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Thread: Is it possible to be insane but have logical thinking?

  1. #1 Is it possible to be insane but have logical thinking? 
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    There is a fine line between paranoia and logic, paranoid insanity driving you mad. Control is just a logical step, controlling those thought's.

    Is it possible to be insane and control your thoughts with logic?


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    Possible? Sure, why not. Easy? No.


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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    John Nash, the mathematician, seems to have been pretty logical despite having schizophrenia(?).

    Of course, "insane" is not a very meaningful term. There are some mental disorders that would make being logical extremely unlikely, such as psychosis or Thought disorder. On the other hand, some mental problems may have little effect on logical thought.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theorist View Post
    There is a fine line between paranoia and logic
    Huh?
    How can there be?
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    Paranoia and logic? Pretty easy really.

    If you start with the preconditions for a logical progression of thought, you can readily mislead yourself through a technically logical process to a conclusion more paranoid than your original premises.

    The big issue is the cloud of meanings and implications embodied in the "if" statement at the outset of your If..... then ..... steps.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    I agree you could end up paranoid through a process of logic, but to declare that there's a "fine line" between them sort of supposes that each is the same "axis", neh?
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    I think logic is being used in two different senses in the OP. One is "LOGIC" in the abstract, plot it with formal notation type stuff. The other is logic in the logical, rational opinion forming sense.

    The first follows an almost inexorable path to certain conclusions. The rational thinking process checks back on itself all the time - is this sensible? Or true? Or possible?

    In the usual rational process you cannot possibly believe that you need a rabbit's foot or a certain kind of hat to protect yourself from outside influences. A deeply paranoid person can assemble a series of superficially logical explanatory steps and arrive at patently false conclusions by the simple expedient of not checking at any point whether any of the "supporting" statements are obviously untrue and should be abandoned. At which point the fundamental illogicality reveals itself. A genuinely logical process, even of the abstract philosophical kind, has no option but to abandon any choice which doesn't exist in the real world (or in the theoretical scenario created for the purpose of the exercise). Paranoid ideation will drive a person to cling to clearly untrue or unrealistic 'facts'.

    Which is where "control" comes in. Schizophrenics divide quite readily into those who can and those who can't gain any insight into the unreality of their voices and whether they should respond to them. Depressives likewise can also be split into those who can and those who can't see depressive ideation as something they can refuse to act on even if they can't 'feel' any better. I'd not be surprised if sufferers of paranoia might not also split into those who can 'understand' that these ideas are not real even if they can't stop themselves from having the thoughts and those who cannot resist the impulses of their strange fears.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Paranoia and logic? Pretty easy really.

    If you start with the preconditions for a logical progression of thought, you can readily mislead yourself through a technically logical process to a conclusion more paranoid than your original premises.

    The big issue is the cloud of meanings and implications embodied in the "if" statement at the outset of your If..... then ..... steps.
    Thank you for your post, what about if you start with preconceptions of paranoid thoughts, but then control those thought's with logic. ?

    Are they paranoid thoughts , or is that just rational thinking? .

    Dywyddyr, normally paranoia in my opinion, consists of a several points and as a variation of thought, thoughts of ,what if and so on. All these thoughts generally have no supporting evidence, example - he/she is out to get me.

    There is no evidence to state for example, that a person is out to get you, a person may not like you, but there is no evidence to state that they are coming for you.
    Paranoia becomes a supposition as such.

    Where as , lets say your spouse, started acting and behaving differently, they started to go out more and dress up as they would not do normally.

    Are you paranoid to think your spouse is having an affair?, there is no evidence ,so logic says this can not be, but there is evidence of a change in behaviour.

    Hence my expression , there is a fine line between paranoia and logic.

    And so you know, my spouse if faithful.

    A fine example of slight paranoia is forum dedicated members versus trolls. Logic says, a person making silly questions, not getting the grasp of conceptions, seeming the ability not to learn, is a troll.

    So sometimes that logic itself is paranoia.

    So therefore there is a fine line.

    There is madness like you say that can have no logic, but what if the logic controls that madness, before you get into that no logic state?

    Schizophrenia, is this a multi personality disorder?, I never was sure what it meant.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Ah, thanks.

