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Thread: Emergence.???

  1. #1 Emergence.??? 
    Forum Sophomore cluelusshusbund's Avatar
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    Emergence---"The whole is greater than the sum of its parts."

    People often use the term "emergence"... what does it mean to you.???


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    Moderator Moderator Markus Hanke's Avatar
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    Emergence is well defined in this Wikipedia article :

    Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    For me it means that complex patterns arise out of the interactions of simpler systems; I picture it as the emergence of well ordered sand dunes from the otherwise completely chaotic interaction between wind and sand grains in the desert.


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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Emergence is the elephant in the universe. Why does emergence occur at all? Why, given a set of simple laws, constants, particles and forces, do highly complex structures emerge, including ones capable of investigating those same laws, etc? If there is a teleogical twist to the universe it is present in emergence.
    Last edited by John Galt; December 15th, 2011 at 05:15 AM. Reason: correct typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Emergence is the elephant in the universe. Why does emergence occur at all? Why, given a set of simple laws, constants, particles and forces, do highly complex structures emerge, including ones capable of investigating those same laws, etc? If there is a teleogical twist to the universe it is present in emergence.
    A well posed and very valid question
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    Forum Sophomore cluelusshusbund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    Emergence---"The whole is greater than the sum of its parts."

    People often use the term "emergence"... what does it mean to you.???
    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    For me it means that complex patterns arise out of the interactions of simpler systems; I picture it as the emergence of well ordered sand dunes from the otherwise completely chaotic interaction between wind and sand grains in the desert.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Emergence is the elephant in the universe. Why does emergence occur at all? Why, given a set of simple laws, constants, particles and forces, do highly complex structures emerge, including ones capable of investigating those same laws, etc?
    (From the Wikipedia article)
    "Although strong emergence is logically possible, it is uncomfortably like magic"

    Givin the "Laws"... ect... you spoke of... how coud said highly complex structures not occur... ie... no magic necessary.???

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    If there is a teleogical twist to the universe it is present in emergence.
    If the universe has a twist of magic thers no evidence of it... so that type "emergence" is jus a beleif.!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Emergence is the elephant in the universe. Why does emergence occur at all? Why, given a set of simple laws, constants, particles and forces, do highly complex structures emerge, including ones capable of investigating those same laws, etc?
    (From the Wikipedia article)
    "Although strong emergence is logically possible, it is uncomfortably like magic"

    Givin the "Laws"... ect... you spoke of... how coud said highly complex structures not occur... ie... no magic necessary.???
    Specific emergence only occur under specific condition. eg: A termite mound wouldn't happen if we replace termite with ants, a typhoon/tropical-storm wouldn't happen in the vacuum of space. There always a condition that made unexpected things to happen... eg: animals migration pattern, human intelligence, which is not obvious at first (if only cells, atoms and neurons are considered)...
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    Indeed it's so common in natural sciences we all most take it for granted--but than again that's what makes it's study so fun, satisfying and at times awe inspiring even when it's understood.

    In some sense "emergence" is a fundamental property of nature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Indeed it's so common in natural sciences we all most take it for granted--but than again that's what makes it's study so fun, satisfying and at times awe inspiring even when it's understood.

    In some sense "emergence" is a fundamental property of nature.
    In what sense is "emergence" not a fundamental property of nature.???
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    Quote Originally Posted by msafwan View Post
    Specific emergence only occur under specific condition.
    Specific "anythang" only occur under specific conditions... so what.???
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Emergence is well defined in this Wikipedia article :

    Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    For me it means that complex patterns arise out of the interactions of simpler systems; I picture it as the emergence of well ordered sand dunes from the otherwise completely chaotic interaction between wind and sand grains in the desert.
    Are you suggestin that the "interaction between wind and sand grains in the deseert" is not well ordered.???
    Go here an play the "Guess Game".!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    Are you suggestin that the "interaction between wind and sand grains in the deseert" is not well ordered.???
    Isn't it stochastic and chaotic and sometimes catastrophic?
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    Our thoughts would be an emergent property with the evolution of speech and language.
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    Thoughts were an emergent property before speech and language. With speech and language they emerge further. And teleology runs rampant through the night towards the glimmering dawn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Thoughts were an emergent property before speech and language. With speech and language they emerge further. And teleology runs rampant through the night towards the glimmering dawn.

    The thoughts we had prior to speech and language were nothing like our thoughts today. In our minds, today, our thoughts are in word usage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbi View Post
    The thoughts we had prior to speech and language were nothing like our thoughts today. In our minds, today, our thoughts are in word usage.
    That does not alter the fact that we had thougths before speech and language, which is what you implied.

