Thread: We are all victims of circumstance.!!!

Well my subject line makes my pont... that no one deserves punishment because we are all victims of circumstance... so i voated "No".!!!

"deserve" is the key concept IMO. What would be the point of punishment if it couldn't produce a positive outcome in terms of behaviour modification that benefits the individual in question and/or the group? I voted "yes".

Originally Posted by KALSTER

"deserve" is the key concept IMO.

What would be the point of punishment if it couldn't produce a positive outcome in terms of behaviour modification that benefits the individual in question and/or the group? I voted "yes".

Yes i agree that "deserve" is the issue... but for an esample... i dont thank an insane person deserves punishment for bad behavior caused by ther insanity.!!!

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund

Originally Posted by KALSTER

"deserve" is the key concept IMO.

What would be the point of punishment if it couldn't produce a positive outcome in terms of behaviour modification that benefits the individual in question and/or the group? I voted "yes".

Yes i agree that "deserve" is the issue... but for an esample... i dont thank an insane person deserves punishment for bad behavior caused by ther insanity.!!!

I agree, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that a sane person might deserve punishment for something at some point.

Cause and effect.

I'll use crime in my examples, although the question is open to all sorts of misbehavior.

Does the statement that everyone are victims of circumstances mean that no man is responsible for his actions? Some sort of pre-determination of every action? This would of course not only apply to criminals, but also to those making policies and punishing said criminals. Making both crime and punishment inevitable.

Even if we are less strict on the deterministic parts we must take into account that the knowledge of crimes being punished is a part of the circumstances and as such could be argued reduces the incentives for commiting a crime.

For the record I voted "Yes.!!!"

Originally Posted by jakotaco

I'll use crime in my examples, although the question is open to all sorts of misbehavior.

Does the statement that everyone are victims of circumstances mean that no man is responsible for his actions?

In the respect that they dont deserve punishment... then yes... no one is responsible for ther actions... but as a society an individualy... we generaly demand that people are held responsible for ther actions... som exceptions bein... when its obvous that a persons bad behavior was beyond ther control.!!!

Originally Posted by KALSTER

"a sane person might deserve punishment for something at some point."

I thank the diference between sane an insane (as far as jugin who is responsible)... is that the reasons the insane person ant in control of ther actions is mor obvous than with the "sane" person.!!!

Originally Posted by jakotaco

Some sort of pre-determination of every action? This would of course not only apply to criminals, but also to those making policies and punishing said criminals. Making both crime and punishment inevitable.

Even if we are less strict on the deterministic parts we must take into account that the knowledge of crimes being punished is a part of the circumstances and as such could be argued reduces the incentives for commiting a crime.

I dont see "any parts" as not bein deterministic... an jus because we realize that no one deserves punishment... that wont keep people from bein held responsible for ther actions... but it will lessin hate an increase compassion we have for our fellow man.!!!

So basicly this is not about whether we should or shouldn't punish. But rather about what attitude we should have to those being punished?

Originally Posted by jakotaco

So basicly this is not about whether we should or shouldn't punish. But rather about what attitude we should have to those being punished?

Its about whether punishment is deserved or not... an any discusson which follows from that is irrelevent to whether punishment is deserved or not.!!!

Instead of asking whether punishment is "deserved" (a fuzzy notion), why not ask whether inflicting punishment is efficient in accomplishing some socially-accepted goal - such as reducing crime, making people respect contracts, etc.

Originally Posted by DrNesbit

Instead of asking whether punishment is "deserved" (a fuzzy notion),

I supose if it wasnt somwhat of a "fuzzy notion" ther woudnt be much to discuss... so did you voat.???

why not ask whether inflicting punishment is efficient in accomplishing some socially-accepted goal - such as reducing crime, making people respect contracts, etc.

Thats also a good topic... its jus not the topic i chose to be the focus of this thred.!!!

I have known insane people (e.g. schizophrenic), and come to the position that insanity does not excuse an asshole. Insanity pleas essentially attribute asshole behaviour (crimes i.e. seriously antisocial behaviour) to mental illness, like insanity is an external aggravation and not part of the "real" core person. IMO people do not have "real" spirits aloof from chemical imbalances or whatever. We are just the meat and nothing more, and may be held accountable for our meat selves even if we're sick meat.

I guess if one believes the "real" person exists as a kinda immortal soul apart from worldly circumstance, Earthly justice must be paradoxical. Are we emerging from that now?

Pong: Insanity excuses someone for example if it made them think they act in self defense.

I think behind most of those actions you would find valuing/respecting the self far more than others. Essentially the asshole attitude.

The mentally ill should be the first people to distrust their own judgments, and value others'. Many do. It hinges on whether they are also assholes or not. For example look at seniors with dementia. If basically friendly, they'll greet the stranger (sibling) and perhaps tell jokes, offer candy, la la la. If they are assholes with dementia though, they'll insult and accuse and feel terrorized.

