March 13th, 2013, 02:08 AM
How can you tell when someone is dissociating?
I've recently just heard this term and am trying to understand it and what it looks like-dissociation.
From my understanding everyone does it to some degree, but some people do it too much and it hinders their life.
But what does dissociating actually look like?
How can you tell if you have been dissociating? Or how can you tell if someone else is dissociating? Really, from the outside, it does not look particularly different. Maybe a bit "spaced out" or absent, but even a professsional would probably have to ask. The only way is to look for subtle clues and then to ask. Of course unless the other person trusts you a good deal they are not going to take kindly to being asked.
The whole point of dissociation is to escape from an unpleasant reality. If you are part of the unpleasant reality the person is not going to admit to dissociation or even be aware of it.
I dissociate anytime I must endure something physically painful. Like getting a shot. i make a conscious effort to process the pain in a way that I separate myself from it and therefor eliminate the sensation or perceive the sensation as something other than what it is.
One can be very much aware they are dissociating. However, it is not usually the case. Selective amnesia may be an example of dissociative disorder. When a memory is blocked out, usually a memory of something traumatic.
Unless you know someone very well, and spend a lot of time with them, you will likely have considerable trouble identifying dissociative behavior.
If someone bounces back instantly from what would normally have a person grieving for some time, there is a chance they are dissociating.
For instance a best friend is killed in a car accident. If the surviving friend never displays the signs of going through the grieving process, there is a chance they are blocking out the pain of the loss, possibly the memory of the friendship in order to not suffer.
This may be nosy but do you have a particular situation you are concerned about? Some details without names may help in determining if there is reason to suspect dissociation. And as you stated, dissociation does serve its purpose in a healthy mind. But if it is taken to extremes can be detrimental.
I'm not too sure if you're asking for signs that someone might have developed a dissociative disorder, or if you mean what Sealeaf and Seagypsy are referring to. Dissociative disorders are pretty rare - to develop one, you need to have had a pretty awful experience, or an extremely awful experience with drugs - and usually the person is already depressed. Somebody with a dissociative disorder would probably be showing the following sorts of symptoms: Sudden withdrawals from social situations/constantly declining invitations to social events, not appearing to display any sorts of emotion - often, they feel awful on the inside (A feeling of "nothingness"), but they don't -or- can't express how they feel, lethargy, and sudden withdrawal from regular talkative behaviour.Originally Posted by Trina365
A pretty good way of finding signs is if you pay attention to the person in question's behaviour while you're with a small group of mutual friends. They probably won't say much of anything, won't show interest in the situation, and will give very brief responses when they are engaged directly.
*It's important to remember that everyone is different, sometimes people are just introverted, so you'd have to know the person well enough to notice a sudden change in their attitude and actions.
Other than that, what the Sea-people said is on the level. People dissociate from time to time, and it's normal for people to do so - just make sure they bounce back.
I suffer from chronic Depersonalization/Derealization disorder, considered a dissociative syndrome. Nobody can tell when I'm in a state of deep dissociation-- its pretty undetectable at non-catatonic levels..... people always seem to notice when the conditions spontaneously results in multiple panic attacks from hell.
I know someone who suffers from derealization. It would be very hard to tell unless you knew the person closely and could detect very slight changes in behaviour or mood that the average person wouldn't see. People who are dissociating may still have to appear normal in order to function in society, e.g. perform at their jobs so they can get paid. Maybe they will seem slightly irritable or tired because hiding the dissociation can itself be stressful and tiring.
Edit: By dissociating I was assuming the OP meant to a level that would be considered a psychological problem, like not recognizing yourself as one distinct individual that you can identify in a mirror or not recognizing that you are part of your environment and that it is real. I didn't think the OP was referring to normal, everyday daydreaming.
What treatment would be needed to cure oneself, without medicine?
I think probably one of the most well known, while being one of the rarest forms of dissociative disorder is what used to be called multiple personality disorder. Unless you have known an individual most of their life you may NEVER know they have this. Imagine, they have one personality that goes to work, another that goes clubbing, and another that functions perfectly well at home, If none of the personalities ever create close attachments to people who would cross over into other areas of their life, then the multiple personalities could coexist, maybe even be aware of each other (though the real identity is rarely aware of secondary ones), and no one outside of themselves would ever know.
