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Thread: the information paradox.

  1. #1 the information paradox. 
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    Stephen Hawking recently came up with a solution to his infamous Information Paradox that considers the concept that the universe we live in may only be one of an infinite number of parallel universes, each with its own laws of physics. In some, black holes existed. In others, it did not. In effect, Hawking claims, the universes with black holes cancel out with those without them. This made the information paradox dissapear because, ultimately, no black hole means no problem in the first place. Now, call me old fashioned, but that makes absolutely no sense to me. It seems as if Hawking is going from one crazy idea to another. My confusion is threefold.

    1. Basically Hawking is saying that black holes both exist and don't exist at the same time. Even for the baffeling world of physics, that sounds absolutely rediculous.

    2. If black holes are cancelling out under this theory, why aren't other things? Matter and antimatter supposedly cancel out, but they're in the same universe. Suppose there were a universe where matter did not exist, just energy. Why isn't that universe cancelling out with the matter of our universe, causing matter to dissappear?

    3. If black holes ultimately disappear under this theory, why is it that we still have them? If they disappear in theory, shouldn't they disappear in practice as well, otherwise it's not scientifically valid?

    Can someone PLEASE help me out here!


    "The only two constants in the universe are the speed of light and human stupidity." - Albert Einstein.
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  3. #2  
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    Well, #3 is easy to answer. They probably last a while before they disappear. So, the ones we're seeing will someday disappear. The ones that have disappeared already........ well........ we haven't seen them.

    My take on it all is that Hawking is frustrated by their very existence, and trying as hard as he can to explain them, but finding that they seem to contradict everything else he believes (or maybe even everything we all believe) about the universe.


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Well, #3 is easy to answer. They probably last a while before they disappear. So, the ones we're seeing will someday disappear. The ones that have disappeared already........ well........ we haven't seen them.

    My take on it all is that Hawking is frustrated by their very existence, and trying as hard as he can to explain them, but finding that they seem to contradict everything else he believes (or maybe even everything we all believe) about the universe.
    So are you saying that the "cancelling out" that Hawking suggests takes place over millions of earth years, and we see it merely as evaporation?

    But that just takes us back to the drawing board. It was the evaporations that posed the information paradox in the first place. The Black Hole Cancellation Theory (I invented that title myself) doesn't solve the problem of what happens to all the matter and energy that gets sucked into a black hole during its lifetime.

    Btw, is there a general term that encompasses both matter and energy into one concept, sort of like space and time with spacetime?
    "The only two constants in the universe are the speed of light and human stupidity." - Albert Einstein.
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  5. #4  
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    I guess I got the impression that Hawking meant that the black holes slowly move into another dimension. So, their observable mass diminishes because it's leaving our dimension? But, this would mean that mass from other dimesions' black holes would be entering our dimension too, no?

    I'm sure Hawking knows what he means. I'm pretty sure I don't, or at least that I'm not quite getting it.
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  6. #5 black hole disappearence 
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    I have proposed a new gravity theory a while back that explains many odd things that seem to go on in the universe and black holes are just another one. Imagine that the terms time and space are in fact two descriptions, actions, of a misunderstood process of matter decaying via the gravitational wave into space and the gravitational wave is a non-binding monopole which like other sources of radiation has constructive and destructive interference patterns but since it encompasses space itself it aligns matter as it evaporates into space through constructive interference which I have termed "Gravitational wave synchronization". Black holes are then just super condensed matter which is decaying creating space. Since In my threoy all matter is broken down to one substance with opposing two opposing forces then matter is actually trying to reform under this strong synchronization and falling back min at and before the event horizion except some forms of radiation can be given off by matter reforming and breaking down at the event horizion.

    So a black hole eventually decays into space itself because space is the lowest form of kenetic-sized matter. Just my opinion, but it does take the magic out of ALL of the mysteries of space.
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  7. #6  
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    So, Dr. Turner, are you suggesting that gravity is an energy wave?

    I take it from your username that you're a physics professor. Perhaps you could gain a claim to fame by actually writing and publishing a paper on this. Somewhere down the line, someone prestigious like Hawking is bound to see it.

    Also, in this paper, you may have to explain your mathematical reasoning. But hey, I've never written a scientific paper, so how should I know?
    "The only two constants in the universe are the speed of light and human stupidity." - Albert Einstein.
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  8. #7 Not a physics professor 
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidstebbins
    So, Dr. Turner, are you suggesting that gravity is an energy wave?

    I take it from your username that you're a physics professor. Perhaps you could gain a claim to fame by actually writing and publishing a paper on this. Somewhere down the line, someone prestigious like Hawking is bound to see it.

    Also, in this paper, you may have to explain your mathematical reasoning. But hey, I've never written a scientific paper, so how should I know?
    I am not a physics professor. I do study a lot on my own and I also have no desire for fame. Have you ever shared something because it was good? Just for the sake of sharing? I am a loner with respect to physics but I am great at seeing the link between what appears to be disjointed facts. To me it is so obvious that I should not have found it but read it. A lot of people seem to get mad or discount me entirely but it no longer matters because I have been my best devil's advocate. Counter arguments help me sometimes fill in the blanks too. If I could give five reasons why I am right then I wonder if I could spark interest.
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  9. #8 Re: Not a physics professor 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. C. Michael Turner
    Quote Originally Posted by davidstebbins
    So, Dr. Turner, are you suggesting that gravity is an energy wave?

