Thread: 2012 a possible exclusion of life.

Hello, i am very interested in cosmology, space and time. Recently while procceding with my individual studies, I noticed a document, a report on a disaster which could possibly take place in 2012. The reverse movement of South and North poles, which could cause a wipeout of life, and forcing us to move planet or underground. Is this actually going to happen or will it not? and what are options are for this.

The poles have reversed many times in the history of the earth, so far as I know none of these are coincident with evidence of mass extinctions.

There have been many reversals of polarity in the past an they don't seem to be associated with extinction events.

http://www.geomag.bgs.ac.uk/reversals.html

edit-sniped(and almost word for word too)

Perhaps, but were talking a major reverse, a total which lasts 11 years. If we think about it, it can hugly effect us, no magnetism for 11 years, weak human immune systems, radiation increase, cancer, all these possible causes. The time is what we should be concerned. But what are our options if this does occur.

Originally Posted by genius

Perhaps, but were talking a major reverse, a total which lasts 11 years. If we think about it, it can hugly effect us, no magnetism for 11 years, weak human immune systems, radiation increase, cancer, all these possible causes. The time is what we should be concerned. But what are our options if this does occur.

From the link article:

"Is there any danger to life?
Almost certainly not. The Earth's magnetic field is contained within a region of space, known as the magnetosphere, by the action of the solar wind. The magnetosphere deflects many, but not all, of the high-energy particles that flow from the Sun in the solar wind and from other sources in the galaxy. Sometimes the Sun is particularly active, for example when there are many sunspots, and it may send clouds of high-energy particles in the direction of the Earth. During such solar 'flares' and 'coronal mass ejections', astronauts in Earth orbit may need extra shelter to avoid higher doses of radiation. Therefore we know that the Earth's magnetic field offers only some, rather than complete, resistance to particle radiation from space. Indeed high-energy particles can actually be accelerated within the magnetosphere.
At the Earth's surface, the atmosphere acts as an extra blanket to stop all but the most energetic of the solar and galactic radiation. In the absence of a magnetic field, the atmosphere would still stop most of the radiation. Indeed the atmosphere shields us from high-energy radiation as effectively as a concrete layer some 13 feet thick.

Human beings have been on the Earth for a number of million years, during which there have been many reversals, and there is no obvious correlation between human development and reversals. Similarly, reversal patterns do not match patterns in species extinction during geological history.

Some animals, such as pigeons and whales, may use the Earth's magnetic field for direction finding. Assuming that a reversal takes a number of thousand years, that is, over many generations of each species, each animal may well adapt to the changing magnetic environment, or develop different methods of navigation."

There doesn't seem to be a major risk with pole reversal.

Pole reversal, may i put it, i was mistaken, what i have read, includes the sun, shuttng down are magnestism, we have none atall.

Originally Posted by genius

Pole reversal, may i put it, i was mistaken, what i have read, includes the sun, shuttng down are magnestism, we have none atall.

When the poles reverse the magnetic field loses strength over a long period of time then disappears for a while before reappearing in a reversed state. The magnetic field can also flucuate during reversal, there are lava flows in Hawaii that show the Earths' magnetic field has switched polarity several times while the flow was cooling. Meaning it flipped back and forth during a several day period.

Originally Posted by genius

Pole reversal, may i put it, i was mistaken, what i have read, includes the sun, shuttng down are magnestism, we have none atall.

If it dissappeared for twenty years, there would still not be a mass extinction, remember the apollo missions? something like 8 days outside the earth's protective shield, and no significant long term affects.

In a word. No.

The magnetic poles are moving all the time, magnetic north is currently over Quebec in Canada. A full polarity flip is well overdue, but then again, so is the next ice-age : - )

A polarity flip could effect the birds, BUT, our eyes are convex lense, we actually SEE things upside down for the first couple of days of our life, until the brain automatically reshuffles it and we see, upright.

If you wear a pair of convex glasses now, you will see things upside down for a day or two if you constanatly wear them. then within a couple of days the brain will suddenly reshuffle and you will see things the right way again. But be warmed, take them off now and you will once again see things upside down and it will take another day or two for the brain to reshuffle the information.

Maybe birds have this kind of mechanism in the magnetic field sensory organs ?

I wonder, would there be a large scale EMP if the poles flip ? If there is then we could have some serious problems.

