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Thread: Gays

  1. #1 Gays 
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    I think being gay is a choice.


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    How do you define being gay? Is it by who you are attracted to, or who you have sex with?


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  4. #3  
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    I don't think anything is really a choice, it is just determined by our genes, environment and the laws of nature. I believe it is completely deterministic.
    Is the whole world crazy, or is it just me?
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    Something can be completely deterministic and still be a choice - the opposite of deterministic is random.

    Richard: a choice for who? Everyone that's gay? Some? Are there any predispositions? What consequences does your belief have on moral judgments, or on actions?
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNesbit
    Something can be completely deterministic and still be a choice -
    How so?
    Is the whole world crazy, or is it just me?
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    A computer program that chooses which path a car should follow to cross a city in a simulation.
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    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    As someone who happens to be gay, I can say I never at any point decided to be attracted to men, and I have yet to find someone who is straight that has made a choice to be straight.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum
    As someone who happens to be gay, I can say I never at any point decided to be attracted to men, and I have yet to find someone who is straight that has made a choice to be straight.
    I agree. As someone who is straight I have been attracted to women for as long as I can remember, and even before I knew what "gay" or "straight" meant.
    Is the whole world crazy, or is it just me?
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    Richard, are you planning on actually taking part in this thread other than posting and running? It is pretty obvious that most gay people no more choose to be gay than straight people do other than disregarding cultural taboos that might be present, though that doesn't change the fact of the matter. What are your thoughts?

    The "most" qualifier I put in there is to take into account people that are attracted to both men and woman, but decide to focus on one or the other.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Being gay is not a choice, though acting gay could be.
    Being Richard Bacat is a choice, though not necessarily, initially of that individual.
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    Looks like it was a hit and run trolling post at this point
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    How do you define being gay? Is it by who you are attracted to, or who you have sex with?
    Could I get some clarification on this? Don't adults who, we'll assume, can control their behavior, end up having sex only with who they're attracted to? I mean, look at other behaviors...

    Would someone say, "Hey, I never wanted to drive my new car into the bridge abutment, but despite the fact, I aimed for and plowed right into it." ?

    Or would someone say, "I can't stand chili, but despite the fact, I tied a bib around my neck and poured a whole kettle of 5-alarm chili down my throat." ?

    Does the logic for sane, adult behavior not apply to sexual behavior? What's the rationale? It was an "accident"? Ya have multiple personalities? Ya booted up in the default mode? How do ya rationalize it in the morning?
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    Could I get some clarification on this? Don't adults who, we'll assume, can control their behavior, end up having sex only with who they're attracted to? I mean, look at other behaviors...

    Would someone say, "Hey, I never wanted to drive my new car into the bridge abutment, but despite the fact, I aimed for and plowed right into it." ?

    Or would someone say, "I can't stand chili, but despite the fact, I tied a bib around my neck and poured a whole kettle of 5-alarm chili down my throat." ?

    Does the logic for sane, adult behavior not apply to sexual behavior? What's the rationale? It was an "accident"? Ya have multiple personalities? Ya booted up in the default mode? How do ya rationalize it in the morning?
    I would imagine that there are plenty of people out there who are attracted to the same sex, but have sex only with the opposite sex because of religious reasons or because it is more socially acceptable, etc. George Rekers is a good recent example of this.
    Is the whole world crazy, or is it just me?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    How do you define being gay? Is it by who you are attracted to, or who you have sex with?
    Could I get some clarification on this? Don't adults who, we'll assume, can control their behavior, end up having sex only with who they're attracted to? I mean, look at other behaviors...

    Would someone say, "Hey, I never wanted to drive my new car into the bridge abutment, but despite the fact, I aimed for and plowed right into it." ?

    Or would someone say, "I can't stand chili, but despite the fact, I tied a bib around my neck and poured a whole kettle of 5-alarm chili down my throat." ?

    Does the logic for sane, adult behavior not apply to sexual behavior? What's the rationale? It was an "accident"? Ya have multiple personalities? Ya booted up in the default mode? How do ya rationalize it in the morning?
    I asked one clarification question of the OP, and in response you've asked me ten. Sorry, I'm not playing that game. My larger point was to draw out the silliness of the claim without initiating a flame war.
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum
    As someone who happens to be gay, I can say I never at any point decided to be attracted to men, and I have yet to find someone who is straight that has made a choice to be straight.
    I'll add my experience to this as well. I didn't wake up one day and choose my sexual orientation.

    Although, to bring this thread to something more substantial than the OP. "Gay" is a difficult thing to define in a world where sexual preferences are mutable and come loaded with cultural implications and biases. In some cultures only people who participate in receptive anal sex are considered to be different from heterosexuals, although this isn't quite the same as a Western conception of gayness. I personally could have sex with a woman if I really wanted to try (and I tried in high school ) , but it leaves me with an empty feeling, it's unfulfilling despite a certain base level of sexual attraction.

    Self-identifying as gay isn't necessarily the same thing as simply having an exclusive sexual attraction to others of the same sex. It does involve a certain amount of choice, a choice to identify culturally with a group that share certain experiences with yourself.
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    Yes, if someone's not living an honest life, they're not being true to themselves. Silly me, I just naturally assume people are being true to themselves.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    Could I get some clarification on this? Don't adults who, we'll assume, can control their behavior, end up having sex only with who they're attracted to? I mean, look at other behaviors...
    By that logic prostitutes are attracted to everyone they have sex with. Moreover, a capacity for arousal, from say manual stimulation, isn't the same as being attracted to an individual.


    Does the logic for sane, adult behavior not apply to sexual behavior? What's the rationale? It was an "accident"? Ya have multiple personalities? Ya booted up in the default mode? How do ya rationalize it in the morning?
    People who ignore homosexual attractions and practice a heterosexual lifestyle are like rationalizing it based on some religious basis, or are in denial. As mentioned before, George Reikers enjoys 1 hour nude massages from male prostitutes, but in his mind this doesn't make him gay or bisexual. As far as I know he only has adopted children, so I can't speak to what him and his wife do behind closed doors. Nonetheless, I'd assume that he's had sex with her at least once.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe
    Yes, if someone's not living an honest life, they're not being true to themselves. Silly me, I just naturally assume people are being true to themselves.
    The one problem with this is that it assumes people understand themselves fully.
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    I apologize in advance for the length of this, but I felt it important to provide a background on the id, ego and super ego to explain my thoughts on this subject. The last paragraph is down to business.

    People tend to be true to no one and literally 'act' as a character, playing to the expectations and interests of the collective in order to create the illusion of selflessness, when in fact it's all an attempt to make everyone like them for the id's selfish need to be loved. The ego unconsciously does this by acting as a mixing bowl between the two, using the super-ego's selfless nature to attain the id's selfish desire of social acceptance. This desire of the id manifests when the desires of the id and the super-ego conflict, for example having gay desires in a community of straight people. The ego remains safe from the scrutiny of the super-ego by unconsciously justifying the id's motives as being the motives of the super-ego, as the ego is blind to the larger scheme of things.