    Depressives likewise can also be split into those who can and those who can't see depressive ideation as something they can refuse to act on even if they can't 'feel' any better.
    I can relate, most definitely, to that. It took a lot of talking/ work by others to switch from one stance to another.
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    Schizophrenia, is this a multi personality disorder?, I never was sure what it meant.
    No it's not. Schizophrenia affects 1% of the population, pretty well worldwide. Dissociative identity disorder is very rare, much disputed in psychiatric circles and generally attributed to childhood trauma - but that's still under review.

    Schizophrenia is, to put it roughly, disorganised, distorted thinking usually accompanied by hallucinations or delusions. It can vary significantly in severity and therapies are not reliably wonderful. You can hold down a job if it's manageable, but it usually has a major impact on every aspect of life, including life itself. (Much higher suicide rate, poor health maintenance, homelessness all make life expectancy lower.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Schizophrenia, is this a multi personality disorder?, I never was sure what it meant.
    No it's not. Schizophrenia affects 1% of the population, pretty well worldwide. Dissociative identity disorder is very rare, much disputed in psychiatric circles and generally attributed to childhood trauma - but that's still under review.

    Schizophrenia is, to put it roughly, disorganised, distorted thinking usually accompanied by hallucinations or delusions. It can vary significantly in severity and therapies are not reliably wonderful. You can hold down a job if it's manageable, but it usually has a major impact on every aspect of life, including life itself. (Much higher suicide rate, poor health maintenance, homelessness all make life expectancy lower.)
    Thank you for your answer, I now know what it means. So could a person control Schizophrenia with logical thinking,
    or is the distorted thought more deeper than logic ?
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theorist View Post
    So could a person control Schizophrenia with logical thinking, or is the distorted thought more deeper than logic ?
    Er,
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    It can vary significantly in severity and therapies are not reliably wonderful. You can hold down a job if it's manageable, but it usually has a major impact on every aspect of life, including life itself.
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    No, they can't control it. The medications can cut down the intensity and / or the amount of weird thinking.

    But, right across the spectrum of severity, some people can gain enough insight into their condition that they can recognise that the voices in their head are not real at the time they're hearing them. Most schizophrenia sufferers can recognise, in retrospect, that the voices were misleading them, but many are unable to resist the urge to respond to them or do what they say at the time. A couple of my friends had children who were schizophrenic - the lack of insight was the biggest problem. No matter how logical or apparently sensible they can be when talking about what has happened in the past, if they lack that insight, or link to reality, or whatever you want to call it, the next time the voices tell them to catch a train to a city hundreds of kms away, they'll go.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Nice clarification.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Schizophrenia, is this a multi personality disorder?, I never was sure what it meant.
    No it's not. Schizophrenia affects 1% of the population, pretty well worldwide. Dissociative identity disorder is very rare, much disputed in psychiatric circles and generally attributed to childhood trauma - but that's still under review.

    Schizophrenia is, to put it roughly, disorganised, distorted thinking usually accompanied by hallucinations or delusions. It can vary significantly in severity and therapies are not reliably wonderful. You can hold down a job if it's manageable, but it usually has a major impact on every aspect of life, including life itself. (Much higher suicide rate, poor health maintenance, homelessness all make life expectancy lower.)
    Thank you, can you please explain the meaning of voices in your head?, I for example, when making a post or thinking, tend to talk to myself in my head as I am thinking.
    I am even talking my thoughts now as I write, writing what my head is thinking to write. Is this normal voices, should i have any sort of voices like this?, it is my own voice I hear.

    I logically see this as thinking out un-aloud, if that is even a word.
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    I say you can be both, because Jeffery Dahmer was insane, and also calculating.
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    Thank you, can you please explain the meaning of voices in your head?
    Sometimes they're not even in the head. It's not uncommon to see people suffering from these conditions talking to invisible people on a train or in the street. And if you see one of those homeless people muttering to themselves - don't be so sure it's to themselves. Quite often they're talking back to "the voice" - usually they're trying to get it to go away.

    It hadn't occurred to me until someone said it quite recently, maybe on a documentary I was watching. How would you like it if you had people talking at you incessantly all day every day. You can't close the door on them, you can't lock yourself in the bathroom to get away from them, you can't walk out of the house and leave them to it as you might if someone at home was getting on your wick. It's absolutely relentless. Even if you weren't mad in the first place, they'd drive you mad.

