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Thread: Reaching The Stars

  1. #1 Reaching The Stars 
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    As it is, the closest star outside our solar system, Alpha Centuri, is approximately 4.5 light years away so traveling at light speed it will take four and a half years to reach Alpha Centuri and that's just Alpha Centuri. Most other stars are much further. Lots of stars in our galaxy are hundreds, even thousands of light years away. I remember a science teacher I had in the 5th grade and she said that as far as visiting distant stars there's two conceivable ways we could do it, we could either develop ships that can fly at light speed or we could cryogenically freeze people and put them in suspended animation so that they wouldn't age during the time it takes to get there. She said we would probably end up having to freeze people instead of going at light speed.


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    3rd way: generation ships.


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    If you travel at near light speed, your time lapse can be much less than the time for light to travel. For exmple travel to Alpha Centauri might take many earth years, but the people on the space ship could age only a few days.
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    It seems like a worthy goal to ensure that our civilization does not succumb to its basest internecine instincts (or simple overwhelming natural disaster) and gains a foothold somehow away from the Earth.

    All the same it would be a far greater achievement to ensure our communal survival and prosperity on the Earth as it stands.

    As they say ,the poison that doesn't kill you makes you stronger and if we can overcome the looming self inflicted disasters that appear to be gathering then the test we will have passed will dwarf any colonization of near or distant planets.

    It may also be a more realistic avenue of survival at the end of the day .
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    Lost in Space and Star Trek promised us teleportation.
    Step into the transporter room and your body will be broken down into molecules, then atoms, then quarks and electrons, then probability waves, and you'll be there in 4.5 years.
    (Hopefully).
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    (Hopefully).
    "I teleported home one night with Ron and Sid and Meg, Ron stole Meggie's heart away, and I got Sidney's leg."

    HHGG

    Adams also described teleportation as "not quite as fun as a good solid kick to the head"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    3rd way: generation ships.
    That could work although it would take tremendous resources.

    There is also the ethical concern about people who might not want to spend their entire lives on a ship.
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  9. #8  
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    Adams also described teleportation as "not quite as fun as a good solid kick to the head
    Only clones of the astronauts will be teleported so if the transporter malfunctions then re-clone and start again (Health and Safety Directive 201975.4).
    The episode of Star Trek where two Kirks beam back aboard the Enterprise, only one real, will be not be possible.
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    I accidentally made a duplicate post so since I can't delete posts Im making this change to show this post was originally a duplicate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    If you travel at near light speed, your time lapse can be much less than the time for light to travel. For exmple travel to Alpha Centauri might take many earth years, but the people on the space ship could age only a few days.
    That was one of the solutions my science teacher proposed, going at light speed or near light speed, although its more likely we will end up freezing people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photon Guy View Post
    There is also the ethical concern about people who might not want to spend their entire lives on a ship.
    Unless they were criminals facing the death penalty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    It seems like a worthy goal to ensure that our civilization does not succumb to its basest internecine instincts (or simple overwhelming natural disaster) and gains a foothold somehow away from the Earth.

    All the same it would be a far greater achievement to ensure our communal survival and prosperity on the Earth as it stands.

    As they say ,the poison that doesn't kill you makes you stronger and if we can overcome the looming self inflicted disasters that appear to be gathering then the test we will have passed will dwarf any colonization of near or distant planets.

    It may also be a more realistic avenue of survival at the end of the day .
    It is a great goal to ensure our communal survival and prosperity on Earth but that doesn't mean we shouldn't explore, and furthermore, exploration and finding new places and discovering new stuff can contribute to our survival and prosperity on Earth.

    After all, you could say the same thing about the explorers of the old days, why go out sailing and looking for other lands and other continents? Why not just strive for communal survival and prosperity on the continent where we live? Try telling that to Columbus or Marco Polo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Photon Guy View Post
    There is also the ethical concern about people who might not want to spend their entire lives on a ship.
    Unless they were criminals facing the death penalty.
    Then they should be executed.

    Australia was used as a prison colony but only for people who committed lesser crimes. If you committed a more severe crime you would not be sent to Australia you would hang.

