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Thread: Nakedness: Why are we ashamed of it? Is it valid for Christians to use it as evidence? Are tribal people ashamed?

  1. #1 Nakedness: Why are we ashamed of it? Is it valid for Christians to use it as evidence? Are tribal people ashamed? 
    Forum Ph.D.
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    Topic about nakedness/shame.
    Are tribal people shameful of nakedness?

    Or,
    Is the idea of shameful nakedness an idea programmed into our minds by the modern society?


    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    If thy right nipple offend thee, pluck it off! Goes for the other, too!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    if they Bible told people their elbows where shameful you would find people going to strip clubs full of naked people with just their elbows covered...
    i dont get what you mean. why would they cover their elbows in a strip club?


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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    If thy right nipple offend thee, pluck it off! Goes for the other, too!
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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    if they Bible told people their elbows where shameful you would find people going to strip clubs full of naked people with just their elbows covered...
    i dont get what you mean. why would they cover their elbows in a strip club?
    We cover up that which is taboo to show. The taboo is culturally determined. Therefore, if our culture considered elbows taboo, we would have to go to a nudie club to see naked elbows.
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  5. #4  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    why do women cover their breasts? because at some point in the past, someone decided it was shameful for a woman to walk around topless. And most probably it was a religious/political leader who was trying to control the sexual behaviors of those he lorded over.

    Taboos are meant to control people. In some societies the taboos are not associated with nakedness but whether or not a person has tattoos or branding marks. Or in some cases, foreskin on the penis.

    Shame is simply the fear of social rejection. In most social species, being rejected by the pack will almost certainly guarantee death, if not, it will at least severely reduce the opportunity to breed. Take any child that is abandoned or neglected for many years to the point of being feral (wild) and you will see a child without shame. A child that has already been rejected by its peers loses its sense of shame when it learns to survive without the pack. And in some cases can become a threat to the pack. More often than not, serial killers and those who go on shooting sprees are social outcasts in some way. They tend to be the quiet withdrawn types that keep to themselves. There are exceptions of course. Sociopaths can be quite social and blend in very well. And not all social outcasts become killers. Most probably don't. Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

    Shame is what is used to civilize our society. And what is considered civilized in one culture is not civilized in another.

    "Civilized" refers to being able to adapt to and practice accepted social practices of the culture you live in. It does not refer to any particular practices specifically.

    Nudity is just one of many taboos that exist today. However there are practical reasons why people should not be nude. There is hygiene. Being nude means it is more likely that you will leave body fluids where you sit and the next person will sit in them, getting those fluids in places we don't want other people's fluids, while again leaving their own behind for the next person. So prevention of the spread of disease is a good reason to keep the genitals covered. Not to mention, you wouldn't want to snag your jewels on things. Other reasons for wearing clothes is to maintain proper body temperature in environments that are too cold to maintain 98.6 degrees F otherwise. Clothing also protects from biting insects and sunburn.

    It also hides imperfections that are unsightly to others, such as excessive body hair, fat rolls, body acne, extra nipples, weird birth marks, etc.... hiding these imperfection increases the odds of being able to mate. Ensuring your prospects are wearing beer goggles or are blind also helps. But that is more difficult and brings in all sorts of other ethical dilemmas.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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  6. #5  
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    Is it valid for Christians to use it as evidence?
    Evidence of WHAT?
    That we're naked under our clothes?
    Yes.

    And, perhaps more pertinently: DO Christians use it as "evidence"?
    Where and how?
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  7. #6  
    ▼▼ dn ʎɐʍ sıɥʇ ▼▼ RedPanda's Avatar
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    This thread brings to mind the apocryphal quote from Reverend Loveshade: "If we were meant to run around naked then we would have been born naked!"
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    Because we're bald.

    Ever see a hairless cat or a hairless dog?
    They look funny as hell.

    And so do we. We're compensating for a lack of fur.

    Then we see pretty pretty birds. And the fashion industry says, "OH! I wanna be like THOSE guys."
    Humans are nekkid and psychotic.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Is it valid for Christians to use it as evidence?
    Evidence of WHAT?
    That we're naked under our clothes?
    Yes.

    And, perhaps more pertinently: DO Christians use it as "evidence"?
    Where and how?
    in genesis about how the first evil occurred, when Adam and eve ate from the fruit(that they were not supposed to eat), then they felt shameful, and got leaves to clothe themselves in their shame (of nakedness).
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    If thy right nipple offend thee, pluck it off! Goes for the other, too!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    in genesis about how the first evil occurred, when Adam and eve ate from the fruit(that they were not supposed to eat), then they felt shameful, and got leaves to clothe themselves in their shame (of nakedness).
    Well, you'd need to also provide evidence for:
    Eden
    Adam and Eve
    A talking snake that is creepy, yet somehow... seductive
    Magical fruit that makes your brain expand enormously by biting it
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Er, if I remember my genesis correctly (which I do), the "first evil" occurred BEFORE they realised they were naked.
    IOW being ashamed "of nakedness" is, supposedly, a consequence of knowledge.
    Even if that were 100% true it would NOT be "evidence" of how we acquired knowledge.
    Nor would it be "evidence" that naked is, in and of itself, shameful.
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  12. #11  
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    The bible covers it by destruction by noahs flood, L0L!
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    If thy right nipple offend thee, pluck it off! Goes for the other, too!
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    Cultural norms don't stop me, I run around bare-assed flaunting my stuff on a daily basis in front of elementary schools.
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  14. #13  
    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    This could be why you're still a virgin
    That was a low blow.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Sorry dude, the comedy value said go for it...
    It's okay, you can't troll a troller.
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    Even within apparently similar societies there are wide variations in the shame, or not, of nakedness. Back before we were concerned about skin cancer, Australians happily let little kids run around naked at beaches where their American friends were mortified that mothers (and fathers) blithely ignored this vulgar display.