I also wonder, if I have a compass and im standing directly no magnetic north, would the compass needle spin or would it just point to every direction as being "south". ?

Presuming this will happen, and to such an extent that many species do become extinct, I think are main concern world be food supply rather than anything else.

There would be NO mass extinctions.

Originally Posted by leohopkins

A polarity flip could effect the birds, BUT, our eyes are convex lense, we actually SEE things upside down for the first couple of days of our life, until the brain automatically reshuffles it and we see, upright.

That's cos it gets tired of falling over and/or bashing into things! :wink:

I dont think there will be mass extinction (but there could be some exctintion since we are currently destroying habitat regardless of magnetic poles)


According to a report I saw, when the change in polarity will occur there will be bubles of opposite magnetic polarity in each emisphere, so you will have a few north poles (bubbles) in the southern emisphere and a few south poles in the northern emisphere, until things stabilized and you get one main south pole in the north and one main north pole in the south. Apparently these magnetic poles might potentially slowly move like clouds. This would make navigation based on compas unreliable for a while and cause many Auroras in various places instead of being in the poles.

Because a magnetic pole is also a funel with a hole in the middle, when such magnetic funnel becomes align with the sun closer to the equator the area below the hole in the magnetic field might be expose to high radiation(auroras will be seen as a lot of the radiation will be buffered by the atmosphere)

hey, where did you read that there was a possible polar flip in 2012? I didn't think one would happen in my lifetime! Also are you sure the magnetic north pole is in quebec? Because I didn't think that's where the Auroras were. Also I live in Ontario and my compass' don't point to Quebec. Anyways, what causes polar flips?

" Anyways, what causes polar flips?"

good question, I dont know myself

maybe it has something to do with the motion of the magma (some of it iron?) below the crust.
As the sun rotates, various portions of the plasma rotates at different speeds, the difference in speed
appears greatest when comparing the sun's equator to its poles.

It might be the same for earth except that the outer crust is more or less rigid and so rotates at a relative constant pace.
Imagine you have an outer crust in a glass and water in the middle and turn the water within, the water will flow faster than the outer crust but will move it along, as the water's rotation slows down it might move more slowly than the crust at which point the crust might drag the water and spin it. I wonder if the magnetic field is a result of the magma moving faster or slower than the crust?
If you say Im shooting this out of my a$$ you are right, I dont know Im just babbling, I look forward to the real explanation...

this is as bout a good an explanation as your gonna get. Scientists are unsure as to why, but they have some theroms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flippin...magnetic_poles

The Wika link supplied highlights that these polarity reversals are by no means predictable. There is evidence though to suggest that a reversal is overdue in a geological time frame that probably won't be in our lifetime.
the thing to consider with a reversal is the effects of the solar wind on our climate and enviroment and atmosphere.

The solar wind will slowly strip away our atmosphere and cause problems with communications and cause significant changes to our weather patterns because of the buffetting of the upper atmosphere from particles travelling as fast as 1000000 miles/hr. The duration of of the transition period will determine the extent of damage/change done.

The evidence as others have rightly pointed out indicates that mass extinctions do not occur as result and the earth survives the brief barrage.
The effect on human life as we know it now, well that is an unknown, but considering how unstable we are on a whole the effects for us could be dire.

If the poles flip, will we start calling the north pole the south pole and vice versa ? ?

Just a wondering, like the time when I wondered whether ot nt the film makers 20th Century Fox would change their name to 21st Century fox after the millenium. they didnt.

No I suggest we will continue to call the current north as north simply because most people do not move around constantly using a compass - since old fogies are so reluctant to change they will certainly continue with today's north as north.

So in 2012 are we going to start teaching kids, Shredded - Eat - Never - Wheat.

As a geologist I would take any such document that predicts a date and rip it and put it in the recycle bin. A study could indicate 'a possible' reversal of polarity in the next few thousand years...any more precise than that and it's sensation nonsense.

If the poles flip, will we start calling the north pole the south pole and vice versa ? ?

We can simply flip maps by 180 degrees

Originally Posted by icewendigo

If the poles flip, will we start calling the north pole the south pole and vice versa ? ?

We can simply flip maps by 180 degrees

THe down side it I see yet more delays into getting to work...