    Moreover, many of our thoughts are accomplished without language. This is certainly true for me and as far as I am aware for others. I often think visually, in three dimensions with full animation. Sometimes I think in a manner I can only describe as conceptual. It is difficult to explain it in words since it's primary feature is the complete absence of words, but more a 'sense of things'. So, your statement is simply wrong.
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    I often think visually, in three dimensions with full animation. Sometimes I think in a manner I can only describe as conceptual. It is difficult to explain it in words since it's primary feature is the complete absence of words, but more a 'sense of things'. So, your statement is simply wrong
    Same here. I'd say I think less in words than anything else in fact. I have even had dreams that were purely conceptual, with no words, sounds or even visuals.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Wow, not me, my thoughts are largely composed of everyday word usage.
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  19. #18  
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    Interesting. I have no idea what proportion of my thinking is of each type. It's not something I've analysed. I do know when I am constructing, for example, a report, I picture the structure of the report as blocks. I have a sense of what is in each block, but it is not expressed in words. In a section dealing with a complex failure I might imagine five rounded cubes of various shades of red, orange and yellow that I 'know' represent different stages of the failure. One tends to think everyone must be thinking the same way, but of course this is simply not so.
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    I guess thinking is a product of your environment especially in the line of work that you do or your particular interests.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    Are you suggestin that the "interaction between wind and sand grains in the deseert" is not well ordered.???
    Isn't it stochastic and chaotic and sometimes catastrophic?
    Are you suggestin that movements of sand can be un-caused.???
    Go here an play the "Guess Game".!!!

    http://www.thescienceforum.com/gener...uess-what.html

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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    Are you suggestin that the "interaction between wind and sand grains in the deseert" is not well ordered.???
    Isn't it stochastic and chaotic and sometimes catastrophic?
    Are you suggestin that movements of sand can be un-caused.???
    What does un-caused mean? Do you mean "be reversed"? If so there is nothing in my statement that requires reversibility.
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    Are you suggestin that the "interaction between wind and sand grains in the deseert" is not well ordered.???

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    sn't it stochastic and chaotic and sometimes catastrophic?
    Are you suggestin that movements of sand can be un-caused.???

    What does un-caused mean?
    That "causality" does not apply.!!!

    A meanin for the word you used... "stochastic"... is causeless... so... are you suggestin that grains of sand in a wind storm can wind up whare they do wit-out a cause.???
    Go here an play the "Guess Game".!!!

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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbi View Post
    Our thoughts would be an emergent property with the evolution of speech and language.
    More likely the other way round. Some people think that the mind's underlying mechanisms for logical thought is what gave us the ability to develop language: Do thoughts have a language of their own? - opinion - 08 December 2011 - New Scientist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbi View Post
    The thoughts we had prior to speech and language were nothing like our thoughts today. In our minds, today, our thoughts are in word usage.
    But not directly because of language. You may be thinking of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis; but this has been largely discredited apart from very subtle influences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    I often think visually, in three dimensions with full animation. Sometimes I think in a manner I can only describe as conceptual. It is difficult to explain it in words since it's primary feature is the complete absence of words, but more a 'sense of things'. So, your statement is simply wrong
    Same here. I'd say I think less in words than anything else in fact. I have even had dreams that were purely conceptual, with no words, sounds or even visuals.
    Same here. Even when reading I don't usually hear words.

    There was a radio programme a while ago about a guy who wanted to get away from "noise". One of his problems that there are always "voices in our heads" (not schizophrenia ). To support his he interviewed various people on the high street; they all said that as they walked down the road they heard their thoughts saying, "look at those shoes", etc. Obviously he only chose to use people who agreed with his thesis, but I found myself thinking, "no..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    That "causality" does not apply.!!!

    A meanin for the word you used... "stochastic"... is causeless... so... are you suggestin that grains of sand in a wind storm can wind up whare they do wit-out a cause.???
    Stochastic is more generally taken to mean that there is a random element involved in the process such that it can best be analysed in terms of probability. That is how I was using the term.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbi View Post
    Wow, not me, my thoughts are largely composed of everyday word usage.
    I was thinking about this comment as I drove to work today. I pictured you thinking about going shopping for shoes. I cannot believe - but set me straight if necessary - that if you do ever think about buying shoe you do not picture a shoe shop and picture particualr style and colour of shoes and picture those shoes on your feet. There mighty be words accompanying these pictures, but much of the thinking is visual. Am I right, or am I merely correct?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Barbi View Post
    Wow, not me, my thoughts are largely composed of everyday word usage.
    I was thinking about this comment as I drove to work today. I pictured you thinking about going shopping for shoes. I cannot believe - but set me straight if necessary - that if you do ever think about buying shoe you do not picture a shoe shop and picture particualr style and colour of shoes and picture those shoes on your feet. There mighty be words accompanying these pictures, but much of the thinking is visual. Am I right, or am I merely correct?
    Okay, you got me there so I guess I do visualize some of the time. However, I spend a great deal of time researching science and every other subject that interest me so I am preoccupied with word usage.
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    Another definition of emergence is the following. An emergent property of a substance can be seen as property which cannot be found by an examination of the molecules themselves. An example is the experience of the wetness of water. There is nothing in the molucules of water which give an indication it is going to be wet. This emergence of properties is often used as an argument in some forms of dualism and is seen as nonphysical.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HTW View Post
    This emergence of properties is often used as an argument in some forms of dualism and is seen as nonphysical.
    Presumably it can also be used as an argument against dualism!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HTW View Post
    This emergence of properties is often used as an argument in some forms of dualism and is seen as nonphysical.
    Presumably it can also be used as an argument against dualism!
    I never said it could not be used against some forms of dualism. I am just explaining the term from the point of view of the definer.
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    When emergence occurs in animal behaviour (like groundhogs collectively teasing a coyote to exhaustion) I think of it as metagaming. I wouldn't rate it emergent from sentients if one individual could understand how it works.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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