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Thread: Domestic Violence. Has the Education Carriculum Dealt Properly with This?

  1. #1 Domestic Violence. Has the Education Carriculum Dealt Properly with This? 
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    Have you witnessed Domestic Violence close up.?

    I'm not talking about spats and door slambing. Nor am I talking about raised voices and banging of fists on tables. Or the occassional throwing of the Domestic Refrigerator through the nearest window. ( I've actually witnessed this ).

    No, I'm talking about smack, cop that, and that, and that. And if you get up I'll kill you.

    Who needs to go to Aphganistan?

    So, is Domestic Violence on the rise?

    Do children have this Topic on the modern Carriculums?

    If Domestic Violence is on the rise, whats feeding it?

    Money Problems? People living in Tents? There was less Domestic Violence in the Australian Depression from what I can Remember.

    So what is it with modern 'Blokes'.

    Blokey Culture? You know, we are all blokes together. No. Blokes with shit for brains? possibily. Blokes not dealing with the acceptance of woman as their equals?

    What is this Frustration that leads to disharmony on the Domestic Front? Any thought through answers.? westwind.


    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
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    Domestic violence isn't necessarily on the rise. People are just becoming less and less reluctant to talk about it. AFAIK, the lifetime risk of being assaulted by a partner/husband is still about one in four for women. For men it's a quarter or less of those numbers.

    It's not about 'modern' blokes being worse than previous generations. It's about modern blokes failing to be any better than them.


    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    As my wife would have said adelady, women have a better chance of receiving outside help now of a practical nature if they are in an abusive situation. ( Shelter for her and the kids ). Also there is Welfare. Woman can find work now with no stigma.

    But you are right. Blokes are Blokes. Still. The ratio of Bashers to numbers are probably the same. A family, ( blokes family ), can have a history of violence so it can be a generrational thing. Like Father, like Son.

    But, why arn't we ramming this down our Kids throats at School?

    Are the poor little darlings too tender for realities in this World?

    I saw these realities when I was 2/3/4/5/6/7 years of age, and then later on.

    Did it destroy me? Maybe. But the only violence I have in me is to my Blokey peers who cross some sort of line I have drawn in my unconsious memory/brain. Never have I thought to deal violently with any Female, ever. I have my Mother to thank for that.

    At 79 ( nearly ), I have no reason to lie to Members of The Forum. You do not know that but I know that. So a little Punch and Judy show at School might be useful in preparing young people what to look out for.

    Advice to a Woman. Only pal up with someone that really loves you. And demonstrates this over 4 years. And watch out for drunken mates he might have. Otherwise become Spinsters. In my opinion there are not enough Spinsters in the World. I like Spinsters. westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
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    Teachers have got enough to do. What do you think is going to happen in a class discussion about this? Miss, if it's wrong why does my mum say it was her own fault?

    It's bad enough with mandatory reporting for child sexual abuse without turning teachers into social work client identifiers as well.

    The reason we can't do it in schools is because it's so prevalent. And it's too dangerous as well. One thing we do know about serious domestic violence is that it's most likely that a woman will be killed by a violent partner when she's in the process of leaving. People who say they'll kill you if you leave should be taken more seriously than people who say they'll kill themselves if you do so. A foolhardy teacher getting kids to think and talk about the matter could precipitate the kind of incident at home that gets mum into hospital or killed - and the kids can get injured or killed as well.

    Personally, I think the White Ribbon campaign is a better way to go. Getting blokes, famous blokes, especially footballers and other tough guys, to say openly that they believe domestic violence is wrong. And I like this year's approach - If you speak up, I've got your back. White Ribbon - Australia's Campaign to Stop Violence Against Women Blokes making a commitment that if someone speaks out and gets any pushback, they'll be there for you.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Quote Originally Posted by westwind View Post

    So what is it with modern 'Blokes'.

    Blokey Culture? You know, we are all blokes together. No. Blokes with shit for brains? possibily. Blokes not dealing with the acceptance of woman as their equals?
    I would actually think rather the opposite if anything, whilst it seems many things went on behind closed doors years ago, now people will ask questions and where as years ago people were getting away with beating their wives today they very often can't. The thing is, just the same as with child abuse, people are more aware these days of what can happen and generally speaking far more willing to report it and do something about it. So where as years ago only a tiny percentage of domestic violence was ever reported, today the reporting rates are much higher, although work has to done to improve prosecution rates as only too often victims of such violence withdraw their complaints before any action can be taken. Most modern men accept and believe you should never hit a women and bring their children up with these same values, so if anything I would say male on female violence should be well on the decline.

