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Thread: Would it be smart...

  1. #1 Would it be smart... 
    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
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    To keep satellites in orbit around other planets and moons we are interested in?
    If I heard correctly, we have several floating around Mars but what about Jupiter and Saturn and Europa and titan and all of the other moons and planets we are interested in? Kinda like a security is camera if you will.
    this way when we want to gather Data and what not instead of planning a mission that will take years to build and execute we'd already have a representative there that could gather what we want.

    the reason I ask is based on the Jupiter Red spot shrinking thread. Didn't we crash a satellite or a probe of some kind into Jupiter when we explored titan... Wouldn't have been smarter to keep that thing in orbit around Jupiter That way can keep a closer eye on the planet. Or would the radiation coming off those planets give something like that a limited life?


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  3. #2  
    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
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    Was is it not even smart to ask?


    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    ▼▼ dn ʎɐʍ sıɥʇ ▼▼ RedPanda's Avatar
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    I guess it all comes down to money.
    I bet that if people had the money and manpower they would put satellites all over our solar system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Didn't we crash a satellite or a probe of some kind into Jupiter when we explored titan... Wouldn't have been smarter to keep that thing in orbit around Jupiter That way can keep a closer eye on the planet.
    But then NASA wouldn't have learned anything about Titan. It's probably a trade-off. One of these days . . . .

    Titan (moon) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chucknorium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Didn't we crash a satellite or a probe of some kind into Jupiter when we explored titan... Wouldn't have been smarter to keep that thing in orbit around Jupiter That way can keep a closer eye on the planet.
    But then NASA wouldn't have learned anything about Titan. It's probably a trade-off. One of these days . . . .

    Titan (moon) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    No, no, we had already gotten the info from Titan this was an additional satellite/probe that they sent into Jupiter ending the mission. Wouldn't it have smart to keep that thing around Jupiter rather than destroying it with its journey into the planet?
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chucknorium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Didn't we crash a satellite or a probe of some kind into Jupiter when we explored titan... Wouldn't have been smarter to keep that thing in orbit around Jupiter That way can keep a closer eye on the planet.
    But then NASA wouldn't have learned anything about Titan. It's probably a trade-off. One of these days . . . .

    Titan (moon) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    No, no, we had already gotten the info from Titan this was an additional satellite/probe that they sent into Jupiter ending the mission. Wouldn't it have smart to keep that thing around Jupiter rather than destroying it with its journey into the planet?
    I don't know. You might be right. I'm not that familiar with the mission. Maybe they only had so much money to fund the thing and had to ditch it to get on with other missions. Just a WAG though. I'll look some more tomorrow . . . .
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    It wasn't Cassini Huygens it was the Galileo that was crashed into Jupiter and Cassini was crashed into Saturn. I got my missions confused but my point still stands... why not let those probes stay in orbit around those planets.


    As a bonus, where can I find (do they exist), pictures of Saturn/Jupiter from the probes as they descended into their death? It seems all I can find is pics of the planets from space not from within the atmosphere.
    Last edited by grmpysmrf; May 18th, 2014 at 03:17 AM.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Our current state of the art satelites are not general purpose enough to make leaving one in orbit around a planet a worth while notion. They just do what they are designed to do not a different job that we happen to need years later. They are special purpose machines rather than general purpose robots. If we had general purpose space robots having them on sentinel post throughout the solar system would be prudent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    As a bonus, where can I find (do they exist), pictures of Saturn/Jupiter from the probes as they descended into their death? It seems all I can find is pics of the planets from space not from within the atmosphere.
    Huygens probe landing video simulated from enhanced photos:
    NASA - Titan Descent Data Movie with Bells and Whistles - Movie

    Surface of one of Saturn's moons, Titan, from the American lander, Huygens:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Huygens_surface_color.jpg


    Surface of Venus from the Soviet lander, Venera 13:
    http://mentallandscape.com/C_Venera_Perspective.jpg

    And not sure what you consider a satellite, but there are probes currently orbiting Mars, Saturn, Mercury and Venus (as well as the Moon, although obviously not a planet).
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustinLG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    As a bonus, where can I find (do they exist), pictures of Saturn/Jupiter from the probes as they descended into their death? It seems all I can find is pics of the planets from space not from within the atmosphere.
    Huygens probe landing video simulated from enhanced photos:
    NASA - Titan Descent Data Movie with Bells and Whistles - Movie

    Surface of one of Saturn's moons, Titan, from the American lander, Huygens:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Huygens_surface_color.jpg


    Surface of Venus from the Soviet lander, Venera 13:
    http://mentallandscape.com/C_Venera_Perspective.jpg

    And not sure what you consider a satellite, but there are probes currently orbiting Mars, Saturn, Mercury and Venus (as well as the Moon, although obviously not a planet).
    Those are great. I'd seen the Titan and Venus JPG before. never the movie that was great. but really what I was after was the inside of Jupiter like a picture of the horizon, as a probe is descending to it's certain doom. do we actually know what it looks like once we break into Jupiter's or Saturn's atmosphere? are there Pictures?

    You answered my question about probes. I knew(or at least thought I knew) we (by "We" I mean NASA and the ESA) had a few around Mars but I didn't know we had some around the Moon, Mercury, Venus, and Saturn. the only two I knew of were destroyed into Jupiter and Saturn. (Cassini and Galileo) But why around Mercury and Venus? is their weather more interesting than the multiple weather systems on the Gas giants? Also, do the rock planets give off radiation like the Gas Giants?
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    but really what I was after was the inside of Jupiter like a picture of the horizon, as a probe is descending to it's certain doom. do we actually know what it looks like once we break into Jupiter's or Saturn's atmosphere? are there Pictures?

