Thread: I believe I’ve proven that there isn’t an infinite number of universes.

A decently common theory is the idea that there are an infinite number of universes, in something called the multiverse. This implies that there is a universe for everything. If this statement is true, then that would mean that another universe managed to invade our universe at this very second, because an infinite number of universes means an infinite number of possibilities. If said theory is true, then there should be an infinite amount of universes invading our universe at this very second. Because this isn’t happening, this leads to the final conclusion that there isn’t an infinite number of universes, which means that either we’re the sole universe, or that there is a finite number of other universes. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Multiverse idea does not imply an infinite number. It is all guesswork, like supernatural.

Originally Posted by mathman

Multiverse idea does not imply an infinite number. It is all guesswork, like supernatural.

Well, to be fair, they didn’t dismiss the idea of a multiverse, simply the idea of an infinite one.

Originally Posted by mathman

Multiverse idea does not imply an infinite number. It is all guesswork, like supernatural.

I think there are a few different "multiverse" models

Which model are you thinking of?

The one I have (extremely vaguely)in mind might be an infinite "collection" of "parallel "(not parallel at all) physical systems which have no connection to each other at all except possibly at their "birth"

So ,entirely pointless as model, and more like a religion as you say.

On the other hand if any of the "multiverse" models is able to make a prediction that can be verified then I will (or will not) eat my hat

When Krauss said that at some point in the future, expansion of space at greater than c will eventually leave each galaxy on their own with no evidence that they are part of a larger universe. For all intents they would be a universe in their own right and civilizations that arise in these galaxies will form their own theories as to whether other universes exist. All said, my point is today we may also be lacking evidence for other universes and unfortunately all we can do is speculate.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startsw...h=50fbeaa42fcf

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

When Krauss said that at some point in the future, expansion of space at greater than c will eventually leave each galaxy on their own with no evidence that they are part of a larger universe. For all intents they would be a universe in their own right and civilizations that arise in these galaxies will form their own theories as to whether other universes exist. All said, my point is today we may also be lacking evidence for other universes and unfortunately all we can do is speculate.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startsw...h=50fbeaa42fcf

I’m not diminishing the idea of a multiverse to any extent, and I do truly agree with you. I’m simply stating that an infinite number of universes is impossible, the idea of a multiverse on the other hand, isn’t.

What are the finite number of universes in? And same goes for each container following.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

What are the finite number of universes in? And same goes for each container following.

If we were just talking about our own universe (as we best understand it) I think it is considered that it is not "in" anything.

So following that idea ,if there were a finite number of multiverses they would similarly be "standalone".(not "in" another one)

Originally Posted by geordief

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

What are the finite number of universes in? And same goes for each container following.

If we were just talking about our own universe (as we best understand it) I think it is considered that it is not "in" anything.

So following that idea ,if there were a finite number of multiverses they would similarly be "standalone".(not "in" another one)

Exactly.

Originally Posted by RyanCulbertson

Originally Posted by geordief

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

What are the finite number of universes in? And same goes for each container following.

If we were just talking about our own universe (as we best understand it) I think it is considered that it is not "in" anything.

So following that idea ,if there were a finite number of multiverses they would similarly be "standalone".(not "in" another one)

Exactly.

If all universes are stand alone then how can one prove there are finite or infinite numbers of them?

From the OP I assume that there’s a universe for every probability and I’m guessing attacking means somehow interfering with our universe. So because there’s a probability that universes should jostle about and it isn’t happening then there’s only finite universes. The one probability that other universes won’t bump into ours isn’t considered in this case?

This is all pretty surreal(a bit Alice in Wonderland) but how do we know that all the different probable universes are not "attacking" us?

It might just be normal and we would have no way of detecting it unless some razor sharp mind came up with a way and spoiled the fun.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

If all universes are stand alone then how can one prove there are finite or infinite numbers of them

Beats me.If there is any interaction of any description between so called and hypothesized "multiverses" then maybe they are all just parts of the one (standalone) universe?

Originally Posted by geordief

This is all pretty surreal(a bit Alice in Wonderland) but how do we know that all the different probable universes are not "attacking" us?

It might just be normal and we would have no way of detecting it unless some razor sharp mind came up with a way and spoiled the fun.

I’ve had this question asked before, and my answer is that there must be an infinite amount of universes invading us while letting it be known to us.

Could it be that stand alone universes do not ‘attack’ one another? Another reason they’re stand alone? If so, there is no telling how many there are. Kind of paradoxical to think a universe is stand alone if there be more than one. Is this where another plane of existence explains presence of other universes? If so then how many planes of existence would there be? Finite or infinite amount? Assuming one universe per plane.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Could it be that stand alone universes do not ‘attack’ one another? Another reason they’re stand alone? If so, there is no telling how many there are. Kind of paradoxical to think a universe is stand alone if there be more than one. Is this where another plane of existence explains presence of other universes? If so then how many planes of existence would there be? Finite or infinite amount? Assuming one universe per plane.

