it early.
    Maybe 10,000 + years of domestication also had something to do with it.
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    If I had had the option to born in a world where no form of violence exist (or minimum): plots, machinations, war, sexism, homophobia, i was born there.

    Does the violence is inherent to humans and ineradicable? Is it a necessary evil? Some guys say that WW2 catapulted technological development. Would we wish another?

    Imagine 10 children and 10 adults surrounding a show of decapitation of a rabbit. How many will feel repulsion to see that?

    Imagine the same, but now with the case of the decapitation of a neighborhood cat .. not that is a psychological reaction? We could educate ourselves to suprime that reactions?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm not a vegan fanatic, I am just intrigued to understand the vegetarian phenomenon from the scientific perspective.
    From the nutritional point of view, does the meat can be replaced by some combination of varied vegetables? Spirulina is bioavailable enought?

    Does exist a serious link about it? Could cite it please?
    If not, why the term vegetarianism appears in my two medical dictionaries (Dorland 26 edition)? Does that term should not disappear from our language?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    If I had had the option to born in a world where no form of violence exist (or minimum): plots, machinations, war, sexism, homophobia, i was born there.

    Does the violence is inherent to humans and ineradicable? Is it a necessary evil? Some guys say that WW2 catapulted technological development. Would we wish another?

    Imagine 10 children and 10 adults surrounding a show of decapitation of a rabbit. How many will feel repulsion to see that?

    Imagine the same, but now with the case of the decapitation of a neighborhood cat .. not that is a psychological reaction? We could educate ourselves to suprime that reactions?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm not a vegan fanatic, I am just intrigued to understand the vegetarian phenomenon from the scientific perspective.
    From the nutritional point of view, does the meat can be replaced by some combination of varied vegetables? Spirulina is bioavailable enought?

    Does exist a serious link about it? Could cite it please?
    If not, why the term vegetarianism appears in my two medical dictionaries (Dorland 26 edition)? Does that term should not disappear from our language?
    The very process by which you are born (birth, just ask your mom if having you was gentle and sweet), and continue to exist is violent, (consuming food by tearing it apart in your mouth and then burning calories is violent). So yes violence is necessary for life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    The very process by which you are born (birth, just ask your mom if having you was gentle and sweet), and continue to exist is violent, (consuming food by tearing it apart in your mouth and then burning calories is violent). So yes violence is necessary for life.
    This is irrelevant and not the point. Does you belong to the meat industry? Everybody here have phobia to discuss the vegetarian hipothesis. It is obvious life implies a tolerable level of pain,
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    Steak, medium rare, mushroom duxelle, carmelized onions, baked potato.

    A good omnivoric meal.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    When i think in decapitate a rabbit, a pig, a deer i experience the sensations of decapitate myself. Feel i am bleeding the pure love i perceive in that animal brain . Specially when imagine a rabbit. Then each time i eat meat feel as a cannibal, a degenerated person. Does God Allow the Hunting and Killing of Animals? When i consider science is far to understand animal intelligence (kea, dolphin,...) and the fact that they constitute an important part of the economic system (detective dogs, dogs for blind men, newspaper dogs, horses as therapy for disabled, etc) my guilt worse. The Psychology of Killing and the Origins of War | smellslikescience.com Do you think the war is a natural human tendence?

    I also feel slightly guilty at the idea of eating meat, not that it stops me from doing so I might add, I don't like the idea of something else having to suffer so as that I maybe fed. What I think though when it comes down to food we all have an overwhelming desire to survive and this desire is stronger than any moral conerns way may experience. For survival we each require food and thus this has allowed us to develop a different view towards animals that we may see as food and one we do not. How many of us might think it's ok for an aminal to be slaughted just because we felt like it? Not many I'm guessing here, but if change that around and say how many people think it's ok to slaughter an animal to feed a hungry person then probarbly quite alot would agree.

    I guess the point is here morality is a luxury that we can have time and the chance to consider if our basic needs are already met, when it comes to animals we as a species do care about them, but put quite simply we always put ourselves first.

