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Thread: Trying to understand the formation of earth

  1. #1 Trying to understand the formation of earth 
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    I'm very new to this subject. I have some questions.

    1. Was there gravity in the center before the earth started cooling?

    2. Did magnitic energy help with its shape?

    3. Before it cooled, was it rotating? If not , there should be some sharp points along the surface, since it is assume universe is moving outward?

    4. I'm trying to understand the order of life. My guest is :
    a. sun
    b. ocean
    c. rain
    d. plants
    e. animal
    f. human- I believe this is last , or else they would have eaten all the animals. Since we are probably last ,it is our duty to maintain the planet.


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    1- yes gravity is what creates matter and present all through the life of a planet, star or anything considered matter.

    3- orbit, yes or we would have been pulled into the sun. yes probably some rotation, however this probably has changed in many ways since.
    the moon alone is thought to have moved outward from a 20k to its 240k mile orbit.

    4- sun-planet-crust- and so on to us. but the process was very slow and most has happened in the past 1/2 billion years out of the 4.6 billion year life.

    we can strive to out do nature and make ourselves feel good, but we really have no power over the conditions that allowed us to evolve. in order to grow as a species we have created or expanded animal and plant life, but all this had existed and subject to all we are.


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  4. #3  
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    Animals were around long before plants.
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matt
    Animals were around long before plants.
    how sure are you of that? Animals eat plants, plants make oxygen.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matt
    Animals were around long before plants.
    chemo-autotrophs were first (think sulphur bacteria), way before the plant-animal-fungi splits
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  7. #6  
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    Pretty sure. Animals are late precambrian and plants are ordovician. There are other photosynthetic organisms capable of creating oxygen and forming the base of a food chain. Most algae for example aren't plants.
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  8. #7 Re: Trying to understand the formation of earth 
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight
    I'm very new to this subject. I have some questions.

    1. Was there gravity in the center before the earth started cooling?

    2. Did magnitic energy help with its shape?

    3. Before it cooled, was it rotating? If not , there should be some sharp points along the surface, since it is assume universe is moving outward?

    4. I'm trying to understand the order of life. My guest is :
    a. sun
    b. ocean
    c. rain
    d. plants
    e. animal
    f. human- I believe this is last , or else they would have eaten all the animals. Since we are probably last ,it is our duty to maintain the planet.
    Gravity works on a centre of mass, but only for each object. The major Gravity well in the solar system is the Sun, which formed due to gravity and remains stable because of hydrogen fusion (explosive force) being balanced with it's own gravity (collapsing/falling force)

    The sun spins on it's axis every roughly 12 days earth time, with different bands of itself moving at different rates. It is gas after all so it can do this without needing to crack rocks etc. We can observe this directly through telescopes with filters on them or video cameras with low exposure settings. (or even the reflection of sun on an opaque surface after it has been focused with a lens)

    The sun is basically Hydrogen gas, the most common element in the universe and the simplest element in the universe. Hydrogen is 1 Electron and 1 Proton.

    most likley the sun formed out of a cloud of gas over a long time. Perhaps the death of a nearby star pushed the gas into a wave where ripples caused the gas to huddle together forming a point "heavier" than the rest, and then over a very very long time all the gas 'clumped together' toward this point eventually making the sun

    other points also clumped together. Perhaps even pieces of dust and rock were already around as space junk in the cloud of gas, maybe the sun was even caused by one of these.

    As the not-yet-burning sun started grabbing more and more hydrogen gas, so too did other objects in the cloud, however the sun was far bigger, and the bigger it got, the more gravity it produced, and the more gravity it had the easier it could grab more material to get even bigger. The biggest objects started eating smaller objects in collisions. Pretty soon the Sun was so heavy and big that something strange happened in the centre of the massive hydrogen/dust ball. Hydrogen atoms were being squeezed together so hard by the pressure of all the other atoms under so much gravity strain that they heated up. The electrons kept colliding with each other and couldn't stay with the Hydrogen atoms. The Protons normally refusing to come near each other due to electromagnetism were now bare.

    Remember - if you get a magnet and put two sides together, the magnet will clump together (this is like Electrons and Protons being attracted) but if you try the magnet the other way around so it's + to +, then the magnet repells away.

    there are so many protons now being crushed into each other that there is no "away" to repell to. Everywhere is inside another proton. Soon enough that is what happens. 2 Protons simply get overpowered and actually fuse together, even though they fight the whole way.

