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Thread: Inflation of the universe & the expansion of space.

  1. #1 Inflation of the universe & the expansion of space. 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
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    In the inflatory model of the universe we assume that space is expanding; does this mean that the space between the electrons and the nucleus of the atom is also expanding ?


    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    NO - if this were expanding - us as well - we would not realise it, and there would be no 'reference' to judge it by.


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  4. #3 That me be so......... 
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    That may be so, that is until the universe is expanding at such a rate that the strong nuclear force is no longer strong enough to cope with the rate of expansion and quarks can no longer be bonded.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    Well don't take my word for it, read up on the subject and judge for yourself. After all if you are not prepared to accept the answers given here, why ask ?
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  6. #5 Re: That me be so......... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins
    That may be so, that is until the universe is expanding at such a rate that the strong nuclear force is no longer strong enough to cope with the rate of expansion and quarks can no longer be bonded.
    That actually seems like the right idea to me - I don't see why the space at a subatomic level wouldn't be expanding as well, it's just that the strong local forces are more than enough to keep matter from expanding apart. If the expansion of space were fast enough, it seems to me it would cause atoms to fly apart.
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  7. #6 Yes...... 
    Forum Professor leohopkins's Avatar
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    Yes, thats what i thought, and as dark energy is ever increasing the universes rate of expansion, something tells me that may happen.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    even the hardiest of the BB theorist have given up on C+ speed for expansion. SS generally suggest no expansion. all we understand with any degree of probability suggest all is is orbit to something but just what in picture this size is not known. there is a lot of empty space. our little cluster of universe may be in an obit with something not even visible, for example.

    BB thought suggest sub atomic parts became atoms from cooling or heat would cause a collapse. speed then at C is explained to have infinite mass whatever that could be to an atom. frankly in my limited world, i doubt most of it...
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  9. #8 Hi Jackson......... 
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    Hi Jackson,

    I understand very little of what you just said; although I know very little too. I am wondering, if space is expanding at an ever faster rate but for some reason the space within the atom isnt then could this mean possibly the reason for this is that space is expanding due to the constant production of photons. Photons have no mass and do not experience time, therefore cannot "die" however far they travel, yet however small and massless, they must occupy SOME space, therefore the more that are produced the more space is needed for them; thus the expansion ?

    Of course a lot of the universe's light is absorbed by matter but nowhere near even most of it.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  10. #9 Re: Inflation of the universe & the expansion of space. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins
    In the inflatory model of the universe we assume that space is expanding; does this mean that the space between the electrons and the nucleus of the atom is also expanding ?
    Inflation refers to the early rapid expansion of the universe, which is thought to have been beyond lightspeed. Although the expansion of the universe is accelerating it's doubtful it will ever reach this rate again.

    My suspicion is that as the universe expands it will reach a limit where it comes into contact with another brane triggering another BB type event.

    Probably be on a monday...LOL
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    The current view of the space expansion by the BB'ers is that it is happening in space only between and outside the gravitational structures that are all being contained by their gravity IMHO.
    Real science is objective, not subjective
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  12. #11 Re: Hi Jackson......... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by leohopkins
    Hi Jackson,

    I understand very little of what you just said; although I know very little too. I am wondering, if space is expanding at an ever faster rate but for some reason the space within the atom isn't then could this mean possibly the reason for this is that space is expanding due to the constant production of photons. Photons have no mass and do not experience time, therefore cannot "die" however far they travel, yet however small and massless, they must occupy SOME space, therefore the more that are produced the more space is needed for them; thus the expansion ?

    Of course a lot of the universe's light is absorbed by matter but nowhere near even most of it.
    all energy produced, by all the kinds of matter that is, create no mass. it would take mass to cause (in my opinion) a reason for expansion. photons are the means this energy travels.

    the earth receives this energy 24/7/365 from many directions and all forms of frequencies and wavelengths. the planet gains no mass from all the eons this has been occurring. the little of this energy we visually see reflections of and products of come from the sun. any energy used to produce an item (tree or an orange) all results of other matter becoming something else.

    the space with in an atom can be corrupted, but with out a means to do this, it has no desire or way to alter itself. the same is true for our atmosphere which has no desire to leave and wonder off into space. this to me is reason enough to assume all that is with in the universe should do much the same. the BB theory does give cause, if expansion is true, but with out this cause BBT could not exist.
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  13. #12 Re: Hi Jackson......... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33

    all energy produced, by all the kinds of matter that is, create no mass. it would take mass to cause (in my opinion) a reason for expansion. photons are the means this energy travels.
    Yes I can understand what you are saying, but I wouldnt say that it takes mass to cause expansion. I'd say it takes size.