Has anyone here ever seen the movie "Sybil"?
@EndlessEndeavor, I am not familiar with the conditions you mentioned. They change the names of things all the time so I will have to look them up and see what you are referring to.
Off Topic Rambling:
Alec Bing; any correlation to Alec Bings of 'The Phantom Tollbooth?' Just curious.
Yes!
I believe the woman who wrote Sybil was outed as a fraud.
Whether the story was based on fact or fiction is irrelevant. The story accurately depicted how the dissociative personality disorder can manifest itself.Yes!
I believe the woman who wrote Sybil was outed as a fraud.
Whether the story was based on fact or fiction is irrelevant. The story accurately depicted how the dissociative personality disorder can manifest itself.[/QUOTE]
To know whether that were true, you would need to have a description of someone who really had dissociative personality disorder. In which case, it would be better to use that description directly instead of the Sybil story.
Descriptions have been given, the Sybil story was just an example for simplification. Examples are often given when describing a scenario someone may not be able to fully conceive. Why does this bother you?To know whether that were true, you would need to have a description of someone who really had dissociative personality disorder. In which case, it would be better to use that description directly instead of the Sybil story.Whether the story was based on fact or fiction is irrelevant. The story accurately depicted how the dissociative personality disorder can manifest itself.
If you want to nitpick me to satisfy some ego dilemma feel free.
Better yet, if you find something wrong with how I have described something why don't YOU explain exactly what is wrong with the Sybil story or the descriptions given by giving the exact description yourself. Otherwise you are complaining for no purpose other than to suppose that you are somehow superior to others without giving evidence to the claim.
Last edited by seagypsy; March 25th, 2013 at 11:09 AM.
Couldn't dissociation actually be advantageous for soldiers during combat? I'm aware that several members on here are ex-military, and I'd like some input if willing.
Absolutely. Many of the conditions considered to be mental illness are simply when good programs malfunction. Like the delete function in your operating system. Being able to delete a file is an excellent and very useful function of the operating system, but if the delete function started malfunctioning causing it to delete the entire parent folder that a file is stored in rather than just the file you intended to delete, this would be a huge program.
Dissociating is like the quarantine function of an antivirus software. It allows your to separate the rest of your system from a file that poses a threat to the proper functioning of the system as a whole, and it can either destroy the file or simply keep it locked down until you know how to properly assess the risk and negate it.
So obviously this is in general a useful function so long as it doesn't go haywire and start misidentifying legitimate files as risks and start locking you out of files that your operating system needs.
A rather different point of view...
I did no dissociation.
A personal belief is that I chose to partake in actions and I am, therefor, bound to carry the weight of it. And I won't bother playing it off all cool, either. It's luggage, baggage and a severe burden. You will never, in the rest of your life, get those eyes staring back at you out of your head. Every single time you close your eyes, no matter how distracted you are, no matter how tired, no matter how good a day you had... The moment your eyes close, like old friends... they are always there to greet you. Silent reminders that will never let you forget.
I believe, without the necessity of a God, that life is an amazing machine. It's something to revere and admire and yes, even take. Taking a life is done when it is a necessity.
To kill without need is dishonorable.
To kill without respect and mourning for the life you take is very unhealthy.
To dissociate is to remove the humanity, for me. I understand others do not see it this way.
But for me, to remove it is only to build a facade- it never really removes it; it is only a lie. And lies have this knack for eating you up inside.
Sometimes, one needs to embrace what hurts them in order to take away its control over them.
So, it is a burden one might choose to carry. No one can carry it for you. No one can lift it. The best they can do is walk beside you and allow you to carry it. Which is difficult on most- most will not do it.
Time does not stop. This means that everything and everyone will ever knew and ever will know is always a memory. This post is a memory. It is not being written, it has already been written, already been read and is just a memory. To remove a memory from oneself is to remove a part of who they are.
