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Thread: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot?

  1. #1 Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Raëlians believe that all life on Earth, humans included, was created scientifically by human-like extra terrestrials that are more scientifically advanced than us, called the Elohim, using DNA synthesis and genetic engineering and thus believe in intelligent design.

    But so far not even our most powerful telescopes can see any evidence of any extraterrestrials, including the Elohim. Unless you believe the fossilized microbe in mars rock is evidence for extra-terrestrial life.

    Our current technology is now good enough to spot hundreds of planets indirectly. Of course, we're not advanced enough to spot a couple of earth-like planets directly outside our solar system, which should immediately make it clear whether they are common or rare, but still, isn't it a bit strange?

    The oldest planet in our galaxy found so far is thought to be 12.7 billion years old.
    Our planet is 4 billion years old.
    Plenty of time for them to get so advanced they would seem to have godlike abilities to us.

    Even if it's extremely rare for an alien civilazation to thrive, why don't we see anything out of the ordinary in our or in other galaxies? Why don't we see any mega-structures? inter-galactic war? Stars blowing up because of mega-deathstar destroyers? A sign in the skies?

    If not so rare, why do we not even see any Dyson spheres in our galaxy?
    I would say that there should be more than enough time for an alien civilization more advanced than ours to build one and they wouldn't have to travel so far in order to do this.

    When I find articles about this, I find this argument "Humans are so arrogant to think that they're the only ones in the universe" common in believers.
    Isn't this just another version of believing in an invisible sky daddy?
    They also believe they could look like anything, so that could mean hobgoblins, unicorns, fairies, thor, flying spaghetti monsters, celestial teapots... the list would go on and on.

    Oh well... at least we know where to look...beyond our current scope.


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  3. #2  
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    I wonder if the Elohim have fruitcakes as well?


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    Sofar nothing indicates you can travel faster then the speed of light. Or even at it really considering the energy requirements.

    So even if there´s doglike (edit : LOL meant godlike, left typo for a laugh tho ) aliens. They would need many many many bilion of years to get around everywhere to explore. If that´s even something they would want.

    I mean, let´s say you were "godlike", would you want to spend 2 MILION years traveling to the closest Galaxy? source

    The distances are so insane in the Universe, that even if someone reach super intelligence, unless they know ways around the speed of light.. it´s pretty unlikely we meet still.
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  5. #4 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by _sluimers_
    Raëlians believe that all life on Earth, humans included, was created scientifically by human-like extra terrestrials that are more scientifically advanced than us, called the Elohim, using DNA synthesis and genetic engineering and thus believe in intelligent design.

    But so far not even our most powerful telescopes can see any evidence of any extraterrestrials, including the Elohim. Unless you believe the fossilized microbe in mars rock is evidence for extra-terrestrial life.

    Our current technology is now good enough to spot hundreds of planets indirectly. Of course, we're not advanced enough to spot a couple of earth-like planets directly outside our solar system, which should immediately make it clear whether they are common or rare, but still, isn't it a bit strange?

    The oldest planet in our galaxy found so far is thought to be 12.7 billion years old.
    Our planet is 4 billion years old.
    Plenty of time for them to get so advanced they would seem to have godlike abilities to us.

    Even if it's extremely rare for an alien civilazation to thrive, why don't we see anything out of the ordinary in our or in other galaxies? Why don't we see any mega-structures? inter-galactic war? Stars blowing up because of mega-deathstar destroyers? A sign in the skies?

    If not so rare, why do we not even see any Dyson spheres in our galaxy?
    I would say that there should be more than enough time for an alien civilization more advanced than ours to build one and they wouldn't have to travel so far in order to do this.

    When I find articles about this, I find this argument "Humans are so arrogant to think that they're the only ones in the universe" common in believers.
    Isn't this just another version of believing in an invisible sky daddy?
    They also believe they could look like anything, so that could mean hobgoblins, unicorns, fairies, thor, flying spaghetti monsters, celestial teapots... the list would go on and on.

    Oh well... at least we know where to look...beyond our current scope.

    So, if you don't believe in the sky daddy, what about the inner-earth monster?
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  6. #5 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by _sluimers_
    why don't we see anything out of the ordinary in our or in other galaxies? Why don't we see any mega-structures? inter-galactic war? Stars blowing up because of mega-deathstar destroyers? A sign in the skies?
    Young children do not understand that their entire world is built by human adults. It is just "the world" with the occasional preoccupied set of legs walking past.

    So perhaps the problem is we're looking for "out of the ordinary" (yet not too out of the ordinary :wink: ) when we should be taking a fresh look at "ordinary" as if we missed something.

    Why would Godlike beings pull stunts tangible to us in our time and scale? How often does one intercept a baby carriage and make faces into it?
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  7. #6 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver
    So, if you don't believe in the sky daddy, what about the inner-earth monster?
    Unless you can define microorganisms as monsters, no.
    I believe in sea monsters however, although we already know they exist and call them giant and colossal squids.
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  8. #7 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by _sluimers_
    But so far not even our most powerful telescopes can see any evidence of any extraterrestrials, including the Elohim. Unless you believe the fossilized microbe in mars rock is evidence for extra-terrestrial life.

    Our current technology is now good enough to spot hundreds of planets indirectly. Of course, we're not advanced enough to spot a couple of earth-like planets directly outside our solar system, which should immediately make it clear whether they are common or rare, but still, isn't it a bit strange?
    Our telescopes simply aren't good enough - even if every star had earth-like planets around them, we wouldn't expect to see them with our current technology. Keep in mind that we just discovered a new planet that's 2600 km in diameter in our own solar system in 2005. We really have very little idea about what's out there.
    Even if it's extremely rare for an alien civilazation to thrive, why don't we see anything out of the ordinary in our or in other galaxies? Why don't we see any mega-structures? inter-galactic war? Stars blowing up because of mega-deathstar destroyers? A sign in the skies?

    If not so rare, why do we not even see any Dyson spheres in our galaxy?
    I would say that there should be more than enough time for an alien civilization more advanced than ours to build one and they wouldn't have to travel so far in order to do this.
    Again, why would you expect to see any of this even if it's out there? We're still finding objects that are thousands of km in size in our own solar system, and you want to see alien ships??? Dyson spheres would be dark from the outside, so we would probably never spot one with anything like our current technology. Individual spaceships are probably out of the question, unless they were passing very close to our solar system. As for stars being blown up etc, how would you tell the difference between a star that's being blown up by a warship vs. a star that goes nova on its own? We do see stars explode from time to time, after all. And there are plenty of unexplained things that have been observed in space that you could attribute to fantastically advanced aliens if you wanted: http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/sc...l1/bursts.html

    Isn't this just another version of believing in an invisible sky daddy?
    They also believe they could look like anything, so that could mean hobgoblins, unicorns, fairies, thor, flying spaghetti monsters, celestial teapots... the list would go on and on.
    Aliens, unlike hobgoblins etc., do not clash with our current scientific understanding of the universe. We don't have any evidence, but we also wouldn't expect there to be any evidence observable to us with our current technology, except maybe radio signals.
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  9. #8 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Dyson spheres would be dark from the outside, so we would probably never spot one with anything like our current technology.
    I'm not sure you are correct in this. I think they would radiate strongly and characteristically in the infra-red. What do you think?
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  10. #9 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by _sluimers_
    why don't we see anything out of the ordinary in our or in other galaxies? Why don't we see any mega-structures? inter-galactic war? Stars blowing up because of mega-deathstar destroyers? A sign in the skies?
    Young children do not understand that their entire world is built by human adults. It is just "the world" with the occasional preoccupied set of legs walking past.

    So perhaps the problem is we're looking for "out of the ordinary" (yet not too out of the ordinary :wink: ) when we should be taking a fresh look at "ordinary" as if we missed something.

    Why would Godlike beings pull stunts tangible to us in our time and scale? How often does one intercept a baby carriage and make faces into it?
    Not a lot, but how often does a baby see someone else's house? All he/she has to do is take a look outside.
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  11. #10 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    I'm note sure you are correct in this. I think they would radiate strongly and characteristically in the infra-red. What do you think?
    Yes, now that I think about it I believe you are right about that. It would depend on how efficient it was about capturing sunlight and what they did with it. In any case, I'm not at all convinced that we would spot one if it were out there. Heck, we have trouble observing red dwarf stars over long distances - and a dyson sphere would surely be much less luminous than those.
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  12. #11 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by _sluimers_

    Not a lot, but how often does a baby see someone else's house? All he/she has to do is take a look outside.
    A better analogy would be trying to see a house that's 5 miles away at night with a flashlight, when you can't even see everything in your own yard.
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  13. #12 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Dyson spheres would be dark from the outside, so we would probably never spot one with anything like our current technology.
    I'm note sure you are correct in this. I think they would radiate strongly and characteristically in the infra-red. What do you think?
    I think that I haven't put enough thought to it.
    I automatically assumed that a Dyson sphere would be made between the home planet and the star and not be fully closed off, making the other planets far more visible.
    The reason for that would be that the solar collectors would catch more energy per meter that way and the weird assumption that they would still want their planet to be lit .
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  14. #13 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by _sluimers_

    Not a lot, but how often does a baby see someone else's house? All he/she has to do is take a look outside.
    A better analogy would be trying to see a house that's 5 miles away at night with a flashlight, when you can't even see everything in your own yard.
    Good point about distances, but I was referring to scale and time - also "astronomical". Advanced ET isn't likely, imho, to confine itself to our particular pace or magnitude. So other analogies: try to see insects, and gauge just how many are living in your back yard, or, try to see "the city" which is a living thing in its own inhuman frame. I've read we all have microscopic creatures living in our eyelashes; they eat dead matter and don't bother us.

    Some would say the internet is a living thing. I cannot observe the internet, yet at this moment encrypted images of houses from my neighbour's wireless service could be passing through my cranium. And his porn too. *snatches air, blinks*
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  15. #14 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by _sluimers_
    Raëlians believe that all life on Earth, humans included, was created scientifically by human-like extra terrestrials that are more scientifically advanced than us, called the Elohim, using DNA synthesis and genetic engineering and thus believe in intelligent design.
    Admittedly this seems to conflict with the archaeological record. If they created us, they did a bang up job of making it look like we evolved from apes. And they'd have to have created the hominids and neanderthals, etc. It would be an interesting coincidence for them to look like us if they didn't evolve from apes too.

    But so far not even our most powerful telescopes can see any evidence of any extraterrestrials, including the Elohim. Unless you believe the fossilized microbe in mars rock is evidence for extra-terrestrial life.

    Our current technology is now good enough to spot hundreds of planets indirectly. Of course, we're not advanced enough to spot a couple of earth-like planets directly outside our solar system, which should immediately make it clear whether they are common or rare, but still, isn't it a bit strange?
    So far it's really hard to see a planet as small as ours. I think they find them some times, but there's some luck involved. A planet much larger than ours gets to be a gas giant, which is a pretty tough place for life to happen.

    The oldest planet in our galaxy found so far is thought to be 12.7 billion years old.
    Our planet is 4 billion years old.
    Plenty of time for them to get so advanced they would seem to have godlike abilities to us.
    Agreed.

    Even if it's extremely rare for an alien civilazation to thrive, why don't we see anything out of the ordinary in our or in other galaxies? Why don't we see any mega-structures? inter-galactic war? Stars blowing up because of mega-deathstar destroyers? A sign in the skies?
    I don't get the impression that aliens kill one another like we kill one another. To get into space, they have to survive their own nuclear age.

    I'm betting that they simply control their own population so they never need to go fight anyone over land/planets and resources to support their ever- growing number of children.

    And since they're likely immortal, they might not even reproduce.

    If not so rare, why do we not even see any Dyson spheres in our galaxy?
    I would say that there should be more than enough time for an alien civilization more advanced than ours to build one and they wouldn't have to travel so far in order to do this.
    The idea that Dyson spheres are the direction technology really would go is pure speculation. It may be that the next 25 or so break-throughs in science will lead us in a whole other direction.

    When I find articles about this, I find this argument "Humans are so arrogant to think that they're the only ones in the universe" common in believers.
    It would be really hard to believe in evolution if it honestly needed to be a one in a billion chance. I tend to see evolution as much more likely than some people make it out to be.

    Isn't this just another version of believing in an invisible sky daddy?
    They also believe they could look like anything, so that could mean hobgoblins, unicorns, fairies, thor, flying spaghetti monsters, celestial teapots... the list would go on and on.

    Oh well... at least we know where to look...beyond our current scope.
    Yeah, I get tired of sky- daddy's too. I don't really think we need a creator. I believe more in aliens who didn't create us, but find us interesting enough to observe sometimes.

    Them watching us might be kind of like us watching tigers in Africa. You get your best observations if they don't know you're watching them.
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  16. #15 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    I don't get the impression that aliens kill one another like we kill one another. To get into space, they have to survive their own nuclear age.

    I'm betting that they simply control their own population so they never need to go fight anyone over land/planets and resources to support their ever- growing number of children.
    In the other thread I brought up the possibility of predatory civilizations that kill off anyone they come across (even if they don't kill themselves). That could go a long way toward explaining why the galaxy isn't alread full. It would only take one advanced, xenophobic race of killers to depopulate a large chunck of space.
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    Slightly unrelated, but the Raelian faith is centered in Quebec, the only place in the world where it is recognized as a religion . They have a compound called UFO land where they have group orgies, quite an interesting group of people.

    My high school had a Raelian group home accross the street from it, and they once put up a large poster of them having sex, the school of course called the police immediately but it was pretty entertaining while it lasted .
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    I'm pretty sure a dyson sphere could be detected due to the gravitational lens effect.

    As for the rest, who's to say intelligent life flourishes at the same time? We have only been aware of radio signals less than 2 centuries now, and we are teetering on the edge of self-destruction. The occurrence of life is probably rare (proportionately to the amount of stars in a galaxy) as it is, much less intelligent life who manages not to destroy themselves in short order.
    "It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." - Mark Twain
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  19. #18  
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    So, how do these proportions sound:

    Any kind of life appears rarely.

    When it does appear, it generally evolves into sentient life, within a few billion years.

    At which point it usually annihilates itself.

    The occasional civilization that doesn't kill itself expands and evolves at a fantastic rate, and rises beyond our planet-bound frames of reference (distance, scale, time). For this reason we don't see it. Or it isn't operating where/how we'd expect it, so perhaps we do see it everywhere and think nothing about that.

    That's my "spaceships free" recipe.
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  20. #19 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    At some level of evolution I guess they become gods. Sooner or later they'd have to deserve that title. I wonder if there might be some benevolent ones trying to help us survive the mess we're in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    I don't get the impression that aliens kill one another like we kill one another. To get into space, they have to survive their own nuclear age.

    I'm betting that they simply control their own population so they never need to go fight anyone over land/planets and resources to support their ever- growing number of children.
    In the other thread I brought up the possibility of predatory civilizations that kill off anyone they come across (even if they don't kill themselves). That could go a long way toward explaining why the galaxy isn't alread full. It would only take one advanced, xenophobic race of killers to depopulate a large chunck of space.
    Yeah, until two of them run into each other and trigger MADD. Then it's just a large scale version of what we have right now here on Earth.

    My thinking/hope is that, if a species ever made it past that point, they'd institute some kind of inter-galactic order to prevent the xenophobes from ever making it onto the galactic scene. Given that we're pretty terrible xenophobes here on Earth, that may not bode well for us...
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  21. #20  
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    Some moral qualms about devouring everything in our path, and blasting to fertility that we can't devour? Why in this context? I'm not being sarcastic.
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  22. #21 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Yeah, until two of them run into each other and trigger MADD. Then it's just a large scale version of what we have right now here on Earth.
    Most likely the first one to discover the other would win by default. There's not really anything you can do about it if someone sends a few tons of quartz at your planet at 99% the speed of light. Whoever finds the other first is the winner.
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  23. #22 Re: Extraterrestrials, a celestial teapot? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by _sluimers_
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by _sluimers_
    why don't we see anything out of the ordinary in our or in other galaxies? Why don't we see any mega-structures? inter-galactic war? Stars blowing up because of mega-deathstar destroyers? A sign in the skies?
    Young children do not understand that their entire world is built by human adults. It is just "the world" with the occasional preoccupied set of legs walking past.

    So perhaps the problem is we're looking for "out of the ordinary" (yet not too out of the ordinary :wink: ) when we should be taking a fresh look at "ordinary" as if we missed something.

    Why would Godlike beings pull stunts tangible to us in our time and scale? How often does one intercept a baby carriage and make faces into it?
    Not a lot, but how often does a baby see someone else's house? All he/she has to do is take a look outside.
    How often does the baby realize it's looking at someone else's house? If you can't comprehend what you are looking at, is it really there? That was proposed awhile back why Columbus was able to do what he did, was that the people there could not contemplate ships of that size, so they couldn't really "see" them. If we don't know what we're looking for or at, who is to say we have or have not seen it?
    "I prefer to think of the BBT as the TV show, because let's face it, that girl is hot!"
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNatendo
    I'm pretty sure a dyson sphere could be detected due to the gravitational lens effect.
    Maybe, but is anyone looking for that sort of thing? And even if someone spotted it, would they just assume it was a black hole or something? Again, I'll point out that since we're still discovering entire planets that are thousands of km in diameter in our own solar system, it seems pretty unreasonable to demand that we spot interesting alien stuff that is lightyears away.

    The occurrence of life is probably rare (proportionately to the amount of stars in a galaxy) as it is, much less intelligent life who manages not to destroy themselves in short order.
    Again, what is the basis for this? We currently have no information about how common life is or how likely it is to become intelligent. Based on our current sample size of one, 100% of the observed star systems have intelligent life. There might be intelligent life around every other star in our neighborhood - but we wouldn't even be able to see their planets, much less evidence of their civilization. Heck, we don't even know whether or not there is life on Europa, which is in our own solar system - no one has bothered to look.
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