    And besides, with the ethical concern of people who will spend their entire lives on a ship when they might not want to Im obviously not talking about anybody who voluntarily gets on, or even criminals and what not who might be sentenced to go but their children and grandchildren and so forth. With a generational ship, many generations of children will be born and spend their entire lives on the ship. They didn't choose to be there and there is no indication that they would want to spend their entire lives on a ship.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photon Guy View Post
    And besides, with the ethical concern of people who will spend their entire lives on a ship when they might not want to Im obviously not talking about anybody who voluntarily gets on, or even criminals and what not who might be sentenced to go but their children and grandchildren and so forth. With a generational ship, many generations of children will be born and spend their entire lives on the ship. They didn't choose to be there and there is no indication that they would want to spend their entire lives on a ship.
    I fail to see any "ethical problem".
    Space exploration doesn't (so far) use involuntary candidates (except the animals used in the early stages) therefore one would assume that generation ships' crews would be volunteers. As for the "question" of their descendants that's somewhat moot (and vaguely ridiculous) - did present-day citizens of the USA (for example) get any choice in where they were born after their descendants moved from Europe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    As for the "question" of their descendants that's somewhat moot (and vaguely ridiculous) - did present-day citizens of the USA (for example) get any choice in where they were born after their descendants moved from Europe?
    That's not the same thing. Its one thing to be born in a country or continent that your grandparents weren't born it its another thing to be born on a ship and stuck on that ship your entire life without being able to leave and without being able to go back to Earth. I live in the USA and I've got roots in China and Europe. Now although I have no desire to I could move to China or Europe and live there. Somebody born on a generation ship doesn't have that choice. And even if I was stuck in the USA, which Im not, its not the same thing as being stuck on a ship all your life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photon Guy View Post
    That's not the same thing. Its one thing to be born in a country or continent that your grandparents weren't born it its another thing to be born on a ship and stuck on that ship your entire life without being able to leave and without being able to go back to Earth.
    Not really.

    Somebody born on a generation ship doesn't have that choice.
    Someone born on a generation ship might not get born at all if their parents stayed on Earth.

    And even if I was stuck in the USA, which Im not, its not the same thing as being stuck on a ship all your life.
    Again, not exactly the case. Many people don't have the mobility that (to use your example) modern Americans do.
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    I suspect for a generation ship to work it would need to contain and maintain the technological capabilities of a decent sized industrial nation. The technological capabilities of a much more advanced industrial nation than any now current. It would need to have a complete working economy, capable of remaking every essential bit of equipment and do so entirely from resources carried with them. That's a huge threshold to get across. Which makes me very doubtful. Besides what is needed to keep the ship operational it needs a comprehensive range of other services - eg medical, childcare, education - and what if the next generations don't turn up any truly brilliant nuclear engineers capable of working out why the rebuilt fusion power plant doesn't work when everything looks right and it should? What do they do with the kids who just aren't that bright? Isn't it still partly chance that the kids of smart people are smart in turn? And that some of the most brilliant people have been born to parents who aren't exceptional; maybe it's someone very ordinary (who never got that permission to breed in the ordered world of a generation ship) that would have been the parent of the brilliant person who saves the day? That's the thing about very large societies and economies - they can sift and sort to have the talented rise to achieve their potential greatness and still have room for the ordinary folk from whom the talented rose.

