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Thread: Hatred

  1. #1 Hatred 
    Forum Professor scoobydoo1's Avatar
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    The word Hatred is commonly defined as an intense or severe dislike. In the realm of psychology, it is described as an emotion of intense revulsion, enmity, hostility, loathing, etc. Associative words include disgust, malice, antipathy, animosity, resentment, etc. It is very often if not always; an intense and powerful emotion for which the reasons for it are many, some justified and others not so much.

    It was once said that it is easier to start hating than it is to stop. I'd like to ask that some of you to share any object and/or subject of your hatred; for the purpose of an informal study on the forum. I am very interested in your object of hatred and the reasons (if any) for it.



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    I hate hatred! it sucks!

    I hate it so bad! and I hate myself for hating it! I feel sick! I have no empathy for haters... even though I hate them myself.

    And thats pretty much all i got to say about that...


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    I hate hatred! it sucks!

    I hate it so bad! and I hate myself for hating it! I feel sick! I have no empathy for haters... even though I hate them myself.

    And thats pretty much all i got to say about that...
    Hating hatred is a form of self-propagation.

    An emotion of intense dislike or revulsion for an emotion and/or an expression of intense dislike or revulsion.
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  5. #4  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    I have a strong dislike for smugness that disdains the weak and helpless.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I have a strong dislike for smugness that disdains the weak and helpless.
    Can you share an example you may have witnessed, heard, or read about regarding the above? And if possible, share a reason or two why you have a strong dislike for it. I think many may share your perspective, but I'd like to hear it in your own words.
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  7. #6  
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    I recall an incident where I asked a car driver if he would mind parking his car not in the space reserved for disabled drivers. He refused in a disparaging way: "What does it matter to you. You're not disabled." From there the discussion went down hill.

    Why did I dislike that? On two levels: emotionally I was raised to be respectful of others and provide support to those in need; on a rational basis I see the survival value of inclusiveness and of rules that protect all members of society.
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    Yes scooby, im sure it is.

    John... you could consider people who do not know the truth and make up or go along with conspiracy theories as weak...

    Therefore i'm sure you will be forced to admit to yourself that you are guilty of treating these weak people with disdain!

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    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion I gain strength.
    Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory.
    Through victory my chains are broken.

    - Sith Code
    (emotion is useful, especially anger leading to hatred. It helps me concentrate)
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    John... you could consider people who do not know the truth and make up or go along with conspiracy theories as weak...

    Therefore i'm sure you will be forced to admit to yourself that you are guilty of treating these weak people with disdain!

    It is a self inflicted weakness. They have worked, through self indulgent stupidity, to earn my disdain. It would be cavalier of me to withhold it.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I have a strong dislike for smugness that disdains the weak and helpless.
    Rorschach?
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  12. #11  
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    You will have to explain that reference to me. Inkblots? I don't see the connection. Either very obvious or very subtle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    You will have to explain that reference to me. Inkblots? I don't see the connection. Either very obvious or very subtle.
    No, no Rorschach from Watchmen has basically the same philosophy towards hatred as you do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    The word Hatred is commonly defined as an intense or severe dislike. In the realm of psychology, it is described as an emotion of intense revulsion, enmity, hostility, loathing, etc. Associative words include disgust, malice, antipathy, animosity, resentment, etc. It is very often if not always; an intense and powerful emotion for which the reasons for it are many, some justified and others not so much.

    It was once said that it is easier to start hating than it is to stop. I'd like to ask that some of you to share any object and/or subject of your hatred; for the purpose of an informal study on the forum. I am very interested in your object of hatred and the reasons (if any) for it.
    What would kill the beauty of the person I love most, for that person would kill any person, and the smile of your life would die whether you walked on or not here. That is the only thing that would earn hatred from me, but all of it would come forth then.

    Otherwise, I hate nothing.
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  15. #14  
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    I destain destain
    hate hatred
    am intollerant of intollerance
    loath loathing

    but then again
    I have a limited amount of self loathing and I ain't gonna waste it on any of the above

    can you have love without hate?
    enjoy light without dark?
    wet and dry
    clean and dirty
    old and young
    high and low
    cold and hot

    Qualitative or quantitative
    or a blend of the two
    all are tied closely to each other
    as opposite ends of the same stick
    ...............
    find the center, and the burden feels lighter
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seft View Post
    What would kill the beauty of the person I love most, for that person would kill any person, and the smile of your life would die whether you walked on or not here. That is the only thing that would earn hatred from me, but all of it would come forth then.

    Otherwise, I hate nothing.
    The metamorphosis of the object/subject of your desire is the one thing that can possibly earns your hate?
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke23 View Post
    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion I gain strength.
    Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory.
    Through victory my chains are broken.

    - Sith Code
    (emotion is useful, especially anger leading to hatred. It helps me concentrate)
    Raw emotions can be strong motivating forces that facilitates action. But to rely on anger or hatred alone for concentration is a tad bit extreme isn't it?
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Locke23 View Post
    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion I gain strength.
    Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory.
    Through victory my chains are broken.

    - Sith Code
    (emotion is useful, especially anger leading to hatred. It helps me concentrate)
    Raw emotions can be strong motivating forces that facilitates action. But to rely on anger or hatred alone for concentration is a tad bit extreme isn't it?
    I wouldn't say that, it gives one purpose.
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  19. #18  
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    While in this thread I have learned, that many of the things that I hate, I can stop hating, or get used to after a few days, like not having a/c or tv.

    And I have learned that perhaps most hate is selfish, that hate being all about your own comfort.



    I just noticed that you asked for people to list a single thing they hate, I listed more than one, I am sorry. But thanks for starting this thread, I believe it felt good to let it all out.


    1.) I hate the US republican party (but I do not hate the individual, I like Harold and Lynx_Fox ex.ex.) - I hate them for lying, not caring about people, and creating Americas debt.
    2.) I hate racism- because it hurts and kills innocent people, and the racists are crazy idiots.
    3.) I hate very spicy foods- because they hurt my mouth
    4.) I hate getting burned- I just dislike it more, than other forms of pain.
    5.) I hate being bossed around- I just dont like it.
    6.) I hate thinking about mistakes I made in the past- because it can hurt.
    7.) I hate not being able to access my AT&T email- I just feel AT&T could do a better job.
    8.) I hate not having things like alcohol- I just like knowing its there if I want it.
    9.) I hate when a girl I love teases me- its not pleasant
    10.) I hate pre-opened merchandise that I bought as new, or damaged merchandise- When I buy something new I like it in perfect condition.
    11.) I hate pesticides around my tarantula collection- because pesticides kill insects.
    12.) I hate a water hose being used around my venus fly trap collection- because they need 100% filtered water.
    13.) I hate stupid music whether its rock, country, or rap (like the country song, way down yonder on the chatahuche)
    14.) I hate seeing people get hurt in accidents- I just hate seeing people get hurt, unless they deserve it.
    15.) I hate complex math- it drives me nuts.
    16.) I hate people handling my collections roughly or with dirty hands- I like to keep certain things in perfect condition.
    17.) I hate when I am stuck some were with an idiot and they drove- I hate it because I dont have my own car to drive home.
    18.) I hate super loud music in bars, were you are unable to hear people talk- I just feel its stupid.


    I hate loud noise from my neighbors- It drives me nuts, but occasional noise is ok.
    I hate giving public speeches- I almost passed out making a graduating speech in high school.
    I hate seeming stupid around girls, or making mistakes around girls.
    I hate that there's a good chance G. W. Bush's friends own the company that owns/moves Americas voting machines- b/c those immoral lying CEO's could fix the elections.
    I hate scratches on a brand new car- I just do.
    I hate that kids dont play outside as much as they used too- because they can loose touch with nature.
    I hate super high shipping costs- I feel sellers should list the actual price of an item, instead of charging $2.00 for the item, and $17.00 for shipping.
    I hate it if the young people in my family do not have good morals.
    I hate evil men.
    I hate it when I dont have anything to drink except water.
    I hate it when people get mad at me.
    I hate the idea of the whole world being evil/weak- like everyone being a Nazi or USSR communist.
    I hate poisonous substances that could hurt me- like asbestos and cancer causing chemicals.
    I hate cold showers.
    And sometimes I hate being me (like right now)
    Last edited by chad; September 6th, 2012 at 03:49 AM.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seft View Post
    What would kill the beauty of the person I love most, for that person would kill any person, and the smile of your life would die whether you walked on or not here. That is the only thing that would earn hatred from me, but all of it would come forth then.

    Otherwise, I hate nothing.
    The metamorphosis of the object/subject of your desire is the one thing that can possibly earns your hate?
    Mistreating my friends with any form of abuse gets my immediate determination for the removal of the irritant, and then I do that.

    Otherwise, why hate at all? Problems can be solved, and I don't expect others to agree with me all the time.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seft View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    The metamorphosis of the object/subject of your desire is the one thing that can possibly earns your hate?
    Mistreating my friends with any form of abuse gets my immediate determination for the removal of the irritant, and then I do that.

    Otherwise, why hate at all? Problems can be solved, and I don't expect others to agree with me all the time.
    "Why hate at all?" is a very good question. One that I would like to understand better by the object/subject brought up and the reasons (if any given) for it.

    The more extreme or severe forms of hatred is what I had in mind actually, as opposed to the casual use of the word hate/hatred. That is in-line with the inclusion of the words "severe, intense, powerful" as mentioned in my opening post, and not falling into the characterization of a milder form of dislike, resentment, loathing, etc.

    I think it's fair to say that many if not all people hold certain values and have drawn for themselves certain lines that once crossed or seemingly violated, evokes an emotion that can be surprising sudden and reactive to the point that they may not realize their reaction till after the fact. Some of these values or lines are those which some of us are consciously aware of (taking John's input as an example), and others that we may only just realized after the event that has evoked the emotion and reaction has taken place (as such some people's aversion to having their personal space intruded as a possible example).

    To take part in this little informal study, I myself have recently noticed that I have a low tolerance for "whinny people" (particularly those from the younger generation and of the opposite sex; women - no offense intended if there are any lady folk present). When I am in the presence of such "whinny outbursts" by the younger females, I find that my usual calm and collected self nearing the point of loosing it, and in order to keep myself from loosing it, I need (not merely want) get away from it, as fast as possible and by any means possible. I will describe "loosing it" by either possibly verbally engaging the object/subject that is causing my discomfort and/or often fantasizing physically attacking them (like punching their lights out).

    This barely uncontrollable urge to either flee or fight the object/subject of my discomfort is possibly what I would categorize as hatred. An evoked emotion that is so powerful and intense that it is possible to override the better part of my judgement under normal circumstance. A discomfort evoking such a powerful emotion and possibly reaction is what I find fascinating, and I wish to study and understand it better.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad View Post
    I just noticed that you asked for people to list a single thing they hate, I listed more than one, I am sorry. But thanks for starting this thread, I believe it felt good to let it all out.
    Well, I originally wanted this thread to serve as an informal study on the topic, but if this thread also serves another purpose that does not conflict with the forum rules; I have no objections.
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    One thing I've noticed missing from people's comments about hate. Fear.