    Also a relitively new phenomenon is the emergence of reporting of male domestic violence victims, years ago it would have been unheard of to battered men's shelters but they exist today. For which I would say has less to do with blokeyness of men and more to do with emergence of less feminine women and adopting more masculine traits.
    “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.”

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    For which I would say has less to do with blokeyness of men and more to do with emergence of less feminine women and adopting more masculine traits.
    No. It's the same issue as the other side of the DV coin. There have always been violent women. It just didn't fit the picture people had of their society as "men are stronger than women". Women are not inclined to be as violent as men - even if it's true, it doesn't follow that one particular woman won't be more violent than a given man. It also fails to account for the incidence of mental health and addiction problems - women may or may not be less often affected than men, but one who is may well be violent towards their family.

    It's much the same as the 'respect for women' notion was an obstacle to acknowledging that far too many men had no respect for women at all. It was only when people recognised that male violence was not a sign of individual aberration but of a common social problem that things got done. We're not there yet with female on male violence, but we will get there.

    For a good overview of family life in general, you can't go past The Subversive Family: An Alternative History of Love and Marriage by Ferdinand Mount. (Though christians should skip Chapter 1. Mr Mount had started his research with the common idea that xtianity had supported and protected women and families. Discovering other things about the church means that his attitude looks very much like any other recent convert who suddenly wants to convince others, right now, of the evils of smoking or eating the wrong foods or living the wrong lifestyle. Very angry, very pushy.)
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  8. #7  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    Long ago
    I had a friend named Harry, he said that he had been in my platoon, but I didn't remember him from then(I was pretty loopy there for awhile)
    anyway
    we met again years later and he introduced me to his wife, Kathy and I him to my first wife
    Poor Harry had a peculiar relationship with his wife, she would goad him untill he lost his temper and hit her... sometimes it seemed out of control, and then he was locked in remorse, which didn't solve the problem...
    ..."What in hell are these people doing?" thought I.
    So I decided to get involved and try to modify the pattern-------Long story short-------I was trying to convince Harry that she was just using words to play with his psyche, and he should understand that words could be taken however he wanted, and he didn't have to be enslaved to their intent, but was free to change the pattern, I suggested that he just try laughter when she started the goading----time passed, and I was making headway, then one day, our wives were out shopping for groceries, and Harry and I were at his house with his 2 really beautiful children, discussing control over words, and I was cautioning that it was easy to start a fight with some well chosen words, when , fortuitously, our wives came home. I turned to Harry and said "watch this".
    As the women came through the door, I bellowed at them "WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN?!!!!! Whereupon, they both started joining what they perceived to be the beginning of a fight. I started laughing and turned to Harry and said---See what I mean?
    I then appologized to the women, and jumped up to help carry the groceries. And we had a pleasant meal which Harry cooked(he was one helluva damned good cook)........
    I don't know if the effect/affect lasted, but for the next few weeks that I was in town, there was peace in their household.

    Patterns
    can tend to become locked in, and if they are patterns of violence, they don't tend to stop of their own. And the people trapped in those patterns are every bit prisoners.

    (there was a band ???--and they had an album(?) entitled "she broke my heart so I busted her jaw")

    My mother's father was a drunk----he started off as a young man brilliant and stubborn, and as the years passed, and the booze took it's toll, the brilliance faded as the stubborness remained.
    He and his wife had gotten into the pattern, that he would stay out drinking in town, then come home drunk and she would berate him and they would fight------over the years, this became pattern, and when he came home, he expected a fight(they both did), and that's what always happened, till one night(different aunts and uncles had different perspectives here, but) she was tending the fire or cooking, and as he approached, she spun and either hit him in the head with a fire poker, or cast iron skillet-------either way, he crumpled to the ground and remained unconscious till his sons loaded him in the wagon and drove him off to the hospital----a few weeks later, he returned home, standing at the front door, scraping his feed and asking if it was ok that he come in------She said that he could if---he would control the drinking, and just have a nip at home after a meal, to which he agreed to try.
    They changed their pattern.