    It is possible for people other than schizophrenics to have this kind of hallucination. My mum did once. Unsurprisingly, she was a bit upset about this. Eventually her doctor put her onto someone and she had to fill out a questionnaire. On the first page she ticked the yes box for hearing a voice inside your head. When she got to the bottom of the second page she had to go back and change it - because the voice had been outside her head - almost like someone else was there, so she ticked that box instead. The treatment? A vitamin. Can't remember which one, one of the B family anyway. I know others have had such things when they're affected by anaesthetics or delirious with a fever. But for them, of course, the problem goes away pretty quickly, they don't have to live their whole lives with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    My mum did once. Unsurprisingly, she was a bit upset about this. Eventually her doctor put her onto someone and she had to fill out a questionnaire. On the first page she ticked the yes box for hearing a voice inside your head. When she got to the bottom of the second page she had to go back and change it - because the voice had been outside her head - almost like someone else was there, so she ticked that box instead.
    This is something that caught my interest, and I'm tempted to start a thread about it, but for now I'll just ask a quick question here.

    I suppose when I speak with myself in my mind, that would be considered "voices" in my head; but how does voices that is perceived to be outside our heads work? For now, I am only able to imagine it to be a different aspect of the mind or personality to at work, one that is distinctly separate from our own persona; talking to us, telling us to do stuff, places to go, etc. Do you have any insight, or perhaps references of studies conducted to determine if these external voices are actually a different aspect of the personalty that the afflicted weren't able to repress or suppress?
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    I'm manic, bipolar and depressed but not insane, I don't think at least. Everyone can suffer from mental problems and get help from professionals when it happens. But medications and those professionals can only do so much to help you cope with your mental problems the rest is up to you to try and find ways to help yourself, if possible, which makes life easier but not always the best way to live. After years of thearpy, I still go, I've come to realize that there are certain things I can do, mentally and physically, that will help me adjust to my bouts with bipolar, depression and manic disorders. So you can survive albeit not very "normally" as others that don't have these problems do but as best one can under the circumstances.
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    This may have already been said, but my eyes are irritated with allergies and I am having trouble going through the posts, but insanity is a relative term. What may be considered insane in one culture is perfectly normal in another. Normal is also a relative term. So insanity is often a label applied to anyone with a starkly different point of view than those of the cultural majority the individual belongs to. And Normal is applied to people who fit better into the cookie cutter patterns of behavior among their major social group.

    For instance, Christians would likely consider Jim Jones to be insane on many levels. But among his followers he was considered to be perfectly rational. I have been called insane because I don't believe in absolute morality. But among people who agree with me, I am perfectly sane and reached the conclusion logically.

    So considering it is all a matter of perspective. a person can be normal or insane depending on the company they keep.


    I need to clarify. I am not suggesting that there is no real condition of mental illness. But psychiatrists don't usually use the term "insane". It is a term more commonly used by people with little understanding of psychology. So its more commonly used to describe abnormal behavior or personality traits as perceived by laymen, not psychologists. I think they tend to only use the term in criminal court cases because jurors tend to accept the term "insane" better than more specific names of genuine mental illnesses.

    Real mental illness is more than just an observation and comparison of behavior. Genuine mental illness can be detected with medical tests (measurements of brain chemicals, MRIs showing where brain activity is taking place, and by doing graphing of the structure of the brain itself (sometimes abnormal size, shape, or surface texture can indicate abnormalities associated with and causing behavioral abnormalities)
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    Quote Originally Posted by theorist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Paranoia and logic? Pretty easy really.

    If you start with the preconditions for a logical progression of thought, you can readily mislead yourself through a technically logical process to a conclusion more paranoid than your original premises.

    The big issue is the cloud of meanings and implications embodied in the "if" statement at the outset of your If..... then ..... steps.


    Thank you for your post, what about if you start with preconceptions of paranoid thoughts, but then control those thought's with logic. ?

    Are they paranoid thoughts , or is that just rational thinking? .

    Dywyddyr, normally paranoia in my opinion, consists of a several points and as a variation of thought, thoughts of ,what if and so on. All these thoughts generally have no supporting evidence, example - he/she is out to get me.

    There is no evidence to state for example, that a person is out to get you, a person may not like you, but there is no evidence to state that they are coming for you.
    Paranoia becomes a supposition as such.

    Where as , lets say your spouse, started acting and behaving differently, they started to go out more and dress up as they would not do normally.

    Are you paranoid to think your spouse is having an affair?, there is no evidence ,so logic says this can not be, but there is evidence of a change in behaviour.

    Hence my expression , there is a fine line between paranoia and logic.

    And so you know, my spouse if faithful.