    This is the same battle that the religious dramas are based on. for example, the devil seeks to be like god for the power he commands and mimics him in order to achieve it. Falling victim to this is something every person is likely to do, and the moral stances applied to each state of mind are subject to the opinion of the collective, since it is entirely normal in nature for an animal to live selfishly.

    Some people who are born gay will do anything to 'fit in' and mimic their super-ego in order to secretly fulfill the desires of the id, since the two are in conflict with each other and create a disturbed ego. These people, knowing that they will be socially rejected were they to openly follow their true desires, compensate for the id's lack of attaining one desire by discretely achieving another. Some straight people will choose to be gay for the social acceptance, if they cannot find any being straight; this is a good example of the super-ego and the id being in harmony as they each can fulfill their own desires without conflicting with those of the other within the collective of the gay community, and the ego can eventually manifest in a 'peace of mind' in this balanced atmosphere.

    In this context, being gay or straight is a choice in the sense that you choose whether or not to follow your natural desires of the id, depending on whether or not they are in harmony with the super ego, whatever they may be. However, no one can choose what their true natural desires are, much like they cannot choose what the desires of the collective are. They can only choose how to cope.
    I prefer to use my right brain to study the universe rather than my left brain.
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    Wait a second! People have sex because they are attracted to each other! If person P has sex S1 and is attracted to S2, then Gay(P) = true <=> S1 = S2.
    Stupid is trial and error. Mostly error.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schiz0yd
    I apologize in advance for the length of this, but I felt it important to provide a background on the id, ego and super ego to explain my thoughts on this subject.
    The id, ego and superego are discredited concepts from a discredited pioneer.
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    The APA has found in studies that hypnotherapy is not effective at changing sexual orientation. However, it can help people with coming to terms with their sexual behavior.

    Edit: Also, I question whether something is a choice if it requires heavy conditioning, often involving drugs, like what they do in those church run straight camps in the US. I don't particularly like milk, but you wouldn't have to make me undergo shock therapy to make me drink it.

    Edit2: http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources...ientation.aspx
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    Homosexuality in terms of who you're attracted you or who you have sex with is not entirely determined by genes. Genes merely provide a chemical suggestion which can easily be overridden by the will of the mind (the brain will synthesize antagonist chemicals).
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    Quote Originally Posted by FractaLove358
    Genes merely provide a chemical suggestion which can easily be overridden by the will of the mind (the brain will synthesize antagonist chemicals).
    Is that like when guys have genes which provide a chemical suggestion that they want to have sex with a woman but they instead over-ride them with their mind by deciding to play dungeons and dragons and WoW?
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FractaLove358
    Homosexuality in terms of who you're attracted you or who you have sex with is not entirely determined by genes. Genes merely provide a chemical suggestion which can easily be overridden by the will of the mind (the brain will synthesize antagonist chemicals).
    Ok....do you have a reference for this? o.O
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Is that like when guys have genes which provide a chemical suggestion that they want to have sex with a woman but they instead over-ride them with their mind by deciding to play dungeons and dragons and WoW?
    Wait, are you saying WoW made me gay? All this time I thought it was the show tunes.
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Wait, are you saying WoW made me gay? All this time I thought it was the show tunes.
    Pure awesome.
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    A tough subject to introduce myself to the group thru, but I have a few questions for you.

    What are the experiences of those who are forming opinions on homosexuality? Have you quizzed gay friends or family members?

    I ask because in my family I have 2 gay uncles, and also have had one gay person who was a good friend and mentor, make a pass at me. (The two gay uncles are not related, being respectively, on my mom's and dad's sides of the family).

    I don't deny there may be a genetic disposition to homosexuality. I have a native American background where lots of gay men are accepted more readily than in other cultures.

    But if there is a genetic disposition, then couldn't there also be a trigger? I always looked at the lack of a father and/or a negative female influence could be a trigger. I know this is a view looked down upon, but in my experience it definitely seems to be the case.

    On the other hand, if those triggers mentioned above are real, then I would expect to be gay, which I am not. What about those who have posted who are homosexuals? Maybe it's too personal of a question?

    Anyone else out there have thoughts/opinions on this?
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  30. #29  
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    Those triggers have not panned out on scientific study.

    Like most gay men, I have a completely normal family history, both my father and mother present, never abused, involved in organized sports, went camping with my father, had normal amounts of friends. The cause is becoming more and more obviously genetic, and when we speak of environmental factors we are not talking about situations of abuse, but rather the same kind of environmental factors that shape heterosexual behavior.

    Edit: However, there is evidence of childhood abuse influencing abusive behavior by adults. Most convicted pedophiles often have a history of being molested as children.

    I also suggest that your uncles who made a pass at you have other issues besides their sexuality, especially if you were young at the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Those triggers have not panned out on scientific study.

    Like most gay men, I have a completely normal family history, both my father and mother present, never abused, involved in organized sports, went camping with my father, had normal amounts of friends. The cause is becoming more and more obviously genetic, and when we speak of environmental factors we are not talking about situations of abuse, but rather the same kind of environmental factors that shape heterosexual behavior.

    Edit: However, there is evidence of childhood abuse influencing abusive behavior by adults. Most convicted pedophiles often have a history of being molested as children.

    I also suggest that your uncles who made a pass at you have other issues besides their sexuality, especially if you were young at the time.
    Thanks for your honest reply, that's what I was wondering about P.S. The man who made a pass at me was not one of my uncles, but a friend, I suppose I could have given him some cue that I was not aware of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnterTheYeti

    Thanks for your honest reply, that's what I was wondering about P.S. The man who made a pass at me was not one of my uncles, but a friend, I suppose I could have given him some cue that I was not aware of.
    I wouldn't worry about it, people misread signals all the time. I've been asked out by women enough to know that people aren't as good at identifying other's sexuality as they think they are.
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  33. #32 Being a gay is choice 
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    You can say that being a gay is your choice but being a gay is not really a choice.
    You only conciser yourself as a gay if you are attracted to the same sex as yours but calling this a choice is something weird.
    Yes, it is true that legally if you accept that you are a gay no one can force you to stop being one but I don't think if we really call it a choice.
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    The New Scientist published an interesting article on this topic in 2008:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...osite-sex.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc
    I don't think anything is really a choice, it is just determined by our genes, environment and the laws of nature. I believe it is completely deterministic.
    Me too. I know a lot of guys who hate being gay because society has told them its "immoral" and "a crime against nature". Who would chose to be ridiculed in such a way?
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  36. #35 Re: Being a gay is choice 
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    Quote Originally Posted by chetanbhasin
    You can say that being a gay is your choice but being a gay is not really a choice.
    You only conciser yourself as a gay if you are attracted to the same sex as yours but calling this a choice is something weird.
    Yes, it is true that legally if you accept that you are a gay no one can force you to stop being one but I don't think if we really call it a choice.
    My dad is gay. Do you or anyone else have a fucking problem with it? I will gladly meet any single one of you in a public place to discuss the matter.
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  37. #36 Re: Being a gay is choice 
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Quote Originally Posted by chetanbhasin
    You can say that being a gay is your choice but being a gay is not really a choice.
    You only conciser yourself as a gay if you are attracted to the same sex as yours but calling this a choice is something weird.
    Yes, it is true that legally if you accept that you are a gay no one can force you to stop being one but I don't think if we really call it a choice.
    My dad is gay. Do you or anyone else have a fucking problem with it? I will gladly meet any single one of you in a public place to discuss the matter.
    I have a problem with your attitude to chetanbhasin. Re-read what he wrote, this time with your brain engaged. When you have done that apologise to him.
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  38. #37 Re: Being a gay is choice 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    Quote Originally Posted by chetanbhasin
    You can say that being a gay is your choice but being a gay is not really a choice.
    You only conciser yourself as a gay if you are attracted to the same sex as yours but calling this a choice is something weird.
    Yes, it is true that legally if you accept that you are a gay no one can force you to stop being one but I don't think if we really call it a choice.
    My dad is gay. Do you or anyone else have a fucking problem with it? I will gladly meet any single one of you in a public place to discuss the matter.
    I have a problem with your attitude to chetanbhasin. Re-read what he wrote, this time with your brain engaged. When you have done that apologise to him.
    Oh shit. I totally misread that and I apologize. NOT because Ophiolite told me to but because its the right thing to do.
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  39. #38 Re: Being a gay is choice 
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    Quote Originally Posted by chetanbhasin
    You can say that being a gay is your choice but being a gay is not really a choice.
    You only conciser yourself as a gay if you are attracted to the same sex as yours but calling this a choice is something weird.
    Yes, it is true that legally if you accept that you are a gay no one can force you to stop being one but I don't think if we really call it a choice.
    I just have problems with forcing people into sexual orientation labels. Sexuality is not a binary, in the way the public discourse would like to shape it. Some people are not always going to fall into a clear camp, and forcing people into adopting labels describing their sexual behavior strikes me as equally oppressive as anti-homosexual laws.
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    Homosexuality is a sexual preference; if you do not like chocolate you do not like chocolate, and you cannot persuade yourself to like chocolate, at least not in the short, medium-run; preferences may change in the long run. People are not born predetermined to like Coca-Cola over Pepsi, preferences derive from circumstances and societal factors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aletheia
    Homosexuality is a sexual preference; if you do not like chocolate you do not like chocolate, and you cannot persuade yourself to like chocolate, at least not in the short, medium-run; preferences may change in the long run. People are not born predetermined to like Coca-Cola over Pepsi, preferences derive from circumstances and societal factors.
    Actually many current scientific studies have shown than sexual orientation is not a preference. If you have evidence otherwise I would be happy to see it, but at this point I will stick with the science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum
    Quote Originally Posted by Aletheia
    Homosexuality is a sexual preference; if you do not like chocolate you do not like chocolate, and you cannot persuade yourself to like chocolate, at least not in the short, medium-run; preferences may change in the long run. People are not born predetermined to like Coca-Cola over Pepsi, preferences derive from circumstances and societal factors.
    Actually many current scientific studies have shown than sexual orientation is not a preference. If you have evidence otherwise I would be happy to see it, but at this point I will stick with the science.
    You are right and I apologize, I should have not made such assertion. Rather, it is a matter of opinion not sustained by any other than my own perspective of the matter. Moreover, if you could share any information which presents the argument I would be thankful. Many studies and researches provide only biased opinions, I have had my good share of these, and sadly I have lost trust in those results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aletheia
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum
    Quote Originally Posted by Aletheia
    Homosexuality is a sexual preference; if you do not like chocolate you do not like chocolate, and you cannot persuade yourself to like chocolate, at least not in the short, medium-run; preferences may change in the long run. People are not born predetermined to like Coca-Cola over Pepsi, preferences derive from circumstances and societal factors.
    Actually many current scientific studies have shown than sexual orientation is not a preference. If you have evidence otherwise I would be happy to see it, but at this point I will stick with the science.
    You are right and I apologize, I should have not made such assertion. Rather, it is a matter of opinion not sustained by any other than my own perspective of the matter. Moreover, if you could share any information which presents the argument I would be thankful. Many studies and researches provide only biased opinions, I have had my good share of these, and sadly I have lost trust in those results.
    Which articles have you read and why have you lost trust in them specifically?
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  44. #43 Re: Gays 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Bacat
    I think being gay is a choice.
    I think being an asshole is a choice.
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    Being gay is just as much of a choice as is to be racist. No one exactly "chooses" to be racist. They more than likely developed a racist outlook on others through environmental conditioning.

    The same can be said about not being racist. Growing up, those that surround you, that of your environment, you learn gradually from these components of life and eventually develop your mind to whatever it may be. Whether it be racist, not racist, gay, straight, smart, dumb, etc. etc.

    These are not "choices", per se. They're more along the lines of brain development. A conditioning of one's life determined through one's environment.

    As someone who's straight, I never made the "choice" of being straight. Though, I won't hide the fact that I've actually thought about whether I was gay, straight, or bi. I just ended up laying down and really processing what exactly I like (or love for that matter), in which I then came to the conclusion that I really had no interest in other men. Not out of some biasness, but rather out of understanding how I look at things.

    This of course was developed through a various course of years, but that's okay, because I'm happy for who I am. In which, I hope those who are gay, or those who are bi are happy with who they are as well.

    In the end, does it really matter whether it's a choice or not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Vegan Marxist
    Being gay is just as much of a choice as is to be racist.
    Not really, no.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Vegan Marxist
    In the end, does it really matter whether it's a choice or not?
    Yes, since this is part of what homophobes use as an argument that people "should not be gay," that they are "choosing" such a lifestyle and that it's wrong. Whereas if people get their head's out of their asses and realize it's natural, then it's much tougher to make the "it's wrong" argument... So I'd say, yes, it matters.

    Did you know that out of over 1500 animal species we've studied, that there are none where we have not found homosexual behavior?

    http://www.news-medical.net/?id=20718
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...gayanimal.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_...xual_behaviour


    You really have to ask yourself... Why do those animals CHOOSE to be gay?



    What about the studies below in humans? Did you know these? It would appear not, given your opening sentence in the previous post. Now you have no excuse to remain ignorant, since education has been provided. Cheers!