    I don't see that there are many parallels between starflight and the sailing explorers - the spaceships are nothing like the sailing ships of those times, nor is space like the ocean. They used technology that was thoroughly proven and used every day, just loaded up with more supplies. Drinkable water isn't going to fall out of the sky. Dragging a net won't bring up anything anyone can eat. When they make landfall, there won't be edible animals to hunt or people already there, to show them where they got that heavy yellow metal or trade sacks of local grain for spare nails or glass beads. Yet the one way I see that people could end up crossing between the stars would be by making use of resources along the way; if self reliant colonisation of deep space objects becomes possible it becomes possible to migrate from one deep space object to another, building up local populations and economies both in support of each other and in support of colonisations further along the direction to another star. In some distant future their descendants may get there.
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    Generation ship will include a gym, and will be resupplied from earth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photon Guy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    As for the "question" of their descendants that's somewhat moot (and vaguely ridiculous) - did present-day citizens of the USA (for example) get any choice in where they were born after their descendants moved from Europe?
    That's not the same thing. Its one thing to be born in a country or continent that your grandparents weren't born it its another thing to be born on a ship and stuck on that ship your entire life without being able to leave and without being able to go back to Earth. I live in the USA and I've got roots in China and Europe. Now although I have no desire to I could move to China or Europe and live there. Somebody born on a generation ship doesn't have that choice. And even if I was stuck in the USA, which Im not, its not the same thing as being stuck on a ship all your life.
    Generation ships won't be built unless we can demonstrate that we can build self contained environments that can last for generations. This would likely be done by the slow development of O'Neill type space settlements. Long before we set out to the stars we will have whole populations who consider it perfectly normal to live in large "tin cans", and to who making an interstellar trip would be like taking their home with them.
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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    Quote Originally Posted by Photon Guy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    As for the "question" of their descendants that's somewhat moot (and vaguely ridiculous) - did present-day citizens of the USA (for example) get any choice in where they were born after their descendants moved from Europe?
    That's not the same thing. Its one thing to be born in a country or continent that your grandparents weren't born it its another thing to be born on a ship and stuck on that ship your entire life without being able to leave and without being able to go back to Earth. I live in the USA and I've got roots in China and Europe. Now although I have no desire to I could move to China or Europe and live there. Somebody born on a generation ship doesn't have that choice. And even if I was stuck in the USA, which Im not, its not the same thing as being stuck on a ship all your life.
    Generation ships won't be built unless we can demonstrate that we can build self contained environments that can last for generations. This would likely be done by the slow development of O'Neill type space settlements. Long before we set out to the stars we will have whole populations who consider it perfectly normal to live in large "tin cans", and to who making an interstellar trip would be like taking their home with them.
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Generation ship will include a gym, and will be resupplied from earth.
    Don't be ridiculous.
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    Janus, it won't be enough to demonstrate that people can live in those cans, they have to be able to live in them sustainably, for longer than any civilisations have ever survived, and do it without access to any outside resources. The more people and resources the better, except that for purposes of minimising trip time, the less people and resources the better. Technology well beyond what we can currently achieve is needed, optimised both for long working life and for simplicity of repair and remaking, when advanced technologies tend to be a combination and convergence of excellence from within many specialties - thousands of specialties? The ability for colonies to live self reliantly, entirely off the resources of deep space objects like comets and asteroids and with the excess of capability to successfully build and supply more spaceships seems a more fundamental threshold to exceed than living within a can.

    Dywyddyr, I don't think it will go the distance without some way to resupply, repair, rebuild and replenish - but, no, not supply from Earth. I don't think doing such a trip in one go is going to be an option; I think it would require doing the trip with stops along the way - which would effectively make other stars optional as far as choice of end destination goes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Generation ship will include a gym, and will be resupplied from earth.
    Don't be ridiculous.
    Will look something like this.
    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ge...w=1680&bih=933
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    The fastest spacecraft that we've built so far is the New Horizons probe which goes at a speed of 36,000 MPH. If we were to build a generational ship that goes that fast and with Alpha Centuri being approximately 4.5 lightyears, I've done the calculations, it would take approximately 83872 years to reach Alpha Centuri and that's just Alpha Centuri, our closest neighbor. Most other stars would take much longer to reach. Imagine just how many generations of people there would be on a ship that is gong on a trip for 83872 years all the resources and upkeep it would require. The entire world economy would not be enough to afford the expenses of having such a ship. We just don't have the resources. I would say freezing people, or even going at light speed, is more feasible.
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  27. #26  
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    Yes, but some newspapers have claimed that NASA and China have tested warp drives.
    Who knows?
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    Don't be ridiculous.





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    Computers are the fastest growing and best funded technology on Earth. Soon we will be able read personality data and send it. All we'll really have to send is a transceiver unit. We just have to find reasonably well evolved life forms to receive our minds. An electric catapult 300,000 miles long launching at 1000 Gs could send the transceiver at .01c. That gets to alpha centauri in 400 years. Assuming there are well evolved bodies to steal. Otherwise multi generation ships using mind transfer, cloning, and mind wiping to keep the astronauts fresh you wouldn't need a large crew. Just enough to reliably maintain the ship. This way you have human bodies at the destination to transfer to. Third option is aliens have already done it and we get them to let us ride along. Since they are letting, or guiding us, into advanced computer technology they may want us to join them. Could that be our destiny? Riding across the universe on our thumbs? That is, those who haven't worn out their thumbs on twitter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by doitright View Post
    That gets to alpha centauri in 400 years. Assuming there are well evolved bodies to steal. Otherwise multi generation ships using mind transfer, cloning, and mind wiping to keep the astronauts fresh you wouldn't need a large crew. Just enough to reliably maintain the ship. This way you have human bodies at the destination to transfer to. Third option is aliens have already done it and we get them to let us ride along. Since they are letting, or guiding us, into advanced computer technology they may want us to join them. Could that be our destiny? Riding across the universe on our thumbs? That is, those who haven't worn out their thumbs on twitter.
    I think we're being pessimistic. In 50 years time I confidently predict aircraft will be fitted with warp drives. We will get to the far side of the world in minutes and Alpha Centauri in months.
    Riding with aliens? Could be a good sci-fi story. Would there be a charge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by doitright View Post
    Computers are the fastest growing and best funded technology on Earth. Soon we will be able read personality data and send it.
    Soon? Highly doubtful.

