Notices
Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Rules of Suicide are Changing

  1. #1 Rules of Suicide are Changing 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    4,807
    I'm not trying to make light of suicide with this thread in case some are offended by what I have to say.

    I'm old enough to remember thinking about suicide as a very private thing. Get your stuff in order, write a note explaining and then kill yourself in private seemed to be the way people offed themselves not too long ago. Back when I was growing up suicide gave an impression that it was a very personal thing, not meant to be outlandish or newspaper headline material.

    I'm not sure if its only me who thinks this way but doesn't it look like suicides are becoming something akin to public executions. Suicide victims are more likely today to take somebody with them for whatever the cause or reason. Flying planes into buildings, shooting school kids, blowing yourself up in a crowded street, mass suicides, going postal, all make headlines. Suicide has gone public big time. Its showtime!

    Is it because people are angry and are blaming society for their impending demise? Can't anyone afford counselling or a shrink, are these people overworked? Why the sudden interest in taking innocent lives before putting the gun to your own head?

    Are things like the Amish school shootings really about murder or just a planned revenge suicide? Or is it for fame?


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    320
    hitler wasnt private. the monks (?) that burned themselves alive wasnt private. romeo and juliet wasnt private. i dont think suicide was ever private like u describe


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    2,051
    Hitler shot himself in the basement of a bunker..that's pretty private. The monks you are talking about killed themselves in protest to draw attention to what they felt was an unjust war, not for the normal (?) reasons of depression. Romeo and Juliet were fictional characters, and did not make a public event of their deaths.
    I think what zin is talking about was in earlier generations, their was a heavy stigma that was associated with suicide (at least in some cultures). Most people didn't know about clinical depression, and didn't consider it a disease. An entire family would be shamed by it. So people who decided to take their own lives would try to be discreet, to protect their family's name, and not to be known as "weak willed".
    Today we know more about chemical changes in the brain, and consider suicidal thoughts as a symtom of a medical condition, not a character flaw. So the stigma is not as strong. Then you add a world-wide media that lets us know about events that happen all of the world in an instant (if it "bleeds" it "leads") which may encourage some people to copy other events or use the coverage to "go out in a bang". I guess some people feel the need to have their "15 minutes of fame" even if it's their last 15.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Guest
    Curiosly I don't think the 9/11 terrorists were out to commit suicide. They were out to commit mass murder. Their own deaths were a consequence of their deliberate actions that day, although that's a pretty good [western] definition of suicide, they believed they would live on in heaven.
    I don't [personally] class them as having commited suicide even though they did - oh buffer, my head hurts.... er maybey suicide was not their primary aim... help...



    Quote Originally Posted by Mcguyver1968
    "Hitler shot himself in the basement"
    LMAO

    You are wrong, it was the other end of his body he shot.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    2,051
    LOL..good one Billco. I'm sure a lot of GI's would have liked to kick his "basement"

    I think you're right to distinguish between having the willingness to give your life for your cause (i.e. 9/11 terrorists, kamakze pilots, suicide bombers, crazed cult members) and those who off themselves because they are mentally ill and can't stand the thought of living. Then you have those who commit horrific crimes and commit suicide to punish themselves, or avoid going to prison.

    Sometimes I wish we could go back to some of those "old fashioned" values.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
    LOL..good one Billco. I'm sure a lot of GI's would have liked to kick his "basement"

    I think you're right to distinguish between having the willingness to give your life for your cause (i.e. 9/11 terrorists, kamakze pilots, suicide bombers, crazed cult members) and those who off themselves because they are mentally ill and can't stand the thought of living. Then you have those who commit horrific crimes and commit suicide to punish themselves, or avoid going to prison.

    Sometimes I wish we could go back to some of those "old fashioned" values.
    And I think there's an element of wanting your name to go down in history as well, at least for some.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7 Re: Rules of Suicide are Changing 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,355
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    I'm not trying to make light of suicide with this thread in case some are offended by what I have to say.