    Again it's only really the fact that most of us arn't directly having to compete in the food chain that we can really stop and take stock of the suffering caused to animals, because if for example we didn't have all our shops and technology ect...and had to go out everyday and catch our own food then I think all concerns about cruality would rapidly go out of the window.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    If I had had the option to born in a world where no form of violence exist (or minimum): plots, machinations, war, sexism, homophobia, i was born there.
    You mean Utopia?

    Does the violence is inherent to humans and ineradicable? Is it a necessary evil? Some guys say that WW2 catapulted technological development. Would we wish another?
    War hastens technological advancement. It does not mean that we need war for society to advance on a technological or industrial level. Without war, we would just arrive there a little bit slower, perhaps.

    Human nature dictates that some will have violent tendencies, even at a minimum. You only have to watch a parent defend their child from harm or death to witness just what some people are capable of. We are, like most other animals on this planet, very capable of violence if it means we are protecting what is near and dear to us, be it our plot of land or loved one's.

    Imagine 10 children and 10 adults surrounding a show of decapitation of a rabbit. How many will feel repulsion to see that?
    I would say most would feel a sense of revulsion on some level. But after you have witnessed animals being slaughtered for human consumption in such a fashion, that repulsion is replaced with an understanding that sometimes, said rabbit is necessary for one's surival.

    If you look at the image of a starving child in Africa, do you feel revulsion? Do you think they would be repulsed if they witnessed a rabbit being slaughtered, knowing that rabbit would be cooked to feed them in their starving state?

    Imagine the same, but now with the case of the decapitation of a neighborhood cat .. not that is a psychological reaction? We could educate ourselves to suprime that reactions?
    Because people often gather around to watch the local neighbourhood cat be decapitated?


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm not a vegan fanatic, I am just intrigued to understand the vegetarian phenomenon from the scientific perspective.
    From the nutritional point of view, does the meat can be replaced by some combination of varied vegetables? Spirulina is bioavailable enought?
    Beef, as one example, is the best source of vitamin B12. I can eat over a bucket of spinach to get the same levels of iron as a very small steak. Hmm.. Decisions decisions..

    Alternatively we can ignore a good and healthy varied diet and become pill poppers to try and meet up with the nutritional demands of our bodies.

    Does exist a serious link about it? Could cite it please?
    If not, why the term vegetarianism appears in my two medical dictionaries (Dorland 26 edition)? Does that term should not disappear from our language?
    I have no idea what you are on about here.
    Last edited by Tranquille; June 6th, 2013 at 06:50 PM. Reason: meat vs meet.. meet won
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    When my mother was growing up, her mother used to purchase live chickens and wring their necks herself at the farm. She also used to buy live fish and let them swim in her bathtub until she was ready to kill them. That was how things were done in those days. My grandfather was a kosher butcher and I live not far from a lot of farms.

    Considering that most of the people in the world do eat meat when they can get it, and many people do not have access to supermarkets and processed food or vitamin and mineral supplements to complement a vegan or vegetarian diet, I think people have the ability to get over any repulsion to animal slaughter pretty quickly. I think most people eat what they can get. The ability to choose what you will or won't eat because of ethical beliefs is a luxury.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Bing View Post
    The ability to choose what you will or won't eat because of ethical beliefs is a luxury.
    This!

    Vegetarianism and those who are vegan do so because they have the ability to follow such diets safely.

    But it is not for everyone. If someone does not have the financial means to become a vegetarian or vegan, then they should and need to consider eating meat. It is a lifestyle and moral choice. However if done incorrectly, it can be very dangerous. In some parts of the world, people are unable to access the variety of vegetables, grain, nuts, etc, to ensure a well balanced diet that can exclude meat or animal products. It would be detrimental to their health to become vegetarians and exclude the beneficial vitamins and proteins they would get if they consumed meat.