    German and Scandinavian communities can be somewhere between blase and enthusiastic about giving their bodies a public airing anywhere and everywhere. And nobody takes much notice.
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    I think most likely it's not men who started this taboo, but women. It provides a way to ensure the most attractive woman in the community isn't the only one getting to mate. It forces men to look at other traits, like...... um..... intellect I guess....

    In general, I see weird territorialism among women when it comes to men. Women claiming men who haven't even consented to court them and asking their peers to please not flirt with him. Stuff like that. Certainly those women would look badly upon a super model among them walking around in a thong all the time. She's not sharing the mates. Magazine models may get away with it because they're so inaccessible that the local men already know they can't have them. So no threat. Anyway you see where this is going?

    Even in Islamic communities with ridiculous extreme requirements like women wearing a hood over their face or a mask....or I forget what the proper name is. Does anyone honestly think Men are the ones who don't want to see that?!?!? We hold it up as an issue of Islam oppressing women, but more likely it is the women of Islam who are pushing to see this rule imposed upon each other.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I think most likely it's not men who started this taboo, but women. It provides a way to ensure the most attractive woman in the community isn't the only one getting to mate. It forces men to look at other traits, like...... um..... intellect I guess....

    Even in Islamic communities with ridiculous extreme requirements like women wearing a hood over their face or a mask....or I forget what the proper name is. Does anyone honestly think Men are the ones who don't want to see that?!?!? We hold it up as an issue of Islam oppressing women, but more likely it is the women of Islam who are pushing to see this rule imposed upon each other.
    Er, unlikely.
    From Wiki (with regard to the burqa):
    The Qur'an has been translated as stating:
    "O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the faithful to draw their outergarments (jilbabs) close around themselves; that is better that they will be recognized and not annoyed. And God is ever Forgiving, Gentle."

    Qur'an Surah Al-Ahzab Ayah 59
    Another verse in the Qur'an is translated as:
    "And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful"

    Qur'an Sura Nur Chapter: The Light. Verse 31
    IOW its men that decided women should cover up. So that men won't be tempted.
    Because, as we all know, if a man rapes a woman it's purely because she tempted him.

    Much like the recent case in the US where a woman was legally fired from her job for being "too attractive"
    I.e. her boss, being the poor subject-to-irresistible-female-beguilement man 1 that he is, was NOT, in any way responsible for his speculated upon, possible, hypothetical, "within a year or so" affair caused by her attractiveness.

    I'm male, therefore if I "force" my "unwanted" attentions on a woman it's actually her fault, ergo, women should cover themselves so that I don't do anything stupid.
    It's not up to ME to behave, it's up to women to not tempt me.


    What will they think of next?
    Blaming the woman and stoning her to death for being raped?
    Oh, wait... they DO, don't they.

    1 My use of the word "man" in this context does, of course, merely mean "male of the species who is legally of responsible age", and not anyone I'd call a man.
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    There was a nudist colony park that I worked at when they needed my help when something needed fixing. They allowed me to keep dressed as they went about naked. At first I didn't want to offend those people so I just keep my eyes away from looking at them as best possible but as I was working there and they walked by me I got use to them being naked and just got use to seeing a bunch of people naked everywhere. So I'd think that if people accept the idea that being naked, to them, isn't something wrong then those who desire to join a nudist colony and walk around naked should do so.

    But society isn't wanting this type of thing being flaunted about in pubic and that's where they draw the line, which is correct, and pass laws about indecent exposure. Keeping away from the general pubic because they cannot and will not condone pubic nudity is only right and should be adhered to by those wanting to dress with less because many are offended by this behavior. That's why nudist colonies and naked beaches are allowed in certain areas so that those who are offended won't be and those wanting the freedom to dress with less can do so without upsetting anyone.
    Last edited by cosmictraveler; April 12th, 2013 at 10:01 AM.
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    I keep hearing people make this assumption about history that, because women didn't historically enjoy the same, formally granted rights as men, and didn't hold as many positions of formal authority, that they also must not have made any significant contributions, nor participated in any of the decisions that shaped history.

    A man wrote down the rule, therefore the rule was (exclusively) that man's idea. Nobody else played any role whatsoever, absolute zero, in contributing to the creation of it. Everyone's motivation was based 100% exclusively on their blind obedience to the prophet, and it had nothing to do with them actually agreeing with the rule on any philosophical or logical level, or any other possible influence (such as a wife telling them her opinion of it.)
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    A man wrote down the rule, therefore the rule was (exclusively) that man's idea.
    Historically men have been the "educated" ones. They were the ones that got to write the final document.