    A fine example of slight paranoia is forum dedicated members versus trolls. Logic says, a person making silly questions, not getting the grasp of conceptions, seeming the ability not to learn, is a troll.

    So sometimes that logic itself is paranoia.

    So therefore there is a fine line.

    There is madness like you say that can have no logic, but what if the logic controls that madness, before you get into that no logic state?

    Schizophrenia, is this a multi personality disorder?, I never was sure what it meant.


    Every human being experiences paranoia, neurosis, anxiety, rage, hallucinations, delusions, etc. We all do. It gets labelled as a mental illness when we experience these things more-so than the average human and/or lack the self awareness to recognize when we are experiencing these things and lacking the coping skills to deal with it effectively so that it does not become detrimental to our ability to function normally to care for ourselves, maintain our own safety, and assimilate socially.

    When an individual is suspicious of their spouse's change in behavior that certainly is paranoia but not all paranoia is considered to be a malfunction. Paranoia is a necessary survival trait that we possess. But like with anything, too much of a good thing can make that good thing not so good anymore. Paranoia, in normal doses, is basically the result of being able to recognize patterns and predict outcomes and sometimes causation. This is obviously a good thing to have. It becomes a problem when the person lacks the clarity of mind to know when an exception to the pattern presents itself indicating that the initial prediction has a lessor likelihood of coming to fruition.

    So imagine its middle of summer and 90 degrees F outside. You are a retail clerk in a upscale clothing store. A female customer comes in. She appears to be about 16 and has dark circles under her eyes and is very thin. They are dressed in what appears to be layers. Wearing over-sized sweaters and they are being very quiet and avoiding eye contact with anyone. Tending to move away from other customers and retail associates.

    There could be any number of patters being displayed here. I will focus on two.

    Now as a retail sales associate, your manager tells you to do your best to prevent shop lifting. Be on the look out of anyone that looks like they are out of place. Meaning anyone who may not likely be able to afford the merchandise. This could be minors, people wearing old tatty clothing, or people who are wearing baggy unseasonable clothing that would provide easy hiding places such as over sized jackets, or sweaters or carrying very large handbags. Especially pay attention to anyone who seems to be avoiding the eyes of employees or other customers. This is a known behavior pattern of shoplifters.

    So the retail associate has these instructions and upon observing the young girl who entered, she decides the girl seems suspicious and calls security to have her checked out.

    Is the retail associate being paranoid? Well most people decide if someone is paranoid based on whether or not the suspicions turned out to be substantiated. But the reality is, that until the reality is determined, then it is paranoia but it is justified.

    The customer is displaying all the behavior patterns of a shop lifter. In addition to that she has dark circles under her eyes and is very thin which could indicate drug use and drug users often steal to support their habit.

    But do these patterns fit any other possible scenarios?

    Yes. In this case, the girl is anorexic. She dresses in over sized clothing to hide how thin she is. She has dark circles under her eyes because she is in poor health. She is avoiding eye contact because she has low self esteem and doesn't want to be approached. She feels fat and is unsure if she should be buying anything because no matter what she wears she will still be ugly in her own eyes.

    Now does it seem like the retail associate was paranoid? Perspectives make a huge difference as to how the term paranoid is applied. But in reality, what you experience when you are justifiably suspicious of something due to observing a known pattern of behavior is exactly the same experience you have when you believe you have observed a pattern that indicates or predicts something horrible.

    The difference is whether or not hte person can recognize the exceptions to the patterns or if they consistently find a way to rationalize ignoring the exceptions.
    Last edited by seagypsy; February 8th, 2013 at 10:18 AM.
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    I suppose when I speak with myself in my mind, that would be considered "voices" in my head; but how does voices that is perceived to be outside our heads work?
    Think of it as straightforward failure of perception. Instead of not hearing or seeing things that are there, the person hears or sees things that aren't there. If you can't get it that way, think of a particularly vivid dream where you think you're interacting with other people just as you do in real life - but in fact you're awake but having a dream-like event or delirium-without-the-fever sensation.

    Outside your head? Just as though someone real is speaking to you but unseen - we do this all the time when we speak to someone when we're not looking at them. We know they're there because they were there the last time we looked and they're still there when we look again. Same thing goes for people who aren't looking - we're perfectly capable of hearing someone speaking to us from behind or beside us even if we didn't perceive their approach. Apparently it's exactly like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Think of it as straightforward failure of perception. Instead of not hearing or seeing things that are there, the person hears or sees things that aren't there. If you can't get it that way, think of a particularly vivid dream where you think you're interacting with other people just as you do in real life - but in fact you're awake but having a dream-like event or delirium-without-the-fever sensation.

