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Thread: Is the HUDF the center of Our Universe?

  1. #1 Is the HUDF the center of Our Universe? 
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    I don´t have clear if the HUDF is the center of Our Universe, were the Big-bang starts.

    If so, what could be viewed by the Hubble telescope focus towards the opposite direction of the HUDF?

    Would focus out of our universe? .

    Could then see other universes outside our own?


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  3. #2  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    It is not the center of the universe because there is no center. If you look in the other direction it looks just the same.

    You are however (because of the time it takes light to get here) looking at the universe as it appeared billions of years ago.

    You cannot look beyond the period of "recombination" because for the first ~380,000 years the universe was opaque: it was so dense that photons could only travel a short distance before being absorbed again.


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  4. #3  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Ok...thanks

    Is it theoreticaly impossible to see other universes outside through a telescope (hubble?)? ...And Why?

    - Because the waves from the outside world can not enter ours?
    - Because they are to far away, and the waves don´t arrive?
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  5. #4  
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    No, we can't even see the edge of ours, since it has expanded so much that light from far away hasn't had (and never will have) enough time to reach us.
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  6. #5  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    But if the universe outside is 100,000 million light years but was born before (eg 200,000 years), it will reach the light, because there will be waves started issuing before.
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    We can see back about 13.4 billion years. The Universe has expanded to an estimated 68 billion light years in diameter by now, and is continuing to expand, so any light being emitted beyond 13.7 billion light years from us can never reach us.
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  8. #7  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    We can see back about 13.4 billion years. The Universe has expanded to an estimated 68 billion light years in diameter by now, and is continuing to expand, so any light being emitted beyond 13.7 billion light years from us can never reach us.
    Ok...you are talking about light from Our Universe, but I mean light or other wave from universes outside of ours.

    If there are an universe outside of ours, and it is 100,000 million light years far away from us, but was born before (eg 200,000 millions years), the light or wave (running at light speed) from this universe will reach to us, because these waves started issuing before (200.000 millions year ago). (??)


    Other question is, why the space can grow quiker than the speed of light?

    If HUDF is not the center of Our Universe, why there are there this cluster of galaxies so young ?...it seems that in this direction has to be de singularity of the Big-Bang (?)
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    We can see back about 13.4 billion years. The Universe has expanded to an estimated 68 billion light years in diameter by now, and is continuing to expand, so any light being emitted beyond 13.7 billion light years from us can never reach us.
    Ok...you are talking about light from Our Universe, but I mean light or other wave from universes outside of ours.

    If there are an universe outside of ours, and it is 100,000 million light years far away from us, but was born before (eg 200,000 millions years), the light or wave (running at light speed) from this universe will reach to us, because these waves started issuing before (200.000 millions year ago). (??)
    why the space can grow quiker than the speed of light?

    If HUDF is not the center of Our Universe, why there are there this cluster of galaxies so young ?...it seems that in this direction has to be de singularity of the Big-Bang (?)
    Everything we can see or sence in any way is part of our universe. Light is part of our universe. Other universes are a mathmatical possiblity not an observed reality. They may exist but nothing we can observe indicates that they do exist.
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  10. #9  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    If there are an universe outside of ours, and it is 100,000 million light years far away from us, but was born before (eg 200,000 millions years), the light or wave (running at light speed) from this universe will reach to us, because these waves started issuing before (200.000 millions year ago). (??)
    (You should probably change your millions to be billions to be vaguely realistic.)
    Those other universe would be moving away so fast that the light would never reach us. There is also the practical problem that the early universe was opaque so any external light from before that time would not be seen.

    Other question is, why the space can grow quiker than the speed of light?
    Expansion isn't measured as a speed but as a rate of increase in size (or scale) so this description (which is commonly used) isn't very accurate.

    Think of it this way, imagine a series of points spaced out by 1 metre.

    A . . . . B . . . C . . . D . . .

    Now, if in 1 second space expands by 10% then the points will 1.1 metres apart. If we are at A we will see B move away at 0.1m/s. We will see C move away at 0.2m/s. And so one. There will be some point sufficiently far way that we will see it moving away at c and beyond that points moving away faster than c. From their perspective we will be moving away from them at the same speed. But in fact none of us are "moving at c" it is just the space between us increasing at a constant rate.