    Everyone's motivation was based 100% exclusively on their blind obedience to the prophet, and it had nothing to do with them actually agreeing with the rule on any philosophical or logical level, or any other possible influence (such as a wife telling them her opinion of it.)
    Right. Because that's how "divine revelation" works.
    Some guy says "I think god's rules ought to say this, this and this but what do you guys think?"
    Absolutely NOT "I'm the prophet of the lord and he TOLD me you're going to accept HIS rules or be excommunicated/ stoned to death/ made to pull faces for an hour at the back of the room".
    I mean, if you join the church, any church, just pick one at random, you get to choose which rules you'll accept, decide which you'll ignore and put the others up for a consensus vote, right? And that attitude is not only welcomed by the "elders" it's positively encouraged.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    Nakedness: Why are we ashamed of it?
    I suspect it is related to our sense of being vulnerable to a variety of conditions. Initially to the elements, and through such repetitive action of "covering oneself up", the exposed body parts (that had been out of sight when covered up) brought the gaze of others they encounter; of which could have been out of pure curiosity, and subsequently of a sexual/lewd nature. Some other reasons I suspect is self-esteem derived from one's peer group regarding one's body and placing value on what that peer group thought of it (one's body), and the fact that earlier cultures are largely patriarchal did play a part in not wishing their mates draw the gazes of potential sexual rivals.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    Is it valid for Christians to use it as evidence?
    Used as evidence for... ?

    Why are you interested only about christians; aren't other cultures or people with belief systems that predate abrahamic faiths a valid enough reason to warrant your curiosity also?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    Are tribal people ashamed?
    Shame is a psychological state wherein the subject(s) experience an internalized condemnation/disgrace in violating a set of etiquette with arbitrary assigned values. These values may be shared within one's immediate group and/or across a much larger population such as a community, culture, society, nation, etc.

    So, in short, the answer is Yes. "Tribal people" which is usually used to describe a communal identity do experience shame to some extent; but if you're asking about shame with regards to being naked, the answer will have to be; not always and not necessarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    Are tribal people shameful of nakedness?
    Some do, some don't; if you have done some reading on the topic, or at the very least watched a couple of documentaries revolving around tribal cultures.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    Is the idea of shameful nakedness an idea programmed into our minds by the modern society?
    Not so modern, and not necessarily programmed.
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  23. #22  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I think most likely it's not men who started this taboo, but women. It provides a way to ensure the most attractive woman in the community isn't the only one getting to mate. It forces men to look at other traits, like...... um..... intellect I guess....

    In general, I see weird territorialism among women when it comes to men. Women claiming men who haven't even consented to court them and asking their peers to please not flirt with him. Stuff like that. Certainly those women would look badly upon a super model among them walking around in a thong all the time. She's not sharing the mates. Magazine models may get away with it because they're so inaccessible that the local men already know they can't have them. So no threat. Anyway you see where this is going?

    Even in Islamic communities with ridiculous extreme requirements like women wearing a hood over their face or a mask....or I forget what the proper name is. Does anyone honestly think Men are the ones who don't want to see that?!?!? We hold it up as an issue of Islam oppressing women, but more likely it is the women of Islam who are pushing to see this rule imposed upon each other.
    You are referring to the burqa or niqab. It was not women who declared the rule of covering a woman's face nor is it a rule exclusively for women. Men are also supposed to cover their faces though many, these days, do not. But the manner in which they cover is different. Women cover with a cloth. Men are supposed to grow a beard which covers the same portion of the face that a niqab (veil covering the lower half of the face) covers. This served many practical purposes during the time it was declared. First it prevented false allegations of crimes. If you could not see who did it, then you cannot claim that so-n-so did it. The crimes it mainly had in mind were sexual crimes. A man cannot claim to have "known" a woman if he cannot describe her features to her family.( A woman was not required to hide her face from her own family members.) So she would not easily be accused of lewd acts.

    In the desert, men, although they had beards, would often use cloth as well to cover the lower portion of their face and nose.

    Second covering the face also prevented sun burn and spread of disease and inhalation of dust blown in from the desert sands.

    Third it prevented the coveting of another man's wife. Or so it was believed to. It obviously didn't take into account the ability of a man to fantasize about the beauty of the unseen woman. She could be an ogre under there but a man who doesn't know will rarely imagine that she is hideous if her eyes are at least pretty.

    Imagine Mileena from Mortal Kombat
    with the veil


    without the veil



    Now that was how it was originally intended, but I do think that you are correct that it is more pressure from older women on younger women to cover up than it is men pressuring them in today's "modern" Muslim culture. Having lived in a Muslim country I covered but towards the end of my stay and having been emotionally abused more by my mother in law than by any men there I gradually started rebelling against her. I starting going out in a t-shirt and jeans with nothing but a baseball cap on my head. Some men would give me dirty looks, most just looked in shock, the younger ones were checkin me out. But the women, especially older ones would spit in my direction, even if they didn't have their own heads covered.

