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Thread: Before the bang

  1. #1 Before the bang 
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    What are your theories before the big bang? What do you think existed before it?

    I believe that maybe, just maybe that the single point before the bang occured could be point of singularity??? maybe we are inside of a blackhole or something???


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    Nothing zilch NO TIME no space no nothing, time started with the big gang, this is the first universe, It had to start somewhere - this is it the first ever universe.


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    lol Well what if some existed before this universe and then suddenly something huge happened that "destroyed" everything(including time and space) and then something happened to trigger the process of our space and time. Couldn't something like that happen?
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    No, our BB was, and is just one of many, IMHO!
    Black hole-BB-Black hole-BB :?
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    what does BB and IMHO mean?
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    IMO means it's his opinion. which means he's making it up with no evidence.

    BB means Big Bang by the look of it, and he thinks Black Holes have something to do with Big Bang aka "Start of space and time".

    It mythologises black holes, and ignores the new Hawking Radiation theory, and possibly promotes a misconception about big bangs, universe(s) and the definition of big bang, however it is a commonly made connection amongst people, so Im not going to blame it all on fledermaus because that would be silly.
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    big bang and in my humble opinion. in my very humble opinion IMVHO:
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    You are so kind to me musical aviator which is a rare thing on this forum :-D :-D
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    Well I'v heard the connection made before many times (universe inside a black hole/trans dimentional bla bla)

    Not much science to back it up, but then also a hard thing to disprove too (apart from the hawking radiation idea which suggests black holes eventually disapear)

    It's also a tough question to answer what actions caused the big bang, because we can't answer it using a definition inside our own universe. The big bang theory is really only there because it explains why the universe is expanding - and incidently also helps define the fact that there was a definitave "Beginning" of the universe (by assuming that the universe's expansion doesn't 'go backwards' as time goes forwards, and by assuming the universe cannot be smaller than zero (be it zero metres in diameter etc).

    So far, both these assumptions seem to work and are fairly foolproof. Anything that happened "outside" our universe happens in a region where actual Time means something different (time can be effected by speed and distance... so imagine if the entire universe is 0mm in size - that means anything inside the universe is also 0mm in size and also exists everywhere in the universe at once.. meaning everything including time doesn't actually work properly).

    What happened "before" the big bang is still at this stage (and probably well into the future if not forever) the realm of speculation.

    I have so far not been convinced by any science based on explaining "pre-big-bang" that were based on hard evidence or observations. At best, this is the real of the mathematicians, at worst, random speculations. I invite other people to send links to scientific theories on the thought, cos I'd be happy to consider the thought myself. I am however unconvinced to any connections to black holes though now due to Hawking radiation, and the way of how black holes are made. Also the disturbing thought that if we are in a black hole, and we have possibly millions of black holes in our universe - if black holes are universes, do our black holes have millions of black holes inside them? :P Apart from the idea of how a universe can exist with only the amount of mass of a (even very large) star inside the entire universe.
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    There is no convincing evidence to support my position.

    My position is speculation, but not random speculation; it is speculation based on conclusions if find easier to accept than the singularity.

    My speculation is that the Big Bang came from a big crunch within a greater universe that has always existed, is infinite in space and energy/matter content, and is characterized by crunches and bangs occurring here and there, now and then as they always have and always will.

    Why do I say this is simplicity vs. the singularity? Because my interpretation of that singularity is that it must have been infinitely dense and I can’t get myself to agree that anything can be infinitely dense. It is easier for me to conclude that the universe is infinitely old, i.e. has always existed.

    Why else? Because my interpretation of that singularity is that it must have been of zero volume and yet contained all of the energy/matter of our visible universe, a theory that I can’t get myself to conclude. It is easier for me to conclude that the universe is infinitely large, i.e. space is endless.

    Why else? It is the convenience that the singularity brings to the realm of cosmology and the science of our visible universe. Though mathematically unsound, the singularity brushes away any speculation of a “before” the big bang by simply saying there was no “before”, and if you want to talk about it, prove it first. It can’t be proven so conveniently it is not productive to speculate about.

    And finally, it is that in big bang theory, space-time did not exist before the bang, but was created by the big bang, and in addition, created along with the big bang was an internal pressure strong enough to push the infinitely dense zero volume contents of the big bang into inflationary expansion.

    That inflation caused the universe to expand exponentially to speeds way greater than the speed of light to account for the causal connection between the big bang and the background radiation we observe. It is easier for me to conclude that there was a huge arena of low energy density space already existing and surrounding the nearly infinitely dense big crunch, and when the crunch banged, it released a huge reserve of high density energy into the low energy density surrounding space, an it was the pulling from outside of the big bang energy ball by that "vacuum energy" that caused the inflationary epoch that lasted picoseconds.

    This lower energy density space was “left behind” by the big crunch as the crunch accumulated from a huge arena of space within the greater universe (ISU; Infinite Spongy Universe) before the big bang.

    So that is my answer the original post,” What are your theories before the big bang? What do you think existed before it?
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    I have an ambivient relationship with this topic. On the one hand, asking what came before the existence of our universe is really interesting and awe inspiriing. On the other hand, its very frustrating to know that the answer to this question has the real possibility of never being answered.