Would this affect the GPS?

the reason the 2012 date is associated with the pole shift/mass extinction date, is because the Mayan / Aztec civilizations of old Mexico produced a calendar that ends on 22nd December 2012.

I've been reading up on this - not especially the pole-shift, but the Mayan calendar/civilization over the last week, and they based their calendar (allegedly) on many different cycles of the sun - its magnetic fields, sunspots, rotations etc.

The Maya believed that 4 'ages' had passed and they were essentially living in the 5th age. At the end of each age, the world was partially destroyed and man had to re-find himself

For example, one age ends in extreme winds that destroy everything and man turned himself in 'metaphorically speaking' monkeys and held on to the trees while the 'age' was destroyed, another age ended in flood, when man turned himself in fish...

They set the 5th age to end in 2012, and they must have been pretty convinced by this as they produced a very complicated mathmatical calendar that runs out in the year 2012. they didn't feel the need to go past this date, so you might assume, they saw it as the final 'destruction'

New agers and the like have picked up on this and naturally some of them have over-reacted and the doommongers predict the end of the world.

If anything, it is likely to be the suns magnetic reversal - that the maya knew about - which is pretty impressive for a civilization that ended 1000 years ago - that causes us problems, because if that reverses - being such a massive body, it is likely to cause us severe problems on Earth.

P-mantor; No, GPS satellites and recievers are independant of earth's magnetic field. However, if during the flip in a period that the magnetic field is at its weakest, if there is major solar activity then high energy particles could in theory knacker up our satellites, affecting GPS.

But I very much doubt that would happen.

For me I don't see any reason why a magnetic reversal should in any way effect biological life.

The major issues would mostly be with Aviation Transport, Radio communications and entertainment, and various other longrange radio-or-magnetic compass based navigation such as ships and military etc.

If the atmosphere is relegated to the only blocking force for energetic subatomic particles, then that would spell an effective temporary end for usable longrange High Frequency radio, which could be an issue for aircraft over remote areas such as the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans which rely on HF radios for long-distance communication. (for instance, aircraft over the centre of the mid-atlantic (ie from Spain to South America routes) are talking on radio to Portugal, using the propensity of HF frequencys to reflect off the atmosphere and back to the recievers, allowing "Over the horizon" radio voice communications. With no Magnetic lines shielding the atmosphere from energetic particles, these frequencys would be effectivley blocked by high levels of static.

Indeed, even currently they are quite 'noisy' frequencys due to interference from sources beyond earth (mostly the sun). To listen to real time what this sounds like, you can look at this live feed of Gander Oceanic Radio (Aircraft Flight Service Station Frequency).
http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/hf_atlantic.m3u
If one was to remove this capacity from aviation technology, it would likley have an effect.

Probably the worst effect however would be the inability to find "North" on a compass, requiring a complete reliance on things such as INS and GPS without the backup of Magnetic Compass.

Currently Aviation is most likley to be the industry most effected by any loss of Magnetic field, with degredation in performance of Navigation, Communication - and not to mention being so high up (30,000 - 45,000ft) removes the thickest part of the atmosphere from the available shielding effect, possibly requiring some extra protection in the aircraft itself. (Lead/Gold laced glass perhaps like they have on the Space Shuttle etc.)

Originally Posted by musicalaviator

For me I don't see any reason why a magnetic reversal should in any way effect biological life.

Quite, but as I said, when the poles start a full reversal the earth's magnetic field becomes weakened and no longer has the functional advantage of protecting biological life from high energy cosmic particles. The atmosphere is however a second shield against these but our magnetic field is our first line of defence.

Furthermore, birds have sensory organs in their heads that can detect magnetic field lines; this is how they navigate using the earth's magnetic field. So yes, a full reversal WOULD affect some species of birds thus biological life.

I have said it before I'll say it again, the magnetosphere concentrates [a proportion of] the high energy particles into an area around the poles, as these pasrticles interact with the upper atmosphere they produce the aurora (lights) - now remember what I said "concentrated" - are the forests of northern canada bereft of life? - no.

The actual effect of the loss of the magnetosphere would be a gradual erosion of the atmosphere, and [possibly] some 'super heating' of the upper atmosphere causing an expansion of those layers (in the 1989? solar storm this caused a satellite in low orbit to lose some altutude through 'drag'.

Google "Magnetosphere NASA" for more info.