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View Poll Results: Would the photon increase to greater velocities than C

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Thread: Photons and Black Holes

  1. #1 Photons and Black Holes 
    Forum Ph.D. Nevyn's Avatar
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    if you fired a photon around the gravity well of a black hole, sling shotting it around the black hole's gravity and back out, would the photon which is already traveling at the speed of light increase to higher velocities? or am i thinking and speaking the impossible


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  3. #2  
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    I think it was a little known chap called Albert Einstein who coined the phrase 'c is the universal constant' - enough said?


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  4. #3  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
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    einstein said:
    "The speed of light is the same in every reference frame"
    wich has been shown to be true

    so no they wont.
    But you can make them go faster than C via QM phenomenas wich have been shown
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  5. #4 Re: Photons and Black Holes 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevyn
    if you fired a photon around the gravity well of a black hole, sling shotting it around the black hole's gravity and back out, would the photon which is already traveling at the speed of light increase to higher velocities? or am i thinking and speaking the impossible
    the idea energy can travel at 186,200mps, gives no reason or cause for a lack of faster speed. we assume electromagnetic energy is what we know and we think we know all that is energy. my question has been, what barrier is it that holds velocity to this speed. likewise i question what energy may exist in the universe.

    exotic dark matter, which i am leery of to even discuss, certainly is not in our spectrum if it exist. for some reason NASA or their science people are insistent on this being something other then matter we understand. matter and energy that would simple pass through matter and energy we understand. a new article has been posted, at Fox News, science.

    as to BH, its not conclusive, that energy exist, in our visual conception. they do infer energy is received from the BH source, which counters the idea light energy cannot escape.
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  6. #5  
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    Jackson, the faster you move the slower time passes for you relevant to an independant observer. If you could travel as fast as a photon you would experience no time, a photon therefore does not decay in our time.

    It seems logical to me therefore that travelling faster than light would send you back in time, but only to the point where you exceeded it, this means effectively, at the instant your speed rises you go back to a lesser speed, this instant would be within 1 planck time, the smallest division.

    Exceeding light speed is a no-no for you, me, the cat and the photon.
    Tachyons are hyperthetical unproven particles thought to travel faster than light. I am sceptical but open minded as to whether they actually 'exist'.
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  7. #6  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
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    The faster you move the slower the time goes and the shorter distances get. SO you end up with constant C.

    and why you cant reach it is also cause mass increase so the faster you go the more force you need to get you even faster and to get to C youd either need a infinite force for a finite time or a finite force for a infinite time

    If tachyons were to exist there would be a infinite amount of them at big bang if universe exist for a inifnite time. maybe thats whats caused big bang :wink:
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  8. #7 Re: Photons and Black Holes 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevyn
    if you fired a photon around the gravity well of a black hole, sling shotting it around the black hole's gravity and back out, would the photon which is already traveling at the speed of light increase to higher velocities? or am i thinking and speaking the impossible
    The reason why you can't move faster than light and light just moves as fast as light, is the combination of conservation of energy and energy-matter equivalence.

    When you accelerate something, the energy used is not wasted. It is "stored" in the object as something we call kinetic energy. Yet, kinetic energy equals to mass by a reason of e/c2. And this "additional" mass must be accelerated, too. The faster an object goes, the higher its kinetic energy -and the higher the mass, too. Eventually the object will be a samssive as the unvierse and/or will require more energy than the whole mas sof the unvierse in order to keepa ccelrating its mass+kynetic energy.

    The photon in your example just gains energy, like moving from radio band to x-ray band.

    You may wonder, why light goes at the speed of light. Well, light haves no mass, just energy. Smart one. :wink:
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  9. #8 Shadow particle 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
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    What about the photon's shadow mass particle ?
    That too would have to move at C.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  10. #9 Re: Shadow particle 
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins
    What about the photon's shadow mass particle ?
    That too would have to move at C.
    what shadow particle are you refering to?
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  11. #10  
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    I am unsure on this, nothing can move faster than light... That is the view of almost every scientist in the world (apart from tachyons but they are only theoretical and do not physically exist.) But if the gravity of something such as a black hole is so large it can pull light in and hold it their my thought is wouldn’t the closer light got to the black hole the faster it would go due to the force of gravity pulling on the photon?
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee W
    I am unsure on this, nothing can move faster than light... That is the view of almost every scientist in the world (apart from tachyons but they are only theoretical and do not physically exist.) But if the gravity of something such as a black hole is so large it can pull light in and hold it their my thought is wouldn’t the closer light got to the black hole the faster it would go due to the force of gravity pulling on the photon?
    nope, since gravity isnt a force in that sense. and C is constant in every frame even gravitational, except inside the event horizont there is nothign we know about it in there thou
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  13. #12  
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    'A' is for all that there is.
    'B' is for the Big bang.
    'c' is for the constant speed of light, wherever it is.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Jackson, the faster you move the slower time passes for you relevant to an independant observer. If you could travel as fast as a photon you would experience no time, a photon therefore does not decay in our time.