    If HUDF is not the center of Our Universe, why there are there this cluster of galaxies so young ?...it seems that in this direction has to be de singularity of the Big-Bang (?)
    Things look younger because the light took X billion years to get here so we are effectively looking into the past. The big bang "happened" everywhere. I wasn't an explosion that happened "over there"; it was the expansion of all space (including the space we are currently in).
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    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sealeaf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    We can see back about 13.4 billion years. The Universe has expanded to an estimated 68 billion light years in diameter by now, and is continuing to expand, so any light being emitted beyond 13.7 billion light years from us can never reach us.
    Ok...you are talking about light from Our Universe, but I mean light or other wave from universes outside of ours.

    If there are an universe outside of ours, and it is 100,000 million light years far away from us, but was born before (eg 200,000 millions years), the light or wave (running at light speed) from this universe will reach to us, because these waves started issuing before (200.000 millions year ago). (??)
    why the space can grow quiker than the speed of light?

    If HUDF is not the center of Our Universe, why there are there this cluster of galaxies so young ?...it seems that in this direction has to be de singularity of the Big-Bang (?)
    Everything we can see or sence in any way is part of our universe. Light is part of our universe. Other universes are a mathmatical possiblity not an observed reality. They may exist but nothing we can observe indicates that they do exist.
    It´s OK, but if they exist...then yes there is the possibility of seeing them (!!?)

    That is important, because some day some body could see some different light or wave from the space...that could be other universe...and we could have the evidence that they exist (!!?)
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    If there are an universe outside of ours, and it is 100,000 million light years far away from us, but was born before (eg 200,000 millions years), the light or wave (running at light speed) from this universe will reach to us, because these waves started issuing before (200.000 millions year ago). (??)
    (You should probably change your millions to be billions to be vaguely realistic.)
    Those other universe would be moving away so fast that the light would never reach us. There is also the practical problem that the early universe was opaque so any external light from before that time would not be seen.

    Other question is, why the space can grow quiker than the speed of light?
    Expansion isn't measured as a speed but as a rate of increase in size (or scale) so this description (which is commonly used) isn't very accurate.

    Think of it this way, imagine a series of points spaced out by 1 metre.

    A . . . . B . . . C . . . D . . .

    Now, if in 1 second space expands by 10% then the points will 1.1 metres apart. If we are at A we will see B move away at 0.1m/s. We will see C move away at 0.2m/s. And so one. There will be some point sufficiently far way that we will see it moving away at c and beyond that points moving away faster than c. From their perspective we will be moving away from them at the same speed. But in fact none of us are "moving at c" it is just the space between us increasing at a constant rate.

    If HUDF is not the center of Our Universe, why there are there this cluster of galaxies so young ?...it seems that in this direction has to be de singularity of the Big-Bang (?)
    Things look younger because the light took X billion years to get here so we are effectively looking into the past. The big bang "happened" everywhere. I wasn't an explosion that happened "over there"; it was the expansion of all space (including the space we are currently in).
    OK...thanks...very clear answers.

    But also they are very sad...because, according to your explanations (current science state of the art), we can never observe the universe outside our own....It is like some body tell us that it is not possible to see any thing outside our galaxy...
    Last edited by dapifo; June 14th, 2012 at 09:17 AM.
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  13. #12  
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    Except we can see things outside our galaxy. But from our point of view, anything outside our Universe just doesn't exist.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    Except we can see things outside our galaxy. But from our point of view, anything outside our Universe just doesn't exist.
    Well, I cannot prove it, but I´m sure that there are millions of universes similar to our one outside there...and that they belong to other higher entity...Larger Universe.