    There are health benefits and dangers in all forms of our diet. However to demand or advocate vegetarianism because we should be repulsed by the decapitation of animals is a solely a moral choice. Not everyone has that luxury.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Bing View Post
    I think people have the ability to get over any repulsion to animal slaughter pretty quickly. I think most people eat what they can get. The ability to choose what you will or won't eat because of ethical beliefs is a luxury.
    A luxury? not for the americans, lets talk on nutrition. Paul McCartney's "Glass Walls" - Official Video - YouTube How we know ''Josef Mengele''- like (frankenstenian) practices don't happens inside Meat Factories?
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    In some mild fairness, consider the region where Bezoar lives...
    "American" is a broad term and a Brazilian is an "American" as they live in the Americas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Bing View Post
    I think people have the ability to get over any repulsion to animal slaughter pretty quickly. I think most people eat what they can get. The ability to choose what you will or won't eat because of ethical beliefs is a luxury.
    A luxury? not for the americans, lets talk on nutrition. Paul McCartney's "Glass Walls" - Official Video - YouTube How we know ''Josef Mengele''- like (frankenstenian) practices don't happens inside Meat Factories?
    Good point. I guess the only way you can be sure that animals are not being tortured in slaughter houses is to kill your own food so that you can be sure it is done as humanely as possible. I'm all for that. Unfortunately, I can't buy a gun so hunting is out of the question for me. And the chances of me surviving a knife fight against an animal with horns and hooves is pretty slim, and I'm just not quick enough to catch the smaller wild game.

    But as you say, slaughter houses can often have unethical practices taking place. Maybe slaughter houses should be illegal and if people want to eat meat they should have to kill it themselves. Force people to face the horrors of having to kill to survive rather than having others do it for them. I'm starting to understand your point. If people aren't willing to kill, they simply shouldn't be allowed to have meat for food.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    A luxury? not for the americans, lets talk on nutrition. Paul McCartney's "Glass Walls" - Official Video - YouTube How we know ''Josef Mengele''- like (frankenstenian) practices don't happens inside Meat Factories?
    Ah Paul McCartney and PETA..

    It's like all my Christmases have come at once.

    I wonder, why didn't he address PETA's slaughter house of cats and dogs?

    People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) is an organization that publicly claims to represent the best interest of animals -- indeed their "ethical treatment." Yet approximately 2,000 animals pass through PETA's front door every year and very few make it out alive. The vast majority -- 96 percent in 2011 -- exit the facility out the back door after they have been killed, when Pet Cremation Services of Tidewater stops by on their regular visits to pick up their remains. Between these visits, the bodies are stored in the giant walk-in freezer PETA installed for this very purpose. It is a freezer that cost $9,370 and, like the company which incinerates the bodies of PETA's victims, was paid for with the donations of animal lovers who could never have imagined that the money they donated to help animals would be used to end their lives instead. In fact, in the last 11 years, PETA has killed 29,426 dogs, cats, rabbits, and other domestic animals.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    An Ahoskie Police Detective dressed in a hazmat suit prepares to bury a puppy killed by PETA. This puppy and dozens of other animals including cats and kittens were found by police throughout June of 2005 after PETA employees dumped them in a garbage bin in North Carolina.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    Puppies killed by PETA in the back of a van -- a donor-funded slaughterhouse on wheels. Despite $35,000,000 in annual revenues and millions of "animal-loving" members, PETA does not even try to find them homes. PETA has no adoption hours, does no adoption promotion, has no adoption floor, but is registered with the State of Virginia as a "humane society" or "animal shelter."


    (Warning, graphic images of dead puppies and kittens killed by PETA in the article)
    So you want to discuss the practices of some slaughter houses that are tightly regulated and any that do torture animals are shut down? How about we can start with PETA first and their slaughter of pets that they are supposed to be sheltering and trying to get into a good home and instead of doing that, they just kill them, usually in the back of their vans?

    One vet found out that the cat and its two kittens he had given to them in the hope of finding them a good home were all slaughtered before they even left the car park.

    Are there slaughter houses that do not treat animals humanely? Yes. And once they are found out, and they are usually discovered, they are shut down, fined and prosecuted.

    Now, let us talk about nutrition in the US.

    It is not always easy to have access to fresh vegetables, for example. In some areas in the US, there is no access to fresh food at all. And those areas are usually inhabited by people on the very low income scale. So one would have to say that going vegetarian is not exactly possible, because to go vegetarian, you need to have access to a wide array of fresh vegetables, fruit, legumes, grain and vegetable proteins to ensure a healthy diet. So what are these people supposed to do?