    Outside your head? Just as though someone real is speaking to you but unseen - we do this all the time when we speak to someone when we're not looking at them. We know they're there because they were there the last time we looked and they're still there when we look again. Same thing goes for people who aren't looking - we're perfectly capable of hearing someone speaking to us from behind or beside us even if we didn't perceive their approach. Apparently it's exactly like that.
    So, a milder form would be that there is a lapse in the brains ability to occasionally identify where these voices come from; being unable to identify that these voices aren't from an external source. And a more serious form would be that there is a failure in the brains ability to frequently identify that they are from an external source; that they aren't part of the same persona that is "us". Interesting.

    In a way, I imagine it to be something similar to this. I have a grandma who passed away some decades ago, and she had always made it a point to remind me to wash my hands before and after a meal. Now that she's no longer with us, I would tend to "miss" her loving nagging, and when I do not wash my hands, my mind replays what she would have nagged about even if she isn't here, and I would "do it" as though she was right there nagging at me. I can identify this simulated personality as being an aspect of my memory of her saying things that she would have if she were still alive. Some one who may not be able to do this might identify the "voices" as an entity that is really there; a distinct aspect of their memory of a personality that they weren't able to identify that their minds simulated, may have trouble in making the distinction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Think of it as straightforward failure of perception. Instead of not hearing or seeing things that are there, the person hears or sees things that aren't there. If you can't get it that way, think of a particularly vivid dream where you think you're interacting with other people just as you do in real life - but in fact you're awake but having a dream-like event or delirium-without-the-fever sensation.

    Outside your head? Just as though someone real is speaking to you but unseen - we do this all the time when we speak to someone when we're not looking at them. We know they're there because they were there the last time we looked and they're still there when we look again. Same thing goes for people who aren't looking - we're perfectly capable of hearing someone speaking to us from behind or beside us even if we didn't perceive their approach. Apparently it's exactly like that.
    So, a milder form would be that there is a lapse in the brains ability to occasionally identify where these voices come from; being unable to identify that these voices aren't from an external source. And a more serious form would be that there is a failure in the brains ability to frequently identify that they are from an external source; that they aren't part of the same persona that is "us". Interesting.

    In a way, I imagine it to be something similar to this. I have a grandma who passed away some decades ago, and she had always made it a point to remind me to wash my hands before and after a meal. Now that she's no longer with us, I would tend to "miss" her loving nagging, and when I do not wash my hands, my mind replays what she would have nagged about even if she isn't here, and I would "do it" as though she was right there nagging at me. I can identify this simulated personality as being an aspect of my memory of her saying things that she would have if she were still alive. Some one who may not be able to do this might identify the "voices" as an entity that is really there; a distinct aspect of their memory of a personality that they weren't able to identify that their minds simulated, may have trouble in making the distinction.
    That sounds right to me. Ever have a moment when you heard someone say your name or call out to you but turned around and no one was there? but it doesn't persist. And rarely ever happens. This would be the milder form. But if you constantly hear people and possibly even see people that no one else sees, then this would be called clinical schizophrenia.

    Though I wouldn't consider remembering words that had been repeated to you in the past to an example of this.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by theorist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Paranoia and logic? Pretty easy really.

    If you start with the preconditions for a logical progression of thought, you can readily mislead yourself through a technically logical process to a conclusion more paranoid than your original premises.

    The big issue is the cloud of meanings and implications embodied in the "if" statement at the outset of your If..... then ..... steps.


    Thank you for your post, what about if you start with preconceptions of paranoid thoughts, but then control those thought's with logic. ?

    Are they paranoid thoughts , or is that just rational thinking? .

    Dywyddyr, normally paranoia in my opinion, consists of a several points and as a variation of thought, thoughts of ,what if and so on. All these thoughts generally have no supporting evidence, example - he/she is out to get me.

    There is no evidence to state for example, that a person is out to get you, a person may not like you, but there is no evidence to state that they are coming for you.
    Paranoia becomes a supposition as such.

    Where as , lets say your spouse, started acting and behaving differently, they started to go out more and dress up as they would not do normally.

    Are you paranoid to think your spouse is having an affair?, there is no evidence ,so logic says this can not be, but there is evidence of a change in behaviour.