And the burden is heavy. Make no mistake- it is heavy. Typing this memory is agony, for me. Even during the process, I have had to pause to take a breath, wipe my eyes- then back to the keyboard. It is that way every time I ever talk about it.
It's just the way it is to be a part of the life cycle, sometimes.
Because life must be revered, must be admired, must be protected and must be taken.
I think one of the biggest mistakes of humanity is to try to preserve things, an obsession with "forever." They seek to make life "forever" with everlasting life after death, even. Preserve, mummify, keep, hold... I do not agree. We are not permanent, life must have an ending.
To dissociate from that is to enforce that mistake. To pretend there was no ending. To hide.
Dissociation (psychology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dissociation Explanation, by Carolyn Waddell
Posttraumatic stress disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is my opinion, that failing to dissociate at the proper time or to the proper degree can indirectly cause PTSD. Or that PTSD is just a symptom of an already existing inability to naturally know when or how to use dissociation effectively. When my son was diagnosed with ptsd as a child because he witnessed me being beaten by his father. His therapist explained to me that since he did not dissociate from the traumatic experience as it was happening he instead was dissociating from his existence outside the traumatic event. This was causing to live in a somewhat persistent state of fear and anxiety directly linked to witnessing the abuse. It took a year and a half of therapy to help him realize that he was not in danger any more (i had divorced his father several years before the ptsd manifested itself) and that he was not responsible for his experience.
PTSD can be quite debilitating and often the intense dissociation from current events vs past events prevents the person from being able to move on with their lives. They can become withdrawn, severely introverted, prone to addiction to drugs, alcohol or even online gaming. My son was drawn into an imaginary world that he was creating where the hero of the story was parallel to how he saw himself or wanted to see himself. He has since recovered but maintains the story he started with the story line now straying from any parallels with reality and he is converting it into a MMORPG. My ex-boyfriend and several other people i have known lived vicariously through internet persona they created, whether through myspace, World of warcraft, or even secondlife. Online someone can dissociate from who they perceive themselves to be, which is often a misconception drawn from an inappropriate and unfair negative self image brought on by taking too much responsibility/blame for the traumatic event. But the online persona they create is the person they want to be and want others to perceive them to be. And by successfully portraying this other person online, they are able to comfort themselves that they are not the person they perceive themselves to be.When in reality, they are probably someone in between who they perceive themselves to be and how they portray themselves to be. And they choose to live in that pseudo digital reality which denies any flaws or injuries their real identity may be suffering from their past.
It is dangerous to hang on to past trauma as it leads to depression and anxiety and sometimes even suicide. Even if PTSD does not fully develop, severe depression is very common and can be debilitating, interfering with relationships, interfering with ability to maintain a job, weakens physical health, and causing one to become self destructive in their moods and actions.
Mayo Clinic can be a good souce of info: Dissociative disorders: Symptoms - MayoClinic.com
From above, how to recognize a dissociative disorder in someone else:
However, dramatic changes in behavior can be due to many different things, and as for memory loss, there's evidence that the different personalities do share memories, so someone with dissociative identity disorder may not also display memory loss:If you or someone you love has significant, unexplained memory loss or experiences a dramatic change in behavior when under stress, talk to a doctor.
A story that doesn
Original paper:
PLOS ONE: Inter-Identity Autobiographical Amnesia in Patients with Dissociative Identity Disorder
Also this, from medscape: http://emedicine.medscape.com/articl...view#aw2aab6b4
Unfortunately, once again these can all be symptoms of other conditions, which would make diagnosis difficult, whether that results in underdiagnosis or overdiagnosis.
- Patient is alert and oriented in all spheres.
- Affect may be labile or irritable.
- Mood is euthymic or anxious.
- Relatedness is very limited, and eye contact is frequently minimal.
- Thought content may be characterized by significant hypervigilance, preoccupations, or hallucinations.
- Patient appears fixed on extraneous or internal stimuli.
- Reasoning and judgment are diminished and insight is poor.
- An overall increased incidence of both suicidal and homicidal ideation in these patients is present.
- Orientation is frequently off.
- Long-term memory is poor.