    I take it from your username that you're a physics professor. Perhaps you could gain a claim to fame by actually writing and publishing a paper on this. Somewhere down the line, someone prestigious like Hawking is bound to see it.

    Also, in this paper, you may have to explain your mathematical reasoning. But hey, I've never written a scientific paper, so how should I know?
    I am not a physics professor. I do study a lot on my own and I also have no desire for fame. Have you ever shared something because it was good? Just for the sake of sharing? I am a loner with respect to physics but I am great at seeing the link between what appears to be disjointed facts. To me it is so obvious that I should not have found it but read it. A lot of people seem to get mad or discount me entirely but it no longer matters because I have been my best devil's advocate. Counter arguments help me sometimes fill in the blanks too. If I could give five reasons why I am right then I wonder if I could spark interest.
    Well, most physicists take the job purely out of a love for the craft (I know I did when I wanted to be one), so desire for fame shouldn't play a role in it, but if I had something interesting to contribute to the physics community, I'd at least tell someone who could make it big. Maybe write to Physics Today (the magazine), which many professional physicists read.

    But hey, that's just me. Do what you want. It's your theory.
    "The only two constants in the universe are the speed of light and human stupidity." - Albert Einstein.
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  10. #9 Re: black hole disappearence 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. C. Michael Turner
    I have proposed a new gravity theory a while back that explains many odd things that seem to go on in the universe and black holes are just another one. Imagine that the terms time and space are in fact two descriptions, actions, of a misunderstood process of matter decaying via the gravitational wave into space and the gravitational wave is a non-binding monopole which like other sources of radiation has constructive and destructive interference patterns but since it encompasses space itself it aligns matter as it evaporates into space through constructive interference which I have termed "Gravitational wave synchronization". Black holes are then just super condensed matter which is decaying creating space. Since In my threoy all matter is broken down to one substance with opposing two opposing forces then matter is actually trying to reform under this strong synchronization and falling back min at and before the event horizion except some forms of radiation can be given off by matter reforming and breaking down at the event horizion.

    So a black hole eventually decays into space itself because space is the lowest form of kenetic-sized matter. Just my opinion, but it does take the magic out of ALL of the mysteries of space.
    Turner, I strongly suggest that you read the following link before presenting any more of your baseless ideas. It's pretty obvious that you do not realize how foolish you are making yourself appear here.

    http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/06/19...ist/#more-1275

    Despite the fact that you seem convinced you've "discoverd" something, you can't pass muster on any of the three points raised in that link.
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  11. #10  
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    Well, shall we get back to the topic at hand, about my three points of confusion?
    "The only two constants in the universe are the speed of light and human stupidity." - Albert Einstein.
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  12. #11 Re: black hole disappearence 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. C. Michael Turner
    I have proposed a new gravity theory a while back that explains many odd things that seem to go on in the universe and black holes are just another one. Imagine that the terms time and space are in fact two descriptions, actions, of a misunderstood process of matter decaying via the gravitational wave into space and the gravitational wave is a non-binding monopole which like other sources of radiation has constructive and destructive interference patterns but since it encompasses space itself it aligns matter as it evaporates into space through constructive interference which I have termed "Gravitational wave synchronization". Black holes are then just super condensed matter which is decaying creating space. Since In my threoy all matter is broken down to one substance with opposing two opposing forces then matter is actually trying to reform under this strong synchronization and falling back min at and before the event horizion except some forms of radiation can be given off by matter reforming and breaking down at the event horizion.

    So a black hole eventually decays into space itself because space is the lowest form of kenetic-sized matter. Just my opinion, but it does take the magic out of ALL of the mysteries of space.
    Turner, I strongly suggest that you read the following link before presenting any more of your baseless ideas. It's pretty obvious that you do not realize how foolish you are making yourself appear here.

    http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/06/19...ist/#more-1275

    Despite the fact that you seem convinced you've "discoverd" something, you can't pass muster on any of the three points raised in that link.
    First of all a I am absolutely aware of how stupid I appear and I do appreciate the warning on a deep level. I have the link and if you will go to it and view Robert Wheeler's comments on radically conservative I believe that you will see the balls it takes, really other than more of the same how worse can it be.
    Here is the flip side.- Everything works in three dimensions and it explains three dimensions as not a stagnet concept but as a process that has a beginning, middle and end. My opinion does not violate one law but in turn it confirms on a deeper level most of what Newton and Einstein understood and exposes what they didn't or couldn't understand. My understanding, opinion, of the misunderstanding of the mechanism of gravitation, time, space, the constant speed of all E-M radiation in a vacuum independent of the movement of the source of reference frame, black holes, change in acceleration of the universe, the glue of galaxies all fit with my understanding.
    And yes very stupid and crazy but I can't get it not to work and it is driving me crazy!
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  13. #12 Re: black hole disappearence 
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    Can we PLEASE get back on topic!
    "The only two constants in the universe are the speed of light and human stupidity." - Albert Einstein.
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