    I suddenly remembered a conversation from decades ago where I'd been talking to a female friend about my ex-husband (I had a couple of deeply nasty nicknames for him). A bloke who'd overheard us suggested that I should watch out - showing that much hatred might be just the "inverse of love" and that indicated to him that I might be confused in my feelings. I laughed that off but I thought about it later.

    Then I realised that the intense feelings were driven by fear. I was still afraid of him even though I hadn't seen him for several years by then and I was happily married to someone else.

    And when you look at people who express generalised hate, in the forms of racism and sexism for instance - you can often hear an undertone of fear. Whether you could ever pinpoint exactly what an individual is actually afraid of with women or people of a different colour is another issue.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seft View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    The metamorphosis of the object/subject of your desire is the one thing that can possibly earns your hate?
    Mistreating my friends with any form of abuse gets my immediate determination for the removal of the irritant, and then I do that.

    Otherwise, why hate at all? Problems can be solved, and I don't expect others to agree with me all the time.
    "Why hate at all?" is a very good question. One that I would like to understand better by the object/subject brought up and the reasons (if any given) for it.

    The more extreme or severe forms of hatred is what I had in mind actually, as opposed to the casual use of the word hate/hatred. That is in-line with the inclusion of the words "severe, intense, powerful" as mentioned in my opening post, and not falling into the characterization of a milder form of dislike, resentment, loathing, etc.

    I think it's fair to say that many if not all people hold certain values and have drawn for themselves certain lines that once crossed or seemingly violated, evokes an emotion that can be surprising sudden and reactive to the point that they may not realize their reaction till after the fact. Some of these values or lines are those which some of us are consciously aware of (taking John's input as an example), and others that we may only just realized after the event that has evoked the emotion and reaction has taken place (as such some people's aversion to having their personal space intruded as a possible example).

    To take part in this little informal study, I myself have recently noticed that I have a low tolerance for "whinny people" (particularly those from the younger generation and of the opposite sex; women - no offense intended if there are any lady folk present). When I am in the presence of such "whinny outbursts" by the younger females, I find that my usual calm and collected self nearing the point of loosing it, and in order to keep myself from loosing it, I need (not merely want) get away from it, as fast as possible and by any means possible. I will describe "loosing it" by either possibly verbally engaging the object/subject that is causing my discomfort and/or often fantasizing physically attacking them (like punching their lights out).

    This barely uncontrollable urge to either flee or fight the object/subject of my discomfort is possibly what I would categorize as hatred. An evoked emotion that is so powerful and intense that it is possible to override the better part of my judgement under normal circumstance. A discomfort evoking such a powerful emotion and possibly reaction is what I find fascinating, and I wish to study and understand it better.
    Arousing my fear calms me, for I do not...

    That means arousing my alternatives, against that which would threaten us opposing them.

    At that point, I don't use any violence but that of my enemies to get rid of them.

    And then do, did, so.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    It was once said that it is easier to start hating than it is to stop. I'd like to ask that some of you to share any object and/or subject of your hatred; for the purpose of an informal study on the forum. I am very interested in your object of hatred and the reasons (if any) for it.
    I really, really, really hate carrot cake. Corned beef also. Looks like I only hate food that tastes terrible, just because I don't know what shit tastes like. Yet if I had to I would eat lousy tasting food in extremis, like starving to death. So I think most people can stop hating something if their own welfare is at stake.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Adelady hit the nail on the head as she often does.

    Fear and Love are the only real emotional states we experience.

    Everything such as hate, envy, rage and all those 'negative emotions all stem from fear.

    Empathy, compassion, joy, etc all stem from love.

    It's that simple... Love is a spectrum of feelings which has a set corresponding vibrational frequencies. fear is the opposite spectrum which has it's set of vibrational frequencies.

    It has been found in experiments that the body resonates at a high frequency whenthe mind is in a state of Love, and it resonates at Lower frequencies when the mind is in a state of fear.

    It was claimed that the 'high frequency' vibrational state stimulates the development and renovation of the DNA, whereas the Lower frequencies experience during states of fear can retard and damage the DNA leading to illness and disease.

    Very simple stuff really isn't it?

    So to hate which is the result of fear, is to do self harm. Haters are self harmers! bloody attention seeking retards... you gotta love 'em!
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    Adelady:
    To pin point the fear factor that causes hatred towards women or other races would be easy I think... it could be fear of losing a woman, fear that she will show you up as she knows so much about you, fear that she will break your heart etc.

    As for race, it is the fear of the unknown, fear that they might hate you and your kind, fear that they are plotting to dominate you etc etc.
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Fear and Love are the only real emotional states we experience.

    Everything such as hate, envy, rage and all those 'negative emotions all stem from fear.

    Empathy, compassion, joy, etc all stem from love.

    It's that simple... Love is a spectrum of feelings which has a set corresponding vibrational frequencies. fear is the opposite spectrum which has it's set of vibrational frequencies.

    It has been found in experiments that the body resonates at a high frequency whenthe mind is in a state of Love, and it resonates at Lower frequencies when the mind is in a state of fear.

    It was claimed that the 'high frequency' vibrational state stimulates the development and renovation of the DNA, whereas the Lower frequencies experience during states of fear can retard and damage the DNA leading to illness and disease.
    Wow. All that sounds so wrong for some reason, and I do not even know where to begin or even how to process all that. Can you provide me with a reference on where you got all that? Specifically the part about "vibrational frequencies" and how it is suppose to influence DNA?
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    One thing I've noticed missing from people's comments about hate. Fear.
    I was hoping for the thread to mature a little more, but this seems as good a time as any to go into the cause and effect of other emotions morphing into hatred (or vice versa) as dealt by different personality types.

    I have read somewhere before that not everyone deals with fear induced aggression in the same manner as you have. I am not sure if the fight or flight response plays a large part in all this, but would you agree if I said that your nicknames for your Ex may have been an attempt at a fight response as oppose to a flight response?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I really, really, really hate carrot cake. Corned beef also. Looks like I only hate food that tastes terrible, just because I don't know what shit tastes like. Yet if I had to I would eat lousy tasting food in extremis, like starving to death. So I think most people can stop hating something if their own welfare is at stake.
    How badly do you hate the things you hate; carrot cake for instance?

    What might your response have been, supposing for a minute that someone surprised you by serving you carrot cake disguised as some other type of food, and you have already taken a mouthful?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Fear and Love are the only real emotional states we experience.

    Everything such as hate, envy, rage and all those 'negative emotions all stem from fear.

    Empathy, compassion, joy, etc all stem from love.

    It's that simple... Love is a spectrum of feelings which has a set corresponding vibrational frequencies. fear is the opposite spectrum which has it's set of vibrational frequencies.

    It has been found in experiments that the body resonates at a high frequency whenthe mind is in a state of Love, and it resonates at Lower frequencies when the mind is in a state of fear.

    It was claimed that the 'high frequency' vibrational state stimulates the development and renovation of the DNA, whereas the Lower frequencies experience during states of fear can retard and damage the DNA leading to illness and disease.
    Wow. All that sounds so wrong for some reason, and I do not even know where to begin or even how to process all that. Can you provide me with a reference on where you got all that? Specifically the part about "vibrational frequencies" and how it is suppose to influence DNA?
    Wow, it amazes me that it can seem SO wrong before you even manage to process it! A sign that you are conditioned to judge things without due consideration perhaps? You say some reason... why not look further into it and discover what that reason is exactly? nevermind if it's right or wrong, just analyse why it seems wrong to you.
    I cannot at this moment give you a refference at this point, try pasting some of it in google and see what you can troll through.
    The vibrational frequencies measured were the electromagnetic frequency of the brain/body I think. you know, our brain operates at different frequencies, are you familliar with this? for example when we sleep the brain goes through various frequencies which correspond with different stages of sleep. I.e deep sleep where we experience 'epic' dreams will be at the lower or highest (I don't remember) frequencies of the brain/body.

    So it makes perfect sense that the frequency of the brain will vary during different 'emotional states'. I think the reason it sounds wrong to you might be becuase you think it sounds like new age or spiritual thinking? when in fact it is largely discovered by scientific experiment. We have vibes man... the hippies were right dude, so were the ancients MAN! Everything has vibes dude, what rock u been hiding under?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    One thing I've noticed missing from people's comments about hate. Fear.
    I was hoping for the thread to mature a little more, but this seems as good a time as any to go into the cause and effect of other emotions morphing into hatred (or vice versa) as dealt by different personality types.

    I have read somewhere before that not everyone deals with fear induced aggression in the same manner as you have. I am not sure if the fight or flight response plays a large part in all this, but would you agree if I said that your nicknames for your Ex may have been an attempt at a fight response as oppose to a flight response?
    Fight or flight is to do with an adrenaline rush... not a prolonged and sustained reaction to a person. If Adelady felt such fear that she feared for her imediate safety, then her body would give her a hit of adrenaline which would enable her to either fight or to run without much thought. making up nick names is something which most likely happened later when not under the influence of an adrenaline rush. I would have thought. Sorry about butting in.
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    Nicknames as fight or flight? Nah. More like PTSD.
    question for you likes this.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    I don't know if I would call it hatred, but I suffer extreme disgust/revulsion about harm caused to the young or the innocent, whether accidental or intentional. I even have a hard time googling or reading about these stories. I guess what shocks me most is that these things can happen or that people would do these things.

    Here's something accidental about a little girl at a swimming pool (she died).

    Here's something intentional about a little boy with a toy bunny (he was saved).
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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    I've been pondering that one too, jr.

    My reactions are best filed in the revulsion, rage, loathing, abhorrence categories. But when you see this stuff there's the more overwhelming feeling of pity or sympathy for the children affected and annoyance at your own inability to help the child or prevent the events. So the reactions are all mixed up emotionally. Often there's a touch of irritation or helplessness that police or children's services didn't or couldn't act effectively to prevent the worst of these things.

    I suspect that hatred would come into it if you knew someone responsible. A friend's father, a teacher or preacher you previously respected, a family down the street you always thought were OK, a mother who knew her children were being abused by her husband/son/father/brother and stood by. (These are the ones, the passive, enabling or disbelieving mothers who get to me, even though the men involved are primarily responsible. Which is also confusing emotionally - you flail around never sure where your rage should be focused.)

    Then there comes the fear that you could get sucked into the mob violence that so often erupts around highly publicised cases if you allowed yourself to express any such hatred.

    Too many targets, too many emotions for me at least to focus on a particular feeling like hatred.

    (I didn't click through on those links.)
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    I think hatred is a way for the human animal to overcome it's own inhibitions during times of fear, a way to turn the flight response into the fight response. I don't know that inhibitions against violence vs the urge to do violence have a lot to do with rational decision making; I've argued elsewhere that the satisfaction/pleasure felt at seeing someone we believe to be bad being hurt is real enough but a key element - the belief that the victim is deserving - requires no balance of evidence or rational examination. Accusation alone can be sufficient. The wrong religion, or sex, or ethnicity or nationality on top of accusation can be quite sufficient to turn dislike to hatred and turn an act that would otherwise cause revulsion into one that causes pleasure.