    Not all are so lucky
    Last edited by sculptor; November 14th, 2012 at 10:45 PM.
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    "she broke my heart so I busted her jaw"
    Reminder of Gavin de Becker's version .....

    “At core, men are afraid women will laugh at them, while at core, women are afraid men will kill them.”
    of Margaret Atwood's .....

    “Why are you afraid of women?” I asked a group of men
    “We’re afraid they’ll laugh at us,” replied the men.
    “Why are you afraid of men?” I asked a group of women.
    “We’re afraid they’ll kill us,” replied the woman.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  10. #9  
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    Adelady:
    And, yet, oddly enough, It was my mother's mother who almost killed my mother's father when she cracked his skull.

    I also knew(when I was with stratcom) a soldier named Russ, who maried a young woman(girl actually) and fell into a like pattern, instead of going home after our duty day, he would hang out at the nco club with the rest of us, and go home late and mildly drunk, and they would fight. One fine night, she called the post and said that if they wanted russ, they should send an ambulance and pick him up because he was lying on the bed with a butcher knife stuck in his back............ it seems that they had fallen into an abusive pattern, and she had decided on a course of action to end it one way or another. She really got his attention, and changed his evil ways.

    Why he and my grandfather had both chosen to hang out with the guys drinking instead of going home to their wives and families, is beyond my ken, and why the building animosity and eventually abusive actions is also beyond my ken. Were they longing for a freedom they never had? What was it that made them dread and avoid going home? What is it that makes some people want not to develope a love and intimacy that leads to a desire to be with their mates?
    I find the hard sciences much easier than the "arm chair sciences"(like psychology) but even in the hard sciences, I do not understand why some people cling to attitudes that, to me, seem counterproductive for the inculcation of and developement of a knowledge base.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Domestic violence isn't necessarily on the rise. People are just becoming less and less reluctant to talk about it. AFAIK, the lifetime risk of being assaulted by a partner/husband is still about one in four for women. For men it's a quarter or less of those numbers.

    It's not about 'modern' blokes being worse than previous generations. It's about modern blokes failing to be any better than them.
    You talk about it as if it was something completely out of your control, like cancer. Even cancer is not completely out of your control, if you don't eat junk all day for recreation, you'll likely never get it. If you're a decent person nobody will ever want to harm you, unless they are complete animals. If you change the lock on your door and call your husband on the phone saying it's over, and when your husband comes home he hits his head against the door as the keys fail to open it, you are asking for domestic violence at its peak.

    Being decent is not necessarly acting decent, it's acting according to your partner's needs. Even marrying a man for the money without loving him CAN be ok...you know there are actually men who sexually enjoy giving money to women without expecting anything in return, so if your partner has such a need, it's ok to take his money. But if you take his money and your partner doesn't like it, you might end up with a few concussions and a broken leg. It's all about understanding the needs of your partner and only acting according to them alone.
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    If you're a decent person nobody will ever want to harm you, unless they are complete animals.
    So it's OK for people to harm you if you're not "a decent person"? What if you're usually OK but today's a bad day?
    Just who, exactly, is in charge of the definition of what "a decent person" is anyway? As is happens, there are some men who are completely committed to violence as the only way to control the people around them. They're not 'complete animals' because they control their violence. Otherwise, nobody would ever be surprised when they hear that a woman has left her violent husband (I thought they were happy) or been killed.

    But if you take his money and your partner doesn't like it, you might end up with a few concussions and a broken leg. It's all about understanding the needs of your partner and only acting according to them alone.
    And what do you say to the woman whose husband has a "need" for her to do things she can't, in fact, do. Many abusive men expect their partners to anticipate what they want at any time without ever being 'told'. Others insist that a woman should keep the children 'quiet', never leave the house, not have a job, to have yet another child although the last one nearly killed her, never have a visitor ....... or wear lipstick or any other whim or fancy that crosses his mind?

    Others will react violently if they're asked for money for anything at all, or to help with domestic tasks when their partner has had a tough day at work/with the baby/with the children, or to do something they'd earlier agreed to do.