    But the origins of the covering did not come from women. It was initiated by a man. Mohammed to be specific. Now it is possible that maybe his older wife, Khadijah, who I like to refer to as one of the earliest known cougars, may have felt threatened by younger women and may have bitched under her breath about how slutty the other women were or it may have been that Mohammed himself caught himself checking out younger women as his wife was aging and felt guilty about it. But there is no evidence to suggest that she influenced him in that way. At least none that I am aware of. The only evidence of who initiated the rule for covering is the reported actions of Mohammed himself (hadith) Think about it. Assuming you love your wife, it would probably make you feel bad about yourself in some ways, if you catch yourself looking at better looking women, whether it be because your wife is old or just not very attractive to start with. I sincerely doubt that loving spouses feel totally guilt free when they catch themselves checking out another more attractive potential mates, regardless of the fact that most people do it subconsciously without realizing it. Mohammed was very adamant about preventing sin over punishing it. For instance, his answer to correcting any bad behavior was often, to tell one never to lie. Because the ability to lie is the ability to conceal one's own sin. If you cannot lie then you are less likely to commit sins that you know you will not be able to hide if someone asks you about it.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
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    Because not everyone has the sexy body of shlunka, and thus, the human species decided to FORCE shlunka and everyone else to wear clothes, so that nobody would see shlunka's rockin' body and become so jealous that they destroy the Earth by amassing an enormous penguin army.
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    Virgin...
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    Naked is nice!

    jocular
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Naked is nice!
    So... You want to see Shlunka naked?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Naked is nice!
    So... You want to see Shlunka naked?
    As Kofi Annan said, "Hell, No!" However, in my case, Shlunka, sure, but I want to see everybody naked! jocular

    Edit: I want to see everybody naked (who care to be so seen, otherwise, the deal is off!).
    Last edited by jocular; April 14th, 2013 at 10:17 PM. Reason: clarification of my wickedness
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    I do not wish for you to see me naked.


    Sorry.
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    Me too, i do not wish for you to see me naked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    If thy right nipple offend thee, pluck it off! Goes for the other, too!
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    Nakedness is just disgusting (no 1), humans and animals differ (no2) so we wear clothes to differ from the animals + we need ot stay warm and thus we have to wear clothes.
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    what the heck is wrong with you?? just because you don't want to follow Islam there is no need to start acting like a.... forget it your not even worth being insulted at miss saegysy, i bet that you really are a gypsy, could tell by the disgraceful words that you used there. your a woman yourself but you insult other women. shut that massive hell that you call a mouth and get on with the dirty life that you are leading! And don't speak of the things that you don't know e.g. what do you know of sin after all that picture of you looking more like a devil or maybe even the teacher of the devil. and BTW no one needs you here so get the hell out!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Love being ageek View Post
    Nakedness is just disgusting
    Yeah. If God wanted us to be naked, we would have been born that way!

    Quote Originally Posted by Love being ageek View Post
    what the heck is wrong with you?? just because you don't want to follow Islam there is no need to start acting like a.... forget it your not even worth being insulted at miss saegysy, i bet that you really are a gypsy, could tell by the disgraceful words that you used there. your a woman yourself but you insult other women. shut that massive hell that you call a mouth and get on with the dirty life that you are leading! And don't speak of the things that you don't know e.g. what do you know of sin after all that picture of you looking more like a devil or maybe even the teacher of the devil. and BTW no one needs you here so get the hell out!
    Completely inappropriate. You need to check the holier-than-thou attitude.
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    Others have said it before me .... but now I'm speaking as a moderator.

    Love being ageek. Pay attention.

    Participation in these forums is not a right. It is a privilege. Bad behaviour such as you've engaged in here can lead to suspension or termination of that privilege.

    Mind your manners. Please.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Wow, good morning to me i guess. I have my suspicions that Love being ageek is an existing member using a sockpuppet to vent. You guys may wanna check out the ip and compare it to others.

    Having had a recent private dispute with one young member over the topic of faith has me suspicious.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Says you and your devil's haircut.

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    Is it just my imagination or does Beck look like Michael Cera?

    Beck:


    Michael Cera:

    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    They do look alike. Just Beck is cooler.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    They do look alike. Just Beck is cooler.
    True.

    I have to admit. I am quite flattered by the insults directed at me by this kid. They must have spent quite a bit of brain energy being mad at what I said. I usually only pull that kind of emotional response from someone if I offend someone that cares about I think. No one else on here seems to care much about what I think. So I must matter a lot to this kid. Awfully sweet if ya ask me. Maybe I will send her an autographed photo of my evil self. lol.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Nah, she was telling the duck off too, but wait - ducks float like witches so he's obviously evil too...
    Telling me off?
    I've barely participated in this thread.
    I didn't notice I was being told off.
    Admonitions slide off me like water off a, er [possibly evil] duck's back.
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    I never understood, and likely never will.

    I know a sculptor who was not satisfied with the face of one of his pieces, so he lopped off it's head, finished it off, and took it to the art fair and much to his delight, sold it.

    He then started making "nude" statues no cloths, and no heads, and sometimes no arms--------and started making something that approximated a decent living with his art----from modeling clay to carving to building up clay then firing it

    He said that a nude piece with a face was seen as naked, and unsettled potential customers, but they seemed just enough less representative of humans without their faces or heads, that they were less unsettling, and sold well

    Nude is ok, naked ain't

    I do not understand, and likely never will
    ...................
    I once dated a woman who always insisted in turning off the lights before she disrobed-------really, she had a nice body, pleasing to look at, but needed the "cover" of darkness to feel free. Ok, so we had some fun and ....