    This is almost like two people becoming siamise twins, or perhaps more realisticly, minced meat. The result is enormous heat and an expulsion of photons.... light. This now happens on an enormous scale in the core of the sun and suddenly there is enormous explosive pressure pushing the sun out. But it weighs so much that it cannot explode. Indeed it weighs SO much that the protons can't even push away from each other even after exploding, their explosion only increases the pressure, and gravity holds it all down.

    On the surface of the sun there is enormous heat and pressure, it starts to blow away anything that's not gravitationally bound to other objects. Gas fares worst because it is very light and easy to blow away. Rocks are less likley to blow away.

    Suddenly there is huge amounts of heat pumping away off the sun also. Hydrogen which has mixed with Oxygen over the time turns into gas all of a sudden when it used to be a solid. this gas mostly evaportates, leaving things close to the sun without this mass to draw upon.

    Earth (venus Mercury Mars) at this time is one of a large number of "rocks" that are floating around. Perhaps one of the larger ones. These rocks are in unstable non-circular orbits in close proximity. it's like an asteroid field, with all the gas being blown or boiled off by the new H-Bomb in the centre. Everything is going around the sun now because the sun is just huge compared to everything else. Some larger bodies attract smaller bodies to themselves. these are solid, or partially solid, masses of dust, rock, gas etc. Sometimes this attraction (gravity) causes things to join an orbit. More often it just leads to a straight out collision. As more things collide, they combine to form larger objects with more gravity. At high velocity these impacts turn the ground into liquid sometimes if the energy of collision is high enough. Liquid cools and the objects fuse together.

    From another Thread, I quote myself:

    Planets go around the Sun because the sun is Very very big. If the earth was the size of a peanut, then the sun would be something like a city block for comparison.

    The moon goes around the Earth because the Earth happens to be far closer. If the moon went around the earth in an orbit the size of your average roundabout, The earth is going around the sun in an orbit about the size of your average US State border.

    Thus the closer you are, the better gravity works.

    Now because objects want to move in a straight line, they resist the application of turning force. you can test this out in a car. Drive around a tight corner with some reasonable speed and you will find your body trying to pull "out of the turn". Not just your body, but any and all objects. In this case the reason you are turning is Friction between your tyres and the ground. The angle of the wheels forces the car to turn, however even it's chassis and body don't want to break their straight line, and you can see this whenever you see a car skid around a corner. The force of the matter fighting against turning causes the car's tyres to loose the grip on the road.

    The earth is doing the same, except in space there is no friction and so you will never actually slow down. The sun is trying to pull the earth "Straight down" into the middle of the sun, but the earth's mass wishes to continue it's current direction in a straight line. One way to think of an orbit is like this:

    The Sun/Earth is trying to pull you straight down toward it's centre. So you fall. The Sun/Earth can only accellerate you using gravity, which is limited by the size and proximity of the Sun/Earth and you will fall to whichever one is strongest, based on both distance and size. The Sun/Earth can only accelerate you at a certain rate, say 9.8m/s/s. (ie accelerating toward Earth at 9.8 metres per second adding 9.8 meters per second to your current velocity every second)

    However you are moving forwards also at a high speed, and by the time that you get to the point where the surface would have been, you have moved so far that it has carried you away from the surface of the object.

    ...

    Things which are massive and close will be attracted to each other, either in a collision relationship, or in an orbit (where the forward velocities are high enough so that when the objects fall toward each their forward velocity carries them out of the way.. as if you were "Missing" the ground by flying sideways). This never changes.

    The centre of mass isn't the "Cause" of gravity, the entire object is. However it is the acceleration point to which the 'vector' or direction of travel is centred toward as far as gravitational attraction is concerned. You standing on the ground is you being attracted to the mass of Earth itself, but the direction of attraction is to the centre of the planet, not to random points everywhere along the surface of the planet. You can tell this because you still fall "Down" when you are underground. This "Toward Centre" momentum would continue even if you are thousands of miles underground. However if you somehow removed all the dirt and rock and lava surrounding the centre of the earth, the mass of the earth and thus it's Gravity would reduce.
    Because of this "Down" is always to the centre of the mass, even though mass is spread out throughout all the planet. This is why you don't "fall Up" when you are in an underground cave or mine.

    Because Gravity always works toward the Middle of an object "Centre of Gravity", you will always fall straight toward the centre. If you move a few thousand KM West, you will still fall "STRAIGHT" to the centre.

    all points on the planet are being pulled straight to the centre of the planet's mass. This is why the earth is a sphere or roughly so. (the slight bulge at the equator is caused by centrifugal force, the same force that makes orbits work - the equator is moving fast, the South/North pole is just spinning around without any real "momentum" from the rotation... The equator in effect wants to stop being a circle, but gravity is holding it toward the centre).