    A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation -- Hamer et al. 261 (5119): 321 -- Science
    The role of genetics in male sexual orientation was investigated by pedigree and linkage analyses on 114 families of homosexual men. Increased rates of same-sex orientation were found in the maternal uncles and male cousins of these subjects, but not in their fathers or paternal relatives, suggesting the possibility of sex-linked transmission in a portion of the population. DNA linkage analysis of a selected group of 40 families in which there were two gay brothers and no indication of nonmaternal transmission revealed a correlation between homosexual orientation and the inheritance of polymorphic markers on the X chromosome in approximately 64 percent of the sib-pairs tested. The linkage to markers on Xq28, the subtelomeric region of the long arm of the sex chromosome, had a multipoint lod score of 4.0 (P = 10(-5), indicating a statistical confidence level of more than 99 percent that at least one subtype of male sexual orientation is genetically influenced.

    Evidence for maternally inherited factors favouring male homosexuality and promoting female fecundity ? Proceedings B
    The Darwinian paradox of male homosexuality in humans is examined, i.e. if male homosexuality has a genetic component and homosexuals reproduce less than heterosexuals, then why is this trait maintained in the population? In a sample of 98 homosexual and 100 heterosexual men and their relatives (a total of over 4600 individuals), we found that female maternal relatives of homosexuals have higher fecundity than female maternal relatives of heterosexuals and that this difference is not found in female paternal relatives. The study confirms previous reports, in particular that homosexuals have more maternal than paternal male homosexual relatives, that homosexual males are more often later-born than first–born and that they have more older brothers than older sisters. We discuss the findings and their implications for current research on male homosexuality.

    A genetic study of male sexual orientation
    Homosexual male probands with monozygotic cotwins, dizygotic cotwins, or adoptive brothers were recruited using homophile publications. Sexual orientation of relatives was assessed either by asking relatives directly, or when this was impossible, asking the probands. Of the relatives whose sexual orientation could be rated, 52% (29/56) of monozygotic cotwins, 22% (12/54) of dizygotic cotwins, and 11% (6/57) of adoptive brothers were homosexual. Heritabilities were substantial under a wide range of assumptions about the population base rate of homosexuality and ascertainment bias

    Familiality of female and male homosexuality
    We examined data from a large cohort of homosexual and heterosexual females and males concerning their siblings' sexual orientations. As in previous studies, both male and female homosexuality were familial. Homosexual females had an excess of homosexual brothers compared to heteroxual subjects, thus providing evidence that similar familial factors influence both male and female homosexuality. Furthermore, despite the large sample size, homosexual females and males did not differ significantly from each other in their proportions of either homosexual sisters or homosexual brothers. Thus, results were most consistent with the possibility that similar familial factors influence male and female sexual orientation.

    We also examined whether some parental influences comprised shared environmental effects on sexual orientation. Scales attempting to measure such influences failed to distinguish subjects with homosexual siblings from subjects with only heterosexual siblings and, thus, did not appear to measure shared environmental determinants of sexual orientation.

    There's plenty more where that came from. Please advise if sharing it would be useful, or if my point has been adequately made.
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    Thank you comrade. I'll be sure to look over these studies.
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    My speculation: Humans have some genes responsible for heterosexual instinct. In some those genes are switched off, however that doesn't inhibit their development of sexual urges and inclinations. That's a process that puberty guarantees in any case. So people without the hetero instinct may grow attracted to anything, really - it could be the opposite sex, or same sex, or something unusual. Most will fix on obvious, socially endorsed sex objects. Like everybody else, the game of their desire weights objects that are hard to get.

    Why a portion of the population have genes that promote breeding switched off? This appears to be the normal and successful strategy of all hive species. Humans are a hive species.


    Anyway, regarding "gay is a choice". I'd say people may be born *queer* i.e. "non-breeder", but they have the power to aim their attentions and eventual obsessions, mostly during puberty. I strongly doubt anybody is born with homosexual instincts.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Pong - Is it possible that you did you not read the post I shared yesterday, or are you perhaps choosing to ignore the content? It's fairly clear.

    Regardless of what you believe, study after study after study have shown that it's not a choice, and this is reinforced by what we see in the rest of the animal kingdom... That it is genetic.
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    I said that people are born *queer*... and no choice about that. This is different than born *homosexual*. If you understand the difference, I think you'll agree with me.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I said that people are born *queer*... and no choice about that. This is different than born *homosexual*. If you understand the difference, I think you'll agree with me.
    I'm gay and I don't understand the difference you are trying to make, please explain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    My speculation: Humans have some genes responsible for heterosexual instinct. In some those genes are switched off, however that doesn't inhibit their development of sexual urges and inclinations. That's a process that puberty guarantees in any case. So people without the hetero instinct may grow attracted to anything, really - it could be the opposite sex, or same sex, or something unusual. Most will fix on obvious, socially endorsed sex objects. Like everybody else, the game of their desire weights objects that are hard to get.

    Why a portion of the population have genes that promote breeding switched off? This appears to be the normal and successful strategy of all hive species. Humans are a hive species.


    Anyway, regarding "gay is a choice". I'd say people may be born *queer* i.e. "non-breeder", but they have the power to aim their attentions and eventual obsessions, mostly during puberty. I strongly doubt anybody is born with homosexual instincts.
    How exactly are you defining what a heterosexual instinct is, or what exactly a homosexual instinct is. This is all highly tenuous and just seems to be operating off of an unfounded bias that heterosexuality is somehow some sort of strong easily identifiable pillar of human behavior, and that queers are just the odd ones out. Such an approach requires ignoring the vast diversity of sexual behaviors that are heterosexual, or not effected by gender at all.

    To quote Judith Halberstam, "Just because Batman is male and Catwoman is female does not make their interactions heterosexual - think about it, there is nothing straight about two people getting it on in rubber and latex costumes, wearing eyemasks and carrying whips and other accoutrements."

    Where exactly is the evidence that suggests anything about homosexual psychosexual development being so fundamentally different from heterosexual psychosexual development. Besides there is no lack of desire by homosexuals to breed, or raise offspring.
    "I almost went to bed
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    I hate how respected news organizations refer to homosexuals as "the gays"...I was listening to the news about Obama signing the bill that would end "don't ask, don't tell" (which in modern times is an idiotic thing to even consider enforcing) on CNN and heard "this is a major milestone for the gays". WTF?! You never hear heterosexuals referred to as "the straights"...how retarded...
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    I think I actually prefer the gays, although that has the connotation of excluding lesbians and bisexuals which are also often effective by gay rights legislation. The word homosexual has origins in a 19th century medicalization of sexual behavior, it originally implied mental illness. Gay at least, for me, has cultural associations and is an appropriated word that gays took on themselves.

    For some reason, people seem to think that "homosexuals" is the appropriate PC term. Lesbian and gay are the PC terms, or to be more broad the LGBT community.