    For instance.............. say you put a HUGE baloon in your bedroom and you blow it up, it will soon fill up the room and the room will need to expand in order to cope with it.

    Now.......half fill your room with sand; the sand that you have put there has a lot more mass than the balloon did, but hasnt caused an expansion of your room because there is simply not enought of it there.

    So i'd say size and sheer quantity, not mass cause expansion.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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    note that you have added something to fit a scenario. all matter that makes up the universe is no doubt whats always been. percentage wise, even adding large amounts of dark matter, this fills far less than one percent of space.

    if at one point all this matter was mostly gas, it may have been a larger universe, but as matter we know formed the result should be a shrinking universe. i feel the matter/space racial changes but not to a degree where space/matter needs to move out wards at substantial speeds. it takes a reason, force or pulling action. we have no words to describe how this could be other then BBT. matter does move around, everything in space seems to move and at high speeds. much as your atoms or my atmosphere, no reason is inferred w/o cause to spill over.

    w/o getting into what is outside our universe, the energy waves created by the most distant matter no doubt do leave our perception of a universe, but create nothing or give no cause for matter to stay anyplace or go anyplace.
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    Each and every thing that has a mass, has a gravitational field, it's the same with electrons and the universe. The universe is expanding due to an imbalance between it's Gravity and it's outward preassure. So as the universe is expanding, the preassure is decreassing, therefore there less preassure trying to pull an atom apart in the expansion and as the charges in the atom are opposite, the electron should THEORETICALLY get closer the the nucleus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevyn
    Each and every thing that has a mass, has a gravitational field, it's the same with electrons and the universe. The universe is expanding due to an imbalance between it's Gravity and it's outward preassure. So as the universe is expanding, the preassure is decreassing, therefore there less preassure trying to pull an atom apart in the expansion and as the charges in the atom are opposite, the electron should THEORETICALLY get closer the the nucleus

    Why theoretically? - which theory, and where is the maths to back it up?
    If you are thinking of 'Boyles law' then I'd like to see how you have linked it to a finite but bounded concept.
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    ok then, just forget what i just said, it made sense when i was writing it but now... anyway. Think of it on a larger scale, The planets of the solar system orbit the sun much like the elctrons orbit the nucleus. The thing that keeps the planets from spining into the sun or out into open space is it's momentum, it's the same with an an electron, so as the universe is expanding and the distance between us and the sun is not. Then it shows that the expansion does not effect momentum and that the electron will stay the same distance from the nucleus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevyn
    Each and every thing that has a mass, has a gravitational field, it's the same with electrons and the universe. The universe is expanding due to an imbalance between it's Gravity and it's outward preassure. So as the universe is expanding, the preassure is decreassing, therefore there less preassure trying to pull an atom apart in the expansion and as the charges in the atom are opposite, the electron should THEORETICALLY get closer the the nucleus
    yes, everything with physical mass, is said to have its own gravity and based on the quantity of that mass. the effect of this is also limited to the total mass. a rock in your front yard the the largest star or even a black hole are limited in distance with any influence. the energy or massless entities, results meaningless.

    things under pressure do create energy, no question and energy is always away and without obstacles will travel or go forever. this however will not draw or pressure matter into following. if your thinking the universe is some how under a pressure, this indicates shrinking and against your thought. likewise the energy produced would effect nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevyn
    ok then, just forget what i just said, it made sense when i was writing it but now... anyway. Think of it on a larger scale, The planets of the solar system orbit the sun much like the elctrons orbit the nucleus. The thing that keeps the planets from spining into the sun or out into open space is it's momentum, it's the same with an an electron, so as the universe is expanding and the distance between us and the sun is not. Then it shows that the expansion does not effect momentum and that the electron will stay the same distance from the nucleus
    your having trouble with gravity, i think. this to me is also a problem to understand. as i understand it, if our sun last long enough everything will eventually fall into the sun, actually speeding up as the orbits lessons.

    i also understand the analogy of the atom and solar system, but they are not the same. even the Galaxy differ from the solar system and no doubt the universal formula will be different then the galaxy. personally feel in time another factor will evolve to give explanation to gravity.
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