    Thus it is not Magnetism which makes the earth Round, but rather Gravity and the propensity of matter to fall toward the centre of gravity. Magnetism actually does very little, beyond holding atoms together and trying to keep Protons from touching each other. Literal Magnetism (ie compass/northern lights) does even less, simply holding charged particles in it's magnetic lines and making molten metals set in a specific way. Magnets do not significantly attract masses toward them except under extremely close proximities. Gravity has a much further reach than magnetism.


    3. Before it cooled, was it rotating? If not , there should be some sharp points along the surface, since it is assume universe is moving outward?
    The Cloud of Hydrogen Gas that created the sun planets moons asteroids comets and anything else inside our solar system was likley rotating even before the sun started fusing hydrogen (ie before it was a sun). I don't know what you mean by "Before it Cooled". Earth's surface has nothing to do with it's rotation. That's to do with simple inertia mixed with some complicated tidal issues with the moon/s.

    Remember also Earth was being slammed left right and centre by objects falling toward it from space. Still happens though not often anymore. We also have a gaseous atmosphere, Back then mostly carbon dioxide (remember Volcanos can vent carbon dioxide plus other gasses. Rocks have gasses in them... and algae/plants etc often processes Carbon Dioxide as a kind of breathing process releasing Oxygen as a byproduct, effectivley Volcanos (and the sea) make atmosphere, and plants/algae/bacteria change it)

    Universe is moving outward? If you are talking about Big Bang/Universe Expansion, then your scale is all wrong. The Earth is not expanding, and the distance between planets is not expanding. Neither is the distance between stars in our galaxy. All of this is locked together with gravity. The only expansion of the universe is between galaxies and galaxy clusters. The actual space between them is opening up, getting further, but inside the galaxies, everything is maintained by gravity.

    Baloon with Coins affixed to it: As you blow up the baloon (making the "balooniverse" bigger) the skin of the baloon (Space-time) expands and stretches, the coins get further apart (expanding universe) however the coins themselves don't stretch. They remain the same size, held together by the fact that they are metal not rubber (Gravity). Thus the expansion of the universe has no effect while looking at Earth, and no effect when looking at the entire galaxy of stars called the milky way. (or when looking at the LMC/SMC galaxies or Andromeda). Only at the huge scale does it take effect.

    The difference in scale here is like the difference between "the bacteria on that ant" and "Flying from New York to Hong Kong" Just because adding 15% to the speed of the 747 flying to Hong Kong will make the plane get there 40 minutes quicker doesn't mean that adding 15% to the speed of the amoeba sliding from the Ant's Thorax to the Abdomen will get it there 40 minutes quicker too.


    4. I'm trying to understand the order of life. My guest is :
    a. sun
    b. ocean
    c. rain
    d. plants
    e. animal
    f. human- I believe this is last , or else they would have eaten all the animals. Since we are probably last ,it is our duty to maintain the planet.
    B: How can an ocean exist without land underneath it?
    C: Is not Rain a simple effect of having an Ocean near a Sun? Without air pressure you can't have liquid water. Without Air the Boiling Point of Water is the same temperature that Water stops being Solid. There is no Liquid point. In the earth air pressure, all 3 (liquid solid gas) can exist depending on temperature. The sun however can evaporate water without the water being at boiling point. You know this because the Sea never boils. There is always moisture in the sky regardless of temperature (ok i'll make an exception to parts of Antarctica apparently -70 degrees kills most moisture in the air). Water molecules literally float in the air. not just as clouds but also as humidity. When water consolidates out of the air as it gets cold you get things like fog and dew. Go outside at 2am after a fine day without rain. you'll see what I mean .

    D. Close enough, though I'd say Algae came first, you have to get that volcanic air processed into something a bit more habitable for Plants. There's some nasty chemicals there that only Algae and similar are really good at dealing with.

    f: I don't see Humans as being "the pinnicle" of development. We are the best this planet has come up with so far, but we are not the end of evolution. However I do believe it is wise of us to maintain the planet, or at least not make it's environment WORSE, if for no other reason than Being alive is a good thing. If we destroy the planet and how it works, then we die out as a species. We are the top of the food chain. Destroying our own source of food is a great way to ensure your species stops breeding. Even Darwinism would say that we should be trying to keep our species viable.

    From a universe standpoint, We are the only things that we know about which have the capacity to make technology to leave planets. There is a chance Humans are the only form of intelligent life this universe has produced. To kill ourselves would seem a horrid waste of the universe's time.
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