    Hence my expression , there is a fine line between paranoia and logic.

    And so you know, my spouse if faithful.

    A fine example of slight paranoia is forum dedicated members versus trolls. Logic says, a person making silly questions, not getting the grasp of conceptions, seeming the ability not to learn, is a troll.

    So sometimes that logic itself is paranoia.

    So therefore there is a fine line.

    There is madness like you say that can have no logic, but what if the logic controls that madness, before you get into that no logic state?

    Schizophrenia, is this a multi personality disorder?, I never was sure what it meant.


    Every human being experiences paranoia, neurosis, anxiety, rage, hallucinations, delusions, etc. We all do. It gets labelled as a mental illness when we experience these things more-so than the average human and/or lack the self awareness to recognize when we are experiencing these things and lacking the coping skills to deal with it effectively so that it does not become detrimental to our ability to function normally to care for ourselves, maintain our own safety, and assimilate socially.

    When an individual is suspicious of their spouse's change in behavior that certainly is paranoia but not all paranoia is considered to be a malfunction. Paranoia is a necessary survival trait that we possess. But like with anything, too much of a good thing can make that good thing not so good anymore. Paranoia, in normal doses, is basically the result of being able to recognize patterns and predict outcomes and sometimes causation. This is obviously a good thing to have. It becomes a problem when the person lacks the clarity of mind to know when an exception to the pattern presents itself indicating that the initial prediction has a lessor likelihood of coming to fruition.

    So imagine its middle of summer and 90 degrees F outside. You are a retail clerk in a upscale clothing store. A female customer comes in. She appears to be about 16 and has dark circles under her eyes and is very thin. They are dressed in what appears to be layers. Wearing over-sized sweaters and they are being very quiet and avoiding eye contact with anyone. Tending to move away from other customers and retail associates.

    There could be any number of patters being displayed here. I will focus on two.

    Now as a retail sales associate, your manager tells you to do your best to prevent shop lifting. Be on the look out of anyone that looks like they are out of place. Meaning anyone who may not likely be able to afford the merchandise. This could be minors, people wearing old tatty clothing, or people who are wearing baggy unseasonable clothing that would provide easy hiding places such as over sized jackets, or sweaters or carrying very large handbags. Especially pay attention to anyone who seems to be avoiding the eyes of employees or other customers. This is a known behavior pattern of shoplifters.

    So the retail associate has these instructions and upon observing the young girl who entered, she decides the girl seems suspicious and calls security to have her checked out.

    Is the retail associate being paranoid? Well most people decide if someone is paranoid based on whether or not the suspicions turned out to be substantiated. But the reality is, that until the reality is determined, then it is paranoia but it is justified.

    The customer is displaying all the behavior patterns of a shop lifter. In addition to that she has dark circles under her eyes and is very thin which could indicate drug use and drug users often steal to support their habit.

    But do these patterns fit any other possible scenarios?

    Yes. In this case, the girl is anorexic. She dresses in over sized clothing to hide how thin she is. She has dark circles under her eyes because she is in poor health. She is avoiding eye contact because she has low self esteem and doesn't want to be approached. She feels fat and is unsure if she should be buying anything because no matter what she wears she will still be ugly in her own eyes.

    Now does it seem like the retail associate was paranoid? Perspectives make a huge difference as to how the term paranoid is applied. But in reality, what you experience when you are justifiably suspicious of something due to observing a known pattern of behavior is exactly the same experience you have when you believe you have observed a pattern that indicates or predicts something horrible.

    The difference is whether or not hte person can recognize the exceptions to the patterns or if they consistently find a way to rationalize ignoring the exceptions.
    Great post and well put, strange really , you can see the expression in your post of don't judge a book by it's cover. And most people know this expression, but still overlook the expression.
    Myself personally , I may see the anorexic girl an not a drug user or shoplifter, If I was security I would view all customers in the same way, as any person could be a criminal , from all walks of life.
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    When persons experience "voices" in a pathological sense what they "hear" is usually something that they think is coming from outside themselves. It is qualatativly different for "self talk".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anakim View Post
    I say you can be both, because Jeffery Dahmer was insane, and also calculating.
    Serial killers, possibly both mad and smart.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Well I really don't think that because you are "insane" means you don't be have to be logical.. I've seen many smart people who acquired mental illnesses or problem such as Josh Nash and still have great logical abilities.. It really don't have to effect your logic although there's a thin line between pure genius and insanity.. There are many great scientists who ended their lives by their own hands such as Ludwig Boltzmann, Hans Berger and many others..