    Of course, those of us influenced by current trends in academia may favour "queer" as a refutation of the notion of rigid sexual orientation categories, but that word is still highly offensive for many older members of the community and is a bit controversial.

    Edit: No word is ever going to make everyone happy though, I know someone who is essentially a butch lesbian, but if you called her a lesbian she'd throw a little fit, if you happened to mistake her for a boy, or even better call her a faggot, she'd be beaming.
    "I almost went to bed
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    Someone on another forum made this argument against the idea that sexual orientation was genetically determined:

    More towards the genetic argument? Their arguments almost always try to make the case for a gay gene, so it's not like we can say that we accept a moderate form of genetic determination if we admit that their arguments are somewhat plausible. If we accept the plausibility of their arguments at all, we are locked into a rigid genetic determinism.

    You mention predisposition, but again, the question is: at what level of abstraction are genes disposing people to behave sexually? Are they predisposing some people into enjoying certain sexual activities more than others, certain sexual positions more than others, certain features of sexual partners more than others (height? weight? sex? age? hair color?)? A good critique of a lot of this science can also be found in a book called "Ambiguity and Sexuality."

    Most of the interesting ideological work in these gay gene studies goes on before the study is ever off the ground, when the scientists are defining exactly what they mean by sexual orientation.
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    SEXUAL ORIENTATION (From embryo masculinization of body and brain)

    All embryos begin as female; if it’s to be a male it needs to be masculinized in both body and brain, but, sometimes, only one or the other happens, so…

    MaleBrain + MaleBody = hetero male
    MaleBody + FemaleBrain = gay male
    FemaleBrain + FemaleBody = hetero female
    FemaleBody + MaleBrain = lesbian female
    MaleBody + FemaleBody = hermaphrodite (oppositional mixing)
    MaleBrain + FemaleBrain = bisexual (oppositional mixing)
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  57. #56  
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    Quote Originally Posted by questor
    SEXUAL ORIENTATION (From embryo masculinization of body and brain)

    All embryos begin as female; if it’s to be a male it needs to be masculinized in both body and brain, but, sometimes, only one or the other happens, so…

    MaleBrain + MaleBody = hetero male
    MaleBody + FemaleBrain = gay male
    FemaleBrain + FemaleBody = hetero female
    FemaleBody + MaleBrain = lesbian female
    MaleBody + FemaleBody = hermaphrodite (oppositional mixing)
    MaleBrain + FemaleBrain = bisexual (oppositional mixing)
    It's no where near that simple though. There have been some similarities in brain function, but gay men do not have female brains.

    "More towards the genetic argument? Their arguments almost always try to make the case for a gay gene, so it's not like we can say that we accept a moderate form of genetic determination if we admit that their arguments are somewhat plausible. If we accept the plausibility of their arguments at all, we are locked into a rigid genetic determinism.

    You mention predisposition, but again, the question is: at what level of abstraction are genes disposing people to behave sexually? Are they predisposing some people into enjoying certain sexual activities more than others, certain sexual positions more than others, certain features of sexual partners more than others (height? weight? sex? age? hair color?)? A good critique of a lot of this science can also be found in a book called "Ambiguity and Sexuality."

    This argument is severely flawed. It doesn't follow that if it could be determined that my preference for vanilla ice cream over chocolate ice cream had some biological basis that every element of my behavior is entirely determined rigidly by genes. It also requires an ignorance of how biological phenotypes are determined, which is genes + environment = phenotype. Genes are always involved in producing any phenotype, at some level, you have to have a functioning brain to have any sort of personality after all. Think of height, height has a genetic component, but it also has an environmental component, which is nutrition.

    That last paragraph that I didn't quote is nonsense, you have to define your terms in any behavioral study so that it can be compared with other studies.

    Although, there are ambiguities in defining sexual behaviors and grouping people along what I think are pretty much arbitrarily determined lines of human sexual behavior. We have mostly moved homosexuality from being something aberrant into a Kinsey like spectrum of normal behavior that includes homosexuality and heterosexuality. That approach is naive I think, it does certainly ignore how many different sexual behaviors exist. However, this doesn't negate the fact that genetics can have a significant effect on our sexual behavior, all it demonstrates is is that our terminology is deficient.
    "I almost went to bed
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    I put in the button-hole
    of your green sweater

    and how i kissed you then
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    shy as though I'd
    never been your lover "
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    It doesn't follow that if it could be determined that my preference for vanilla ice cream over chocolate ice cream had some biological basis that every element of my behavior is entirely determined rigidly by genes..
    Well, there are three general categories of taste buds, and we do see that sometimes someone else says "Taste this; it's great", and we do, but it isn't. There is also acquired taste, such as beer tasting horrible for the first ten times, but then tasting OK on a really hot day, and then eventually tasting OK all the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy

    This argument is severely flawed. It doesn't follow that if it could be determined that my preference for vanilla ice cream over chocolate ice cream had some biological basis that every element of my behavior is entirely determined rigidly by genes. It also requires an ignorance of how biological phenotypes are determined, which is genes + environment = phenotype. Genes are always involved in producing any phenotype, at some level, you have to have a functioning brain to have any sort of personality after all. Think of height, height has a genetic component, but it also has an environmental component, which is nutrition.

    That last paragraph that I didn't quote is nonsense, you have to define your terms in any behavioral study so that it can be compared with other studies.

    Although, there are ambiguities in defining sexual behaviors and grouping people along what I think are pretty much arbitrarily determined lines of human sexual behavior. We have mostly moved homosexuality from being something aberrant into a Kinsey like spectrum of normal behavior that includes homosexuality and heterosexuality. That approach is naive I think, it does certainly ignore how many different sexual behaviors exist. However, this doesn't negate the fact that genetics can have a significant effect on our sexual behavior, all it demonstrates is is that our terminology is deficient.
    I quoted what you said, and he responded with this:

    Obviously genes plus environment equals phenotype. Nobody is disputing that. What I am disputing is the idea that the aspect of sexual desire that can and should be explained genetically is only the biological sex of the person one is attracted to. In other words, I am challenging whether a gene that predisposes people to prefer certain types of sexual partner is necessarily a gene that guides us to attraction toward a particular sex, rather than some other major phenotypic feature such as weight, height, age, etc.

    The problem here is that your friend is still operating under the flawed assumption that the one aspect of sexual behavior that needs to be studied in order to determine whether it has a genetic basis is the biological sex of the person somebody is attracted to. Again, this is totally the product of our current historically specific paradigm of classifying "orientations" as homosexual and heterosexual on the basis of sex of preferred object choice, while classifying every other sexual predilection as a lifestyle or even a paraphilia. Your friend is right that genetics can have a significant effect on our sexual behavior. He is wrong in saying that this means studies looking for a "gay gene" are not problematic. They are, because they craft their studies under the assumption that the genetic mechanism determining sexuality operates according to our socially constructed categories of sexuality. Sorry, but just because we divide people into heterosexual and homosexual does not mean that our genes act the same way. That's just too simple, and the science just too ideological.
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    I don't think studies looking at sexuality aren't at times problematic, that isn't the point. Studies have limitations, expecting them to explain every possible variable is impossible. We can only attempt to study certain variables and determine if there seems to be a relationship.