Originally Posted by Pong

"insanity does not excuse an asshole."
Insanity pleas essentially attribute asshole behaviour (crimes i.e. seriously antisocial behaviour) to mental illness, like insanity is an external aggravation and not part of the "real" core person.
IMO people do not have "real" spirits aloof from chemical imbalances or whatever. We are just the meat and nothing more, and may be held accountable for our meat selves even if we're sick meat.

I agree that people shoud be held "accountable"... but my issue is... i dont thank pepole deserve punishment.!!!

I guess if one believes the "real" person exists as a kinda immortal soul apart from worldly circumstance, Earthly justice must be paradoxical. Are we emerging from that now?

Whether Earthly OR heavenly justice... punishin people for doin thangs beyond ther control makes no sinse to me... jus like a puppy dont deserve punishment if it poops on the floor.!!!

Are you pretending to be an idiot on purpose OP?...if so, I believe you should be punished.

But does he DESERVE punishment, or has he merely EARNED it?

Originally Posted by inow

But does he DESERVE punishment, or has he merely EARNED it?

The puppy for instence... did it earn punishment by poopin on the floor.???

Originally Posted by Pong

The mentally ill should be the first people to distrust their own judgments, and value others'. Many do. It hinges on whether they are also assholes or not. For example look at seniors with dementia. If basically friendly, they'll greet the stranger (sibling) and perhaps tell jokes, offer candy, la la la. If they are assholes with dementia though, they'll insult and accuse and feel terrorized.

Not all mentally ill are like that. Many of them do not realize there is something wrong with them. And some ilnesses can indeed cause them to act like assholes.

Originally Posted by Twit of wit

Not all mentally ill are like that. Many of them do not realize there is something wrong with them.

Why I used the example of Alzheimer's. Mostly they're caught up in their moments.

Originally Posted by Bill Cosby

I said to a guy, "Tell me, what is it about cocaine that makes it so wonderful," and he said, "Because it intensifies your personality." I said, "Yes, but what if you're an asshole?"

Because I don't judge people having spirits aloof from the meat and chemicals of themselves, I have to say that when a guy is giddy with cocaine that drug is an essential part of who he is. It's just as much "him" then as the calcium in his bones. So, cluelusshusbund, the person we must judge is just the puppet and all its strings included. Not any spirit we imagine trapped inside the puppet.

Originally Posted by Bill Cosby

I said to a guy, "Tell me, what is it about cocaine that makes it so wonderful," and he said, "Because it intensifies your personality." I said, "Yes, but what if you're an asshole?"

Originally Posted by Pong

Because I don't judge people having spirits aloof from the meat and chemicals of themselves, I have to say that when a guy is giddy with cocaine that drug is an essential part of who he is. It's just as much "him" then as the calcium in his bones. So, cluelusshusbund, the person we must judge is just the puppet and all its strings included. Not any spirit we imagine trapped inside the puppet.

Thers no such thang as spirits (aloof or otherwize) that i know of.!!!

How bout this hypothetical situation:::

Over a period of a few mounthes a nice 50 year old person becoms meaner an meaner an winds up killin a child for takin a short cut thru ther yard... ther sentenced to life in prison... but a few mounthes later its discovered they have a brane tumer... an when the tumer is removed the person is bak to bein the nice person they had always been befor... shoud they still serve a life sentence... or be released from prison.???

Originally Posted by inow

But does he DESERVE punishment, or has he merely EARNED it?

Both.

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund

How bout this hypothetical situation:::

Over a period of a few mounthes a nice 50 year old person becoms meaner an meaner an winds up killin a child for takin a short cut thru ther yard... ther sentenced to life in prison... but a few mounthes later its discovered they have a brane tumer... an when the tumer is removed the person is bak to bein the nice person they had always been befor... shoud they still serve a life sentence... or be released from prison.???

Good. I've already tried this one.

The person may be judged as a complete package. He is an asshole so long as he has this tumour. However we discover perfect rehabilitation surprisingly easy (by removing the tumour). So what should we do with former assholes who are perfectly rehabilitated?

Does society have a right to fix individuals? I think so. Even against their wishes.

Does society have an obligation to fix everybody? Are we capable of fixing everybody? No and no. Therefore we will keep some individuals in prison or looney bin.

Originally Posted by Pong

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund

How bout this hypothetical situation:::

Over a period of a few mounthes a nice 50 year old person becoms meaner an meaner an winds up killin a child for takin a short cut thru ther yard... ther sentenced to life in prison... but a few mounthes later its discovered they have a brane tumer... an when the tumer is removed the person is bak to bein the nice person they had always been befor... shoud they still serve a life sentence... or be released from prison.???

Good. I've already tried this one.

The person may be judged as a complete package.

