Thread: Lying and manipulation, hypocrisy is bad things... why?

Today I've been thinking... What is a bad behavior? Lying is. Hypocrisy isn't a good thing either... Manipulation isn't too. In some way, manipulation is lying and hypocrisy, and of course some other things, don't you think? It's just combined and used in a more sophisticated manner. So let's make the list shorter: manipulation isn't a good thing. Why?
People manipulates people to get ahead, or to achieve something, to get something or to make something done. Why is getting something bad? Sure, it's not good for the other person, but it is good for you. In fact, it is very good for you in most cases.
Some people likes to give something, anything. They buy a pack of cookies, they go and find their friends at school just to say hi and give a cookie. You just have to take these things from these people. And if they like giving, why not take more? You just have to know how to do that. As for other people - if they give in for the manipulation, it is their fault anyway, they didn't think what might come out from the situation. You shouldn't be responsible because somebody was unable to determine the ending of the situation, should you?
So why is it a bad thing, if somebody tries to get information from somebody while manipulating? For example - lying to a girl that he feels something for her, but he doesn't just to get to see how she will react after he says that he does love her too. That's what my friend did yesterday. Today he came and asked me if he did a bad thing. I said that it depends on the situation and a discussion began. It is a bad thing for the girl, but the guy gets an answer, he feels good about getting the answer, he is satisfied. Sure, girl will be down after he tells her the truth, but he won't lose anything, will he? So if he loses nothing, just gets satisfaction in a form of an answer, it is a good thing.

What do you think? Why is it a good thing or a bad thing?

P.S. It would be great if a nice discussion would come up here, so don't hesitate to oppose me heavily, unless you hate discussions...

You are trying to justify and rationalize that its 'good' to lie and manipulate people's feeling to get whatever you want. Part of being human is the abiltity to feel empathy for the other person: when some one gets hurt, we understand and try to comfort them.

What you are discribing is immature bahavior by someone who hasn't yet developed a connection with other's as equal human beings.

You describe manipulation as 'getting something, getting ahead' etc. You fail to mention that it is taking from someone , disrepecting someone. Sure we all do it at times, but its nothing to be proud of.

Originally Posted by stlekee

You are trying to justify and rationalize that its 'good' to lie and manipulate people's feeling to get whatever you want. Part of being human is the abiltity to feel empathy for the other person: when some one gets hurt, we understand and try to comfort them.

What you are discribing is immature bahavior by someone who hasn't yet developed a connection with other's as equal human beings.

You describe manipulation as 'getting something, getting ahead' etc. You fail to mention that it is taking from someone , disrepecting someone. Sure we all do it at times, but its nothing to be proud of.

I am trying to rationalize that it isn't a 'bad' thing to do. I am not saying that it is a good thing to do.
Having an ability to do something doesn't mean that you have to do it, does it?
Also I am not saying that I am proud of it, or somebody else should be, but that doesn't mean that this should be something that people should be afraid to talk about, or don't want to talk about. You don't need to be proud to talk about something...
Also... What is mature? How it is defined when you 'are' mature and when you are 'immature'? Who defines this?

Two possible ways of interpreting this.

Biological: kin selection. Manipulation is considered bad because we have evolved to view it so. An individual might benefit from manipulation, but does the group? If the group does not benefit then the aggregate of their genes have less chance of being propagated. Therefore, it is in the best interests of the group, and the genes contained within that group, to identify and expel that threat. Mirror neurons and empathy are key requisites for this sort of behaviour.

Moral. Personally i don't believe in good or bad as absolutes. I would, however, deem such behaviour as 'bad', and indeed 'immature'. Even though an initial propensity towards dislike for such behaviour may have biological roots, it could be argued that with the advent of human culture it has become something else. Whether the medium is the putative meme or something else, we have the ability to consider the problem via abstract reasoning. I am no ethicist but i am sure one would be able to come up with many reasons why such behaviour is bad (utilitarianism, 'golden rule' ethics, etc...).


In fact, immature could be exactly the right word to describe this behaviour. It demonstrates a lack of empathy which in turn could be associated with underdeveloped (i.e. immature) mirror neurons.

Geekish,
I agree we should talk about issues such as these. I think any behavior that intentionally hurts another is not the best way to achieve an end, and manipulation is intentional.

Describing 'immature' is difficult. I think people learn appropriate social behavior thru the accumulation of experiences and the evaluation of our behavior in these experiences. If our behavior hurts people repeatedly, the consequence is people don't trust us or wish to have relationships with us. So in the end manipulation drives people away from us, and the manipulation not only hurts the manipulated, but ultimately the manipulator. So it is in our own best interest to treat people with respect and dignity.

These types of life lessons are what make a person mature. Maturity comes thru experience.

Geekish: in your example of your friend's manipulation, you were convicted in saying that it is a good thing just cos it was to your friend's benefit. I think conscience and morals come into play here because it doesn't mean that something is good even though a good outcome for your friend resulted.
The Dalai Lama says that it is a basic human nature to be compassionate and gentle. That means to have the ability to be considerate toward the other party. So how did you come to the conclusion that manipulation is good just cos it benefitted ONE party?
Are you also implying that any form of 'evil-ness' (for lack of better words) is good just as long as somebody benefits from it?
If so... then i think you need to re-evaluate your moral ground...
The first law of Ethics for healthcare professionals is 'Do NO harm..'
Please also do not come back with the argument that it is human nature to be aggressive or selfish or bad... Just cos we're the only species to kill one another just cos of anger etc... because recent studies have shown that it is more and more not the case... and are leaning towards the Dalai Lama's conviction that the basic human nature is compassion and gentleness.

Immaturity could be one of the reasons why a person behaves this way... but i also think about psychopaths or narcissists... who lack the ability to be considerate to the other party...

A criminal activity is a simple thing so as a intruder behave,
a manipulated individual by an intruder and all its business involved.

By other ways theres only war.

Then at society a business activity,
to enslave all on behalf of money and products,
acceptation of individuals and its activity.

The privatization of public space just get worse when
business raise puppets for its products at streets,
and the automobile prevents all residents and to betray
everyone on behalf of propaganda and some advantage.

Basically individuals are weak by then selves and
a product is a scape through a business activity.
A war is what prevents it ugly when for already theres no space
for what it counts, and everything back to zero.

Business are build over,the drug at society,
Lies and manipulation also claims hypocrisy on blame
where pollution corrupts dirt its steps at society,,,,,
then the cycle for buy the automobile so as drug addict.

Yes my fuhrer, to all the products and its business behave.

Wait a minute don't blame the others its a Batdance !!!! Where's Batman????
Do it,Do it,.....