    I'm old enough to remember thinking about suicide as a very private thing. Get your stuff in order, write a note explaining and then kill yourself in private seemed to be the way people offed themselves not too long ago. Back when I was growing up suicide gave an impression that it was a very personal thing, not meant to be outlandish or newspaper headline material.

    I'm not sure if its only me who thinks this way but doesn't it look like suicides are becoming something akin to public executions. Suicide victims are more likely today to take somebody with them for whatever the cause or reason. Flying planes into buildings, shooting school kids, blowing yourself up in a crowded street, mass suicides, going postal, all make headlines. Suicide has gone public big time. Its showtime!

    Is it because people are angry and are blaming society for their impending demise? Can't anyone afford counselling or a shrink, are these people overworked? Why the sudden interest in taking innocent lives before putting the gun to your own head?

    Are things like the Amish school shootings really about murder or just a planned revenge suicide? Or is it for fame?
    there also the death by cop suicide that comes up now and again in the news too
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    2,051
    Good point CC, I think that goes back to the old stigma. They believe that being shot by a cop is "more honorable" than doing it yourself...or they just lack the guts.


    Just wondering CC, how did people from your prehistoric time commit suicide? throw themselves in front of a charging wooly mammoth? :wink: (j/k)
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,355
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
    Good point CC, I think that goes back to the old stigma. They believe that being shot by a cop is "more honorable" than doing it yourself...or they just lack the guts.


    Just wondering CC, how did people from your prehistoric time commit suicide? throw themselves in front of a charging wooly mammoth? :wink: (j/k)


    none, we had no modern stress then
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Guest
    Suicide in CC's time was down to driving animals off the cliff, leting them do it for you, that's why he subconscioulsy raised the cop issue... :wink:
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,355
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Suicide in CC's time was down to driving animals off the cliff, leting them do it for you, that's why he subconscioulsy raised the cop issue... :wink:

    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    4,807
    Quote Originally Posted by SealOtter
    i dont think suicide was ever private like u describe
    Then you're making me sound like a genius. I never heard of suicides as a kid, they were always hushed up or we were lied to. You must represent the new generation.

    Anyway all I'm suggesting with this thread is that it seems to have become fashionable to commit suicide by taking innocent lives with you before doing yourself in. Maybe this is a CNN induced conclusion but like I said I never heard about suicides when I was growing up, although I'm certain it happened a lot.

    How come WWII Japanese Kamikaze pilots committed suicide whereas Islamic terrorists who did the same thing are murderers? I really couldn't care less what anyone calls them but in the end it is a form of suicide that seems to be connected with the growing trend of killing innocents as you depart this world.

    Whatever happened to plain old hanging yourself from the rafters or putting a gun in your mouth while sitting on the can. Maybe it isn't newsworthy enough. A couple years ago I had the pleasure of rolling a guy in the snow who was on fire as a result of a house explosion. Turned out the guy was trying to commit suicide by blowing up his house. He died about 12 hrs after I put the fire out so I guess he succeeded. Are today's suicides an attempt at achieving glory, the more sensational the better.

    Would any psychologist be willing to take a run at this and explain this type of behavior?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,355
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Quote Originally Posted by SealOtter
    i dont think suicide was ever private like u describe
    Then you're making me sound like a genius. I never heard of suicides as a kid, they were always hushed up or we were lied to. You must represent the new generation.

    Anyway all I'm suggesting with this thread is that it seems to have become fashionable to commit suicide by taking innocent lives with you before doing yourself in. Maybe this is a CNN induced conclusion but like I said I never heard about suicides when I was growing up, although I'm certain it happened a lot.

    How come WWII Japanese Kamikaze pilots committed suicide whereas Islamic terrorists who did the same thing are murderers? I really couldn't care less what anyone calls them but in the end it is a form of suicide that seems to be connected with the growing trend of killing innocents as you depart this world.

    Whatever happened to plain old hanging yourself from the rafters or putting a gun in your mouth while sitting on the can. Maybe it isn't newsworthy enough. A couple years ago I had the pleasure of rolling a guy in the snow who was on fire as a result of a house explosion. Turned out the guy was trying to commit suicide by blowing up his house. He died about 12 hrs after I put the fire out so I guess he succeeded. Are today's suicides an attempt at achieving glory, the more sensational the better.

