February 19th, 2008, 07:07 PM
Forgive me if this has been discussed. I have recently heard of our nation's interest in harvesting Helium 3 from the moon in order to fuel our television sets.
Could mining on the moon (digging out about a quarter mile of regolith) affect its orbit, the Earth's tides, or anything else we may need more than, oh, say -- American Idol?
Intelligent and/or sarcastic responses only, please. :wink:
Its doubtful mining would have any major impact unless it got way out of hand. Films like 'time machine' show the moon breaking up from excessive mining but its not very likely unless we were able to mine and tranfer mass on the scale that we extract oil and coal for a lengthy time, and there isnt material on the moon that is worth the cost or effort of mining at that scale. Anything less than that or the example you described would not have an effect on the moons orbit or tidal forces.
You mean America by our nation right?
Well, I think by the time it'd be convenient to mine the moon molecular machines will make it a needless task.
This is a hot topic - Bush wants to mine the moon.
I read that He3 is only in the regolith, and regolith is only in the crust, right? And digging for a quarter mile on the moon will power Texas for a year.......
A few quick calculations (correct me if I'm wrong) - we could take all the He3 from the moon, power Texas for 60 years and then we'll be right back where we started, right? What a HUGE waste of time, money, brainpower, and other resources.
Am I wandering into the Environment forum? :-)
Sorry, I forgot that not everyone is an American. How very American of me.Originally Posted by Cuntinuum
But we all speak English right??
um... how big do you think the moon is?
15 cubic miles?
I think you might be a "Few orders of magnitude" low on your estimate.
Helium 3 is for nuclear fusion.
Nuclear fusion creates 18 million or so times the energy of a similar mass of fossil fuel. So 1 ton of helium 3 = 18 million tonnes of coal. So if you say the entire lunar crust (hundreds of trillions of tonnes...) you do the math.
It's pointless to mine the crust without having a working fusion power station.
Perhaps even more importantly, fusing helium 3 requires much higher temperatures than fusing deuterium and tritium, which you can get for free in unlimited quantities from sea water.
So why not use them, then, instead of He3?
Most people do plan to use them, which is why most serious fusion research is being done with deuterium and tritium instead of He3.
The main advantage of He3 is that it doesn't give off neutrons when it fuses, which potentially makes it easier to capture energy from the fusion reaction. It's easy to cause fusion, but it takes a lot of energy to start and maintain a fusion reaction, so trying to produce energy from fusion is all about trying to get more energy out than you expend maintaining/starting the reaction. D/T fusion produces neutrons, and a large chunk of the energy released by the fusion goes into the neutrons as kinetic energy. That energy is pretty hard to capture, because no one (so far as I know) has any good ideas about how to extract energy from fast-moving neutrons. It also means you have to have a lot of radiation shielding around your reactor, because neutron radiation is bad.
Since He3 doesn't "waste" energy accelerating neutron, it's theoretically easier to capture a larger percentage of the energy released. The problem is that in order to start the reaction in the first place you need much higher temperatures, so your reactor is much more technically difficult to construct.
The end result of all this is that a He3 reactor would probably be more efficient than a D/T reactor in terms of energy produced/mass of fuel used. But since you can get D and T for free from see water, it seems unlikely that anyone will want to develop a reactor that can only be fueled with stuff from the moon.
The UK are planning to dispatch a probe to the moon for research with support from America, who apparently want to fire missiles at the moon and see if there is any water beneath the craters
Here's the bit about the UK plans
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7143197.stm
I am desperately trying to find the article about NASA's plans to launch missiles into it, i read it on MSN homepage about two days ago, if anyone finds anything will you post it up please.
I think it's disgraceful, i mean how friggin dare they!?!!
It's not their moon to do what the hell they like with!
I believe everything in nature is fine tuned, especially the moon, and our planet and it's creatures depends on it in lots of ways and so does half the human population (women!)
They could put that money to better uses with more research and improvements on this piece of rock and soil we all walk on.
It's a blessing that mankind can't go as far as it'd like into space, God only knows what else these governments and their mad scientists would fuck up if they could get their hand on anything else out there.
We should protest very strongly about this!
It's an easy way to see if there is much water in the lunar soil.
Whaaaa? If you have an explanation for how kicking some dust up on the moon could harm anyone - or, heck, effect anyone or anything on the earth in any way - I would be fascinated to hear it.It's not their moon to do what the hell they like with!
I believe everything in nature is fine tuned, especially the moon, and our planet and it's creatures depends on it in lots of ways and so does half the human population (women!)
Maybe - but that could be said of most of the things people spend money on. I would much rather see the government spending money on science research like this than on more expensive weapons, or corporate welfare.They could put that money to better uses with more research and improvements on this piece of rock and soil we all walk on.
Again, what exactly is the problem here? It's not like this is going to leave some sort of huge hideous scar on the moon or something. It's just going to kick up some dust, which will settle back down. There might be a small crater. I don't know if you've noticed, but the moon is COVERED in craters. It gets hit by asteroids all the time, and with no atmosphere to protect it surface the asteroids always hit pretty hard and leave craters. We won't be doing anything to the moon that doesn't happen naturally all the time anyway. Except, of course, that this time we will have scientific instruments in place to analyze the dust as it settles.It's a blessing that mankind can't go as far as it'd like into space, God only knows what else these governments and their mad scientists would fuck up if they could get their hand on anything else out there.
We should protest very strongly about this!
Kicking some dust up?!
Ok Scifor Refugee, mr bladdy expert.
So why don't they just look inside the pock holes and craters already there?
It's such people like you and these barmy scientists with your nut-job ideas making such a mess of the world and now you want to fuck up the moon.
It's not your moon or theirs, it's everybody's and everythings hereditary!
There's a nice smiling angelic face on it at the moment and it doesn't need any more additions, so keep your grubby interfering hands off and go and do something useful, like cure cancer and other such ills, raise the fish stocks, discover renewable energy or save the whale and the snow leopard etc etc etc...........leave MY moon alone!
Mining/colonising/exploiting the Moon is something I find really interesting. I'm keen to see what can really be done with Moon regolith.
Although not completely related to your question re:He3, you may find these sites interesting read as to what is theoretically possible with moon regolith and suchlike, as He3 is one of many useful materials:
Artemis Colony project: http://www.asi.org/index2.html
NASA Regolith Challenge: http://regolith.csewi.org/files/Regolith.pdf
Regolith composition: http://www.moonminer.com/Lunar_regolith.html
I can't tell if you're a troll, a nut, or just very stupid. In any case, I think we're done here.
May I add some wood to the fire?
Selene, what you gonna do? Your protest will change nothing, your stupidety won't shield you either, the goverment will overpower you also if you would be in right state. So, peaseyou.
---
He3, I can't see any use for it in near future, maybe in a few decades as a power source on the moon, for launching/landing of spacecrafts. Insterresting would be predictiong a more precise date of when this might happen.
regards,
Mark
Mark - learn to spell, learn to write, learn to think and....May I add some wood to the fire?
Selene, what you gonna do? Your protest will change nothing, your stupidety won't shield you either, the goverment will overpower you also if you would be in right state. So, peaseyou.
---
He3, I can't see any use for it in near future, maybe in a few decades as a power source on the moon, for launching/landing of spacecrafts. Insterresting would be predictiong a more precise date of when this might happen.
regards,
Mark
Off
Regards
Selene x
I don't see anything wrong with firing missiles at the moon? Just some other craters in it, only thing different about it is we made the craters. If we didn't do it nature would've done it somewhere else eventually, with an asteroid instead.
Correct. Artificial craters wouldn't make a difference, if we can throw nuclear bombs on earth, a missile on the moon would more or less be like a fart (a pretty loud one though) compared to the massive attack of asteroids over the last few billion years.
allright selene, explain yourself
what's wrong with misseling the moon, at all? what do you think is gonna happen
I'd just like to point out... How can Bush be planning to mine the moon? He doesn't have a spaceship, he will be out of office by the time the next manned mission is planned, he doesn't have the power to commit our nation (I do happen to be american) to such a mission.
American citizens have a tendency to Over-Credit and Over-blame the president for things he has no control over! Read the constitution, it tells you the powers of government.
And, we would be powering much more than our television sets, Any ideas as to how to generate more power from space would be a great help to our planet, not a detriment. I doubt such mining would change the orbit of the moon or change our planet's tides. If it does become a worry we could always replace the weight of such materials with materials from the earth.
Personally I think we would have found better ways to cultivate energy from space by then...
You people are as bad as those sorts that sell of chunks of the moon to idiots that will pay money for small plots.
well i just dont really understand your concern. you could probably turn the whole thing into a test site for 200 megaton bombs for all it matters and still not be able to tell the difference from earth or even a different spot on the moon
you forget the moons half the size of mars, thats not small by any means
And you're as bad as the anti-nuclear power nuts who protest the construction of a new nuclear power plant even though they don't know how a nuclear power plant works. You're sure that making a crater a few tens of meters across that no one will even be able to see from Earth is a bad thing, but you can't actually explain why - you just keep repeating that it's bad over and over again, as if that was a logical argument. Why don't you try explaining why you think it's a bad idea? Do you even have a reason?
And you think you have the absolute right to now extend the degenerate hand of mankind onto the moon having fucked with and fucked up planet earth?And you're as bad as the anti-nuclear power nuts who protest the construction of a new nuclear power plant even though they don't know how a nuclear power plant works. You're sure that making a crater a few tens of meters across that no one will even be able to see from Earth is a bad thing, but you can't actually explain why - you just keep repeating that it's bad over and over again, as if that was a logical argument. Why don't you try explaining why you think it's a bad idea? Do you even have a reason?
Where will the filth and madness in the name of exploration and experiments end?
Isn't it time amendments were made and the errors were fixed on this sodding ball?
No never mind that, there is research to be done and funding money to be spent.
Would money not be better spent on discovering new sources of water on this planet and clean wells for the masses that have to drink their own shit?
Or how about cleaning up the filth in the sea that man has pumped into it for generations in the name of energy and research?
No, it is far more important to satisfy the intrigue of scientists with their PHD's and the governments who rub their hands together with glee at the prospects of further exploitation and the feeling of omnipotent power which goes with it.
I'm sure during this procedure of firing missiles at the moon more clutter will be added to the junk already revolving the earth in the name of research and science, but no matter, that must be the price we pay for our endeavors of advancement
Excuse me while i piss myself laughing and weep at the irony, whilst these 'researchers' and exploiters talk of 'the advance of mankind' when i switch on my telly or read reports and learn that there are still millions of people who still live in slums and don't even have the basic essentials to life.
You behave like diseased parasites with no conscience in your arrogant endeavors.
You call it 'exploration' when in fact all it is is exploitation.
Looks like we have ourselves a bonnified human-hater here!
Yes having compassion and empathy for the unfortunate souls on our planet who are forced to drink shit, eat dirt and live within scraps of cardboard means i am a human-hater of course.
Looks like we have an ignoramus narrow minded selfish ignorant cretin here!
Damn right.No, it is far more important to satisfy the intrigue of scientists
What I have understood out of your text: You dislike the idea of planning a bombing on the moon,
1. because you are scared it will disrupt certain things on earth and
2. that the used money can be invested in other things...
1. is not true.
2. ofcourse it can be invested in other things, but why aren't you in africa? Why are you not saving up to help find clean water? You don't. Your lifesyle is not comparable with the blame you give.
Oh dear, i ask myself, why i bother!
Firstly i am not scared of it 'disrupting certain things on our planet'
Yes, the money could be invested into better things, (if i could be arsed i could compile a list of thousands of 'better' things, but i'm sure you have enough brain cells to come up with a few)
1. is not true? Well hello, durr i think i know that, what annoys me is the presumptuous arrogance that humans think they have the right to fuck the planet up, yet they have and they do fuck all about it.
Instead they would rather extend their fucked up-ness to fucking up yet more of the universe they have NO right to touch. (yes i hate these arrogant selfish humans that appear to constitute a certain proportion of this race)
and.....
2. How the fuck do you know what i am doing???? Are you a psychic or what?
How do you know what i am doing with my time or money or whether i am doing anything worthwhile to help people in Africa?
Of course you don't, you insolent little boy!
Are you doing anything worthwhile?
Of course not, because you hadn't even considered these options or possibilities until i pointed them out to your narrow little mind.
You are yet another selfish gormless dweeb jumping on the research bandwagon because the idea of blasting the moon with rockets gives you a hard on!
Well grow up and get real!
Well humanity was going to get to the moon eventually I figure, and when we do I don't think pollution will be a worry. But that's really thinking into the future, the issue at hand right now is the missile being shot at the moon, which will make a crater in it. I have no objections to that.
As for polluting the moon I'm guessing if we can travel back and forth the wastes will be dumped into space rather than on the moon. Also that'd probably benefit earth some.
Umm, Correct me if i am wrong, but hasn't nearly all forms of science benefited from space exploration? That cure for cancer you say could be found without space exploration...how can you be sure? I'm pretty sure much of our medical equipment has benefitted from space exploration. Who is to say a cure can't be discovered as a result of knowledge gleaned from space exploration?
Renewable energy is also something that has benefited IMMENSELY from the space programs!
You are erroneously blaming space exploration and its supporters for all of the bad stuff that happens on the planet and not crediting them where credit is due.
We should never lose our desire to explore, and if mining He3 from the moon helps us get to a point where we can explore further away from the ankle deep shores of the cosmos we currently wade in, possibly finding alternative energy sources in the future, we should jump at the opportunity.
Sure, knowledge can be used as a means to destroy, but it can also be used to improve conditions for the planet and mankind.
The moon has a surface area of about 38 million square km - bigger than the entire continent of North America. This project will make a crater a few tens of meters across and a few meters deep - on a surface that is already covered with craters as far as the eye can see. Do you really think that this will "fuck up" the moon? You are getting all worked up over nothing.
Who and how many, might I ask, make up this proportion of our race in your opinion? It is starting to appear you have a twinge of racism, therefore, I am curios as to who you think this certain proportion of the human race you claim is bent on ruining everything consists of.
hmm... troll the trollWho and how many, might I ask, make up this proportion of our race in your opinion? It is starting to appear you have a twinge of racism, therefore, I am curios as to who you think this certain proportion of the human race you claim is bent on ruining everything consists of.
i like it
science: The goal of science is the gain of knowledge, disregarding if good or bad. Gasoline will be used to burn down your house with your kids sleeping in it, but it also fuels your car and enables our multicultural -gobalized world.
You all talk shit because you don't seem to have a clue about life
I'm guessing you're all under 16?
That's how you come across.
My racism only extends to thick ignorant people who can't be bothered to think, or are so selfish and wrapped up in themselves they don't give a damn about anything or anyone else except their neurotic obsessions.
The only useful thing they seem to be able to do is stick the pages of a trashy sci-fi comic together.
Go and concentrate on getting a good education and come back when your cocks have grown another few inches
Guys, I think it's pretty clear at this point that Selene is either
1) A troll who is deliberately saying stupid gibberish in an attempt to get people riled up, or
2) A complete idiot who is unable to back anything she says with actual rational arguments.
In either case, I think it's time we started ignoring her.
Oh sciffle refugee you are so hormoniously touchy.
I bet you sulk something chronic when your mum tells you it's bed time!
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