    I never understood, and likely never will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Nah, she was telling the duck off too, but wait - ducks float like witches so he's obviously evil too...
    But Duck actually knows what he is talking about most of the time. So its common for his opinion to matter. Not common for mine to matter as I admit pretty regularly that I don't have any credentials. Or a load of formal education. I have plenty of life experience which gives me insight into some things that others do not, but it in no way makes me all that important. And duck gets chewed out by cranks all the time. I actually worry sometimes that the cranks don't see me as much of a threat.


    If adelady hadn't already addressed it I might have reported geek for sexual harassment. Neverfly is the only one allowed to call me a dirty girl.
    Last edited by seagypsy; April 14th, 2013 at 12:29 PM. Reason: after thought
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Love being ageek View Post
    what the heck is wrong with you?? just because you don't want to follow Islam there is no need to start acting like a.... forget it your not even worth being insulted at miss saegysy, i bet that you really are a gypsy, could tell by the disgraceful words that you used there. your a woman yourself but you insult other women. shut that massive hell that you call a mouth and get on with the dirty life that you are leading! And don't speak of the things that you don't know e.g. what do you know of sin after all that picture of you looking more like a devil or maybe even the teacher of the devil. and BTW no one needs you here so get the hell out!
    Unnecessary insults to other members. See you next week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Love being ageek View Post
    what the heck is wrong with you?? just because you don't want to follow Islam there is no need to start acting like a.... forget it your not even worth being insulted at miss saegysy, i bet that you really are a gypsy, could tell by the disgraceful words that you used there. your a woman yourself but you insult other women. shut that massive hell that you call a mouth and get on with the dirty life that you are leading! And don't speak of the things that you don't know e.g. what do you know of sin after all that picture of you looking more like a devil or maybe even the teacher of the devil. and BTW no one needs you here so get the hell out!
    Unnecessary insults to other members. See you next week.
    Could I borrow your ban hammer sometime?
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  45. #44  
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    Na...LOL
    You and others doing the right thing by reporting problem threads and post. It's the first stop for the mods at the top of our page when we log on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Love being ageek View Post
    what the heck is wrong with you?? just because you don't want to follow Islam there is no need to start acting like a.... forget it your not even worth being insulted at miss saegysy, i bet that you really are a gypsy, could tell by the disgraceful words that you used there. your a woman yourself but you insult other women. shut that massive hell that you call a mouth and get on with the dirty life that you are leading! And don't speak of the things that you don't know e.g. what do you know of sin after all that picture of you looking more like a devil or maybe even the teacher of the devil. and BTW no one needs you here so get the hell out!
    Some people simply cannot handle the ugly truths they wish to hide from.
    Following up on this, it's painfully apparent that your entire outburst stems from you taking exception to Islam being laid bare for all to see.

    What bothered you was seeing Mohammad spoken about in a HUMAN manner. Much like the Christians that got up in arms over the "Da Vinci Code" story claiming that Jesus was not a virgin and got married.
    They called it "Satans writing" and demanded it be banned of all things. Banned- against every principle the Constitution stands for- just because they couldn't stand to see their 'Hiro Hito' humanized.

    That you read into the imagery of "Mileena" as 'devils pictures' may be a cultural difference. Either way, your entire outburst stemmed from you feeling like your Faith was exposed.
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    Would required nudity cure obesity? Just asking, I think most of us have probably checked out online nudist pictures at some time. While I remember seeing many body types, even some over weight people, I don't remember ever seeing any very over weight people in the buff. But then that's a good thing right?
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    gag me with a spoon?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Would required nudity cure obesity? Just asking, I think most of us have probably checked out online nudist pictures at some time. While I remember seeing many body types, even some over weight people, I don't remember ever seeing any very over weight people in the buff. But then that's a good thing right?
    No.

    Go to Wal-Mart sometime. You'll see plenty of physically horrifying people with no concept of modesty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Would required nudity cure obesity? Just asking, I think most of us have probably checked out online nudist pictures at some time. While I remember seeing many body types, even some over weight people, I don't remember ever seeing any very over weight people in the buff. But then that's a good thing right?
    If you've ever been to a nudist beach, you would find people of all shapes and sizes. The whole point is that, for nudists, the shape of your body doesn't matter at all. I'm guessing those pictures weren't showing the whole picture, as it were.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Would required nudity cure obesity? Just asking, I think most of us have probably checked out online nudist pictures at some time. While I remember seeing many body types, even some over weight people, I don't remember ever seeing any very over weight people in the buff. But then that's a good thing right?
    If you've ever been to a nudist beach, you would find people of all shapes and sizes. The whole point is that, for nudists, the shape of your body doesn't matter at all. I'm guessing those pictures weren't showing the whole picture, as it were.
    Nope, never have been and don't plan on it. But I wonder how most people ever get hooked on nudist camps? I would guess most of them grew up in practicing nudist families. But suppose you fell in love with a person and then they told you about their nudism life and their intention to keep it up. Could you stay with them and also join them in the nudist good life.
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  52. #51  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    But suppose you fell in love with a person and then they told you about their nudism life and their intention to keep it up. Could you stay with them and also join them in the nudist good life.
    Not if it was Shlunka.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    But suppose you fell in love with a person and then they told you about their nudism life and their intention to keep it up. Could you stay with them and also join them in the nudist good life.
    Not if it was Shlunka.
    Can I see a picture, so I can judge the temptation to go bareback?