    Scientist understand the labels to just be functional, for ease of terminology and reference, and not signifying some objective rigid definition. These studies are looking at genetic connection to one main variable, sexual orientation identity in adults. The attitude he disagrees with comes from a misunderstanding of science, not from what the scientific studies actually try to achieve. It seems like the usual post-modernist twisting of science that operates from naive assumptions of scientific attitudes and understandings. I'm sure they apply to some scientist, they're human beings after all and subject to biases just like anyone else, but any reasonably educated scientist today is aware of the limitations of the scientific method and are wary of making the overarching claims like suggesting that a "gay gene" exists that produces a modern homosexual identity, which would be ridiculous because such an identity relies on cultural constructs that are also intertwined with complex understandings of gender.

    Edit: I've read Foucault, Sedgwick, and Butler so I'm familiar with these criticisms.
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    One could argue that nature is actually trying to decrease the population(of the world) by "naturally selecting" people to be homosexual.

    Oh wait I don't think that explains the concept of naturally selection. But , still consider it.
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    Well. I don't think that being gay is a "destiny" I think that the people that choose to be gay do it because they choice to because of something they believe in.

    They say 1 out of 10 is gay so it's very common.

    I think being gay is evolution's way of saying that the sexes are drifting farther apart and there is no stop until everyone is the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatoz
    I think that the people that choose to be gay do it because they choice to because of something they believe in.
    Who chooses to be gay?

    Meatoz - I propose you read this post which you seem to have missed: http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewt...=271801#271801
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatoz
    Well. I don't think that being gay is a "destiny" I think that the people that choose to be gay do it because they choice to because of something they believe in.
    Like what?

    And then the second part you mention evolution causing it. So which is it, a choice or evolution...

    Besides, homosexual behavior is documented in the literature of pretty much every literate culture in history.

    Or to quote Christopher Marlowe, a playwright from the 16th century:

    "The mightiest kings have had their minions:
    Great Alexander loved Hephaestion;
    The conquering Hercules for Hylas wept;
    And for Patroclus stern Achiles drooped.
    And not kings only, but the wisest men:
    The Roman Tully loved Octavius,
    Grave Socrates, wild Alcibiades."

    This stuff has been around for ages.
    "I almost went to bed
    without remembering
    the four white violets
    I put in the button-hole
    of your green sweater

    and how i kissed you then
    and you kissed me
    shy as though I'd
    never been your lover "
    - Leonard Cohen
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Quote Originally Posted by Meatoz
    Well. I don't think that being gay is a "destiny" I think that the people that choose to be gay do it because they choice to because of something they believe in.
    Like what?

    And then the second part you mention evolution causing it. So which is it, a choice or evolution...

    Besides, homosexual behavior is documented in the literature of pretty much every literate culture in history.

    Or to quote Christopher Marlowe, a playwright from the 16th century:

    "The mightiest kings have had their minions:
    Great Alexander loved Hephaestion;
    The conquering Hercules for Hylas wept;
    And for Patroclus stern Achiles drooped.
    And not kings only, but the wisest men:
    The Roman Tully loved Octavius,
    Grave Socrates, wild Alcibiades."

    This stuff has been around for ages.
    I mean. You don't choose to be gay.

    I meant that they are forced to become gay because their under consciousness give them no option.

    I do not know what make them gay, but probably a mix of nature and nurture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatoz
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Quote Originally Posted by Meatoz
    Well. I don't think that being gay is a "destiny" I think that the people that choose to be gay do it because they choice to because of something they believe in.
    Like what?

    And then the second part you mention evolution causing it. So which is it, a choice or evolution...

    Besides, homosexual behavior is documented in the literature of pretty much every literate culture in history.

    Or to quote Christopher Marlowe, a playwright from the 16th century:

    "The mightiest kings have had their minions:
    Great Alexander loved Hephaestion;
    The conquering Hercules for Hylas wept;
    And for Patroclus stern Achiles drooped.
    And not kings only, but the wisest men:
    The Roman Tully loved Octavius,
    Grave Socrates, wild Alcibiades."

    This stuff has been around for ages.
    I mean. You don't choose to be gay.

    I meant that they are forced to become gay because their under consciousness give them no option.

    I do not know what make them gay, but probably a mix of nature and nurture.
    Forced? Interesting wording choice. Are people the also "forced" to be straight?
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    My speculation: Humans have some genes responsible for heterosexual instinct. In some those genes are switched off, however that doesn't inhibit their development of sexual urges and inclinations. That's a process that puberty guarantees in any case. So people without the hetero instinct may grow attracted to anything, really - it could be the opposite sex, or same sex, or something unusual. Most will fix on obvious, socially endorsed sex objects. Like everybody else, the game of their desire weights objects that are hard to get.

    Why a portion of the population have genes that promote breeding switched off? This appears to be the normal and successful strategy of all hive species. Humans are a hive species.


    Anyway, regarding "gay is a choice". I'd say people may be born *queer* i.e. "non-breeder", but they have the power to aim their attentions and eventual obsessions, mostly during puberty. I strongly doubt anybody is born with homosexual instincts.
    How exactly are you defining what a heterosexual instinct is, or what exactly a homosexual instinct is. This is all highly tenuous and just seems to be operating off of an unfounded bias that heterosexuality is somehow some sort of strong easily identifiable pillar of human behavior, and that queers are just the odd ones out. Such an approach requires ignoring the vast diversity of sexual behaviors that are heterosexual, or not effected by gender at all.

    To quote Judith Halberstam, "Just because Batman is male and Catwoman is female does not make their interactions heterosexual - think about it, there is nothing straight about two people getting it on in rubber and latex costumes, wearing eyemasks and carrying whips and other accoutrements."

    Where exactly is the evidence that suggests anything about homosexual psychosexual development being so fundamentally different from heterosexual psychosexual development. Besides there is no lack of desire by homosexuals to breed, or raise offspring.
    Heterosexual instincts, like we see in other species. Isn't this more reasonable than saying humans are uniquely exempt from sexual instincts except for gays "born gay"? I'm saying (controversially) there is no gene whose presence causes homosexuality, rather some of us are born without genes whose presence would have nudged us towards heterosexuality.

    People lacking straight genes I call "queer" for purposes of this argument. They are neither specifically heterosexual or homosexual.