Dissociative identity disorder is diagnosed more frequently in North America than elsewhere, which suggests cultural issues are associated with diagnosis, whether cases are underdiagnosed outside NA, overdiagnosed inside NA or there is something intrinsic in North American culture that leads people to react to trauma by developing it.
Whatever the case, it would be difficult to diagnose by looking at external symptoms.
Last edited by Alec Bing; March 26th, 2013 at 07:03 AM. Reason: Spelling, removed an extraneous bullet and added last two paragraphs
Wow! Excellent info.
This is a very interesting new development. I wonder what this will mean in terms of treatment for dissociative identity disorder. The last psychology course I took in college was almost 10 years ago and they were still using the Sybil story and film as a primary example of DID. The funny thing is I have joked many times that I seem to have DID and that the only thing stopping me from seriously thinking that is that I am always aware of myself and my behaviors, that I don't act in ways unbeknownst to my primary ID. Also, I don't have different names for each identity. But I assumed that just meant I was moody lol. So maybe this doc is right and there really isn't any DID, just moodswings and deluded excuses for bad behavior. (just a note: I don't make excuses for my bad behavior, when I do something bad its because I freakin want to)
When they stop posting on thescienceforum :P
Thanks, SeaGypsy.
There is a lot of skepticism about DID now, including accusations that it is iatrogenic (I believe the woman who treated Sybil was accused of inducing the symptoms) and that psychiatrists are implanting false memories of abuse, for which there is no evidence, in their patients. Also the idea that it is just an attention-getting disease, similar to women's "hysteria" in the past.
Then again, it is not unknown for doctors to ignore patients and tell them there is nothing wrong with them when it isn't something obvious, like a runny nose or a broken leg.
As I said, I know someone who suffers from derealization (I can assure you he is not faking), which is a recognized form of dissociation and does not encounter the same type of skepticism, and he has found it almost impossible to get doctors to take him seriously.
Here is something from the Skeptic's dictionary multiple personality disorder or dissociative identity disorder - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com
When I had looked up derealization after reading this thread, having never heard the term, it didn't seem anything close to what DID had been believed to be. And I know plenty of people who have told me they have had symptoms of it. Like the feeling of watching themself from the outside and that seeing things like a movie zoom. I have personally experienced that when they had me on the wrong type of medicine for anxiety. I had a doc that kept putting me on antipsychotics when I was supposed to be on an antidepressant. I had symptoms of derealization and DID minus the amesia aspect while on that stuff. Finally I got a different doctor and she put me on the right medication and everything went to normal.
Derealization and DID are different disorders, but they are both forms of dissociative disorders. I don't see why you can't have both at the same time. The person I spoke about who has derealization feels like he is in a dream all the time, like the world isn't real and that at some point he is going to wake up and find himself in a "real" world. You would not be able to tell from his behaviour that he perceives things this way. In his case, it is not drug induced, though it can be.
I also think that a lot of this to do with media sensationalising diseases, so on TV or in a film, someone with a dissociative disorder is going to go into wild, violent rages or behave completely irrationally. In reality, these disorders often appear in childhood, so people learn to cope with them and give the outward appearance of normality, so they can go to school, hold down jobs, etc. I suppose it is similar to a child with a physical handicap, who teaches him or herself how to cope with it and get on with life.
In addition, these disorders can be caused by abuse, and children who are abused are often conditioned to be quiet and still and not show their emotions, because that will get them abused more, which makes them even more likely to seem calm and collected on the outside when they are adults.
What's particularly interesting to me is the pharmacological means of treatment, and how they reveal a possible glimpse of the neuroadaptive measures that have occured physiologically and affect daily life:
Antidepressants ( prefrontal 5ht2a, patricularly)
Benzodiazepines ( GABA-A, amygdala/ hypothalmic pituitary adrenal axis)
Anticonvulsants ( I have no idea, honestly)
And then, more recently, dissociative disorders ( I'm being partial to PTSD related, and dp/dr related dissociation here) have been treated successfully with opiod antagonists. What the hell? I couldn't really rationalize it at first, but apparantly there is a link in the mechanics of analgesia treated by endegenous opiate activity, and the continuous, unnessecary need for trauma relief in dissociated patients. Cool?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...dSBVIEWda4fhdg
This is an explanation based on personal experience: I guess it is a self-protecting mode to a person after he suffered something unbearable.A lot of people have going through it including me.Something happened in the past once made me feel totally hopeless,I could talk ,could still work,but my feeling remained no more ,I was really numb,I couldn't tell the meaning to live on or die. I knew the death,but it could not bring any emotion to me .Having live through it,I feel much better and I know a lot of things should be let go. And personally,I do not like the defination which makes people afraid or confussed.Each one would ,only deep or light.