    Sorry, I missed that one. I thought you were talking about a good looking female.
    Last edited by Bad Robot; April 14th, 2013 at 09:01 PM.
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    Umm... Killjoy, I mean Arkane... drat I mean Bad Robot... I wonder if you know what that word means? You might wanna change it to just bare or bare bottomed or something...
    Because Shlunka is a dude and you guys talking about barebacking... It's all wayyy too much.
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    I think any sense of embarrassment and shame is acquired, not innate. When nakedness is considered normal and people are doing ordinary things that way it fails to acquire - or loses - the titillation element. How many modern men find the glimpse of an ankle a turn on? When the 'clothe yourself to hide your shameful body' mores meant floor length dresses including covered ankles, it apparently was.

    Love being ageek demonstrates how thorough that learning can be - not just personal embarrassment and shame results arises, but bigotry and (in this case verbal) attacks on those who don't abide by that taught code. Even to being offended and disgusted, presumably, by all those people who live in warm climates where clothing is not a necessity and who have traditionally - and without being titillated - worn little or no clothing. Glad to see the mods step in - I think for the embedded racial slur against Gypsy/Romani people even more so than what was directed at SeaGypsy. Although the rest was more than bad enough.
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    The irony being in that "SeaGyspy" refers to a Pirate, not a landbound nomad...

    ARRR Matey's; beware the wrath of the Flying Spaghetti Monsters noodly appendage smiting ye heathenish backsides!
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    Well I think that there are plenty of practical reasons, warmth, hygiene, environmental. But the social awkwardness factor alone should be enough.

    What if you were out walking naked with your girlfriend and you walk past a group of guys who all get boners when they see how big her knockers are... Awkward much?

    Or what if you're walking by yourself past a group of guys who all get boners when they see you... Feeling some anxiety?

    Or what if you go to your American Civics class and the female professor has huge knockers? Hard to concentrate?

    Or what if you get stuck behind some fat elderly guy in a aisle of the grocery store who always insists on grabbing stuff from the bottom shelf?

    I think society got this one right, keep your clothes on!
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    Graphic, but accurate.
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    Maybe people felt more vulnerable when nude. If everyone in a specific setting felt this way, wouldn't this become a cultural norm? I mean if everyone thought that wearing clothes made people seem vulnerable, then wouldn't everyone go nude because they agree with the belief or maybe just want to fit in?
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    what are boners?
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    If thy right nipple offend thee, pluck it off! Goes for the other, too!
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    S1(mpl)-E @63 - I think the awkwardness of those situations is a consequence of learned responses. Not that they aren't genuine responses, but people who've grown up with nakedness as normal would be unlikely to be much aroused by nakedness in the context of ordinary activities - I think your examples are of people for whom it isn't ordinary encountering people for whom it is, mis-reading the 'message' in the way people dress - or in this case, don't. It could be argued that it's not the people naked that are being inappropriate, but deliberately following and pretending to have to get things from the bottom shelf in order to get a look - that's definitely inappropriate.

    I expect (just thinking aloud - no references) that for cultures that treat nakedness as normal and not, by itself, as any message of flirtation or titillation, that it requires an appropriate context for nakedness to convey that. It could even be the covering up that draws the attention and sends the "available and interested" message. And it could be something entirely divorced from the relevant body parts - a particular belt or necklace or other accessory - that gives the message. I find it interesting that the actual body parts are less titillating than a culturally created meaning attached to something that, by itself, has nothing to do with sex.
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    Once, when we were done sculpting for the day, and the model was getting dressed as i was cleaning up and covering the clay with a moist cloth, I noticed and said: "gee(her name), i must be getting weird, 3 hours I been staring at your naked body as I sculpted, and now, as you're in your panties and putting on your bra, I'm getting a hard on....jeez"
    and she said, "that means that when you are working, nothing else matters, but when you're done, I matter as a sexual being"

    It is indeed a matter of perspective--------when working, she was just a means to an end of refining the clay, when the work was done for the day, she regained her person-hood, and i responded as apropos of the moment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    I noticed and said: "gee(her name), i must be getting weird, 3 hours I been staring at your naked body as I sculpted, and now, as you're in your panties and putting on your bra, I'm getting a hard on....jeez"
    How professional.
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    Its a cultural thing - here in the West we are taught its shameful to be naked in public. It would be interesting to know Inuit views on nakedness assuming they cover up because they have to rather than it being cultural (obviously my assumption could be wrong). Any ideas?
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Because we're bald.

    Ever see a hairless cat or a hairless dog?
    They look funny as hell.

    And so do we. We're compensating for a lack of fur.
    I think you have that backwards. It was our ability to fashion clothing which allowed our relative lack of body hair to develop.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madanthonywayne View Post
    I think you have that backwards. It was our ability to fashion clothing which allowed our relative lack of body hair to develop.
    I honestly do not know if the fur came first or the clothes. Do you have any support for this statement? I think it would be interested to know the current consensus.
    Did we get naked and then make clothes? Or did we make clothes that made us naked?

    Fur tends to hide blemishes, zits, moles, birthmarks and the like. I wonder if lacking a thick and heavy coating made our breeding selection more picky against massive melanoma and such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madanthonywayne View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Because we're bald.

    Ever see a hairless cat or a hairless dog?
    They look funny as hell.