    Whether born queer or straight, we all experience sexual urges that channel as interests, fixations, even fetishes. This development includes a good deal of positive feedback, so that a vague or incidental preference becomes a strong preference. Thus we develop "types" and traits we're most attracted to, and so forth. The difference for those with breeder-genes is they have an instinctual cue toward the opposite sex, which (with puberty) they've built upon and elaborated. Batman is an elaboration, subtly cued by heterosexual instinct and powered by the basic sex drive common to all.

    "unfounded bias that heterosexuality is somehow some sort of strong easily identifiable pillar of human behavior" No, I think heterosexual instinct a very slight push in one direction. The strong pillar of human behaviour is our common drive to make a big deal out of whatever caught our glance in the first place.

    So, people can't stop themselves from developing sexual orientations. We may have subtle hard-wired inclinations. We all have different early experiences and reactions to the cultures we're raised in. I do believe we have some choice, because we can choose where to focus our attentions. Can't turn back the clock though e.g. if you focussed your attention on brests at age 15 you'll probably always like them.
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    Physiology explains a certain conduct of energy movement in the back of the skull, I forgot but basically with a male / female clockwise rotation exhibits masculinity and when this goes the opposite on the same male person feels feminine or so as they explain
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Bacat View Post
    I think being gay is a choice.
    Well then, what's stopping you?
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    Can we please stop pretending there's anything like a rigid definition of such terms as gay/straight/bent etc?
    Take for instance the average so called heterosexual male of say 25 years age. Lock him up in jail or put him on board a submarine for a considerable time and watch the definitions melt away.
    How do you define women, and there are an increasing number of them today, who are turned on by watching male/male sexual activity?
    What do you call someone who'se entire sexual activity consists of masturbation?
    The list could go on but can we stop this martian V earthlings division and simply discuss behaviours?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatoz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Quote Originally Posted by Meatoz
    Well. I don't think that being gay is a "destiny" I think that the people that choose to be gay do it because they choice to because of something they believe in.
    Like what?

    And then the second part you mention evolution causing it. So which is it, a choice or evolution...

    Besides, homosexual behavior is documented in the literature of pretty much every literate culture in history.

    Or to quote Christopher Marlowe, a playwright from the 16th century:

    "The mightiest kings have had their minions:
    Great Alexander loved Hephaestion;
    The conquering Hercules for Hylas wept;
    And for Patroclus stern Achiles drooped.
    And not kings only, but the wisest men:
    The Roman Tully loved Octavius,
    Grave Socrates, wild Alcibiades."

    This stuff has been around for ages.
    I mean. You don't choose to be gay.

    I meant that they are forced to become gay because their under consciousness give them no option.

    I do not know what make them gay, but probably a mix of nature and nurture.
    So then, what kind of 'nature/nurture made me equally happy making love to both males and females of our species? In fact what kind of backgound or genetics makes me even happier when I'm the meat in the sandwich between a male and a female?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dissily Mordentroge View Post
    The list could go on but can we stop this martian V earthlings division and simply discuss behaviours?
    Behaviours like re-opening a 3 year old thread, of which most of the participants no longer post?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dissily Mordentroge View Post
    The list could go on but can we stop this martian V earthlings division and simply discuss behaviours?
    Behaviours like re-opening a 3 year old thread, of which most of the participants no longer post?
    Well then we'd best avoid discussing topics such as the significance of Francis Bacon's writings or Aristotle's contribution to biology or Einstien's contribution to - - - - - - - -
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    I think you've missed the point.
    But never mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    I think you've missed the point.
    But never mind.
    No, I side stepped it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dissily Mordentroge View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    I think you've missed the point.
    But never mind.
    No, I side stepped it.
    Cute, but it's against forum etiquette and could get you suspended if you do it too much.

    If you have something significant to say, your best bet is to start a new thread. Otherwise, you're talking to members who are no longer here.
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    I dont believe it is always a life style choice. If people are born gay then that would be a good indicator that it is natures doing. Why do people think that male and females are here to only be heterosexual ?
    I think there are probably more bisexual people than who care to admit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dissily Mordentroge View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    I think you've missed the point.
    But never mind.
    No, I side stepped it.
    Cute, but it's against forum etiquette and could get you suspended if you do it too much.

    If you have something significant to say, your best bet is to start a new thread. Otherwise, you're talking to members who are no longer here.
    That's probably the most humourless response I've ever received on a forum of any kind. I'm no longer here either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FractaLove358 View Post
    Homosexuality in terms of who you're attracted you or who you have sex with is not entirely determined by genes. Genes merely provide a chemical suggestion which can easily be overridden by the will of the mind (the brain will synthesize antagonist chemicals).

    Yes, it's called acting. They do it in Hollywood all the time, but I'm not sure it's a good way to live ones entire life.
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 09:24 PM.
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    There were claims that 50% of adult Berliners had some same sex experience. Definitely not an inborn thing.
    There's a world of difference between anyone of any "inborn" orientation being sexually adventurous or downright foolish and what people prefer when they're not experimenting or when they're looking for a long-term or lifelong partner.

    What people are willing to do or able to cope with when they're in a stressful environment or in a drunken or drug-fuelled orgy (hello 1930s Berlin of Cabaret fame) doesn't say much about what they want when they're in full control of how they live and who they live with.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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  82. #81  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    I think claims that 5-7% of all population are inborn gays sound insane.
    And this figure comes from...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    I do not claim that homosexuality always a choice, but from different sources it follows it is often a choice.
    For example, all Roman emperors with exception of Claudius took male lovers. It was widespread in Ancient World,
    and not because all who practiced were inborn gays. Maybe there could be some inborn gays, but how many?
    I think claims that 5-7% of all population are inborn gays sound insane. It is not biologically believable.
    There were claims that 50% of adult Berliners had some same sex experience. Definitely not an inborn thing.
    Why exactly do you think its insane?

    You comment on gay, the proceed with the rest of your post to talk about bisexuality. Learn the difference before ranting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    I do not claim that homosexuality always a choice, but from different sources it follows it is often a choice.
    For example, all Roman emperors with exception of Claudius took male lovers. It was widespread in Ancient World,
    and not because all who practiced were inborn gays. Maybe there could be some inborn gays, but how many?
    I think claims that 5-7% of all population are inborn gays sound insane. It is not biologically believable.
    There were claims that 50% of adult Berliners had some same sex experience. Definitely not an inborn thing.
    You've got to consider the possibility that "gay", "straight", "bi", and several other sexual denominations, are arbitrary and subjective terms we use to self-identify our sexual orientations. I doubt anyone is "born gay", nor do I think people "choose" to be gay. Twin studies have shown that same-sex attraction definitely has a genetic factor, but also has an environmental one. Some people experiment, are influenced to experiment, have attractions they've developed on their own, and even have attractions they refuse to acknowledge. Classifying orientations is just a way to bring some order to an otherwise chaotic thing we call sexuality. The point is that nobody is born with, or chooses to have the attractions they have. The only thing that's a choice is whether or not they act on them.
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    This is an odd but interesting point of view, and I would like to ask that we explore if the following sentence holds true.