    Till now, we heve not be able to see, show, reach or prove that any of the four known dimensions XYZ and Time) has a limit (??)
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  15. #14  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    But also they are very sad...because, according to your explanations (current science state of the art), we can never observe the universe outside our own....
    But if we could see something outside our "universe" then wouldn't we just extend "universe" to include them - after all universe means everything there is.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    But also they are very sad...because, according to your explanations (current science state of the art), we can never observe the universe outside our own....
    But if we could see something outside our "universe" then wouldn't we just extend "universe" to include them - after all universe means everything there is.
    Also ATOM means "non divisible" or "without parts"....and you can see...electrón, protón,...quarks...gluon...boson...."Gigs"...sting s....(....etc...?).... "NO COMENT"
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  17. #16  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    But also they are very sad...because, according to your explanations (current science state of the art), we can never observe the universe outside our own....
    But if we could see something outside our "universe" then wouldn't we just extend "universe" to include them - after all universe means everything there is.
    Also ATOM means "non divisible" or "without parts"....and you can see...electrón, protón,...quarks...gluon...boson...."Gigs"...sting s....(....?)...."NON COMENT"
    I'm not quite sure what point you are making. The meaning of the word "atom" changed from the original sense when more evidence was found.

    At one time, it was thought that our galaxy was the universe. Then we found there were other galaxies and so the idea of "universe" was expanded. No reason it couldn't happen again.

    (Incidentally, etymology is rarely a good guide to the meaning of a word. In fact, I would be tempted to say it is never a good guide.)
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  18. #17  
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    Like maybe its growing or something to that effect
    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    We can see back about 13.4 billion years. The Universe has expanded to an estimated 68 billion light years in diameter by now, and is continuing to expand, so any light being emitted beyond 13.7 billion light years from us can never reach us.
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  19. #18  
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    Of course it is. That's what I said. Have you been asleep or something?
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    But also they are very sad...because, according to your explanations (current science state of the art), we can never observe the universe outside our own....
    But if we could see something outside our "universe" then wouldn't we just extend "universe" to include them - after all universe means everything there is.
    Also ATOM means "non divisible" or "without parts"....and you can see...electrón, protón,...quarks...gluon...boson...."Gigs"...sting s....(....?)...."NON COMENT"
    I'm not quite sure what point you are making. The meaning of the word "atom" changed from the original sense when more evidence was found.

    At one time, it was thought that our galaxy was the universe. Then we found there were other galaxies and so the idea of "universe" was expanded. No reason it couldn't happen again.

    (Incidentally, etymology is rarely a good guide to the meaning of a word. In fact, I would be tempted to say it is never a good guide.)
    Take a look to the following info (in the forum KURZWEIL):

    Stephen Feeney at University College London and colleagues say they’ve found tentative evidence of four collisions with other universes in the form of circular patterns in the cosmic microwave background.In their model of the universe, called “eternal inflation,” the universe we see is merely a bubble in a much larger cosmos. This cosmos is filled with other bubbles, all of which are other universes where the laws of physics may be dramatically different from ours.
    http://www.kurzweilai.net/astronomers-find-evidence-of-other-universes-in-cosmic-microwave-background
    http://www.universetoday.com/87927/t...servationally/
    Last edited by dapifo; June 17th, 2012 at 07:48 PM.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    But also they are very sad...because, according to your explanations (current science state of the art), we can never observe the universe outside our own....
    But if we could see something outside our "universe" then wouldn't we just extend "universe" to include them - after all universe means everything there is.
    Also ATOM means "non divisible" or "without parts"....and you can see...electrón, protón,...quarks...gluon...boson...."Gigs"...sting s....(....?)...."NON COMENT"
    I'm not quite sure what point you are making. The meaning of the word "atom" changed from the original sense when more evidence was found.

    At one time, it was thought that our galaxy was the universe. Then we found there were other galaxies and so the idea of "universe" was expanded. No reason it couldn't happen again.

    (Incidentally, etymology is rarely a good guide to the meaning of a word. In fact, I would be tempted to say it is never a good guide.)
    Take a look to the following info (in the forum KURZWEIL):

    Stephen Feeney at University College London and colleagues say they’ve found tentative evidence of four collisions with other universes in the form of circular patterns in the cosmic microwave background.In their model of the universe, called “eternal inflation,” the universe we see is merely a bubble in a much larger cosmos. This cosmos is filled with other bubbles, all of which are other universes where the laws of physics may be dramatically different from ours.
    http://www.kurzweilai.net/astronomers-find-evidence-of-other-universes-in-cosmic-microwave-background
    Testing the Multiverse… Observationally!
    You just looked at the headline and didn't bother to read the paper.