    Would any psychologist be willing to take a run at this and explain this type of behavior?


    Japanese Kamikaze pilots used to attack military targets, whereas modern suicide bombers are happy just to go for just civilians

    such as the 7/7 bombings, bali bombings, madrid bombings etc and its the same for shootings if you shoot a civilian is say a shopping centre(mall)its totally different that one soldier shooting another on the battlefield but in modern war where battles are fought among civilians there are going to be civilian killed in cross fire or bombing raids
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Quote Originally Posted by SealOtter
    i dont think suicide was ever private like u describe
    Then you're making me sound like a genius. I never heard of suicides as a kid, they were always hushed up or we were lied to. You must represent the new generation.

    Anyway all I'm suggesting with this thread is that it seems to have become fashionable to commit suicide by taking innocent lives with you before doing yourself in. Maybe this is a CNN induced conclusion but like I said I never heard about suicides when I was growing up, although I'm certain it happened a lot.

    How come WWII Japanese Kamikaze pilots committed suicide whereas Islamic terrorists who did the same thing are murderers? I really couldn't care less what anyone calls them but in the end it is a form of suicide that seems to be connected with the growing trend of killing innocents as you depart this world.

    Whatever happened to plain old hanging yourself from the rafters or putting a gun in your mouth while sitting on the can. Maybe it isn't newsworthy enough. A couple years ago I had the pleasure of rolling a guy in the snow who was on fire as a result of a house explosion. Turned out the guy was trying to commit suicide by blowing up his house. He died about 12 hrs after I put the fire out so I guess he succeeded. Are today's suicides an attempt at achieving glory, the more sensational the better.

    Would any psychologist be willing to take a run at this and explain this type of behavior?
    The aim of the Japs was mass murder, thier own death was, like the terrorists incidental and not the reason. You must remember that 'suicide' has different meanings. If a mother throws her child out of the path of an oncoming car knowing she will die would you call that as suicide?

    Soldiers who volunteer for a mission knowing there is a high chance they may be killed in action, is that a form of suicide?

    Suicide is an action with the intent to kill oneself. Note the word 'intent'

    I feel you must look to see what the intent is in each case. Maybe we need another couple of words to clarify it. You are right when you say "A form of suicide", I just can't seem to classify a mother sacrificing her life and the 911 bastards under the same heading.

    You are right that 'suicide' used to be private, my great uncle (Bert) whom I never new, ran a coal business in WWI, Most of the best coal was earmarked for the fleet, he was being investigated for 'hiving' some of it away, which was technically treason. His body was found floating in the river. No absolute cause was 'found' so no shame on the rest of his family. He left a note apparently expressing his shame but since it did not actually say he was going to kill himself, "must leave you forever" was taken as 'I'm gonna run off'. One of his brothers (my Grandfather) was ostracized for letting the truth out and preventing the destruction of a diary and the note of Bert's wife. Today I don't see that as anything to be ashamed of or to hide away, or ignore.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,355
    cant believe no-ones mentioned assisted suicide yet, for terminal patients, thats the one that gets me. If your suffering over months with say cancer, why cant you choose to take your own life with assistance?

    If your seen to be sound of mind, you should have the right for assistance, whats the difference for a doctor to aid the inevitable, when they do the same for some vegitative state illness's
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    4,807
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    cant believe no-ones mentioned assisted suicide yet, for terminal patients, thats the one that gets me. If your suffering over months with say cancer, why cant you choose to take your own life with assistance?

    If your seen to be sound of mind, you should have the right for assistance, whats the difference for a doctor to aid the inevitable, when they do the same for some vegitative state illness's
    I'd equate the Kevorkian assisted suicide with euthanasia. I'm pretty sure that in Holland if you are of sound mind that you can ask for a state assisted death but I'm not sure of all the rules. There may be other countries that permit voluntary euthanasia. Just another form of suicide but another example of the changing rules of suicide.