    It seems logical to me therefore that travelling faster than light would send you back in time, but only to the point where you exceeded it, this means effectively, at the instant your speed rises you go back to a lesser speed, this instant would be within 1 planck time, the smallest division.

    Exceeding light speed is a no-no for you, me, the cat and the photon.
    Tachyons are hyperthetical unproven particles thought to travel faster than light. I am sceptical but open minded as to whether they actually 'exist'.
    the cat, you and me are mass, which is said gains additional mass near C. our barrier then is the gained mass. energy is massless, can gain nothing, cares nothing about time, but is somehow said to have a barrier. the probable answer is in the velocity attainable in mass, which is the source of all energy, but no one seems to understand why.

    some think you travel back wards, i would suggest to the observer or what exist time stands still and not back wards. the traveler regardless of time spent at plus C, will age accordingly, while time has stood still to the observer. some also feel you should simply lose the mass gained nearing C. other think there are realms or that everything now moving at C is in that state which you then enter, indirectly what your saying in "lessor speed".
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee W
    I am unsure on this, nothing can move faster than light... That is the view of almost every scientist in the world (apart from tachyons but they are only theoretical and do not physically exist.) But if the gravity of something such as a black hole is so large it can pull light in and hold it their my thought is wouldn’t the closer light got to the black hole the faster it would go due to the force of gravity pulling on the photon?
    gravity has no effect on anything w/o mass. energy and the photon are said to have 0 mass. even the effects are limited by distance. other energy from BH is said to reach our instruments w/o any apparent problem. since light is nothing but an energy with certain qualities, these qualities never existed (at the time) or changed in frequencies and/or wavelengths, prior to emission.

    yes, most agree its going to be very hard to get mass as we understand it to move faster then light. again however this does not explain why energy is limited or incapable of C+. many in science, do think there MAY be something or many things that already exist at C+, which we obviously cant see or understand.
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  16. #15  
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    not really many think that. they came up with the tachyon wich would work if possible but it would travel backward throu time.

    but there is a way to travel FTL without moving
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Jackson, the faster you move the slower time passes for you relevant to an independant observer. If you could travel as fast as a photon you would experience no time, a photon therefore does not decay in our time.

    It seems logical to me therefore that travelling faster than light would send you back in time, but only to the point where you exceeded it, this means effectively, at the instant your speed rises you go back to a lesser speed, this instant would be within 1 planck time, the smallest division.

    Exceeding light speed is a no-no for you, me, the cat and the photon.
    Tachyons are hyperthetical unproven particles thought to travel faster than light. I am sceptical but open minded as to whether they actually 'exist'.
    the cat, you and me are mass, which is said gains additional mass near C. our barrier then is the gained mass. energy is massless, can gain nothing, cares nothing about time, but is somehow said to have a barrier. the probable answer is in the velocity attainable in mass, which is the source of all energy, but no one seems to understand why.
    e= m x c2
    m= e/c2

    Energy and mass are a same thing. If you got energy then you got mass.

    If you want to look for a interesting story on it, look for the case on the Mercury precession. Put in short, rough terms: Mercury was bieng "delayed" in its orbit. Accounted the mass of the Sun and the mass of Mercury, it was impossible to udnerstand why tis orbit was nto what it should. Then enter Einstein, they calculate the energy being emitted by the Sun, the mass it represents, and Mercury's orbit makes all sense. Energy=mass.
    “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” -Charles Darwin
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  18. #17  
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    yes energy = mass but only particles with no RESTMASS can go at the speed of light. only 2 particles fits it
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  19. #18  
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    That's odd Zelos, I thought there were more than two photons, substantially more in fact...
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    That's odd Zelos, I thought there were more than two photons, substantially more in fact...
    dont be silly megabrain
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  21. #20  
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    mea culpe, I'll consider meself told orf.
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