And I would like to share the thing bringing me out.You have to know, if one is in that state,there is no use telling him"do not lose faith".Cheer becomes useless,even the families.He can lose anything .Most important,to live on ,keep it normal,when there is a chance maybe one can easily die,tell yourself,do not try it.Peace can help to cure heart.
If it because of the harm from some one deliberately,one must find help.
This is an explanation based on personal experience: I guess it is a self-protecting mode to a person after he suffered something unbearable.A lot of people have going through it including me.Something happened in the past once made me feel totally hopeless,I could talk ,could still work,but my feeling remained no more ,I was really numb,I couldn't tell the meaning to live on or die. I knew the death,but it could not bring any emotion to me .Having live through it,I feel much better and I know a lot of things should be let go. And personally,I do not like the defination which makes people afraid or confussed.Each one would ,only deep or light.<br>And I would like to share the thing bringing me out.You have to know, if one is in that state,there is no use telling him"do not lose faith".Cheer becomes useless,even the families.He can lose anything .Most important,to live on ,keep it normal,when there is a chance maybe one can easily die,tell yourself,do not try it.Peace can help to cure heart.<br>If it because of the harm from some one deliberately,one must find help.
Are the drugs actually getting rid of the dissociation or are they just making the patient calmer and happier so they aren't bothered as much about memory loss, inability to concentrate, being thought of as "crazy", etc? (Sorry, it is almost midnight here and I am too tired to read the full article.)
During the really physically painful moments I remember, I dissociated nearly completely. If they were slightly less painful, they would have been worse. (Keep in mind that this was a very long time ago/minor/solved.) Maybe that's why I self harmed. Making something worse helped distract me, and made it seem less real. However, the more I dissociated and self harmed, the more numb I got and the more I dissociated.
If I was dissociating, I couldn't tell. I also starting associating other things, e.g. associating two things which had nothing in common. For example, I associated walking up certain stairs with being sad, and was generally ocd about many other specific things. I guess dissociating and associating aren't opposites here, because the first is like putting yourself in 3rd person, and the second is like superstition. Both are distraction methods, and an attempt to better explain what is happening.
Apparently, there is some evidence that the opiod antagonists are the closest pharmaceutical that appears to target trauma-based neurological adaptive mechanics. That's probably the boldest statement I've ever made.
Are the drugs actually getting rid of the dissociation or are they just making the patient calmer and happier so they aren't bothered as much about memory loss, inability to concentrate, being thought of as "crazy", etc? (Sorry, it is almost midnight here and I am too tired to read the full article.)
The antidepressants could make a similar argument, but their action and activity are pretty mysterious and lack true pharmacological understanding. Benzos are almost certainly successful simply due to the GABA A reduction of anxiety.
But, opiods and their antagonists do get you high, that is definitely something to consider with these results.
Also noteworthy is the particular antidepressant that shows effectiveness with dissociation is clomipramine ( the chlorinated cousin of the first antidepressant synthesized, imipramine) has a specific affinity for 5ht2a (serotonin) receptor sites. That particular receptor is highly associated with schizophrenia, neurosis, psychedelics, and cannabis. Cannabis is particularly thought-provoking because it triggers chronic dp/dr in a massive number of sufferers, as a foremost catalyst.
hi, there...are...many...ways...to...telll
...however...once...you...begin...to...see
...the...diference...between...dissociation
...and...its...opposite...when...a...person
...says...what...they...dont...want...they...
are...most...likely...dissociated...and...when
...they...express...what...they...want...this...
is...the...other!
peace&love...vern
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