    How about the dilemma facing families that have to 'pull the plug' on somebody incapable of ending their own life. Not sure if that falls into a category for suicide or not. It might deserve its own category, surrogate suicide or something to that affect.

    How many crimes of passion end up murder-suicide? Again the taking of another life with the intent of ending your own, once the murder is complete. It's a frigging boil on the ass of humanity. People who know full well they are going to die as a result of their actions(murder) are in my estimation, committing suicide.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,355
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    cant believe no-ones mentioned assisted suicide yet, for terminal patients, thats the one that gets me. If your suffering over months with say cancer, why cant you choose to take your own life with assistance?

    If your seen to be sound of mind, you should have the right for assistance, whats the difference for a doctor to aid the inevitable, when they do the same for some vegitative state illness's
    I'd equate the Kevorkian assisted suicide with euthanasia. I'm pretty sure that in Holland if you are of sound mind that you can ask for a state assisted death but I'm not sure of all the rules. There may be other countries that permit voluntary euthanasia. Just another form of suicide but another example of the changing rules of suicide.

    How about the dilemma facing families that have to 'pull the plug' on somebody incapable of ending their own life. Not sure if that falls into a category for suicide or not. It might deserve its own category, surrogate suicide or something to that affect.

    How many crimes of passion end up murder-suicide? Again the taking of another life with the intent of ending your own, once the murder is complete. It's a frigging boil on the ass of humanity. People who know full well they are going to die as a result of their actions(murder) are in my estimation, committing suicide.

    yeah i know one of the countrys allow it cause some from the uk with terminal illness's have gone over there, but there was talk of charging the familys on return for assisting them. Not sure where that is at the moment, legally
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    australia
    Posts
    11
    OK students. Listen up!

    1/ In Australia (similar figures in most of the western countries) suicide is the third highest killer. Only heart disease adn cancer are higher.

    2/ By far the biggest single group of suicides are recently divorced dads, accounting for more bodies than all the rest put together.

    The highly publicised youth suicide accounts for only eight precent of all suicides and the kamakazie type suicides , where you take somebody with you, accounts for less than one percent.

    3/ Most of these divorced dads do actually get drunk and quiely blow their brains out.


    For any firther infomation Google your way into the DIDs Dads in Distress web site.
    Don't be afraid of asking stupid questions. They are so much easier to handle than stupid mistakes
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,595
    Quote Originally Posted by sparticuss
    OK students. Listen up!

    1/ In Australia (similar figures in most of the western countries) suicide is the third highest killer. Only heart disease adn cancer are higher...

    2/ By far the biggest single group of suicides are recently divorced dads, accounting for more bodies than all the rest put together.



    The highly publicised youth suicide accounts for only eight precent of all suicides and the kamakazie type suicides , where you take somebody with you, accounts for less than one percent.

    3/ Most of these divorced dads do actually get drunk and quiely blow their brains out.


    For any firther infomation Google your way into the DIDs Dads in Distress web site.
    1- interesting, would think crime and accidental would be ahead of suicide.

    2- I'm told males over 65 in the US are 4 to ones over others. for a long time i have felt our IRS could be blamed for many. very much for the same reasons divorced dads. in 1995 they rewrote some laws, but any person on any day could find all they were is no longer. no questions asked or answered.

    3- here we drink a six pack and don't open the garage doors while keeping the car warm.


    as some others have mentioned when things start falling apart the idea will come to mind. its called depression, but i kind of think reality has set in...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Bachelors Degree charles brough's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    joplin MO USA
    Posts
    425
    Zinanthropus raises a good question: why do people kill themselves? Much of the subsequent discussion was about suicide bombers...a subject itself.

    I know in my own instance that at the end of my first marriage, I was thinking of the subject of death a lot. I was not interested in dying, but thoughts of it constantly came into my mind. Finally, I realized that a pathological process had started and it was time to separate. We did and we divorced.

    Women can try repeatedly to kill themselves but not quite succeeding because they do not quite try hard enough. After all, the will to live is instinctive and it takes a lot of mystery or dedication to overcome it. In their instances, there is also a subconscious wish that someone would then save them after they try. It is a very lonely person's cry for attention.