    I don't think evolution has managed to successfully wire the foundations of logical civil behavior into our brains - no surprise; flight is probably easy to wire in but it's going to be inadequate in the face of competition that fights and fight requires a way to turn fear from being inhibiting to being motivating. Hatred can do that. It can also dilute fear; hatred becoming a means of seeking allies and showing loyalty to a group, and amongst a hate motivated group the individual's fear are diminished.

    Social structures rather than brain wiring are needed to intervene in the decision making process, by inserting another fear - that of repercussions - into the process. That can give a little bit more room to get the intellect and reason in on the decision.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I really, really, really hate carrot cake. Corned beef also. Looks like I only hate food that tastes terrible, just because I don't know what shit tastes like. Yet if I had to I would eat lousy tasting food in extremis, like starving to death. So I think most people can stop hating something if their own welfare is at stake.
    How badly do you hate the things you hate; carrot cake for instance?
    Not enough to refuse it if my life depended on it. I hate religion also but I capitulate over certain things just so life can move on unfettered. Example: to get married in the Catholic church I had to sign a document saying I'd raise my kids in the faith. Well, since it meant nothing to me and any kids I have would be free to make their own religious choice then I signed just to keep the peace. Just made me hate religion more, still not worth killing somebody over.

    What might your response have been, supposing for a minute that someone surprised you by serving you carrot cake disguised as some other type of food, and you have already taken a mouthful
    I'd eat it, make a fuss, then have a good laugh. For me, the only logical reason for someone disguising carrot cake in my presence is they had beforehand knowledge of my distaste and were trying to provoke a reaction from me. It's a test, no reason to go to war.
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    maybe "hate" ain't the right word
    but
    I used to really be annoyed by the sound of the big V8 powerboats out on the lake(a fat spot in a dammed river actually)
    then
    one day while helping a friend pull his sail boat out of the water, I had backed the trailor into the water, and watched and waited as he manovered the boat into the channel.
    meanwhile, I was watching the people in a pod of those powerboats(the kind that you almost perch on rather than sit in) chatting and sharing a beer, when a friend(couple) of theirs motored up, and nosed into the pod. shouts of welcome as his engine was shut down, laughter, conversation, and good cheer
    A little while later, he said, "well, time to go have some fun", as his big engine came to life and he slowely backed out of the pod(put put put). When he reached mid channel, he turned the boat down streem, and hammered the engine and with a mighty roar was off spraying water and thundering away to the laughter, waves, shouts and joy of his friends still in the pod.
    Now, when I hear their noise, I think about just how much fun they were having with their toys, and smile.

    perspective matters
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    maybe "hate" ain't the right word
    There are a few words in the English language that when spoken (or written) add shock value to the conversation. Hate is one of them. It's very powerful and succinct. Too bad it's a negative. Although if I were to say I hate war then it's considered a positive except for war lovers I guess.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    I suppose this thread has come to the point where the ambiguity of the word hatred arises from the colloquial and casual use of it in our daily conversation. Will it be helpful if I narrow down the definition of the word hatred; directed to an object/subject that individuals feel an intense and severe revulsion and loathing for? An intense and powerful feeling of hostility for the object/subject that you are barely able to keep a lid on should the exposure to the stimuli that triggers it be sufficiently prolonged; easily bordering on rage (if it helps). Some possible examples include but not limited to the following;

    Hatred for political/ideological/religious extremism, anti-science movement, undeserved arrogance, willful ignorance, academic fraud/dishonesty, racial intolerance, gender discrimination, hate crimes, child abuse, objects of personal fear (heights, rats, spiders, etc).

    The object/subject that causes you a great deal of discomfort & anguish (those that you distinguish from a mild dislike for), some of which can be rationalized for their reasons, others possibly not. In short, "What do you Hate? And why do you hate it so much?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    I suppose this thread has come to the point where the ambiguity of the word hatred arises from the colloquial and casual use of it in our daily conversation. Will it be helpful if I narrow down the definition of the word hatred; directed to an object/subject that individuals feel an intense and severe revulsion and loathing for? An intense and powerful feeling of hostility for the object/subject that you are barely able to keep a lid on should the exposure to the stimuli that triggers it be sufficiently prolonged; easily bordering on rage (if it helps). Some possible examples include but not limited to the following;

    Hatred for political/ideological/religious extremism, anti-science movement, undeserved arrogance, willful ignorance, academic fraud/dishonesty, racial intolerance, gender discrimination, hate crimes, child abuse, objects of personal fear (heights, rats, spiders, etc).

    The object/subject that causes you a great deal of discomfort (those that you distinguish from a mild dislike for), some of which can be rationalized for their reasons, others possibly not.
    I feel an intense and severe revulsion and loathing as well as a powerful feeling of hostility for any object/subject which threatens me, any member of my family in any way. The greater the percieved threat, the greater the 'hatred of it.

    You say 'undeserved arrogance'... doe this mean some arrogance is deserved or warrented?
    Willful ignorance? but there is so much to know that it isn't possible, sometimes we have to choose to ignore something and concentrate on another... why would anybody get angry about it unless they were ignorant?
    Theres nothing wrong with discriminating between genders... though sometimes it can be hard to tell
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    You say 'undeserved arrogance'... doe this mean some arrogance is deserved or warrented?
    In hindsight, not one of my finest examples. But I do hope you managed to get the general idea from the rest of the examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Willful ignorance? but there is so much to know that it isn't possible, sometimes we have to choose to ignore something and concentrate on another... why would anybody get angry about it unless they were ignorant?
    The term willful ignorance differs from the standard definition of ignorance. It is comparable and similar to denialism if it helps clear things up. One example I can possibly offer is the stance taken by holocaust deniers.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Theres nothing wrong with discriminating between genders... though sometimes it can be hard to tell




    In any case, I did say that those can be some possible examples that people may harbor hatred for.
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    Yes you did get the general idea across and your examples were fine.

    I do think as I sated that all of the 'emotions' and reactions you described stem from a feeling of fear... do you agree with this?
    I think once this is understood then we can get to the real root of 'behaviours' that you described under hatred and understand them for what they are.

    What do you think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    I do think as I sated that all of the 'emotions' and reactions you described stem from a feeling of fear... do you agree with this?
    I have given this some thought before, but some evidence and examples I have came across does not point towards all feelings of hatred stemming from Fear alone, thus Hatred does not always stem from Fear.

    Friends and family of a murder/rape victim do not require fear to hate (and I mean; really Hate) the murderer(s)/rapist(s) responsible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    I do think as I sated that all of the 'emotions' and reactions you described stem from a feeling of fear... do you agree with this?
    I have given this some thought before, but some evidence and examples I have came across does not point towards all feelings of hatred stemming from Fear alone, thus Hatred does not always stem from Fear.

    Friends and family of a murder/rape victim do not require fear to hate (and I mean; really Hate) the murderer(s)/rapist(s) responsible.
    Thats an interesting point.

    But I think it is debatable. Grief might well stem from a fear of living without the loved one. Living without the support that they offered, the joy that they offered. Fear that we will never be as happy as we were. A scary prospect for us all, losing those that we love.

    Any other examples?
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Thats an interesting point.

    But I think it is debatable. Grief might well stem from a fear of living without the loved one. Living without the support that they offered, the joy that they offered. Fear that we will never be as happy as we were. A scary prospect for us all, losing those that we love.

    Any other examples?
    Well, fear can be one of the reasons for hatred, but I do not think we can conclude that hatred stems from it. That is why I have listed it down as one of the possible reasons for hatred.

    The purpose of this thread is to seek out objects/subjects of hatred, and if possible to find the reasons for hating it/them. So far, I have managed to narrow it down the reasons to the amount of and/or exposure to discomfort that these objects/subjects cause to the individual. As to why they cause discomfort & anguish; I have also managed to narrow it down to the value system the individuals hold and the lines they have drawn for themselves. By participating in this thread, I hope other participants will help in fine-tuning my understanding of this emotion.

    In a sense, my understanding of hatred has come to a point where I see it as a form of defense mechanism for the Self. Whether it is out of fear, self-interest, group-interest, or something else entirely, I have yet to be sure.
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    I would agree that it is a defense mechanism... and it is always born from the insecurity or fear created by the percieved threat.

    If you can come up with any examples where hatred doesn't stem from fear I would be very interested to consider them.

    Self interest is a different word but it is not a different reason for hatred... It's not self interest that makes you hate, it is fear that the things you are interested in having will not be yours and that without those things you are interested in, you will not be happy.

    I can't imagine a case of somebody hating without any fear underlying the apparent reasons for the hatred...
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    It's not self interest that makes you hate, it is fear that the things you are interested in having will not be yours and that without those things you are interested in, you will not be happy.
    I really disagree with that view. There are quite a few people that I've hated briefly, not because they've hurt or affected me or made me afraid in any way. I'd put them in the category of "bully" for ease of description even though they varied in how they displayed bullying behaviour.

    People who literally pick out someone from the group they work with (or they manage) because they've spotted some vulnerability. And then they get stuck in, and they'll continue the behaviour for months if they're not stopped. I often had people come to me for help - usually long after the situation had got way out of control. Seeing grown men or women weeping as they try to describe what's happened to them incites righteous rage unfailingly, and hatred occasionally. Even though I hardly knew any of the people involved.

    Same thing goes when you see people mistreating animals. You might be afraid of a half-starved, neglected dog, but the rage or hatred you feel is for the person who has so badly mistreated them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I recall an incident where I asked a car driver if he would mind parking his car not in the space reserved for disabled drivers. He refused in a disparaging way: "What does it matter to you. You're not disabled." From there the discussion went down hill.

    Why did I dislike that? On two levels: emotionally I was raised to be respectful of others and provide support to those in need; on a rational basis I see the survival value of inclusiveness and of rules that protect all members of society.
    Forgive me for taking so long in addressing this particular post. Pertaining to some of my recent understanding of the subject on Hatred, and posts by other participants, I have taken some time to give the subject a little more thought and it has led me to formulate the following question.

    "Would you say that your emotional integrity were somewhat comprised by the level and exposure of discomfort caused by the "car driver's" attitude of indifference towards the disabled and/or parking space allocated for them?"

    I guess what I am trying to find out is whether I am on the right track with the "discomfort" factor that I have brought up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    It's not self interest that makes you hate, it is fear that the things you are interested in having will not be yours and that without those things you are interested in, you will not be happy.
    I really disagree with that view. There are quite a few people that I've hated briefly, not because they've hurt or affected me or made me afraid in any way. I'd put them in the category of "bully" for ease of description even though they varied in how they displayed bullying behaviour.

    People who literally pick out someone from the group they work with (or they manage) because they've spotted some vulnerability. And then they get stuck in, and they'll continue the behaviour for months if they're not stopped. I often had people come to me for help - usually long after the situation had got way out of control. Seeing grown men or women weeping as they try to describe what's happened to them incites righteous rage unfailingly, and hatred occasionally. Even though I hardly knew any of the people involved.