    You answered my question about probes. I knew(or at least thought I knew) we (by "We" I mean NASA and the ESA) had a few around Mars but I didn't know we had some around the Moon, Mercury, Venus, and Saturn. the only two I knew of were destroyed into Jupiter and Saturn. (Cassini and Galileo) But why around Mercury and Venus? is their weather more interesting than the multiple weather systems on the Gas giants? Also, do the rock planets give off radiation like the Gas Giants?
    The Cassini probe is still in orbit around Saturn and is still transmitting science. At this time, it's expected to continue it's mission until 2017. They actually considered re-directing the Cassini probe to Uranus, however it would take approximately 20 years of travel to get to Uranus from it's current orbit around Saturn.

    I don't believe it's possible to acquire a picture of a horizon/surface on a gas giant (Saturn, Jupiter, Uranus or Neptune). As far as I was concerned most of their "surfaces" are either gaseous or liquid. Some suspect the cores of these planets may consist of rock & ice, but that's the core, not the "surface". The bigger issue though is getting a lander to survive several factors including a high-velocity entry, high temperatures, high levels of radiation, and high atmospheric pressures. When a probe/lander travels at supersonic speeds through an atmosphere as thick as a gas giant's it creates a significant amount of friction, which in turn creates heat. The extreme temperatures inside of a gas giant also pose a problem to today's technology (5,000°C inside Neptune, even though the outer atmosphere is colder than -200°). Radiation levels mess with the equipment on probes/satellites. For example, it can create "noise" in imaging equipment, it can cause bias in scientific experiments/instruments and cause current leakages. The pressures experienced in some of these planets is beyond imaginable. Again, for example, the Galileo descent module (made of aluminum and titanium) was completely liquified and vaporized with in 7 hours of it entering Jupiter's atmosphere due to the combination of pressure and temperature.

    Galileo was purposely set on a collision course with Jupiter for a couple reasons. It's scientific instruments had been pretty worn out from the radiation exposure, it was running out of fuel and it was not sterilized before leaving earth. They did not want to risk contaminating any of the moons, specifically Europa, which is a candidate for potentially harbouring, or being able to harbour, life.

    The JUNO space probe is currently en route to Jupiter and has a scheduled orbital insertion the summer of 2015.

    This may help. Here's a list of all active space probes, as well as some that are on their way to their destination (ref. Wikipedia):
    List of active Solar System probes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Being a huge space nerd, I'm super excited for New Horizon's fly-by of Pluto next year. Pretty amazing that we'll finally get some decent resolution photos of the surface, as well as of the moons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    But why around Mercury and Venus? is their weather more interesting than the multiple weather systems on the Gas giants? Also, do the rock planets give off radiation like the Gas Giants?
    Sorry missed these.

    I know rocky planets emit thermal radiation. That's about as far as my knowledge on that subject goes.

    As for Mercury, the MESSENGER mission is studying it's chemical composition, geology and magnetic field. The Venus Express is researching Venus' cloud conditions and atmosphere. Scientists believe studying these things will give us a better understanding of Earth's climate as well as give insight into how the universe was created.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustinLG View Post
    Again, for example, the Galileo descent module (made of aluminum and titanium) was completely liquified and vaporized with in 7 hours of it entering Jupiter's atmosphere due to the combination of pressure and temperature.
    Right, but in the 7 hours it took to liquefy in the atmosphere were there any pictures taken? I know there is no place to land on a Gas giant. I wouldn't think we couldn't get a probe to the core. I just want to know if there are pictures from inside the planet's atmosphere as the probe was descending. I suppose I misspoke when I said "horizon" I just meant from the inside of Jupiter as in the "sky/'air'" around the probe.
    OR were there pictures taken but they are not view-able because it looks like a picture of fog based on the all the exotic clouds or pictures were taken but not view-able because of the radiation created too much "noise."

    On side note, YaY Europa!!!!! We can't get there fast enough as far as I'm concerned and I'm really disappointed we chose Mars rather than Europa to invest all our time and money in first.
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    I am not 100%, however my assumption would be that there wouldn't even be a camera outfitted on the descent module to save on fuel, electricity, weight, etc. simply for the fact like you stated that it would simply look like us taking a picture inside of either heavy fog, or a cloud. I suspect the optics in a camera or imager would be destroyed fairly quickly being exposed to the kind of heat experienced inside a gas giant's atmosphere. I could be wrong though, maybe there are methods of shielding components to keep them safe. I know gas giants generally emit more heat then they receive from the sun. I believe actually if Jupiter was 15 times larger it could actually start fusing hydrogen and helium and theoretically become a sun. Something close to that effect lol...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustinLG View Post
    I am not 100%, however my assumption would be that there wouldn't even be a camera outfitted on the descent module to save on fuel, electricity, weight, etc. simply for the fact like you stated that it would simply look like us taking a picture inside of either heavy fog, or a cloud. I suspect the optics in a camera or imager would be destroyed fairly quickly being exposed to the kind of heat experienced inside a gas giant's atmosphere. I could be wrong though, maybe there are methods of shielding components to keep them safe. I know gas giants generally emit more heat then they receive from the sun. I believe actually if Jupiter was 15 times larger it could actually start fusing hydrogen and helium and theoretically become a sun. Something close to that effect lol...
    Thank you for your time and answers. They were quite helpful.
    "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
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    Any time! I've been dying to find somewhere I can talk space with others as my girlfriend does not care to hear anything about it lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sealeaf View Post
    Our current state of the art satellites are not general purpose enough to make leaving one in orbit around a planet a worth while notion. They just do what they are designed to do not a different job that we happen to need years later.
    I agree. Just a guess myself, but it seems that a new theory drives the need for a new metric, and thus, the need for a new probe. That is, a different range within the EM spectrum, sensitivity to a different subatomic particle, increased sensitivity, higher resolution, etc.
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