    [1012.1995] First Observational Tests of Eternal Inflation

    The eternal inflation scenario predicts that our observable universe resides inside a single bubble embedded in a vast inflating multiverse. We present the first observational tests of eternal inflation, performing a search for cosmological signatures of collisions with other bubble universes in cosmic microwave background data from the WMAP satellite. We conclude that the WMAP 7-year data do not warrant augmenting LCDM with bubble collisions
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  22. #21  
    Universe Supervisor dapifo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    But also they are very sad...because, according to your explanations (current science state of the art), we can never observe the universe outside our own....
    But if we could see something outside our "universe" then wouldn't we just extend "universe" to include them - after all universe means everything there is.
    Also ATOM means "non divisible" or "without parts"....and you can see...electrón, protón,...quarks...gluon...boson...."Gigs"...sting s....(....?)...."NON COMENT"
    I'm not quite sure what point you are making. The meaning of the word "atom" changed from the original sense when more evidence was found.

    At one time, it was thought that our galaxy was the universe. Then we found there were other galaxies and so the idea of "universe" was expanded. No reason it couldn't happen again.

    (Incidentally, etymology is rarely a good guide to the meaning of a word. In fact, I would be tempted to say it is never a good guide.)
    Take a look to the following info (in the forum KURZWEIL):

    Stephen Feeney at University College London and colleagues say they’ve found tentative evidence of four collisions with other universes in the form of circular patterns in the cosmic microwave background.In their model of the universe, called “eternal inflation,” the universe we see is merely a bubble in a much larger cosmos. This cosmos is filled with other bubbles, all of which are other universes where the laws of physics may be dramatically different from ours.
    http://www.kurzweilai.net/astronomers-find-evidence-of-other-universes-in-cosmic-microwave-background
    Testing the Multiverse… Observationally!
    You just looked at the headline and didn't bother to read the paper.

    [1012.1995] First Observational Tests of Eternal Inflation

    The eternal inflation scenario predicts that our observable universe resides inside a single bubble embedded in a vast inflating multiverse. We present the first observational tests of eternal inflation, performing a search for cosmological signatures of collisions with other bubble universes in cosmic microwave background data from the WMAP satellite. We conclude that the WMAP 7-year data do not warrant augmenting LCDM with bubble collisions
    Well I understand that it is an Hypothesis that is still in study : "We conclude that the WMAP 7-year data do not warrant augmenting LCDM with bubble collisions, constraining the average number of detectable bubble collisions on the full sky to be less than 1.6 at 68% CL. Data from the Planck satellite can be used to more definitively test the bubble collision hypothesis."
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  23. #22 Expansion of space 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dapifo View Post
    If there are an universe outside of ours, and it is 100,000 million light years far away from us, but was born before (eg 200,000 millions years), the light or wave (running at light speed) from this universe will reach to us, because these waves started issuing before (200.000 millions year ago). (??)
    (You should probably change your millions to be billions to be vaguely realistic.)
    Those other universe would be moving away so fast that the light would never reach us. There is also the practical problem that the early universe was opaque so any external light from before that time would not be seen.

    Other question is, why the space can grow quiker than the speed of light?
    Expansion isn't measured as a speed but as a rate of increase in size (or scale) so this description (which is commonly used) isn't very accurate.

    Think of it this way, imagine a series of points spaced out by 1 metre.

    A . . . . B . . . C . . . D . . .

    Now, if in 1 second space expands by 10% then the points will 1.1 metres apart. If we are at A we will see B move away at 0.1m/s. We will see C move away at 0.2m/s. And so one. There will be some point sufficiently far way that we will see it moving away at c and beyond that points moving away faster than c. From their perspective we will be moving away from them at the same speed. But in fact none of us are "moving at c" it is just the space between us increasing at a constant rate.

    If HUDF is not the center of Our Universe, why there are there this cluster of galaxies so young ?...it seems that in this direction has to be de singularity of the Big-Bang (?)
    Things look younger because the light took X billion years to get here so we are effectively looking into the past. The big bang "happened" everywhere. I wasn't an explosion that happened "over there"; it was the expansion of all space (including the space we are currently in).
    I have never really understood the expansion of space before your simple and lucid explanation. Thank you.
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