    Same thing goes when you see people mistreating animals. You might be afraid of a half-starved, neglected dog, but the rage or hatred you feel is for the person who has so badly mistreated them.
    Yes ok... I'm seeing your point here. We can hate a bully who we are apparently not scared by.
    Often people might feel sadness at seeing the dog get hurt, and sadness at seeing this person with such rage or inability to care for the dog. We might act to teach the bully a lesson because we feel we are in a position to and that it is the best thing to do.
    But What causes the 'hate' of a bully? it could be that we are naturally idealists, and so we want a fair existence for all, especially ourselves. Seeing this kind of things makes us fear our ideals will never be acheived?
    Seeing violence might well cause us to relate to the victim and think 'what if that happened to me', 'what if somebody treated my dog or my child like that?'. 'I must do something becuase I hope that other good people will protect me from bullies iif ever I need it.'
    Even in this case of bully hating, I do think the hatred that might cause us to go as far as hurting a bully possibly, or at least stepping in to protect a victim... is born from a fear of what life would be like if we all went around acting like animals and bullies.

    Mind you, if you endanger yourself to help a victim this is also inspired but love, or empathy, for them. As well as fear that if you do nothing things will be worse.
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    What causes the 'hate' of a bully? it could be that we are naturally idealists, and so we want a fair existence for all, especially ourselves.
    I don't know about others. For me? I call it the big-sister-in-the-playground feeling. It's not thought through, it's instinctive.

    For people who don't have that instantly protective reaction, I wouldn't know how it might work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    What causes the 'hate' of a bully? it could be that we are naturally idealists, and so we want a fair existence for all, especially ourselves.
    I don't know about others. For me? I call it the big-sister-in-the-playground feeling. It's not thought through, it's instinctive.

    For people who don't have that instantly protective reaction, I wouldn't know how it might work.
    Ok... I can relate to your big sister sindrome. It seems to me like that big sis protective feeling you get is more to do with love for the victim, rather than hate for the bully.

    Personally I think I've stepped into a situation before where somebody is bullying somebody else... I didn't hate the bully though, I might have had some empathy with them. I still told them to leave the victim alone. I didn't hate them or feel like I needed to act out any hatred on them, because they didn't scare me. My protective action was pretty much instinctive, it just felt right to me to help. Had it been my brothers or sisters being bullied then I would have instintively felt rage, becuase I would fear that they would be damaged by the experience.

    On other ocassions I have been the victim of intimidation by people who I wasn't big enough or old enough to defend myself from. The prospect of getting hurt was scary, once I got out of that situation I was overcome with rage... I wanted that bully hurt, for a few moments I wanted him dead. That rage was born out of the fear I felt at the threat posed by the bully.

    In a way, our 'instincts' might be reactions that we have not considered at the point in time will feel those instincts... but they are an automatic result caused by all the things we do think about. Like if I went around thinking, life is dog eat dog, thats how it should be, then I wouldn't have instinctively want to help. I probably would have said 'who u think your bullying? give me your lunch money, then turned to the victim and said 'I just protected you, give me all your lunch money'. But becuase during my life I have been encouraged to be fair etc, thats why my instinctive reaction was a fair one. You're instinctive reaction to help was also because you have been taught that it isn't right... if you felt instinctive hatred for the bully alswell, then i would geuss it has something to do with the threat you percieved to yourself and your way of life, posed by this bullies actions... what do you think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I recall an incident where I asked a car driver if he would mind parking his car not in the space reserved for disabled drivers. He refused in a disparaging way: "What does it matter to you. You're not disabled." From there the discussion went down hill.

    Why did I dislike that? On two levels: emotionally I was raised to be respectful of others and provide support to those in need; on a rational basis I see the survival value of inclusiveness and of rules that protect all members of society.
    ....... I have taken some time to give the subject a little more thought and it has led me to formulate the following question.

    "Would you say that your emotional integrity were somewhat comprised by the level and exposure of discomfort caused by the "car driver's" attitude of indifference towards the disabled and/or parking space allocated for them?"
    Would you expand on this please, or put it in other words. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "emotional integrity". The indifference of the car driver did not cause me 'discomfort' it simply pissed me off. The subsequent downhill aspect of the conforntation was because it morphed into two alpha males having a territorial dispute. (In fairness that's how the car driver saw it from the outset.)
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    It seems to me like that big sis protective feeling you get is more to do with love for the victim,
    No love at all. See the earlier post.

    Even though I hardly knew any of the people involved.
    It's much the same as John's disabled parking reaction. Only for him there isn't even a disabled driver in the vicinity. No love required.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Curious thing about bullies brains
    maybe a continuum of involuntary laughter we all get from watching prat falls, or someone slipping on a bananna peal?
    but the brain of a bully reacts with pleasure when watching someone else in pain
    ............
    so
    maybe what we are calling "hating" a bully is a deeper revulsion that has to do with assuring the cohesiveness of community?
    ............
    I have long thought that (on average) men build houses, while women build communities. So the "big sister" syndrome fits well within that concept.
    and further, the "big sister" syndrome would be close to a polar opposite of the bully?
    Long ago and far away, an uncle advised me that when facing a bully, "Don't let him see your pain, and fight back hard and furious, and make him hurt"
    Maybe, that uncle had an intuitive insight into how a bully's mind functions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    "Would you say that your emotional integrity were somewhat comprised by the level and exposure of discomfort caused by the "car driver's" attitude of indifference towards the disabled and/or parking space allocated for them?"
    Would you expand on this please, or put it in other words. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "emotional integrity". The indifference of the car driver did not cause me 'discomfort' it simply pissed me off. The subsequent downhill aspect of the conforntation was because it morphed into two alpha males having a territorial dispute. (In fairness that's how the car driver saw it from the outset.)
    In your earlier post, you'd gave an insight for your dislike, and mentioned that there were two levels in which you saw it; an emotional basis & a rational basis. Do bear with me a moment as I attempt to expand on what I have understood so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I recall an incident where I asked a car driver if he would mind parking his car not in the space reserved for disabled drivers. He refused in a disparaging way: "What does it matter to you. You're not disabled." From there the discussion went down hill.

    Why did I dislike that? On two levels: emotionally I was raised to be respectful of others and provide support to those in need; on a rational basis I see the survival value of inclusiveness and of rules that protect all members of society.
    My understanding may be slightly or way off here, but I am under the impression that our individual value system (usually) operates on two such levels. A value system that operates and functions through thought and action by way of the emotions we experience as an reinforcing mechanism for our behavior; acquired, learnt, and takes shape and form as our life progresses. When these values are seemingly violated or reaffirmed, we experience a variety of different positive or negative emotions as an involuntary(?) response (either mild or strong ones).

    (Taking a leap here) I am making an educated guess that the incident you have experienced triggered an emotional response, one that spurred your initial conversation with the car driver which later turned into a "confrontation" when neither side (you & the car driver) were willing to back down from their position (of you dropping the matter after voicing it; and the car driver relinquishing the reserved disabled parking space that he had taken). An alternative outcome of that particular incident was that you could have remained silent and went about your business, but you did not and instead, reacted to the stimuli (that caused the discomfort) from the situation you have witnessed. That is what I have managed to gather by your "a strong dislike for for smugness that disdains the weak and helpless".

    In all honestly, I'm not sure if the use of the term "emotional integrity" is correct or even appropriate. I suppose I could have made more sense by saying the "integrity of your emotional state" in it's place. I hope I am able to give you a general sense of what I meant, because I am still trying to articulate my thoughts down into a string of words to make sense of it all.
    Last edited by scoobydoo1; September 12th, 2012 at 09:46 AM.
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    Did you mean John's emotional stability? As in his usual emotional state was affected by the man's disdain for the people who might need a space...
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Did you mean John's emotional stability? As in his usual emotional state was affected by the man's disdain for the people who might need a space...
    Well, No. Because the term emotional stability or instability means something else entirely, and that isn't what I meant. It would be wrong and inaccurate to say that whenever someone becomes irritated by some form of discomfort, he/she becomes or is emotional unstable.

    I do not know how else to describe what I meant, besides combining the definitions of both the words integrity and emotional state. Think of it as a "a nick on the armor" that does not impair the whole if it helps.
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    How would you define emotional integrity? Integrity implies righteousness, honesty. In my mind emotional integrity would mean that your emotions are valid... From your sentence I pick up a sense that john's emotions somehow lacked integrity, that his response was somehow a chink in his armour? That he wouldn't really have felt that way if he was a perfect emotionally intelligent specimen? And you wonder if it was discomfort which caused this minor step down from emotional excellence?

    By emotional stability I meant, john is in his usual emotional state when he does his shopping... thats his stable state. Which could be made unstable by unusual unexpected factors which causes a different emotional state.

    Emotional stability, to me, would mean: the ability or characteristic of having a stable and consistent emotional state regardless of stimuli.
    Which would be a drone or a zombie of somekind. As the nature of emotion is unstable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    How would you define emotional integrity?
    Integrity relating to the wholeness, completeness, unassailed condition or state of. Similar in usage as structural integrity.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    From your sentence I pick up a sense that john's emotions somehow lacked integrity, that his response was somehow a chink in his armour?
    To clarify, the "nick" caused by the incident. I was not implying what you have said above.
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    I don't see how the car drivers attitude of indifference or the discomfort it gives can comprise John's emotional completeness... or even what emotional completeness is.

    "Would you say that your emotional integrity were somewhat comprised by the level and exposure of discomfort caused by the "car driver's" attitude of indifference towards the disabled and/or parking space allocated for them?"

    His total state of emotion would be comprised by the total amount of thoughts and factors, conscious and unconscious, that are playing a part, including the car drivers indifference.
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    Sigh... Can someone who understands what I meant give it a shot?
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    Good luck with that one... I'm not sure there are many mystics who post in here
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    Still working on understanding the ramifications. Perhaps tomorrow.
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    Please accept my apologies John, I've just notice a grave typo that may have twisted the meaning of the question I've asked you. The following is a corrected version of that question in hopes that it will clears things up a little more.

    "Would you say that your emotional integrity were somewhat comprised compromised by the level and exposure of discomfort caused by the "car driver's" attitude of indifference towards the disabled and/or parking space allocated for them?"
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    Drivers who are just flat-out reckless really piss me off. I'm sure many of you have had plenty of experiences where you're on a highway and more-or-less have had to pull into the breakdown lane, and slow down to about about 50 km/h, because some jerk decides they don't care if you're coming - they're going to the pass car in front of them regardlessy, because they need to go an extra 10-20 km/h NOW.
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    Long ago and far away, I was cruising west on a 2 lane highway on my old harley, going east was a long line of automobiles.
    Near the back of the pack, a big buick pulled out to pass. His headlights rose as he stomped the gas on the big engine and he began accelerating toward me in my lane. I flashed the light and waved my arms, trying to get his attention. Perceiving that I had failed in that, I bagan to hit the brakes and downshift, at at the last possible moment, took the hog off-road and into the ditch. As the buick came by me, the driver locked up all 4 wheels, and skidded to a stop in the ditch behind me, leapt from his car and came running over to me, asking "are you all right?" As he continued to apologize prufusely, he helped me right the bike and push it back onto the road's shoulder, saying "I didn't even see you, I was looking for another car, and your bike just didn't register".

    Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Long ago and far away, I was cruising west on a 2 lane highway on my old harley, going east was a long line of automobiles.
    Near the back of the pack, a big buick pulled out to pass. His headlights rose as he stomped the gas on the big engine and he began accelerating toward me in my lane. I flashed the light and waved my arms, trying to get his attention. Perceiving that I had failed in that, I bagan to hit the brakes and downshift, at at the last possible moment, took the hog off-road and into the ditch. As the buick came by me, the driver locked up all 4 wheels, and skidded to a stop in the ditch behind me, leapt from his car and came running over to me, asking "are you all right?" As he continued to apologize prufusely, he helped me right the bike and push it back onto the road's shoulder, saying "I didn't even see you, I was looking for another car, and your bike just didn't register".

    Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.
    That's a good point. There are exceptions. That must have been a terrifying moment - espcially being on a motorcycle and all.

    I still hate it when people do that though. I've also seen people people pass long lines of vehicles along the shoulder (when it's wide enough) because they can't pass by the oncoming lane. Not exactly highway speed that time though.. If I recall the max was 70 km/h.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1
    Hi Flick,I've just read some of your posts in the Moon Hoax thread, and would like to extend an invitation to you to express some of your feelings on the Hatred thread in the behaviour & psychology sub forum that I've created, if you are willing. It's basically an informal study thread I've created there to understand more about the subject of hatred, and how objects/subjects (such as annoyance & irritation) can evolve/turns into hatred. If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to hear some of your frustrations in that thread for the purpose of studying your annoyance from the Moon Hoax thread.HatredRegard,Scooby
    Okay, scoobs. (zoinks?)

    I don't know what exactly you want me to relate, but I can certainly add that I am in no small part frustrated by someone diminishing the accomplishments of their betters simply for attention. I certainly wouldn't apply the word 'hate' to my feelings, though. I get mad about those people, but I don't hate them. There are, in fact, very few things that a person can do to make me hate them.

    For the Moon Hoax Nonsense thread, I was frustrated from a long day and I let it get the better of me. I'm just glad Kalster didn't hit me with a ruler.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Okay, scoobs. (zoinks?)

    I don't know what exactly you want me to relate, but I can certainly add that I am in no small part frustrated by someone diminishing the accomplishments of their betters simply for attention. I certainly wouldn't apply the word 'hate' to my feelings, though. I get mad about those people, but I don't hate them. There are, in fact, very few things that a person can do to make me hate them.

    For the Moon Hoax Nonsense thread, I was frustrated from a long day and I let it get the better of me. I'm just glad Kalster didn't hit me with a ruler.
    Thanks for dropping by Flick. Before we start, I'd just like to say that none of what we will discuss and bring up are meant to be personal. They are for for intent and purposes just an examination of the human condition, particularly that of the thread topic. Feel free to offer some of your own insights on the subject if you are able to, and for as long as it can capture your interest.


    I've come to notice through observation that people coming from different backgrounds, in different professions, and particularly with different interests tend to exhibit a lower tolerance towards certain situations in their daily lives that may conflict with their own interests. A lower tolerance not necessarily of the individuals per se, but at the actions that that does not seem to be aligned with our own interest and values. A disembodied object of intense dislike if you will. An example may be a passionate physician who may "hate" people who do not take the best care of their own health; a person with a heart condition who still favors having a drink or two on a regular basis, but possibly should not due to his/her heart condition.

    Pertaining to a science orientated forum where people with interests in the various subjects, come together to discuss and share their knowledge and queries with others people, do you have any particular feelings towards some of the following I've given examples for below?

    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Hatred for political/ideological/religious extremism, anti-science movement, undeserved arrogance, willful ignorance, academic fraud/dishonesty, racial intolerance, gender discrimination, hate crimes, child abuse, objects of personal fear (heights, rats, spiders, etc). "
    Do any of these strike a particular cord in yourself that you may personally classify as hatred, or if you do not consider it as such, then perhaps a lowered tolerance for?
    Last edited by scoobydoo1; September 14th, 2012 at 10:24 PM.
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    Anti-science? I suppose the closest I come to hate would be towards those shameless people who promote anti-vaccine nonsense.

    Every time I hear of a baby dying of pertussis I get the usual rush of sadness mixed with other emotions .... but what remains is a burning loathing for some truly wicked people.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Anti-science? I suppose the closest I come to hate would be towards those shameless people who promote anti-vaccine nonsense.

    Every time I hear of a baby dying of pertussis I get the usual rush of sadness mixed with other emotions .... but what remains is a burning loathing for some truly wicked people.
    What about those people who do not know the "science", but still preach it through the masses it through belief alone? Would you consider those sort of people to be misled, harboring some disappointment at some one or entity that started it all? How far along will this phenomena have to go before you come to hate it or the people involved?

    If I were to insert the word "discomfort" into the equation; discomfort that it causes you psychologically, and the discomfort (or great harm) that it causes in real life to real people who may have been affected by it... how much discomfort will it take to gnaw at your patience and for it to turn into some form of hatred or at all? Just one, two, or three? Is there a number?
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    What about those people who do not know the "science", but still preach it through the masses it through belief alone?
    Perhaps you're not familiar with the gross dishonesty and vile behaviour of some of the leading figures here. "Through belief alone" won't wash. Health officials, local doctors, pediatricians and epidemiologists supply lots of information when they see this kind of rubbish being published. But these people not only ignore scientific evidence, they actively push homeopathic and other useless preparations and tell people that "supporting the immune system" is all that's required. And they have no evidence that the potions and nostrums they sell have any significant effect on immune systems anyway.

    These people are beneath contempt. They also encourage people to avoid proper medical treatment for cancer and other serious illnesses. It's not only babies that die because of these people.

    If I were to insert the word "discomfort" into the equation; discomfort that it causes you psychologically
    No, this doesn't work for me. I think you're trying to make every passionate conviction originate in some kind of private personal matter. Hate or rage or loathing or scorn are not the inverse of falling in love. To fall in love you need direct personal contact - even if it's long distance through letter writing.

    I don't need any personal contact with people who impoverish elderly people by fraud to feel loathing. None of us need personal relationships with greedy bankers or currency traders to scorn their so-called skills when they can bring down the economies of most of the world. We don't need any knowledge at all about those awful people running firetrap factories in Pakistan (or anywhere else) to feel overwhelming rage at their callous exploitation of impoverished people - who we also don't know.

    If I'm wrong about the point you're getting at then you need to rephrase it somehow.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Perhaps you're not familiar with the gross dishonesty and vile behaviour of some of the leading figures here. "Through belief alone" won't wash. Health officials, local doctors, pediatricians and epidemiologists supply lots of information when they see this kind of rubbish being published. But these people not only ignore scientific evidence, they actively push homeopathic and other useless preparations and tell people that "supporting the immune system" is all that's required. And they have no evidence that the potions and nostrums they sell have any significant effect on immune systems anyway.
    Erm, actually, I was referring to the members within the general public who believes in these sort of stuff (despite being supplied with the correct information by health officials, pediatricians, etc) and continue to spread their beliefs to other gullible people (who may readily gobble up all these nonsense) within reach of their circle. Just to clarify, I wasn't hoping to push the "through belief alone" argument; I'm just highlighting that there are people who operate on that level naturally/instinctively(?) on a regular basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    These people are beneath contempt. They also encourage people to avoid proper medical treatment for cancer and other serious illnesses. It's not only babies that die because of these people.
    Agreed. One would think that with modern advances in medical science and education ought to have kept all these to a minimal, but there seems to be a select group who are just distrustful of authoritative figures disseminating facts from the professionals. To make things worst, they seem able to get other people to believe in what they are selling. Not that the numbers of their converts count for anything, but the amount of avoidable harm they may do to those whom they are responsible for (children for example), makes it particularly sad and condemnable from an observer point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    No, this doesn't work for me. I think you're trying to make every passionate conviction originate in some kind of private personal matter. Hate or rage or loathing or scorn are not the inverse of falling in love. To fall in love you need direct personal contact - even if it's long distance through letter writing.

    I don't need any personal contact with people who impoverish elderly people by fraud to feel loathing. None of us need personal relationships with greedy bankers or currency traders to scorn their so-called skills when they can bring down the economies of most of the world. We don't need any knowledge at all about those awful people running firetrap factories in Pakistan (or anywhere else) to feel overwhelming rage at their callous exploitation of impoverished people - who we also don't know.
    I may have given off the wrong impression if that was message you have gotten. I apologize. From your reply above, I've already gotten the sense that you have a loathing for the people responsible for promoting anti-vaccination nonsense. Not merely because anti-vaccination is utter rubbish, but for the harm it does to those who do not know any better, and to those who not have any say in what sort of medical treatment/vaccinations their parents decides for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    If I'm wrong about the point you're getting at then you need to rephrase it somehow.
    I was actually hoping to find out how prolonged an or repeated experience of discomfort will be required (perhaps constantly gnawing at your patience, testing your tolerance) for something that may have been a milder form of dislike to possibly turn into hatred.
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    something that may have been a milder form of dislike to possibly turn into hatred.
    OK. I think that's more like fed up or frustrated or boooored than hate.

    I can see how a mild dislike for a food as a child could turn into lifelong hate if it was forced on you often enough. )
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Hatred for political/ideological/religious extremism, anti-science movement, undeserved arrogance, willful ignorance, academic fraud/dishonesty, racial intolerance, gender discrimination, hate crimes, child abuse, objects of personal fear (heights, rats, spiders, etc). "
    Do any of these strike a particular cord in yourself that you may personally classify as hatred, or if you do not consider it as such, then perhaps a lowered tolerance for?
    I don't hate the things I fear. I love spiders, but I'm still scared of them. Even harmless ones.

    I also don't hate anyone for ignorance. People who are racist or whatever the religious version of racist would be (religioust? ) are just ignorant. I can't hold that against them. I feel bad for them because their ignorance prohibits them from truly experiencing the world.

    However, people who are willfully cruel and malicious, especially people who do harm to animals and children, earn my hate. I try to avoid the eye for an eye approach to justice, but I see no use for pedophiles on this planet. Fire them out of a cannon into the Sun for all I care.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Anti-science? I suppose the closest I come to hate would be towards those shameless people who promote anti-vaccine nonsense.

    Every time I hear of a baby dying of pertussis I get the usual rush of sadness mixed with other emotions .... but what remains is a burning loathing for some truly wicked people.
    I find this post interesting... I'm unfamiliar with these 'wicked' people and why they promote this anti vaccine ideas.