    A concussion or a broken leg is supposed to be the price for not meeting the totally irrational "needs" of a grown man who wants something? What's wrong with the price being his disappointment or his feeling that he's hard done by or, wonder of wonders, reflecting on whether he's right or fair or asking too much or expressing himself badly? Maybe, just maybe, he could just slam the door on his way out to cool off from his tantrum.

    It's all about understanding the needs of your partner and only acting according to them alone.
    That would work pretty well unless you happened to have needs of your own. Who's supposed to look after them?

    I'd always thought the vows about "for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish," went both ways.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just a thought. How many of you knew women who were killed by their partner or an ex? I realise younger people probably wouldn't, but most people should at least have heard of others through their friends, work or family.

    One woman is killed by an ex or a partner every week in Australia on average. With similar population rates, Germany-Britain-France should show 3+ per week each. USA would be 15ish per week.

    I knew one woman who was murdered by her husband, I'd only met her once but she was the sister of a friend so I heard a lot from their kids about their auntie. And one bloke I talked with quite often at a local cafe (I'd always presumed he was single/widowed/divorced) killed his ex at her job the day he was served with final divorce papers. (She had asked that service be delayed until the following week when she would be out of town, but they served them anyway. This was yet another among the "I never thought he was like that" events from people who had known them when they were married.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    And what do you say to the woman whose husband has a "need" for her to do things she can't, in fact, do. Many abusive men expect their partners to anticipate what they want at any time without ever being 'told'. Others insist that a woman should keep the children 'quiet', never leave the house, not have a job, to have yet another child although the last one nearly killed her, never have a visitor ....... or wear lipstick or any other whim or fancy that crosses his mind?

    Others will react violently if they're asked for money for anything at all, or to help with domestic tasks when their partner has had a tough day at work/with the baby/with the children, or to do something they'd earlier agreed to do.

    A concussion or a broken leg is supposed to be the price for not meeting the totally irrational "needs" of a grown man who wants something? What's wrong with the price being his disappointment or his feeling that he's hard done by or, wonder of wonders, reflecting on whether he's right or fair or asking too much or expressing himself badly? Maybe, just maybe, he could just slam the door on his way out to cool off from his tantrum.
    I can only think that men who behave like this have been brought up to be bullies, that what it seems to me. They seem to be trying to bully their wives into getting what they want because they've not been taught or disiplined properly into learning that kind of behaviour is unacceptable. But what I would have thought is given that attitudes towards tollerating that kind of behaviour have changed so much and the mere suspicion that man may be beating his wife leads to general disgust and possible criminal sanctions should be enough social pressure to stop this kind of thing from happening.
    “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.”

    Bertrand Russell
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    should be enough social pressure to stop this kind of thing from happening.
    "Should be" doesn't seem to have had any impact on the death rate, and I haven't heard of any women's shelters closing down because of too many empty beds. Last I heard, they were looking for more funds because they're still turning some families away or turfing some families out before they're fully sure of their safety.

    As for the bullying. Maybe we should pay more attention to reducing bullying in schools to prevent people from developing such habits in their formative years. When we're satisfied we've got that under control, we could be a bit more confident that young adult men will be a bit less likely to believe that this behaviour is acceptable.

    Just seeing a decline in the statistics for partner violence in younger women would be encouraging. I know everyone is all up in arms about sexual abuse of children, but statistics tell us that men over 60 report much higher rates of sexual abuse as children than men under 30 do. That's the sort of thing we need to hear about domestic assaults and sexual violence against younger women compared to the women of my generation.
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    Do you think adelady that it is the constant uttered or silently indicated message the Parential Generations impose upon their young to make a complete success of their lives that leads to immaturity and self destructive behaviour when the young can't meet the expectation? Alchohol Abuse, Drug use, withdrawal from Family influence, rejection of what they see as acceptable social norms, looking for another avenue of imagined pathway to some imagined success that will eventually please their Parents?

    The lack of, or rejected use of acceptable social order and skills indicates, to me anyway, that it is a hitting back at, what they perceive as a biased System that they are never going to crack. They seek self-esteem and recognition from the System and when this dosn't happen they become victims in their own minds. So, being victims, they lash out.