    And so do we. We're compensating for a lack of fur.
    I think you have that backwards. It was our ability to fashion clothing which allowed our relative lack of body hair to develop.
    That may be a point of view of a few people. Do you know of any supporting information for that view? I was always under the impression that our need for more protection against low temperatures in the northern land masses was the primary reason we started using animal skins as a form of clothing.

    But contrary to what Neverfly said, we are not bald, at least most of us. Our bodies have hair all over. It's just not very thick, so lots of skin shows through. I can't help being intrigued by what a woman with short beautiful fur would look like and so much better if she could purr like a cat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    But contrary to what Neverfly said, we are not bald, at least most of us. Our bodies have hair all over. It's just not very thick, so lots of skin shows through.
    This is true and Adelady had pointed this out in a thread sometime back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    I can't help being intrigued by what a woman with short beautiful fur would look like and so much better if she could purr like a cat.
    Robot want play with cute kitty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    But contrary to what Neverfly said, we are not bald, at least most of us. Our bodies have hair all over. It's just not very thick, so lots of skin shows through.
    This is true and Adelady had pointed this out in a thread sometime back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    I can't help being intrigued by what a woman with short beautiful fur would look like and so much better if she could purr like a cat.
    Robot want play with cute kitty.
    Only if she doesn't need a cat box.
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    The long - probably excessively so - thread on the evolution of hairlessness just got sent trashwards. I think some interesting ideas got discussed but if there was any conclusion it was that nobody knows how or why a line of hominids lost their fur - my own speculation is that a clever tool using hominid could compensate for the downsides of furlessness with shelter, bedding and clothing but clothes would not, if the climate was warm where it happened, have been a necessity. I doubt that clothing was as important as shelter. It could have been a long time between furlessness and clothing and longer still before it was socially meaningful clothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fabos View Post
    The long - probably excessively so - thread on the evolution of hairlessness just got sent trashwards. I think some interesting ideas got discussed but if there was any conclusion it was that nobody knows how or why a line of hominids lost their fur - my own speculation is that a clever tool using hominid could compensate for the downsides of furlessness with shelter, bedding and clothing but clothes would not, if the climate was warm where it happened, have been a necessity. I doubt that clothing was as important as shelter. It could have been a long time between furlessness and clothing and longer still before it was socially meaningful clothing.
    The correct answer is mate selection. Women apparently prefer less harry men.
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    It would be interesting to know Inuit views on nakedness assuming they cover up because they have to rather than it being cultural (obviously my assumption could be wrong).
    But that's only when they're outside. As I understand it it can get quite snug, if not oppressively warm and stuffy, in a small enclosed space like an igloo or similar highly insulated structure. You certainly wouldn't want to be wearing the layers of thick furs worn outside to protect you from lethal cold. And, traditionally, there wouldn't have been underwear (or trackies or similar) made of woven fabrics. So a new and interesting question - what were the traditional inner layers of clothing and would you bother to make, maintain and transport items light enough to cover you when inside and you're already (un)comfortably warm?
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    look who's talking here,miss rat! if anyone has any issues that their problem and not mine and how do you know that they all said insults, are you a stalker or something, having mental issues are you? well see a psychologist, let them help and i bet since you are so in favor of nakedness, you would walk into the streets naked if it wasn't for the laws that are against it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Love being ageek View Post
    look who's talking here,miss rat! if anyone has any issues that their problem and not mine and how do you know that they all said insults, are you a stalker or something, having mental issues are you? well see a psychologist, let them help and i bet since you are so in favor of nakedness, you would walk into the streets naked if it wasn't for the laws that are against it!
    I thought you said you were nice? Who are you harping on now? Anyway you are right, if people were meant to be naked they'd be born that way!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Love being ageek View Post
    look who's talking here,miss rat! if anyone has any issues that their problem and not mine and how do you know that they all said insults, are you a stalker or something, having mental issues are you? well see a psychologist, let them help and i bet since you are so in favor of nakedness, you would walk into the streets naked if it wasn't for the laws that are against it!
    You have an admirable and particular talent for making friends.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    There was a nudist colony park that I worked at when they needed my help when something needed fixing. They allowed me to keep dressed as they went about naked. At first I didn't want to offend those people so I just keep my eyes away from looking at them as best possible but as I was working there and they walked by me I got use to them being naked and just got use to seeing a bunch of people naked everywhere. So I'd think that if people accept the idea that being naked, to them, isn't something wrong then those who desire to join a nudist colony and walk around naked should do so.

    But society isn't wanting this type of thing being flaunted about in pubic and that's where they draw the line, which is correct, and pass laws about indecent exposure. Keeping away from the general pubic because they cannot and will not condone pubic nudity is only right and should be adhered to by those wanting to dress with less because many are offended by this behavior. That's why nudist colonies and naked beaches are allowed in certain areas so that those who are offended won't be and those wanting the freedom to dress with less can do so without upsetting anyone.
    Not to mention that some cultures go naked because it is healthy. They think when rain falls on the body it does the same thing for humans as it does for the tree.
    I think its all in the mind. It is easy to know if it is in the mind or not, just try it at home, walk around for a little while with no clothes and the eyes stays in their sockets if the opposite sex is present.
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    Where I live the Squirrels are nudists, they shamelessly scurry around naked, in broad day light!

    There are many reasons to wear clothing, but any shame associated to being naked is mostly cultural.