    Personally, though i'm not fully aware of the reasons for vaccines, I would tend to think that 'healthy evolution' would require the organism to be able to survive nature without too much intervention from 'science'.

    Bearing in mind our prevailing theories on evolution... How can we say that vaccinating every baby is going to give our species a healthy or natural evolution in life?

    What will happen if one day the medical industry completely fails... Will people still grow healthily even if their ancestors had been used to vaccinations for generations?

    There would be more baby deaths if we don't vaccinate, so we are told, but it is natural that the weak die out... Thats the kindest thing in the long run, thats how nature keeps a healthy balance. Thats how nature ensures the fittest do the best in evolution. It may seem wicked to some, but in the long run it seems to me that nature has to be cruel to be kind.

    In tribal comunities they obviously don't vaccinate there children, yet the comunities do florish.

    What is so wicked about letting organisms take their chances in evolution?

    Nobody wants to lose a child... a truely horrible experience surely.
    Evolution is supposed to be natures way of making sure the strongest/healthiest populate the earth. If we vaccinate, are we overiding natures mechanisms? Does this cause over population of the earth? does it mean we will gradually evolve into a species that cannot survive without the scientific knowledge of vaccination?
    If yes.. Are these two things less wicked than letting nature take it's corse? I think it could be said that in the long run, vaccinating might be the biggest evil.

    It's just an alternative view... I'm not convinced eitherway.
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    Personally, though i'm not fully aware of the reasons for vaccines, I would tend to think that 'healthy evolution' would require the organism to be able to survive nature without too much intervention from 'science'.
    Evolution cares nothing for the survival of individual members of any species. Nor does it care if individuals survive an illness but do so severely impaired by blindness, deafness, paralysis or mental defect.

    Just how many non-interventions do you want? The only way your proposal works is if we also abandon contraception. "Nature's way" for humans is for women to produce an infant every couple of years or so and for a couple, several or even all of those children to die before their fifth birthdays. Looking at it in species or family survival terms, it really doesn't matter if any particular pair of parents have no surviving children because they usually have siblings who manage to have one or two surviving children. Once again, nature doesn't care if they don't anyway.

    Why do you think we no longer have the large residential schools for the blind and deaf that we had 30+ years ago? That's because of vaccination against German measles. So many women who might have been infected when pregnant no longer produce infants who are blind or deaf or both.

    One of the best things "nature" has given us is intelligence. That intelligence allows us to have rich social lives and to care for our families. It also allows us to learn about illness and how to treat it and how to circumvent it or avoid it altogether. Put that all together and we can have small families where we can expect our one or two children to survive to adulthood. Women are not exhausted by constant child-bearing and breast feeding and grief for dead children. Fathers don't have to dig so many small graves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Evolution is supposed to be natures way of making sure the strongest/healthiest populate the earth. If we vaccinate, are we overiding natures mechanisms? Does this cause over population of the earth? does it mean we will gradually evolve into a species that cannot survive without the scientific knowledge of vaccination?
    If yes.. Are these two things less wicked than letting nature take it's corse? I think it could be said that in the long run, vaccinating might be the biggest evil.

    It's just an alternative view... I'm not convinced eitherway.
    It is an alternative view with little or no scientific or ethical validity. Still, I must give you 10 out of 10 for consistency.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Personally, though i'm not fully aware of the reasons for vaccines, I would tend to think that 'healthy evolution' would require the organism to be able to survive nature without too much intervention from 'science'.
    Evolution cares nothing for the survival of individual members of any species. Nor does it care if individuals survive an illness but do so severely impaired by blindness, deafness, paralysis or mental defect.

    Just how many non-interventions do you want? The only way your proposal works is if we also abandon contraception. "Nature's way" for humans is for women to produce an infant every couple of years or so and for a couple, several or even all of those children to die before their fifth birthdays. Looking at it in species or family survival terms, it really doesn't matter if any particular pair of parents have no surviving children because they usually have siblings who manage to have one or two surviving children. Once again, nature doesn't care if they don't anyway.

    Why do you think we no longer have the large residential schools for the blind and deaf that we had 30+ years ago? That's because of vaccination against German measles. So many women who might have been infected when pregnant no longer produce infants who are blind or deaf or both.

    One of the best things "nature" has given us is intelligence. That intelligence allows us to have rich social lives and to care for our families. It also allows us to learn about illness and how to treat it and how to circumvent it or avoid it altogether. Put that all together and we can have small families where we can expect our one or two children to survive to adulthood. Women are not exhausted by constant child-bearing and breast feeding and grief for dead children. Fathers don't have to dig so many small graves.
    Firstly Adelady thank you for giving me a mature response, especially considering you feel so strongly about this issue.
    I didn't think my post came across as a 'proposal'... I was just looking for more info on the subject and 'food for thought' which your response has given.

    In the case of german measles... which is one of the few things I Know we vaccinate against, I would completely agree it is correct to vaccinate. German measles is a nasty man made virus... it's man's fault, not nature's, nature has nothing to do with it... is that correct?
    Are there any vaccinations against complete natural problems that man has no hand in creating?

    German measles... a great example of how our intteligence has given us such a superior existance than mother earth provides. My father was not vaccinated against german measles and as a child he looked out of his curtain for a second, the sunlight damaged one of his eyes, he was still a fine artist in later life.

    I wasn't aware that if we didn't vaccinate then women would need to be constantly bearing children... do you have any stats on the diference in child mortality rates between vaccinated and non vaccinated cultures?
    In unvaccinated communities the women aren't constantly bearing children are they?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Evolution is supposed to be natures way of making sure the strongest/healthiest populate the earth. If we vaccinate, are we overiding natures mechanisms? Does this cause over population of the earth? does it mean we will gradually evolve into a species that cannot survive without the scientific knowledge of vaccination?
    If yes.. Are these two things less wicked than letting nature take it's corse? I think it could be said that in the long run, vaccinating might be the biggest evil.

    It's just an alternative view... I'm not convinced eitherway.
    It is an alternative view with little or no scientific or ethical validity. Still, I must give you 10 out of 10 for consistency.
    I take back my last comment... it isn't an alternative view at all, it's just a series of questions designed to gain further insight into the subject of vaccinations. I admit I must have been to tired when I called it an alternative view, which it clearly isn't.

    Still I must give you 10 out of 10 for observation, an excellent application of common sense in your last post.

    Heres some more scientific stuff about the negative affects of vaccines... but then it obviously won't be considered science by you, as it doesn't fit in with your already held beleifs.


    Study on the negative affects of vaccination found in dogs.
    Science of Vaccine Damage

    You won't like this one... must be a conspiracy website. And ofcourse, conspiracies do not exist.
    Addiction Vaccines: Scientists Use Human Experimentation to Advance Transhumanist Agenda Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

    Here's some evidence warning against the more virulent adapted virus that become immune to the immunisation:
    Vaccine research shows vigilance needed against evolution of more-virulent malaria

    I stated clearly that I did not know the science regarding this topic and was keen to learn. A quick google search gave me a few articals that speak against certain vaccinations, I'm pretty confident there will be more out there... who knows john, maybe you can guide me to a proper impartial scientific source of information? that would be a first.

    Where does your ethical and scientific knowledge of the subject come from? pharmacutical corporations?
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    [I stated clearly that I did not know the science regarding this topic and was keen to learn.
    Admirable objective. How did you seek to address it? Ah yes,
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    A quick google search gave me a few articals that speak against certain vaccinations, I'm pretty confident there will be more out there...
    A quick google search on the moon landing hoax will produce more than a few articles speaking in favour of it, but all equally ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    ... who knows john, maybe you can guide me to a proper impartial scientific source of information? that would be a first.
    Unfotunately your definition of impartial appears to be something that agrees with your preconceptions. Rather than using google, you really need to source through Google Scholar or Pub Med.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    ...Where does your ethical and scientific knowledge of the subject come from? pharmacutical corporations?
    You just have to disagree with the majority don't you. Rebellion is a meritorious thing in a dictatorship, it's bloody tiresome as an expression of angst.
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    I only did that non impartial research to provide some 'science' to satisfy you. The moon landing may have a lot of ridiculous info on google... were the links I provided ridiculous? thats the question.

    I certainly don't have to disagree with the majority... I tend to disagree with big bussinesses and some of their activities are worthy of suspicion IMO. You percieve rebellion but im not sure you got that perception from reading my post in this thread. My post wasn't rebellious, it was a query.


    Who is the majority anyway? you? Ijust found adelady's comment interesting and wanted to discuss it... rebellion? wth?
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    P.S the only angst I feel in relation to vaccines is that I might have to make a decision on weather to vaccinate my own children oneday... I feel anxious to gain a better understanding.

    I couldn't care less if you find it tiresome or not ol boy.


    As for disagreeing with the majority... I would only do that if I lived in a democracy where the majority are lead like lambs to the slaughter. Rebellion is not an admirable thing in a dictatorship where the dictator does the right thing by the people. Have you been conditioned to beleive dictators are all evil or was this comment just a careless oversight on your part?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I don't hate the things I fear. I love spiders, but I'm still scared of them. Even harmless ones.
    Different people handle fear in different ways. Some eventually grow to hate the object of their fears due to the amount of discomfort it causes them. Others manage their fears in a more controlled manner; such as attempts to desensitize themselves with regulated exposure; such as I do with my own fear of heights. Since there are varying degrees of fears, I suppose people with true phobias (which causes extreme anxiety and apprehension) are likely to really hate them (the object of their fears) due to the amount of discomfort it causes. I should also mention that since different personality-types determine how individuals manage the objects of their fears; some have elected to hate even objects of fear that causes merely a mild discomfort for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    However, people who are willfully cruel and malicious, especially people who do harm to animals and children, earn my hate. I try to avoid the eye for an eye approach to justice, but I see no use for pedophiles on this planet. Fire them out of a cannon into the Sun for all I care.
    So, basically people with ASPD and psychopaths who usually possess a very different set of values and violates/breaks societal norms and laws does it for you personally. I think many (including myself) share a similar view, simply because of how disruptive and possibly harmful these people are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Different people handle fear in different ways. Some eventually grow to hate the object of their fears due to the amount of discomfort it causes them. Others manage their fears in a more controlled manner; such as attempts to desensitize themselves with regulated exposure; such as I do with my own fear of heights. Since there are varying degrees of fears, I suppose people with true phobias (which causes extreme anxiety and apprehension) are likely to really hate them (the object of their fears) due to the amount of discomfort it causes. I should also mention that since different personality-types determine how individuals manage the objects of their fears; some have elected to hate even objects of fear that causes merely a mild discomfort for them.
    I'm liking your thinking on this now scooby.
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    I wasn't aware that if we didn't vaccinate then women would need to be constantly bearing children... do you have any stats on the diference in child mortality rates between vaccinated and non vaccinated cultures?
    How do you think the world human population stayed below 2 billion, as it was when I was born, when contraception was virtually unobtainable for all but a privileged few of the world's population? Women had children at a pretty steady rate for a large part of their adult lives unless they were part of a culture that restricted them to late marriage. Those children died like flies in epidemics unless they were extremely lucky. That's natural population control.