    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    The point is that nobody is born with, or chooses to have the attractions they have.
    • scoobydoo1 isn't born with the sexual attractions he has. (True/False)
    • scoobydoo1 did not get to choose the sexual attractions he has. (True/False)


    • stander-j isn't born with the sexual attraction he/she has. (True/False)
    • stander-j did not get to choose the sexual attraction he/she has. (True/False)

    If the answer is True for both variations, what can that tell us? And should even one answer be False, what can we then gather from that result?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    This is an odd but interesting point of view, and I would like to ask that we explore if the following sentence holds true.

    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    The point is that nobody is born with, or chooses to have the attractions they have.
    • scoobydoo1 isn't born with the sexual attractions he has. (True/False)
    • scoobydoo1 did not get to choose the sexual attractions he has. (True/False)

    • stander-j isn't born with the sexual attraction he/she has. (True/False)
    • stander-j did not get to choose the sexual attraction he/she has. (True/False)
    If the answer is True for both variations, what can that tell us? And should even one answer be False, what can we then gather from that result?
    Absolutely nothing other than Sexuality isn't necessarily innate -or- a choice in any given circumstance. That everybody, everywhere, is somewhere on a spectrum that is influenced by both genetics and environment - and that attraction is never a choice.
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    I can agree that being gay is a choice just like how being straight is a choice. Everyone is entitled to be and decide what type of person they want to be there's nothing wrong with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssk1777 View Post
    I can agree that being gay is a choice just like how being straight is a choice. Everyone is entitled to be and decide what type of person they want to be there's nothing wrong with that.
    Do you "choose" to be attracted to the people you are attracted to? Or are you simply attracted to them, and "choose" to act on it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ssk1777 View Post
    I can agree that being gay is a choice just like how being straight is a choice. Everyone is entitled to be and decide what type of person they want to be there's nothing wrong with that.
    Do you "choose" to be attracted to the people you are attracted to? Or are you simply attracted to them, and "choose" to act on it?
    If you are attracted to certain people you usually choose who you are most attracted to. Than you decide to act on it because acting on it is a choice you have to make just like the choice of who you are attracted to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    That everybody, everywhere, is somewhere on a spectrum that is influenced by both genetics and environment - and that attraction is never a choice.
    Do correct me If I misunderstood what you have said.

    "We are born with the (biological?) capacity for sexual attractions to different sexes that can express itself when combined with environmental factors, and our sexual attraction to the different sexes in itself is never a conscious (as in willful) choice. "

    Is that accurate and acceptable?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    That everybody, everywhere, is somewhere on a spectrum that is influenced by both genetics and environment - and that attraction is never a choice.
    Do correct me If I misunderstood what you have said.

    "We are born with the (biological?) capacity for sexual attractions to different sexes that can express itself when combined with environmental factors, and our sexual attraction to the different sexes in itself is never a conscious (as in willful) choice. "

    Is that accurate and acceptable?
    Simply put: Yes.

    However:

    I don't think people are simply born with an equal capacity to have hetero/homosexual attractions (As in everybody starts out at a perfect 0 "bisexual"" and end up identifying their sexuality however they do).

    I think everyone has said capacities - but that they are born with predispositions (Ex: I might be born with a -0.43 disposition, meaning I am that much more inclined towards a specific sex attraction), which environment plays an integral role in shaping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    I don't think people are simply born with a capacity to have hetero/homosexual attractions. I think, to some extent, everyone has said capacities - but that they are born with predispositions. Those dispositions, however, are not absolute - environment plays an integral role as well.
    Thank you, I think I understand your position a little better now.

    Are there any thoughts on the different type of environmental triggers that may exists to mold/shape sexual attractions to different sexes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    I don't think people are simply born with a capacity to have hetero/homosexual attractions. I think, to some extent, everyone has said capacities - but that they are born with predispositions. Those dispositions, however, are not absolute - environment plays an integral role as well.
    Thank you, I think I understand your position a little better now.

    Are there any thoughts on the different type of environmental triggers that may exists to mold/shape sexual attractions to different sexes?
    My opinion: I think a lot of it plays into how shared (familial) and unshared (friends, coworkers, etc) perceive orientation identities, and how the person in question perceives those opinions. For instance: Let's pretend I am born with a "gay" disposition, and my family is very intolerant of homosexuality. Depending on other dispositions I may have - I might assimilate or rebel against those beliefs. Same goes for unshared environments. I also think that everyone's sexuality is a "work in progress". I believe that sexuality is continually shaped over time.

    What I know: That identical twins raised in different families don't always identify themselves as having the same sexual orientations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssk1777 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ssk1777 View Post
    I can agree that being gay is a choice just like how being straight is a choice. Everyone is entitled to be and decide what type of person they want to be there's nothing wrong with that.
    Do you "choose" to be attracted to the people you are attracted to? Or are you simply attracted to them, and "choose" to act on it?
    If you are attracted to certain people you usually choose who you are most attracted to. Than you decide to act on it because acting on it is a choice you have to make just like the choice of who you are attracted to.
    I don't quite follow your reasoning. Let's say you are attracted to both a male and a female, but more attracted to the female... Despite the fact that you are more attracted to the female, can you change -or- "choose" to not be attracted to the male? Or is that you can only make a choice based on the options of people you are attracted to (whom you cannot help being attracted to)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssk1777 View Post
    If you are attracted to certain people you usually choose who you are most attracted to.
    Does not compute.
    If being attracted to someone is not particularly a choice how do you work out that you can decide which one you're most attracted to?
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    Being gay doesn't undermine society. And humans are complex, to presume we must "all be the same" is simplistic and archaic thinking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Being gay doesn't undermine society. And humans are complex, to presume we must "all be the same" is simplistic and archaic thinking.
    I agree. I have had numerous debates about homosexuality etc.... I have seen comments from people (guys) who quite vehemently express a distaste for homosexual acts but who also admit to liking and wanting to put their penis in to a womans mouth. Go figure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ssk1777 View Post
    If you are attracted to certain people you usually choose who you are most attracted to.
    Does not compute.
    If being attracted to someone is not particularly a choice how do you work out that you can decide which one you're most attracted to?
    Exactly.

    If you choose to like someone then surely you would have the ability to stop yourself finding them attractive. So, with this in mind, think of the phrase 'love hurts'?
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    If it's a choice, so what? It's a choice that doesn't hurt society or others. Yes, there is offence, meh..offence is completely subjective. My neighbour may hate the colour red and if he sees my gf and I going to the movies in red shirts, he may lobby our MP to get red banned..
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