    (Ive been to mono-kini beaches in Cote d'Azur, and to not-even-regular-public-pools Saudi Arabia, the culture was different)
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    Actually I don't think it has a lot to do with being ashamed, unless you perceive your body isn't up to acceptable standards. What is it about clothes that makes society want to enforce laws about not running around naked?

    1) Clothing is big business.
    2) Clothing is a way to impress others with your importance.
    3) Clothing is a way to hide, imperfections and aging bodies.
    4) Clothing is a way to set groups of people apart from each other (cultures), (rich and poor), (solders and civilians) ...etc.

    We can hardly be expected to get along without clothing now, can we?
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    Bad Robot @78 -

    The correct answer is mate selection. Women apparently prefer less harry men.
    I think you are looking at furlessness/hairlessness from the wrong end of it's evolution - amongst the furry it's those without fur that will be ugly. If our (male) ancestors found hairy females a turnoff we wouldn't be here to argue about it. The rapidity of change in fashion with respect to men's body hair over the past couple of decades indicates that it's something subject to dramatic change ie it's not long running or something innate, but something learned. I get the impression that the idea that body hair is unhygienic - a very recent notion - plays a large part in a fashion trend of hair removal that includes both sexes.

    The idea that it's a consequence of sexual selection isn't new but there are some other (to my thinking) more compelling possible explanations. Given that the academics have been unable to agree, there's plenty of opportunity for interesting speculation. I may start another evolution of furlessness thread - don't wish to divert this thread too far off topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fabos View Post
    The correct answer is mate selection. Women apparently prefer less harry men.
    I think you are looking at furlessness/hairlessness from the wrong end of it's evolution - amongst the furry it's ...........
    and im guessing that all our conclusions come from mere guesses?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanawe123 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fabos View Post
    The correct answer is mate selection. Women apparently prefer less harry men.
    I think you are looking at furlessness/hairlessness from the wrong end of it's evolution - amongst the furry it's ...........
    and im guessing that all our conclusions come from mere guesses?
    As far as evolution goes mate selection is a big part of it, and that's not a guess. Also I do know I don't find harry women attractive and most women I know don't prefer harry men. Without doing more research I can't be more certain as to why we are relatively hairless, but mate selection is a good bet.
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    ryanawe123 - speculation and guesses, but informed and bounded by what is known from fossil, DNA and other evidence and by what is understood about evolution's constraints and possibilities. Why the juvenile human has (excluding scalp) only fine vellus hair would be hard to explain by sexual selection alone, even if the (highly variable and sex dependent) androgenic hair patterns of adults are probably hard to explain without sexual selection.

    But this is taking us off topic, which is centred on evolution/emergence of particular behaviors and customs. Which is probably even less obviously constrained by any depth of knowledge.
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    Bad Robot - but as recently as a decade or 2 ago, hairy chested men were held up as attractive to women. It's absence was 'unmanly'. If our likes and dislikes are so fickle, how can you assume it's a persistent preference that goes back to our pre-human ancestors?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fabos View Post
    Bad Robot - but as recently as a decade or 2 ago, hairy chested men were held up as attractive to women. It's absence was 'unmanly'. If our likes and dislikes are so fickle, how can you assume it's a persistent preference that goes back to our pre-human ancestors?
    There is a reason why we are the way we are, and sex selection has really produced some very far out animals. It seems like an easy connection to make. There could be some other factors, but I'm still thinking the major reason is sex selection.
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    Perhaps, women naturally prefer hairless men?
    but that "1decade or so" was just a small time where society pressure driven 'hairy chested men are attractive' into the minds of women?

    i could be wrong haha
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    Not at all. My own observation is that one of the main reasons for the changes in what is and isn't considered attractive - in both sexes - has been driven largely by our own culture's gradual acceptance of non-white facial and body features. If you look at the celebrated women of the silent films era, one thing is really striking, tiny, tiny little "button" mouths. No one with the wide mouth and lips of, say Julia Roberts or Angelina Jolie. Such features had earlier been regarded as undesirable because they indicated either sexual "looseness" or black ancestry, either of which which was a horror to be avoided at all costs. But even Mae West, not silent by any means, showed small, thinnish lips compared to what is now considered attractive or desirable.

    Similarly for some male characteristics. Once they introduced the Bruce Lees and Jackie Chans into mainstream popular culture, there was a different body form and appearance that both men and women thought was first acceptable and then attractive. Part of that difference was hairlessness.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    There is also a trend that comes and goes among cultures that tattoos or piercings may be attractive or offensive as fads go in and out. If we went a 1000 years of having piercings and tattoos being the preference, we wouldn't suddenly start being born with strange protrusions in our skin or funky birth marks that look like pictures or words.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Love being ageek View Post
    look who's talking here,miss rat! if anyone has any issues that their problem and not mine and how do you know that they all said insults, are you a stalker or something, having mental issues are you? well see a psychologist, let them help
    After your previous post in this thread, you return with this?

    Aren't you a charming individual.


    and i bet since you are so in favor of nakedness, you would walk into the streets naked if it wasn't for the laws that are against it!
    Damn straight!

    Less laundry, cooler in summer, although cold get a bit nippy in winter. But that would be when we'd stop shaving our legs and smear our body in animal fat to keep warm. Mmm lard...
    Lynx_Fox likes this.
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