    All we'll really have to send is a transceiver unit. We just have to find reasonably well evolved life forms to receive our minds.
    Whut?

    An electric catapult 300,000 miles long launching at 1000 Gs could send the transceiver at .01c.
    Apart from the ridiculousness of a 300,000 mile long structure ...

    Assuming there are well evolved bodies to steal. Otherwise multi generation ships using mind transfer, cloning, and mind wiping to keep the astronauts fresh you wouldn't need a large crew.
    The science fiction section is elsewhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doitright View Post
    Computers are the fastest growing and best funded technology on Earth. Soon we will be able read personality data and send it.
    Soon? Highly doubtful.
    I see you just don't understand what big money and fast development of computers does for the mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doitright View Post
    All we'll really have to send is a transceiver unit. We just have to find reasonably well evolved life forms to receive our minds.
    Whut?
    I see you don't recognize a contingent statement either.

    [QUOTE=Dywyddyr;614821]
    Quote Originally Posted by doitright View Post
    An electric catapult 300,000 miles long launching at 1000 Gs could send the transceiver at .01c.
    Apart from the ridiculousness of a 300,000 mile long structure ...
    You think a 20 million man spacecraft is cheaper? Wait a minute. Maybe you just didn't think that most, and likely certainly, all 300,000 mile long structure will be in space.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by doitright View Post
    Assuming there are well evolved bodies to steal. Otherwise multi generation ships using mind transfer, cloning, and mind wiping to keep the astronauts fresh you wouldn't need a large crew.
    The science fiction section is elsewhere.
    Why? Because it doesn't fit with your star wars and star trek fantasies? It is, if not the only physically possible foreseeable way, it is the least expensive by a factor of billions if not trillions. And the most important thing, since you clearly missed the most important thing, it's development is FUNDED!!!
    I guarantee with absolute metaphysical certainty that we will send a transceiver at .01c before we send a person .99c.

    Maybe you should have a fantasy section for your warp drives, wormholes, and ruby slippers.
    This is not sci fi. It's called futurism. It takes understanding current developing technology and extends it to reasonable possibility. Unlike sci fi fantasy which takes the slimmest thread of physics theory and fantasizes on it.
    Last edited by doitright; May 11th, 2018 at 04:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by doitright View Post
    I see you just don't understand what big money and fast development of computers does for the mind.
    And I see that all you have is unsupported supposition.

    I see you don't recognize a contingent statement either.
    And again.

    You think a 20 million man spacecraft is cheaper? Wait a minute. Maybe you just didn't think that most, and likely certainly, all 300,000 mile long structure will be in space.
    Where do you get "20 million man spacecraft" from?
    And I wasn't talking about cost.

    Why? Because it doesn't fit with your star wars and star trek fantasies? It is, if not the only physically possible foreseeable way, it is the least expensive by a factor of billions if not trillions. And the most important thing, since you clearly missed the most important thing, it's development is FUNDED!!!
    I guarantee with absolute metaphysical certainty that we will send a transceiver at .01c before we send a person .99c.

    Maybe you should have a fantasy section for your warp drives, wormholes, and ruby slippers.
    This is not sci fi. It's called futurism. It takes understanding current developing technology and extends it to reasonable possibility. Unlike sci fi fantasy which takes the slimmest thread of physics theory and fantasizes on it.
    Drivel.
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    Given we am living in the early part of the 21st century we can only speculate about the technology necessary to reach the stars.
    I believe we will certainly achieve this objective given our species, and our technological civilisation, survive in the long-run.
    I do think the human species will survive, but I am less sure about our civilisation.
    Assuming both escape destruction it is impossible for us to predict the technological advances that will occur in the next 1000 years, and beyond. This almost certainly applies even to the next 100 years.
    For me the need to explore the rest of what exists is a "built-in" property of the human mind.
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