    Here is a little tid-bit of mine: I know that our experiences of the world and the universe tell us that something cannot come from nothing. That everything that [is] must have come from something else that [is]. That's fine and dandy until we ask what can before the universe. What is or was outside of this unvierse could be without time. If there is no time outside of our universe, what [is] does not need a beginning or perhaps nothing can [be] because there is not time. The implications of this I will leave to you all. However, if we are dealing with an explaination that does not deal with time, the explaination of what [is] outside this universe is probably beyond our comprehension.
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    I do not think time existed before the big bang. I do not think anything existed before the big bang, it was the start of everything. If the universe ever collapses then I think time will as well. Forever Time only exists in this universe. If you could travel back, I think you could travel forever and not quite reach the bang itself, in short it may be 15Byrs old as we perceive time now, but it has existed forever, ie since the begining of time.
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  14. #13 Re: Before the bang 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Time Master
    What are your theories before the big bang? What do you think existed before it?

    I believe that maybe, just maybe that the single point before the bang occured could be point of singularity??? maybe we are inside of a blackhole or something???
    as i understand black hole, it is the product of matter condensing to a point of that matters extreme possible gravity. in theory this could be anything and the end size the primary difference. a block of silver (100 oz) would condense to a unit about a million times less than an electron of one cell of the original matter. our star to about a that of a small rock. the BH is a single process of the death of that unit and this will dissolve. the size of the BH seems to determine this length of existence as a BH and thus, the giant stars (25+ times our) in this form last for some time. even these vaporise. the principles for matters action prior to a BB could indicate a possible connection, since some do think this unit was a result of matters consolidation and this unit somehow took in all matter time space and then boom, so to speak. what should be a rather large unit, the process could be the evaporation of that unit, the dust and debris expected from a BH afterward, being what was sent out into this vacuum, originally created as was swallowed into that unit. it is not likely we are part of a BH, in any scenario and there are scenarios for "something", but that a different subject.

    none of this is my personal opinion, but it gives some substance to your comment. BH's do play a role in and consistent with "is as always was", since matter to reform systems is produced and with a seemingly needed
    process to get older, less useful systems out of the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    I do not think time existed before the big bang. I do not think anything existed before the big bang, it was the start of everything. If the universe ever collapses then I think time will as well. Forever Time only exists in this universe. If you could travel back, I think you could travel forever and not quite reach the bang itself, in short it may be 15Byrs old as we perceive time now, but it has existed forever, ie since the begining of time.
    Could our universe be a universe within a universe? Since this topic calls for random and off the wall speculation, here's one:

    From atoms to planets, to solar systems to galaxies, there seems to be an observable similiarity: protons and neutrons have electrons revolve around them, planets have moons revolve around them, planets revolve around suns, solar systems revolve with other solar systems in a galaxy, and galaxies revolve around within the universe (perhaps arond a center? ). Taking this a step broader, maybe our universe is one of many universes that revolve around the center of something- maybe a larger universe.

    lol just thinking off the top of my head
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  16. #15  
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    Carl Sagan was a proponent of that as a possiblity, I have myself wondered if we might be an atom in someone's rotting underwear, but I doubt it. The planets are different sizes, the structure of the universe does not appear to be crystaline. It's all different sizes, the only similarity seems to be the spherical shape of things which finally made me think that 'super' or 'sub' universes might just be a load of balls! :wink:
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    well this get to the "other" rather quickly.

    we know only a fraction of what may be going on with in the atom. there are ways to determine atomic counts or the number of electrons. there is no reason to think this is all or that the total content of an atom is less complex, as say a universe.

    the universe, if you can assume was always as it is, (w/o BB, which only complicates, understanding) it is really not all that complicated and in general follows all the rules of our science. i like to say vibrant, self healing and to a degree organized.

    if you imagine a few trillion such units and get far enough away from the total, you could be looking at something like "dirty underwear" and the units that make this up are similar. the solar system has the perceived view of an atom, today but i would rather think the entire universe is more comparable to an entire atoms actual content.

    there are some impressive images of cells, that give what may be such a unit of atoms.
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  18. #17  
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    If you want to get down to the nuts and bolts of atoms, then sub atomic particles like Protons, then Quarks, then down to strings, and then beyond my guess is they will oneday be able to take one of these strings to pieces and find it is made out of nothing, then there will be no bits left to put it back together. Im not being frivolous, my guess is everthing is made out of nothing, and since there was nothing to start with we still have it all, but in a different form. And since nobody has yet come up with anything that is 'sub-string' or 'pre-big bang' and you asked what our own theories are that's what you get!

    So everybody get out those weird ideas and we will stitch them together and come up with a unified forum? as opposed to a unified fearum?
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    the reference was, solar system to atom and pretty much knew what his/her mind thought. didn't want to go beyond where i was and not comfortable with this subject matter to start with.