    Having said that we are probably over re-acting. Maybe the School Carriculums are, or soon will be, making inroads into understanding the Special needs some more vunerable children have. Requiring a little more understanding and comforting. Unfortunately, just when we should be in a position to offer this support and comforting, the Parents find themselves too busy to notice the needs, or that the needs are not being met properly of one or more of their children. And heaven help an outsider who sees the need to help, even a teacher desirous of at least offering some understanding, as this could be interrpreted as being a little too friendly.

    Our Generation adelady saw domestic violence from men. A lot was caused by the men not adjusting to being civilians again after the wars. westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
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    Our Generation adelady saw domestic violence from men. A lot was caused by the men not adjusting to being civilians again after the wars.
    There will always be mental health problems, PTSD among them. What's important is that people should recognise that violence in themselves or a partner is a flashing red light that something has to be done.

    That something is usually separation and/or divorce. But there should also be an emphasis on ensuring that people in these situations get appropriate treatment for their antisocial impulses. One of the reasons for the persistence of DV in some cases is the social, and often church, insistence that divorce is not an option - but they don't offer any other options. Like therapy or support groups or any other useful thing. (There's always the turn the other cheek option for the victim, but that doesn't always turn out so well.)

    War would be no excuse for a father to get his 11 year old son to ring his mother and berate her for 'not putting up with it' - after they'd divorced and he took the son and she kept the daughter. Because God. She was a deeply religious woman (bored me rigid sometimes reading extracts from religious stuff over the phone) and there was no way she didn't do her best to keep her family together until she couldn't take it any more. Your best will never be good enough when faced with a man who believes his god justifies his domination, by physical and any other means, of his wife and family. He also persuades the children that what he does is sanctified by their religion. And no. He wasn't a veteran of any wars. Read some of the ghastly marital and child rearing advice that comes from some of our religious groups (mainly US-based but not all of them) and you'll see that some men and women really do think that male violence is part of the deal in marriage.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Adelady
    when i married my first wife(Patti) the law in Illinois specifically allowed a husband "to beat his wife within reason"........I pointed this out to Patti one day, and her response was, "not if you wish to keep waking up" ........... we had a tumultuous relationship which ended in divorce, and for many years thereafter she would call me up when she was feeling blue, and we would chat for hours for several evenings in a row, she said that I could always cheer her up.

    While we were married, we had a dispute which led to her hitting me. (She was 5'4" and 110 lbs soaking wet, me 5'11" 165#, and I began to laugh at the sillyness of her rage, she then proceeded to start throwing things at me, and I couldn't stop laughing as I fended off pots and pans and heavy glass ashtrays, and finally staggered outside and fell down laughing in the driveway, whereupon, she jumped in her car and tried to run me over, I rolled off into the lawn and under some trees as she sped off.
    One day, during one of our post marital chats, she said that the cruelest thing I ever did to her, was to laugh at her when she was really mad. ( I wasn't laughing at her, I was laughang at the action)(and, after she told me how cruel that was, I wished I hadn't)


    ............
    as/re bullies
    there was a study done a few years ago, which seems to indicate that the brains of (some?)bullies are wired a bit differently than most of us in such that witnessing(inflicting?) pain on others excites the pleasure center in their brains........... maybe, for some blokes, this ain't something that can be addressed on a cultural level?
    Last edited by sculptor; November 16th, 2012 at 12:27 PM.
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    The husbands who snap and kill their wives are victims of illusionism. They may believe they got a lovely wife who loves them and them alone...When a man believes something which is not part of reality, that man is very dangerous, because when reality proves him wrong, he loses all balance and contact with reality. Like, when his "lovely wife" cheats on him and he finds out, reality becomes a very uncertain notion, and the things that mattered most to him are now irrelevant, and this can lead to a very dangerous situation. Get a vibrator ladies, there are other ways. Don't put your man to the test.

    P.S. Please don't quote the bolt sentence out of context, thank you all.
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    You must always paint an accurate picture of who you are. Don't be the illusionist wife who portraits herself as a loving wife and then pull the rabbit out of the hat by cheating. Don't play magic tricks like that, it's bad. If you love cheating on your husband...you know, well, you surely don't know but, there's men who sexually enjoy being cuckolded, it turns them on to see their wife cheat on them. If your thing is cheating on your husband, get one like that and you can cheat on him every night, 365 days a week and he'll love it! He'll be happy with you.

    Always act according to your partner's needs and don't be an illusionist, don't play magic tricks!
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