If they exist they could be out of our ken for all practical or theoretical purposes.

But I have heard the idea that our universe may have been created with an anti universe (the two created at the same time)and if that had happened then it might just be out of our ken for practical purposes whilst a theory might be constructed as to what the companion univers might look like even if its existence was of zero consequence for us.

I think the idea of them "attacking" us may be one of the interpretations of quantum mechanics but I know next to nothing about that(just about able to follow a pop sci documentary if I try hard)

If we superposition quantum particle(s), multiple states at same time, are we creating new universe(s) or adding to this one?

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

If we superposition quantum particle(s), multiple states at same time, are we creating new universe(s) or adding to this one?

Isn't that just a model?Something to allow us to make predictions.

Is it like virtual particles which (I think I may have heard) are just something to hang the maths on?

Wouldn’t be first time I’ve misunderstood stuff while representing laymen of the world. Qubits popped into my head. My thinking is it’s still one particle but in different states until measured. I was just wondering about the different states and if there is a ‘where’ for each one. Is it in limbo? Even for something simple like one or the other for a particle is two states until measured….does the other state have a home? Why does it always seem to come back to the cat in the box?

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Wouldn’t be first time I’ve misunderstood stuff while representing laymen of the world. Qubits popped into my head. My thinking is it’s still one particle but in different states until measured. I was just wondering about the different states and if there is a ‘where’ for each one. Is it in limbo? Even for something simple like one or the other for a particle is two states until measured….does the other state have a home? Why does it always seem to come back to the cat in the box?

What about if the particle only exists when measured and in between measurements doesn't exist?

It did exist at the time of the last measurement (measurement -existence) and exists again (as a different object?) when it interacts with another object?

All the "superimposed states states" are measurements that have not been performed because there has been no interaction(interaction=measurement)

Originally Posted by geordief

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Wouldn’t be first time I’ve misunderstood stuff while representing laymen of the world. Qubits popped into my head. My thinking is it’s still one particle but in different states until measured. I was just wondering about the different states and if there is a ‘where’ for each one. Is it in limbo? Even for something simple like one or the other for a particle is two states until measured….does the other state have a home? Why does it always seem to come back to the cat in the box?

What about if the particle only exists when measured and in between measurements doesn't exist?

Nice thought! Probability seems to exist in some mysterious place(maybe in this universe, somewhere else or nowhere) but the measured/measurer appear to belong in this universe.

All the "superimposed states states" are measurements that have not been performed because there has been no interaction(interaction=measurement)

Superimposed vs superpositioned…. Same thing or is one an image and the other something? I think that would mean you can’t discount existence of other universes?

How big does a universe have to be? Could a universe only have one particle? Be one particle? One probability? Could it be all universes are one particle and what we think is one universe is actually countless numbers of them?

I probably wrote "superimpose" mistakenly for "superposition"..

I think I may well have heard the idea that there is just one particle (or wave) in the whole universe but can't say much more than that.

Perhaps it is a semi respectable theory

Actually a short google search brings up this site https://interestingengineering.com/s...e-the-same-one

where a very similar idea is attributed to John Wheeler who was ,I think very highly thought of ...and successful

Originally Posted by geordief

I probably wrote "superimpose" mistakenly for "superposition"..

I think I may well have heard the idea that there is just one particle (or wave) in the whole universe but can't say much more than that.

Perhaps it is a semi respectable theory

Actually a short google search brings up this site https://interestingengineering.com/s...e-the-same-one

where a very similar idea is attributed to John Wheeler who was ,I think very highly thought of ...and successful

I’m no Wheeler. At least he knew why he said it. It almost seems one needs to prove what isn’t a universe before proving there is one.

Originally Posted by RyanCulbertson

A decently common theory is the idea that there are an infinite number of universes, in something called the multiverse. This implies that there is a universe for everything. If this statement is true, then that would mean that another universe managed to invade our universe at this very second, because an infinite number of universes means an infinite number of possibilities. If said theory is true, then there should be an infinite amount of universes invading our universe at this very second. Because this isn’t happening, this leads to the final conclusion that there isn’t an infinite number of universes, which means that either we’re the sole universe, or that there is a finite number of other universes. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

I think you made an invalid assumption. An infinite number of universes does not mean that everything is possible. If everything that is possible happens, this does not mean that anything that is impossible happens. That is, an infinite number of universes does not include any in which the impossible happens. Also, an infinite number of universes does not itself imply that everything that is possible happens. That everything that is possible happens is the assumption we need to make, and this implies an infinite number of universes. To disprove this assumption requires that something that doesn't happen in any universe is actually possible. You have not addressed the issue of universes invading other universes being possible. If such a notion is impossible, then your proof is invalid.