    Vegetarianism is a luxury and only those who live in areas where they have access to fresh food and health care that will allow them to remain healthy in their diet are able to consider becoming vegetarian. Not everyone has that luxury.
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  92. #91  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    I wonder if abattoir workers are susceptible to or have been diagnosed with PTSD or a similar malady? I've not heard of any. I take that back.Can't remember if I've ever seen an incident of a slaughterhouse employee terrorizing the neighborhood. Not sure if that means the killing of defenceless animals is innately acceptable or programmed into our psyche if only for survival purposes. It's as natural as gathering edible plant material. Doesn't mean we all could kill our animal food. It's not for the squeamish.
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; June 8th, 2013 at 08:44 AM. Reason: I stand corrected
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  93. #92  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Reminds me of the old joke:
    Patent: Doctor, it hurts when I do this.
    Doctor: Well stop doing it then.

    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Then each time i eat meat feel as a cannibal, a degenerated person.
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    I can't decapitate any chicken or rabbit without feel horror.
    Well, stop doing it then.
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    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  94. #93  
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    help me unsubscribe please. My email is blocked, completely useless.
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  95. #94  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    go to settings. click "subscribed threads", check all the boxes, and then select the option that gives you no updates.
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    I suppose if we all had the ability to become carrion eaters then there wouldn't really be any need for ethical debates. But since we arn't then I guess we can put that down nature, and it seems that if we need to have the ethical debate and attribute blame for killing animals for food then why indeed shouldn't we place this blame at natures doorstep. Since afterall it wasn't us as a species that had any say or choice over the fact that eating meat keeps healthy, so why should we shoulder blame for something we couldn't help, control or decide upon.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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    The slaughter mechanized and the product wrapped in cellophane at Wal-Mart...

    Humans ARE carrion eaters.
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  98. #97  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Humans ARE carrion eaters.
    Oh yeah, speak for yourself, when was the last time you saw carrion for sale in a supermarket?

    I wouldn't want to eat it.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh yeah, speak for yourself, when was the last time you saw carrion for sale in a supermarket?
    Every time you walk through the meat isle.

    It's already dead for you. It IS carrion, we ARE scavengers, picking every last bit of meat off the bones with high pressure nozzles (Mechanically separated.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I wouldn't want to eat it.
    Me either. But since hunting is so tightly regulated, along with everything else and any range left to hunt on owned and charging out the yazoo... one has little choice but to be a slave to the machine and sacrifice freedom and natural hunting of prey for a full belly.

    But it's still carrion. Pumped up with shiny anti-biotics and preservatives. What do you think that rainbow-like sheen on the meat is? You don't see that on meat you hunted.
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    Ok then perhaps I was slightly mistaken, but the point I was trying make remains the same, if we waited for animals to die before eating them, rather than actually killing them, it would pretty much end the ethical debate. The problem though is who amongst wants to eat something that died from disease or old age? Yeah thanks again for that one nature!
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  101. #100  
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    Paul McCartney is one of the wealthiest men in the world and does not have the authority to dictate what the majority of people should or should not eat. Poor people (and there are plenty of poor people in the United States) often can't afford to eat healthy food, let alone food that makes them feel "ethically correct". Why do you think so many poor people are obese or have diabetes?

    I am a university-educated woman living in a western, first world country and any fruits and vegetables other than lettuce, tomatoes, canned peas, apple, pears or oranges take a big chunk out my budget. For the price of 100 grams of pistachio nuts or 3 bell peppers, I can buy 1/2 a kilogram of mincemeat. Which do you think I will choose when the rent is due?

    Then there is the issue of transportation. People may not be able to get the necessary variety of vegetabes, fruits and nuts in their local shops. Not everyone has access to public transport. Not everyone can afford to own a car. If they do own a car, fuel is expensive.

    As an aside, the reason that we don't eat dogs or cats is based not on the fact that they are cute, but that they help us obtain more food. Dogs were domesticated to help us hunt. Cats keep vermin out of grain stores. It is economically advantageous to let them live.
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