    Although, depression comes as a price of becoming a "genius".. Einstein himself had his own psychiatric therapist whose photo is over the internet.. Some say that highly intellectual or genius people think about many things around them most of them are depressing or sad things thus making them more depressed..

    A photo taken of Einstein's office mere hours after his death show many books scrambled over his disk and his office.. While I have been looking on Einstein's videos on the Internet, especially YouTube.. From what I've seen.. Einstein was a simple man rather than a genius.. I don't believe he really wanted all the fame and what came along with it..

    From what I believe.. A high quantity of highly intellectual people have their own "dark side".. Whether it's depression or over-thinking.. Everything comes with a price.

    While talking about serial killers.. I'm actually quite fascinated by them.. While some describe them as mad or mentally ill.. I find them very smart while some of their cases back in the 1800's and 1900's and some in the 2000's still remain unsolved.. The paths which some take in order to reach their victim is quite astonishing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hassnhadi View Post
    Well I really don't think that because you are "insane" means you don't be have to be logical.. I've seen many smart people who acquired mental illnesses or problem such as Josh Nash and still have great logical abilities.. It really don't have to effect your logic although there's a thin line between pure genius and insanity.. There are many great scientists who ended their lives by their own hands such as Ludwig Boltzmann, Hans Berger and many others..

    Although, depression comes as a price of becoming a "genius".. Einstein himself had his own psychiatric therapist whose photo is over the internet.. Some say that highly intellectual or genius people think about many things around them most of them are depressing or sad things thus making them more depressed..

    A photo taken of Einstein's office mere hours after his death show many books scrambled over his disk and his office.. While I have been looking on Einstein's videos on the Internet, especially YouTube.. From what I've seen.. Einstein was a simple man rather than a genius.. I don't believe he really wanted all the fame and what came along with it..

    From what I believe.. A high quantity of highly intellectual people have their own "dark side".. Whether it's depression or over-thinking.. Everything comes with a price.

    While talking about serial killers.. I'm actually quite fascinated by them.. While some describe them as mad or mentally ill.. I find them very smart while some of their cases back in the 1800's and 1900's and some in the 2000's still remain unsolved.. The paths which some take in order to reach their victim is quite astonishing.
    Thank you for your post, I often think about everything that's depressing and all that exists. Some people in the past have referred to me as a genius lol.
    I could say that I am a simple man with very little needs, and far class myself from been a genius.

    Serial killers, insane, maybe, or maybe they just want a state of existence. Maybe they just want a sense of been.

    Who are we, we are no one, we only exist if we are known to the world. We shall die with no existence, no one knows our name.
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    I never trust anyone that calls me a genius. I figure they are trying to either flatter me, a means of manipulation, or they have really poor judgement. Either way, spells trouble.

    I meant to try and explain earlier that "insane" is more of a legal term than a term of psychiatric medicine. It is also pretty relative. What we determine to be "insane" in one culture would be considered quite sane in another. Cultural conditioning plays a huge role in our perceptions of sanity. Sane I guess, would be one's strong ability to adapt to cultural norms with little to no emotional distress.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I never trust anyone that calls me a genius. I figure they are trying to either flatter me, a means of manipulation, or they have really poor judgement. Either way, spells trouble.

    I meant to try and explain earlier that "insane" is more of a legal term than a term of psychiatric medicine. It is also pretty relative. What we determine to be "insane" in one culture would be considered quite sane in another. Cultural conditioning plays a huge role in our perceptions of sanity. Sane I guess, would be one's strong ability to adapt to cultural norms with little to no emotional distress.

    I agree, one person calls you a genius and that doe's not make a person a genius, I consider this is often to a persons own IQ, and to that person with less understanding, a simple invention like a tooth brush , they could deem as genius.

    Insane, yes I could see that as been a relative term, for example- a person goes work 40 hrs a week, earns x amount for 50 years of his/her life.

    Another person doe's not work, stays at home and lives off benefits. However , the second person who stays at home, although on a budget of activities, conserves their body and energy and as time to live their short lives.
    Where as the worker, uses 50 years of their lives up been a robot to society...

    So who do you consider insane.....

    The person who wants to live a life. or the person who stereotypical follows society and the rules.

    Majority deems the thinking process on anything.
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