He is an asshole so long as he has this tumour. However we discover perfect rehabilitation surprisingly easy (by removing the tumour). So what should we do with former assholes who are perfectly rehabilitated?

Does society have a right to fix individuals? I think so. Even against their wishes.

Does society have an obligation to fix everybody? Are we capable of fixing everybody? No and no. Therefore we will keep some individuals in prison or looney bin.

Then you agree wit me... that a perfectly rehabilitated person does not deserve punishment no mater what ther "crime" was.!!!

Do you thank punishment such as prison/prison life... is severe enuff for the people incarsarated thar.???

I don't think severity of punishment, in itself, matters. Retribution doesn't pay back society in any way. And the deterrence effect of stiffer sentences has been shown negligable. If crooks believed they'd get caught eventually, they wouldn't smoke cigarettes would they? But I value institutionalization for removing dangers from society, and also protecting the insane from harming themselves.

Originally Posted by Pong

I don't think severity of punishment, in itself, matters. Retribution doesn't pay back society in any way.

...I value institutionalization for removing dangers from society, and also protecting the insane from harming themselves.

Mor we agree on... an the only reason im for instiutionalization is a las resort for removin criminal dangers from society... an to protect the insane from harmin themselves or the rest of society... an idealy... id like for incarsiration to be mor about rehabilitation than punishment... do you agree.???

I agree.

But two disagreements with this:

no one deserves punishment because we are all victims of circumstance

1) "Deserves" is a can 'o worms and maybe not relevent after all. I think you see society must squash some individuals for the sake of the many. This is not really about the private challenges of those few and whether they're good or bad people; it's about the needs of the majority.

2) "Victims of circumstance" says we aren't simply the sum of our circumstances. We could go on forever chasing spirits who exist apart from their personal circumstances. Like the God of the Gaps, these elusive personhoods whittle away as circumstances (facts) dictating their lives become known.

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund

Originally Posted by inow

But does he DESERVE punishment, or has he merely EARNED it?

The puppy for instence... did it earn punishment by poopin on the floor.???

Depends of your definition of earn, but whatever it's "earned" or not, it might be a good idea to punish the puppy anyway, both to discourage it from pooping on the floor again and as an example to other puppies who might be looking.

Originally Posted by Pong

...two disagreements with this:

"no one deserves punishment because we are all victims of circumstance"

1) "Deserves" is a can 'o worms and maybe not relevent after all. I think you see society must squash some individuals for the sake of the many.
This is not really about the private challenges of those few and whether they're good or bad people; it's about the needs of the majority.

What society chooses to do is irrelevent to my argument of whether people deserve punishment or not.!!!

I thank the mor "civilized" societies put mor effort into rehibilation than punishment... ie... less torture of criminals... mor humane treetment of the insane.!!!

2) "Victims of circumstance" says we aren't simply the sum of our circumstances. We could go on forever chasing spirits who exist apart from their personal circumstances. Like the God of the Gaps, these elusive personhoods whittle away as circumstances (facts) dictating their lives become known.

The origins of the circumstance is irrelevent to my argument that we are victims of circumstance... jus like... the origion of the universe is irrelevent to the fact of evolution... ie... our circumstances are what they are no mater what the causes that led up to 'em.!!!

No mater if we know what caused a person to preform an horrific act or not... ther are causes... an the person is a victim of those circumstances... ie... i see no evidence of free will (un-influenced choises) an no one deserves punishment for acts beyond ther control.!!!

The mor people understan the causes of "bad" behavior... the mor compassionate society becoms.!!!

Originally Posted by DrNesbit

...it might be a good idea to punish the puppy anyway, both to discourage it from pooping on the floor again and as an example to other puppies who might be looking.

An to the issue of whether the puppy deserves punishment... i say no... jus like a human "bedwetter" dont deserve punishment.!!!

The las puppy i had an house trained was about 8 years ago... durin her "trainin" she pooped on the floor twice... an both times was dew to my inattention... in that... i was destracted an didnt take her outside soom after she had eatin... the firs time i didnt see her poop... i jus noticed the pile on the floor... i said nuthin but picked the puppy up an took her to the usual place she did her bidness an incouraged her to releive herself by sayin "hurry-up"... "hurry-up"... of course ther was no bidness left to do... lol... so she jus sniffed aroun for a couple of minutes... i left her outside to play an i went inside an cleaned up the mess wit a enzime-cleaner to insure that she coudnt smell what she had prevously deposited an posibly conect the smell to bein the place to poop... the second time i saw her poopin an i said "NO"... picked her up an took her outside... but even the stern "NO" was undeserved punishment cause she wasnt doin anythang rong... she was jus bein the puppy she was... yep... it was "Me" (society) who had punished her because of my own wants an needs... which is anuther issue... is it ethical to "own pets"... but thats anuther thred... eh