    Sagan, was not the only person of notoriety, to suggest such things. Roddenberry and most SF writers have. agree, this is not the correct forum, but suggest the question comes to the mind of everyone, when they first get into science and your first subject matter is not likely to be quantum physics. i would prefer to encourage participation and if to far out there, just ignore.

    there are likewise a good many people, who have no reason to wonder what was b4 BB, since BB is likely nonsense and they know whats been out there for untold eons.

    always enjoy your comments, but sometimes wonder if you lack tolerance or i am too judgmental.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kosta
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    I do not think time existed before the big bang. I do not think anything existed before the big bang, it was the start of everything. If the universe ever collapses then I think time will as well. Forever Time only exists in this universe. If you could travel back, I think you could travel forever and not quite reach the bang itself, in short it may be 15Byrs old as we perceive time now, but it has existed forever, ie since the begining of time.
    Could our universe be a universe within a universe? Since this topic calls for random and off the wall speculation, here's one:

    From atoms to planets, to solar systems to galaxies, there seems to be an observable similiarity: protons and neutrons have electrons revolve around them, planets have moons revolve around them, planets revolve around suns, solar systems revolve with other solar systems in a galaxy, and galaxies revolve around within the universe (perhaps arond a center? ). Taking this a step broader, maybe our universe is one of many universes that revolve around the center of something- maybe a larger universe.

    lol just thinking off the top of my head



    intresting thought and point. I've been thinking that too. I also been thinking that our universe is some video game that a 6 year old kid is playing and we are "part of his game". lol just thought I would bring this idea up.
    anyways back to the point. What our universe is in a blackhole? What if in some other universe, something big happened to suck in all the matters in "their" solar system and then after that, a big bang happened to create our universe. Or maybe before this universe, there was another universe but that go sucked up and the process started all over again with our universe?
    also, i've been thinking that is there a possibility that their was no begining and our universe has always been here and when our universe "dies" all matter will condense to create another big bang and this kind of process has been going on and there never was a begining to our formatioon of the universe?

    Sorry if this is kind of confusing. I had trouble putting my idea into words :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    the reference was, solar system to atom and pretty much knew what his/her mind thought. didn't want to go beyond where i was and not comfortable with this subject matter to start with.

    Sagan, was not the only person of notoriety, to suggest such things. Roddenberry and most SF writers have. agree, this is not the correct forum, but suggest the question comes to the mind of everyone, when they first get into science and your first subject matter is not likely to be quantum physics. i would prefer to encourage participation and if to far out there, just ignore.

    there are likewise a good many people, who have no reason to wonder what was b4 BB, since BB is likely nonsense and they know whats been out there for untold eons.

    always enjoy your comments, but sometimes wonder if you lack tolerance or i am too judgmental.
    It's not intolerance, I just forget the smiley's from time to time, as for the big bang and string theory, until it's all sorted out beyond any doubt, I don't think it's right to ignore anybody. If you put up a theory that goes against classical theory I'll tell you, and why.

    As far as I'm concerned when it comes to the universe if perfectly rational sober scientists can dream up worm holes (which started out as pure sci-fi) brane theory, multiverse etc then they are just as nuts as the rest of us!

    Of course it could be intolerance, but then I'm biased 8)

    Anyway's I come on here to talk to people not drive them away,
    Rgds, MB.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Time Master
    Quote Originally Posted by Kosta
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    I do not think time existed before the big bang. I do not think anything existed before the big bang, it was the start of everything. If the universe ever collapses then I think time will as well. Forever Time only exists in this universe. If you could travel back, I think you could travel forever and not quite reach the bang itself, in short it may be 15Byrs old as we perceive time now, but it has existed forever, ie since the begining of time.
    Could our universe be a universe within a universe? Since this topic calls for random and off the wall speculation, here's one:

    From atoms to planets, to solar systems to galaxies, there seems to be an observable similiarity: protons and neutrons have electrons revolve around them, planets have moons revolve around them, planets revolve around suns, solar systems revolve with other solar systems in a galaxy, and galaxies revolve around within the universe (perhaps arond a center? ). Taking this a step broader, maybe our universe is one of many universes that revolve around the center of something- maybe a larger universe.

    lol just thinking off the top of my head



    intresting thought and point. I've been thinking that too. I also been thinking that our universe is some video game that a 6 year old kid is playing and we are "part of his game". lol just thought I would bring this idea up.
    anyways back to the point. What our universe is in a blackhole? What if in some other universe, something big happened to suck in all the matters in "their" solar system and then after that, a big bang happened to create our universe. Or maybe before this universe, there was another universe but that go sucked up and the process started all over again with our universe?
    also, i've been thinking that is there a possibility that their was no begining and our universe has always been here and when our universe "dies" all matter will condense to create another big bang and this kind of process has been going on and there never was a begining to our formatioon of the universe?

    Sorry if this is kind of confusing. I had trouble putting my idea into words :P
    I think that each hypothetical you stated has real potential to be true. Any question pertaining to matters outside of the universe are most likely TOTALLY outside of our principles of understanding. This makes perfect sense, considering that ALL we know is based upon our observation of this working universe. There are no logical or physical restrictions on what could be outside of this universe as far as we know. On top of that, we hardly know anything about the universe we currently exist in now.
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  23. #22  
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    Maybe I should have left it at "I do not think"
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