    You know, depression is a huge problem in our sick society. The pharmacuitical mfgs. thrive on their supplying of anti-depressants. I suspect that many of the armed men who hold off the police are so depressed as to be eager to die. It is really not hard for a man to feel that way when you consider how he comes into adulthood still not knowing what he wants to be in life and finding society not even worth succeeding and serving. He looks ahead only to a long, dreary existence and if he marries, he feels he is a failure and takes it out on his wife.

    I have never tried to take my own life, but I can understand why some people do. And when I get so old and in bad physical shape as to make life not worth living, I will then think seriously of it.

    Sometimes, it is the only escape a person has and should never be banned.

    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
    Brough,
    civilization-overview (dot) com

    --------------------
    There are no accidents, just someone taking too much risk. . . (CB)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,595
    funny thing is it is banned. Ive read some old laws were so strong death was the punishment. these laws are no longer enforced. assisted suicide is an issue in the US today and with all the baby boomer's getting up there in age this should be a viable solution to many of the health and social problems that depress the best of us.

    the ladies do tend to try and get sympathy from attempted suicide at least more so then men.

    purpose of life to me lies in the answer for longevity or maybe the desire to go under certain circumstances. nearly all i have known or read about that lived long lives had some one thing they wanted to accomplish. actually most did die shortly after that was accomplished, or the reason to do that thing ceased...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Forum Bachelors Degree charles brough's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    joplin MO USA
    Posts
    425
    " nearly all i have known or read about that lived long lives had some one thing they wanted to accomplish. actually most did die shortly after that was accomplished, or the reason to do that thing ceased...[/quote]"

    " nearly all i have known or read about that lived long lives had some one thing they wanted to accomplish. actually most did die shortly after that was accomplished, or the reason to do that thing ceased...[/quote]"

    Yes, many older men die soon after they lose their wives. They look back and get mired in sorrow because they have nothing ahead to achieve or work for. That happens too often now because one of the functions of religion is to provide a common goal and thus provide meaning and purpose in life. Christianity fails us in this, miserably. If heaven is the goal, one might as well die right as soon as your wife dies or your children. And with the goal of “The Second Coming, ”we are supposed to work for and look forward to a Tribulation of perhaps nuclear warheads raining down !on us because it is supposed to bring on some sort of “God’s Kingdom Who in their right mind can get worked up and dedicated to that!?

    Charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
    Brough,
    civilization-overview (dot) com

    --------------------
    There are no accidents, just someone taking too much risk. . . (CB)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,595
    religious belief or dependency is more a problem than a solution to the idea of living out a life. we all think we are doing what our lost ones would want and try to live, nearly subconscious. goals are self produced and need a foundation. this issue should be approached to people much as a retirement plan is. the usual scenario is to retire, go someplace and live out your life with a spouse. the fact is many lose this spouse, figure out there too old to find another (or prefer not to) and live day by day with nothing in a future.

    they give hundreds of reason for shorten life but i have yet to see the statistic for "lack of reason".
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Forum Freshman llantas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    42
    Yes, politics/religion could provide somebody with a reason to live, or a reason to die. The purpose that empowers Christians with the power to get into heaven is of the same nature as the power that drove the 9/11 suicide bombers.

    People that decide to kill themselves out of hopelessness (or need for attention) are probably thinking in a different manor.

    The people that decide to take others with them are probably not only fed up with the state of their own life, but with society as a whole. They are upset with the way other people behave, and they probably would like to blame their own problems on the rest of the world. These people do not want to go to a shrink, because a shrink will only make them function like the rest of society (which is clearly something they abhor). These people would like to change society, they would like to destroy what exists and start over. But with the vague understanding that they are not powerful or important enough to do that, they take out the people that directly effected them, or as many random people as they can.

    Or at least that's what I thought it was. And I mean, it's hard to apply a 100% all the time true reason for why people kill themselves. Obviously, there are multitudes of different reasons
    “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen F Roberts

    http://godisimaginary.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •