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  1. #1 predetermination 
    Moderator Moderator AlexP's Avatar
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    What are everyone's thoughts on the idea of everything being predetermined from the moment of the big bang? I'm getting the idea from a post that I saw in this forum a long time ago. When I say everything, I mean everything...formation of galaxies, planets, etc., down to the very thoughts we think, what happens in our lives, everything.


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  3. #2  
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    Chemboy, I'm not sure that this shouldn't be in the Philosophy section. We'll see how it develops, but if I am preordained to move it there, then I shall. :wink:


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    One problem Big Bang proponents have is fitting everything into a 15 billion year time line. To do this things would have happened rather fast, which is one point I argue to that theory.

    As for much of your *recall*, it probably comes from some creationist explanation. Science, to my knowledge does NOT try to link our existence or for that matter any particular aspect of a *Universe*origin...
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Chemboy, I'm not sure that this shouldn't be in the Philosophy section. We'll see how it develops, but if I am preordained to move it there, then I shall. :wink:
    Ok, I'd understand that move. I wasn't quite sure where to put it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    One problem Big Bang proponents have is fitting everything into a 15 billion year time line. To do this things would have happened rather fast, which is one point I argue to that theory.

    As for much of your *recall*, it probably comes from some creationist explanation. Science, to my knowledge does NOT try to link our existence or for that matter any particular aspect of a *Universe*origin...
    From the way it was put, I'm quite sure it wasn't a creationist argument. Not sure how to explain it though.

    Oh, and by the way everyone, I do not believe that everything is predetermined from the big bang, I'm just curious about others' thoughts.
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    If it is a pre-determinate event, does that mean we lose any possibility of freedom of change?

    Also, if the big-bang is predetermining, what happens to the tenth dimension? Does the BB become the tenth dimension? Or is the tenth dimension made void by the predetermination caused by the BB?
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    Tenth dimension = chaos? If yes, then the universe cannot be predetermined, since the random events at the quantum level means near infinite possibilities. If on the other hand no such thing as true chaos exists, then I would say that the universe and everything in it is predetermined. Although predetermined is maybe the wrong word since, as Ophiolite noted, it implies that someone determined how everything would play out.
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    We shouldn't place to much faith in chaos theory ensuring free will remains intact. Chaos theory does not state that events are not predetermined, it merely states that they are unpredictable. Those are quite different restrictions.
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    Chaos theory does not state that events are not predetermined
    Ah! Then everything that happened and will happen could not happen any other way? So when a situation can conceivably (to us) go either way, it will always go only one way, governed by the laws of physics? Kind of kills the notion of free will then?
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Chaos theory does not state that events are not predetermined
    Ah! Then everything that happened and will happen could not happen any other way? So when a situation can conceivably (to us) go either way, it will always go only one way, governed by the laws of physics? Kind of kills the notion of free will then?
    Not necessarily. I was just pointing out that Chaos theory does not provide a basis on which to posit free will. However there might be something in Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle that gives us the manouvering space that free will requires. (I felt I just had to say that. :wink: )
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    I'm kinda reminded about what Dr. Barrow wrote, saying, and this is a very loose paraphrase, when the mind cannot grasp a thought that is so big, it immediately assumes that it is there because of a plan.

    now, how does this relate to the question...well, it kinda doesn't, but i was reminded of it. I would assume with this question, the plan would be "God". I don't know, very interesting question.

    Well, to be honest, my mind isn't big enough (sorry guys ) to truly see the infinite possibilites, so my mind automatically wonders towards the idea that everything was predetermined. However, then training and years of poor college study techniques kick in, and i wounder how something as big as "our" universe could be predetermined, that it must be the way it is because of mere happenstance.


    Confusing enough??? sorry, i just spent the last 8 hours trying to fix my truck...
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Chaos theory does not state that events are not predetermined
    Ah! Then everything that happened and will happen could not happen any other way? So when a situation can conceivably (to us) go either way, it will always go only one way, governed by the laws of physics? Kind of kills the notion of free will then?
    Not really. When you consider that there are an infinite number of initial pathways, things are only narrowed once a path has been chosen. So before the event there could be free will, but after, probably not. It's difficult to change the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by zizzy34
    ...and i wounder how something as big as "our" universe could be predetermined, that it must be the way it is because of mere happenstance.
    If you're assuming size is relevant to that....
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    Not necessarily. I was just pointing out that Chaos theory does not provide a basis on which to posit free will. However there might be something in Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle that gives us the manouvering space that free will requires
    So chaos theory and Heisenberg uncertainty are unrelated? This is getting very interesting. If such a thing as free will existed, that would mean that in some way we can "steer" uncertainty or chaos?
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    Free-will is the illusion that you can make something new occur by your choices, when in fact those occurrences already existed as part of the infinite possibilities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    So chaos theory and Heisenberg uncertainty are unrelated? This is getting very interesting. If such a thing as free will existed, that would mean that in some way we can "steer" uncertainty or chaos?
    Kalster, I am right at (probably beyond) the limit of my knowledge here. My understanding is that chaos theory deals with conventional, let me call it Newtonian, mechanics. It notes that very small changes in initial conditions can lead to dramatically different outcomes. The conventional metaphor for this is a butterfly flapping its wings in the Amazon leads, two months later, to a hurricane in the Caribbean.
    Heisenberg notes that their is a limit to the accuracy with which the position and velocity of a particle can be known.
    The outcome of that butterfly's action is entirely mechanistic and dependent merely on the intial conditions. The uncertainty (with a small 'u') is due to our lack of knowledge of what those initial conditions are.
    With Heisenberg there is this amorphous Uncertainty that is in a sense a real, tangible unknown. I am describing in words what really ought to be in mathematics, but I did say I was outside my comfort zone!
    I could develop this further, but I am feeling somewhat uncertain myself. :wink:
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    Thanks, it's all coming back to me now. So Heisenberg uncertainty is only random to us? I mean, it is only random because we cannot learn enough of the initial conditions to make very accurate predictions? That means that in an absolute sense (independent of our perception), all eventualities are still predetermined? Wolf, you said infinite possibilities. Is it fully infinite or just inconceivably large?
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    I thought the uncertainity principle had more to do with that when you measure the position of a particle you're limiting the velocity because you have to virtually halt the velocity of the particle to make an accurate measurement of its position?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flip McWho
    I thought the uncertainity principle had more to do with that when you measure the position of a particle you're limiting the velocity because you have to virtually halt the velocity of the particle to make an accurate measurement of its position?
    Kinda.

    It's more that you can't actually truly describe a particle because when you get down to the fine grain, your methods of observation can have an effect on that particle. It's kinda like trying to figure out which direction a ship is going by pushing on it with a tug-boat...
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    That whole a particle is not really a full stop point in space type thing?
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  20. #19  
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    I'm inclined to think predetermination is real, but it seems like every time I say that I'm encouraged to read some of Hawking's books (which I'm ashamed to admit I haven't done yet). I guess I only believe this because I follow that sort of Einsteinian thought that says God does not play dice. I think everything can be calculated, whether or not we're able to do it. To think otherwise would be like believing in magic from my perspective.

    There was a quote I heard once on this before too. I can't remember who said it and I'm paraphrasing here but it went something along the lines of "Either everything in our universe is ordered or everything is random. Either way, free will cannot exist."
    "If I keep an open mind people will throw garbage in it. I don't keep an open mind, I keep an active mind." - Ayn Rand.
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    Ok, so it's more in line with by observing a particle it makes it snap into a particular existential state?

    I'm thinking specifically of the cat and particle in the box thought experiment here.

    Or is the problem more concerned with the inaccuracy of the observational equipment we use on such a small scale?
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    I suppose you could think of it as being similar to dealing with the effects of the "margin of error."

    Basically, that little +/- bit of inaccuracy can become a big deal.

    Kinda like shooting a rifle that you know is off by an inch at twenty yards. It's only an inch, and yer not likely to miss the whole deer over an inch. But if you're shooting at a deer a mile away, that inch suddenly becomes a big problem.
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    connection...
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    not...
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    working...
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    After watching a doco' called "What the bleep" (love it) i was astounded to learn that on a quantam level, an atom can be in 2 places at he same time, except when it is observed it is always in one place.
    I wonder then, if on a grand scale that before man, the universe was everywhere and all in the same spot at the same time. Once man started to "observe" the universe around him, the universe had to find a place for everything and thats why it is constantly expanding and ever faster as we explore it further.
    Could our observation of the universe, be the very thing that makes it so big and ever expanding? Was it the very first thought of man to observe his surroundings that caused the Big Bang? , :l
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    Ooops, sorry about the multiple posts, every time i pressed "submit" my connection would lock up. Or so i thought.
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  30. #29 Re: predetermination 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemboy
    What are everyone's thoughts on the idea of everything being predetermined from the moment of the big bang? I'm getting the idea from a post that I saw in this forum a long time ago. When I say everything, I mean everything...formation of galaxies, planets, etc., down to the very thoughts we think, what happens in our lives, everything.
    that's trippy....makes me feels like on drugs or something.........
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrowlingDog
    I wonder then, if on a grand scale that before man, the universe was everywhere and all in the same spot at the same time.
    Welcome to the tenth dimension.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrowlingDog
    Once man started to "observe" the universe around him, the universe had to find a place for everything and thats why it is constantly expanding and ever faster as we explore it further.
    Could our observation of the universe, be the very thing that makes it so big and ever expanding? Was it the very first thought of man to observe his surroundings that caused the Big Bang? , :l
    Interesting viewpoint.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf
    Quote Originally Posted by GrowlingDog
    I wonder then, if on a grand scale that before man, the universe was everywhere and all in the same spot at the same time.
    Welcome to the tenth dimension.
    O'k i'm very naive here but what are the ten dimensions. I remember seeing on a Star Trek episode (the Nth degree) a guy was talking with Einstein about the possibility of there being 26 dimensions instead of ten. And then, like now, i was wondering what are the ten dimensions.
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    The uncertainty principal isn't due to inaccuracies, it is a derivation which states that the laws of physics break down. What it basically implies is that literally anything can happen, you cannot calculate or predict anything below this uncertainty, it is fundamentally impossible.

    For example, the plank time of the big bang. We can calculate using just equations of physics, fairly accurately what happened to the universe after a certain plank time of the big bang. It predicts background radiation for example, which, well you know, exists and that. It can predict the cosmic radiation fluctuences measured by COBE. However the laws just don't hold before this time because it is fundamentally impossible to know what happened before this time (google it :P).

    In addition to this if one is to believe Quantum Theory (which you may well do seeing as how it works and all) then everything exists everywhere until it is observed not to at which point its wave function collapses to a finite function. This could suggest that (as previously stated) that our possibilities for choice is a wavefunction in which every possible outcome is possible with a certain probability. The case is "quantumly" [love making up words] that every choice is already in existance until the choice is observed (or in this case is made).
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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrowlingDog
    O'k i'm very naive here but what are the ten dimensions. I remember seeing on a Star Trek episode (the Nth degree) a guy was talking with Einstein about the possibility of there being 26 dimensions instead of ten. And then, like now, i was wondering what are the ten dimensions.
    Excluding the, uh, "science" of Star-Trek...heh heh...

    Here, this will help: TenthDimension
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf
    Quote Originally Posted by GrowlingDog
    O'k i'm very naive here but what are the ten dimensions. I remember seeing on a Star Trek episode (the Nth degree) a guy was talking with Einstein about the possibility of there being 26 dimensions instead of ten. And then, like now, i was wondering what are the ten dimensions.
    Excluding the, uh, "science" of Star-Trek...heh heh...

    Here, this will help: TenthDimension
    Thanks, great link, although my head is a little sore from trying to fully grasp it. It feels a bit like the Rabbit Hole in "What the Bleep" the further you go down, the wilder it gets. I'm still trying to get my head around the 2 things being in infinite places at once until we observe it, then it becomes fixed in 1 place. Add this to theories on "time" and it leaves the door open for some wild and crazy theories on the origins of the universe, life and man. Well, at least in my imaginations anyway.
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    It's a difficult thing to put to paper, so for that I admire the folks who made that flash presentation.

    As for getting it, it's not something that just clicks immediately, so sometimes you have re-explore the concept again and again until the light shines in. Working outside the 4 well-known dimensions is something that starts to require you to think in ways you're not used to.
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    If everything is predertimined then it doesnt really matter does it? You still have the illusion of free will. You dont 'feel' predertimined. The only way you would notice is if you could see your future and then go back and force yourself to change it. Which is impossible therefor its the question itself that creates the problem. You might think you have a choice, but your choice was always going to be the one you pick, even if you can play the event over and over. You never know what your choice was going to be until you have made it so you cant say you have no free will. You ARE making a choice. Its just you will always have made that choice. This theory has its own problems.
    If you fed the exact condition of the universe into a large enough computer then it could calcultate every condition, past and future, of the universe through out all of its existence. Personally, i dont have a damn clue. I just like to ponder. I havent 'chosen' to beleive in pre-determination or not yet. :P
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    There's also the possibility that the choices we make individually aren't really valid to the whole. We only assume that our lives and our choices are meaningful because we view ourselves with a certain level of importance in the grand scheme of things. However, it could very well be that we're nothing more than irrelevant "junk" and that while there is a predetermined plan, our existence and lives doesn't factor into it in any sort of effectual way.
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    So according to that 10th dimension slide..

    We are currently on a straight path from what was our actual universe beginnings to what will be our future universe ending. and unless we somehow manage to manipulate any of the dminsions 5- 9 (we cant?), then wouldnt this mean everything is predetermined, we just dont know what its determined for?
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