    If you want an average of 2 healthy children per woman to survive to not quite maintain population and you don't control pertussis (whooping cough), diphtheria, tuberculosis, measles, mumps, rubella, smallpox, polio, chickenpox, then many women have to have seven or more children just to finish up with that average of 2 healthy survivors. Remember, all through time there's usually 10 to 20% of women who are infertile or never marry, so those who do have children must average more than 2.

    Look at the overall death rate from infectious diseases in the US in figure 1. Achievements in Public Health, 1900-1999: Control of Infectious Diseases

    For more details of age at death and particular diseases look at figures 3 & 4 here. JAMA Network | JAMA: The Journal of the American Medical Association | Trends in Infectious Disease Mortality in the United States During the 20th Century

    We've banished smallpox from the face of the earth - one of the greatest scientific achievements of the 20th century - and we're almost there with polio. If we try hard enough, we can do the same for other illnesses with no non-human reservoir like measles, mumps and rubella.

    "Natural" is a very appealing word, but it's pretty brutal in its unrestricted application. Illness, disability and death of children and grief of their families are things we have some power to minimise. We should use it.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I wasn't aware that if we didn't vaccinate then women would need to be constantly bearing children... do you have any stats on the diference in child mortality rates between vaccinated and non vaccinated cultures?
    How do you think the world human population stayed below 2 billion, as it was when I was born, when contraception was virtually unobtainable for all but a privileged few of the world's population? Women had children at a pretty steady rate for a large part of their adult lives unless they were part of a culture that restricted them to late marriage. Those children died like flies in epidemics unless they were extremely lucky. That's natural population control.

    If you want an average of 2 healthy children per woman to survive to not quite maintain population and you don't control pertussis (whooping cough), diphtheria, tuberculosis, measles, mumps, rubella, smallpox, polio, chickenpox, then many women have to have seven or more children just to finish up with that average of 2 healthy survivors. Remember, all through time there's usually 10 to 20% of women who are infertile or never marry, so those who do have children must average more than 2.

    Look at the overall death rate from infectious diseases in the US in figure 1. Achievements in Public Health, 1900-1999: Control of Infectious Diseases

    For more details of age at death and particular diseases look at figures 3 & 4 here. JAMA Network | JAMA: The Journal of the American Medical Association | Trends in Infectious Disease Mortality in the United States During the 20th Century

    We've banished smallpox from the face of the earth - one of the greatest scientific achievements of the 20th century - and we're almost there with polio. If we try hard enough, we can do the same for other illnesses with no non-human reservoir like measles, mumps and rubella.

    "Natural" is a very appealing word, but it's pretty brutal in its unrestricted application. Illness, disability and death of children and grief of their families are things we have some power to minimise. We should use it.
    It was 2billion when you were born! thats a mad thought! wow... I mean wow, thats some kind of boom. Scary thought, makes Hans what his name's presentation and prediction that population will level off at 10billion seem more far fetched than I first thought... though don't get me wrong, his box upon box demonstration was powerful stuff.

    Firstly Adelady I don't see any reason to maintain the population as it is... I thought the concensus is that our population is putting too much strain on the earth's natural resources already. But ofcourse child mortality is a hard thing to deal with and none of us want that.

    I think we'r going to need to look well beyond america and the last century to get a clearer picture of the 'natural condition', though we may not be able to state what is natural these days. America has to be the worst single example of a natural place, it's history is riddled with foreign invasion, killing of natives, importation of foreign people from all over the globe, probably inbreeding, capitolism and corruption. I know thats a bold statement but c'mon, it's true. I note that during the influenza epidemic in the 1918, it was only 1% of deaths per 100,000 due to diseases. Thats not massive.

    2 out of 7 is by my calculations a 29% survival rate... I doubt this to be true in most places. See this report (page 4, forword) which states child mortality in developing countries is more like 40%, so thats a 60% survival rate, and that's including many factors, not just lack of immunisation. http://idl-bnc.idrc.ca/dspace/bitstr...69/1/28469.pdf

    Sort out the other factors and that rate without imunisations still could increase a good 10 or 20% quite easily I imagine. I must admit I need to do more research into this. 20% would still be high. Whats the current child mortality rates in places like UK I wonder...


    Well, its better than I thought... but stats dont tell the whole story and this data doesn't talk about immunisations, though im sure they play a part.

    "pertussis (whooping cough), diphtheria, tuberculosis, measles, mumps, rubella, smallpox, polio, chickenpox" Just out of morbid curiosity, how many of these diseases came from a laboratory? How many of these diseases are present in tribal comunities?
    Any of these that are man made, i agree we need to undo the damage... those that are not man made, we also need to adress. I would prefer to find ways of living more healthily and restricting behaviours that lead to contamination of persons, than to take risks with immunisations that might or might not do harm in the short term, such as maybe weaken the immune system (is one thing i've heard suggested), and who knows what in the long term?

    I don't disagree with anything you say, we should fight diseases if we can... but I need to look into specific diseases we are vaccinated against as children, and study how these diseases are spread, how they can be combated with healthy living etc etc. I also need to find out about the effects of vaccination, on individuals as well as accumalated effects over generations, before I am ready to agree that vaccination is the best way.

    One thing about our amazingly complex and intelligent species is that we adapt really well and really quickly, I still have the idea that in the long run, it could well be best to let our bodies get used to some of these viruses... we are after all super organisms that have accumalated many 'parasites' that are now essential parts of us, bacterias forming symbiotic relation ships with our body that we now really on.

    What I want to look into next is isolated tribal peoples and diseases/mortality rates from diseases that they experience, though how there can be a scientific or robust accademic study of isolated peoples in beyond me. Also I want to look into the origin and nature of the contageous diseases we are currently immunising our children against, also the vaccines themselves I need to know more about, but most of them are probably relatively new aren't they? how will we know all the effects they might have?

    The graphs from u.s show a declining trend... adding chlorine to the water does nothing to change the trend (except from a little rise in mortality), penicilin does little to change the trend for better or worse by the looks of that graph.

    We have seen a massive increase in the % of heart disease and cancer... we know or think we know some of the causes of thes increases. What if? just what if vaccines might have something to do with it? I mean where the hell did cancer come from? and heart disease is probably more from diet than smoking right? With some cultural tweaks we might be able to do more good than with vaccines.

    Ofcourse the pharmacuticals are searching for a jab to cure cancer and heart disease... but wouldn't it be better if we sorted the problems that cause these diseases? like sort out the fast food chains and supermarkets, sort out the argricultural practices and take a look at all the radiation we'r saturating ourselves with these days.

    Anyway, i've gone on too long... I will continue to try learning about all this, though i'm not sure it will be easy to get the hard facts.
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    pertussis (whooping cough), diphtheria, tuberculosis, measles, mumps, rubella, smallpox, polio, chickenpox" Just out of morbid curiosity, how many of these diseases came from a laboratory? How many of these diseases are present in tribal comunities?
    Absolutely none!

    In existing tribal communities that have never had contact with the rest of the world, probably none. Just like indigenous Australians and Americans were, they could be wiped out from mere contact with 'modern' people. Nowadays, people who venture into remote regions ensure that they're immunised against every possible disease, so they're much less likely to transmit infections. (Though white settlers weren't averse to helping the process along with smallpox infected blankets and the like, the huge reductions in indigenous populations were mainly due to simple exposure to diseases, like smallpox and measles, that their immune systems had never seen before.)

    These diseases are infectious by fairly hard to avoid mechanisms. Principally, aerosolised by sufferers coughing or sneezing, direct contact with material from the skin, blood, saliva and the rest, indirect by infected people's hands transferring virus to surfaces, faecal contamination - I know, eeewwww - but it's very hard to avoid some such contamination, and in places with no proper sewage systems it's impossible to avoid. Vaccination's the only way in poor communities.

    most of them are probably relatively new aren't they? how will we know all the effects they might have?
    The main effect they have is to allow us to live long enough to die when we're much older, of something else. I realise you've been listening to a couple of addled conspiracy enthusiasts (Alex Jones being one of the worst) but there's nothing really mysterious or strange about vaccination.

    It's well known that having a mild case of most of these illnesses will give people some resistance to another exposure. Some even give you lifelong immunity, others for a few years. Pertussis is the classic here - we now know that children who've been vaccinated fully as babies need boosters at around 10-14 years old. Medical researchers have discovered that you can get the immunity from just having the merest hint of the disease, so long as that hint gives the immune system enough of a nudge to behave as though it's had full exposure. Most vaccines don't have whole virus or bacteria in them - they just have selected proteins from the surface of those molecules. But if the immune system reacts to form the needed antibodies that's good.

    I'm not sure why you think we should try to do away with them. Should we do away with antibiotics, cancer surgery, knee reconstructions, burns treatment, insulin for diabetics?

    We have seen a massive increase in the % of heart disease and cancer... we know or think we know some of the causes of thes increases.
    The main reason for these increases is that they are mainly diseases of old age. More of us are living long enough to acquire these end of life conditions, rather than dying young from infected injuries or infectious diseases. We have to die from something. It's a much better option to say goodbye to your children and grandchildren when you die in your 70s or 80s from cancer or heart disease than to miss out on life entirely by dying blue in the face, gasping for breath, from pertussis when you're a few weeks old.

    TRIGGER WARNING: This article on pertussis and vaccination is very good .... but .... take Phil Plait's warning about the video seriously.

    If you're a parent or at all soft-hearted, Don't Watch It. It's awful. The Australian antivax movement takes its toll | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Is it too much to ask that you fellas stay on topic?
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    smallpox blankets= british general Amherst
    now there is a guy you could hate
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Is it too much to ask that you fellas stay on topic?
    Perhaps they are learning to hate each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1
    Hi Flick,I've just read some of your posts in the Moon Hoax thread, and would like to extend an invitation to you to express some of your feelings on the Hatred thread in the behaviour & psychology sub forum that I've created, if you are willing. It's basically an informal study thread I've created there to understand more about the subject of hatred, and how objects/subjects (such as annoyance & irritation) can evolve/turns into hatred. If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to hear some of your frustrations in that thread for the purpose of studying your annoyance from the Moon Hoax thread.HatredRegard,Scooby
    Okay, scoobs. (zoinks?)

    I don't know what exactly you want me to relate, but I can certainly add that I am in no small part frustrated by someone diminishing the accomplishments of their betters simply for attention. I certainly wouldn't apply the word 'hate' to my feelings, though. I get mad about those people, but I don't hate them. There are, in fact, very few things that a person can do to make me hate them.

    For the Moon Hoax Nonsense thread, I was frustrated from a long day and I let it get the better of me. I'm just glad Kalster didn't hit me with a ruler.
    I've done worse, both as a mod and not.

    Same with me when it comes to real hate, even when I sometimes use the word "hate" to describe how I feel about politicians. I do get exasperated a lot, especially on this forum.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
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    I suppose hatred, like fear, a natural posture we may as well exercise deliberately lest biological need tricks our minds into seizing unfortunately convenient objects to express hate at. See how Betsey Trotwood (of David Copperfield) channels her hatred:

    Janet had gone away to get the bath ready, when my aunt, to my great alarm, became in one moment rigid with indignation, and had hardly voice to cry out, 'Janet! Donkeys!'

    Upon which, Janet came running up the stairs as if the house were in flames, darted out on a little piece of green in front, and warned off two saddle-donkeys, lady-ridden, that had presumed to set hoof upon it; while my aunt, rushing out of the house, seized the bridle of a third animal laden with a bestriding child, turned him, led him forth from those sacred precincts, and boxed the ears of the unlucky urchin in attendance who had dared to profane that hallowed ground.

    To this hour I don't know whether my aunt had any lawful right of way over that patch of green; but she had settled it in her own mind that she had, and it was all the same to her. The one great outrage of her life, demanding to be constantly avenged, was the passage of a donkey over that immaculate spot. In whatever occupation she was engaged, however interesting to her the conversation in which she was taking part, a donkey turned the current of her ideas in a moment, and she was upon him straight. Jugs of water, and watering-pots, were kept in secret places ready to be discharged on the offending boys; sticks were laid in ambush behind the door; sallies were made at all hours; and incessant war prevailed. Perhaps this was an agreeable excitement to the donkey-boys; or perhaps the more sagacious of the donkeys, understanding how the case stood, delighted with constitutional obstinacy in coming that way. I only know that there were three alarms before the bath was ready; and that on the occasion of the last and most desperate of all, I saw my aunt engage, single-handed, with a sandy-headed lad of fifteen, and bump his sandy head against her own gate, before he seemed to comprehend what was the matter. These interruptions were of the more ridiculous to me, because she was giving me broth out of a table-spoon at the time (having firmly persuaded herself that I was actually starving, and must receive nourishment at first in very small quantities), and, while my mouth was yet open to receive the spoon, she would put it back into the basin, cry 'Janet! Donkeys!' and go out to the assault.
    For my own hatred I have chosen:

    1) The confounding of yams with sweet potatoes. Particularly the US law requiring all products bearing the name "sweet potato" to also say "yam", whose sole purpose is to sustain the ignorance & confusion. For three Thanksgiving dinners now nobody has brought sweet potatoes. I am unrepentant.

    2) Wasps. I don't swear hotly at anything else.

    3) Shortsighted building practices. My line of work often snarls on crappy work people did ten or fifty years ago, and I damn the spirits of such people to oblivion while destroying what they've done. I reckon those losers were just passing through this world on their way to annihilation. Conversely, I take a moment to honor and study good future-friendly work I find, just as I hope my own spirit will be sustained in the afterlife. The worst offender in my judgement is the forgotten poser who paid masons to re-carve the Great Sphinx with his ugly nob. I'd find out who he was just to damn him to oblivion again!

    4) Baboons. Besides a gut-level dislike (mingled with fear) I believe baboons a natural target and explanation for our capacity to hate: Our natural enemies have mostly been mammals, intelligent mammals that learn and teach their offspring. Persistent and apparently excessive displays of hatred teach these competitors, as a species, not to screw with humans, as a species. It would certainly be advantageous to us if the baboons, lions, etc. learned humans are more trouble than chimpanzees. Of course lately we have lost contact with competing animals and no longer teach them - through our hatred - that humans are a pain in the butt with flying rocks. Now they just see a weird unfamiliar creature and act accordingly. Anyway, I cultivate what hatred I can muster for baboons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Is it too much to ask that you fellas stay on topic?
    Perhaps they are learning to hate each other.
    Feels more like we are learning to love each other to me.

    I'm aware we have gone off topic... but our scenic route will soon lead us back onto the main path.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    If you're a parent or at all soft-hearted, Don't Watch It. It's awful. The Australian antivax movement takes its toll | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine
    I'm a little disapointed adelady... this isn't an impartial scientific website. I didn't watch the vid but grasped that it uses footage of a dying baby in order to provoke a reaction against the 'propergander' spread by some woman who is against compulsory vaccination. Not impressive. Wheres the stats? wheres the data? where the impartial non leading facts regarding vaccinations? Is there anybody out there who compiles information without an agenda?

    I did read the artical (which insights hatred)... I also read the entire list of posts following it up. After the reactionary nutters had thier say some of the posts started to get quite reasonable and I was able to find sources of information which I've been studying all day.

    It seems that a lot of the real proffessional data is hard to find and many said this is why the antivax agenda is winning the day, because the provax information and evidence is not being presented as effectively.

    So far, I havn't read enough to convince me one way or another but I hope to continue researching.

    " I realise you've been listening to a couple of addled conspiracy enthusiasts (Alex Jones being one of the worst) but there's nothing really mysterious or strange about vaccination."

    You wrong here, I haven't been listening to any conspiracy enthusiasts and Alex jones is a name I have never heard of. I hadn't done any research before this conversation... conspiracy conshmiracy. I'm quite capable of thinking that the road to hell is pathed with good intentions.

    "I'm not sure why you think we should try to do away with them. Should we do away with antibiotics, cancer surgery, knee reconstructions, burns treatment, insulin for diabetics?"

    With all due respect me Lady, this is utterly ridiculous! What did I say about wanting to do away with them? You have a habit or twisting things and presenting a warped version of the facts. I merely questioned the practices... not dismissed, non demanded to do away with, merely questioned, that's all. It should be ok to do this without being painted as a conspiracy theorist.

    I can see why you have such strong feelings for vaccinations (and anything else you might beleive in), when you pay attention to propergander sites like the one you presented. Journalists that insight hatred against individual campaigners and ridicule them without presenting any refference to sources that promote their own stance. That site wasn't science it was propergander... projecting it's own insecurities and weaknesses onto others before anybody points them out is not cool, it calls the mother of an autism child a properganderist and claims she is wrong because one unvaccinated baby died of whooping cough. It didn't mention 18,000 deaths and hospitalisations of near death reactions to vaccines from 1991 to 2001, or the other 110,000 adverse reactions during the same period... from a recorded 1.9 billion vaccinations of 27 reported vaccines.
    Check this artical which provides a balance against the propergander you linked:
    The Patriot Axe Message Blog Archive Childhood Vaccines and Propaganda

    From some of the more sensible posters following that artical of 'discover magazine' I was able to find quite a few sources that have informed my impartial research.
    I will continue looking into it before I make my informed decisions.

    If you're strong feelings are based on any real scientific evidence and statistics regarding vax vs antivax then please share them with me as it would inform my impartial research into the subject. I've come across the vaccination adverse event reporting system but even these stats don't seem to be explained very well. It states 14% of the reported adverse effects were extremely serious resulting in death or near death... but it doesn't say which specific vaccines had which adverse effects... which is a lack of transparency. given that VAERS seems to be the leading body collecting data on adverse effects of vaccination and that it seems to be a voluntary scheme which pediatricians don't even need to report to, it seems real data will be hard to find.
    VAERS Data

    I was just watching this vid of robert kenedy speaking about the use of some preservative found in vaccines from the 1930's which prompted a lot of cases of autism which he claims were never known before... but then suddenly the screen went blank and a message said this video is currently unavailable!!!
    Robert Kennedy on the Vaccine Autism Coverup - YouTube

    here's a paper he had on his website: http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs...andalFINAL.PDF
    personaly I know nothing about bobby kenedy jr, but beleive he is JFK's son, nephew or relative... is he a conspiracy theorist too?

    Who is the head of medicines? where is there account of evidence for the use of vaccines?


    Here's some more info regard the potential dangers of some vaccinations:
    Acellular Pertussis Vaccine | Miracle Mineral Supplement - MMS
    Chicken Vaccines Combine to Create Deadly Virus | Alternative
    Whooping Cough Epidemic Caused by Virulent New Pertussis Strain—And It's the Result of Vaccine
    Vaccines for Deadly Malaria Create Even More Virulent Malaria - PLoS Study
    Ethical Concerns Over Whooping Cough Vaccine | KPBS.org
    Vaccines Are Causing Mutations That May Jeopardize The Health of Future Generations -- Health & Wellness -- Sott.net
    Delayed Role of Tumor Necrosis Factor
    Pro-Vaccine Arguments
    Comments on: - CBS News Video
    Adverse Effects of Pertussis and Rubella Vaccines
    Whooping Cough Outbreaks & Vaccine Failures - AGE OF AUTISM

    Also lets not forget phalidamide... we all know what happened there.

    So far adelady... I have found far more evidence far more easily towards corruptions and use of unsafe compounds in vaccines... and it's all been a lot more convincing than the artical you presented. Also, evidence that in spite of possibly noble and admirable aims to do away with pathogens, we usually end up making the pathogens stronger and more dangerous.

    Wheres the evidence and stats for each individual vaccine?

    Please don't be offended... i've made it clear i'm still impartial and don't want to influence anybody eitherway... but I do want to learn for my own benefit and am seriously interested in seeing some real evidence for vaccinations as well as against. the fact remains, vaccinations are widely practised by our governments... so where is the evidence for the use of them from our governments? i'm sure it's out there... but where? you have a strong opinion, so you must know where it is?

    Getting back onto the topic of the thread...

    One thing I mildly hate... is people who rant about how right they are, and project their own failings onto people who disagree with them (like phil plait seems to do). He might be right about the need to vaccinate, why can't he goes about it by sharing his knowledge and letting others judge for themselve rather than expecting us all to follow him purely becuase he condemns those who disagree with him.
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  97. #96  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
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    Please, the word is "propaganda".



    Edit: Also, on vaccines and autism:

    Vaccines and Autism: A Tale of Shifting Hypotheses

    A Broken Trust: Lessons from the Vaccine

    MMS: Error
    Last edited by KALSTER; September 18th, 2012 at 06:33 PM.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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  98. #97  
    Moderator Moderator
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    Oh, my giddy aunt.

    Miracle Mineral Supplement. It's bleach! Any parent who makes their child bathe in bleach, drink bleach or gives their child bleach enemas several times a week/day should be reported to welfare authorities.
    The lowest of the low: Trying to bleach autism away – Respectful Insolence
    MMS (a.k.a., bleach) for autism: Just when I thought I was out… – Respectful Insolence

    The Vaccine Awareness Network, Age of Autism, The Patriot Axe, Robert F Kennedy are all purveyors of dangerous misinformation accompanied by a nasty side serving of dis information and you can also get a generous dessert of pure wing-nuttery if you choose to.

    There is nothing new or interesting or scientific in promoting anti-vaccine themes. It's been happening right from the start ..... centuries ago. See Kalster's last link.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  99. #98  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    [Here's some more info regard the potential dangers of some vaccinations:
    If you want to do "impartial" research then you first need to learn to discriminate between idiotic scaremongering pseudoscience and real data. You have, in other threads, shown a worrying tendency to accept almost any source of information as being equally valid. This list of links is typical of your approach.
    John Galt likes this.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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  100. #99  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Seconded, in spades, with cascades of flowers thrown in.
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