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Thread: Suns commit suicide. Why.

  1. #1 Suns commit suicide. Why. 
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    Suns ( sun-stars) like our own Sun, are programmed to give off heat by consuming itself. Apparently all Stars have this inbuilt pathway to self destruction. Seems pointless and stupid to me. In a mathamatical and physics creation phase, in a conceptional sense, it is a waste of resources to keep a principle of destruction as your main datum. Surely Formulars that define existance as a mathamatical reality have to have a purpose, a useful reason and part of an equation that will lead to a greator whole? Nearly all students of Astronomy and Cosmolgy seem quite happy to go along with the status quo regards the currently concieved Law of Physics as applied to the knowable Cosmos. Something is wrong here. This Cosmos, and obviously all the infinite other Cosmos that currently we cannot relate to, is part of an ongoing birth and rebirth process, or in other words, the re-arranging of particles of matter, something like the purpose of spermitozzia in the creation of another Galaxy. Or the birth of a new star. There is no end to what exists, only expansion and contraction. The Source for the above hypothesis is my thinking process operating within my complex cerebellium built on the principles of the known and unknown Cosmos....westwind.


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  3. #2  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    What has science been able to tell us about the workings of the universe and the motivations behind these workings? Here is the executive summary:

    Shit happens.


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  4. #3  
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    You seem to be assuming that there is meaning to cosmic events when all the evidence of science is that there is no meaning or dicernable plan.
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  5. #4  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
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    Something is wrong here.
    Why do you think the universe needs to pay any attention to what you think makes sense or not?
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    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by westwind View Post
    Suns ( sun-stars) like our own Sun, are programmed to give off heat by consuming itself. Apparently all Stars have this inbuilt pathway to self destruction. Seems pointless and stupid to me. In a mathamatical and physics creation phase, in a conceptional sense, it is a waste of resources to keep a principle of destruction as your main datum. Surely Formulars that define existance as a mathamatical reality have to have a purpose, a useful reason and part of an equation that will lead to a greator whole? Nearly all students of Astronomy and Cosmolgy seem quite happy to go along with the status quo regards the currently concieved Law of Physics as applied to the knowable Cosmos. Something is wrong here. This Cosmos, and obviously all the infinite other Cosmos that currently we cannot relate to, is part of an ongoing birth and rebirth process, or in other words, the re-arranging of particles of matter, something like the purpose of spermitozzia in the creation of another Galaxy. Or the birth of a new star. There is no end to what exists, only expansion and contraction. The Source for the above hypothesis is my thinking process operating within my complex cerebellium built on the principles of the known and unknown Cosmos....westwind.
    My friend, the lifecycles of stars, specifically their deaths, play a crucial role in the formation of heavy elements within the universe. One could argue that, without stars dying, we might not be here today to discuss this question. Also, the material ejected from a dying star can form the building blocks for new star formation, so it's all good so far as I am concerned
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  7. #6  
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    If my car runs out of gas, has it committed suicide?
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  8. #7  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    For AlexG. When your car was concieved, designed, and then built it was on the understanding that an intelligent owner/driver would ensure that a propulsion power source would be provided when and where necessary. You have, by letting your car run out of petrol/gas murdered your car. westwind.
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  9. #8  
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    Not really, it just went to sleep. Fill it up again, and it works just fine.
    Technically, a star could do that if you refueld it, but since stars deplte all the fuel in the neighborhood when they form, there's no filling station around.
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  10. #9  
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    The Sun and “Sun-like stars” aren’t going to die. Stars of one to ten times the mass of the Sun become red giants and then contract to form white dwarf stars. As white dwarf stars they will continue to give off heat through convection until their protons decay. If by suicide, you mean a supernova event, this only happens with very large, and very rare, stars.
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  11. #10  
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    @ westwind, maybe a philosophy forum would be better for you?
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  12. #11  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    For HexHammer. You are right of course. Problem being, as I see it, this is a Science Forum. Now, again as I see it, Science does not equate with Philosophy. Science is the hands on practical application, physically prepared to prove or disprove a theory. Philosophy is a mind game, a thinking and imagining process rather than constructive thinking with a definite goal in sight. I f I Threaded in Philosophy Forum I would never get to be a Forum Junior, or the next step up the ladder. I am constructivly ambitious, due to an insignificant childhood and a less than glorious middle age, my hope lies in the future. Now, if all the Moderators and the Professors from Science Forum feel they could do without my strange Threads and Posts than I certainly would have to re-consider my situation. I would soon be forgotten in the Philosophy Forum, even you, HexHammer would forget me, and then what use would I be? Please reply. westwind.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by westwind View Post
    For HexHammer. You are right of course. Problem being, as I see it, this is a Science Forum. Now, again as I see it, Science does not equate with Philosophy. Science is the hands on practical application, physically prepared to prove or disprove a theory. Philosophy is a mind game, a thinking and imagining process rather than constructive thinking with a definite goal in sight. I f I Threaded in Philosophy Forum I would never get to be a Forum Junior, or the next step up the ladder. I am constructivly ambitious, due to an insignificant childhood and a less than glorious middle age, my hope lies in the future. Now, if all the Moderators and the Professors from Science Forum feel they could do without my strange Threads and Posts than I certainly would have to re-consider my situation. I would soon be forgotten in the Philosophy Forum, even you, HexHammer would forget me, and then what use would I be? Please reply. westwind.
    Hi westwind... Nice to meet you.

    I've also had the problem of taking a "philosophical" concept and applying it to scientific reasoning... It's actually one of the reasons that brought me here.

    I agree with the concept; I also don't think that energy is intended to waste itself. It's interesting to see that you also view physics of the universe as though part of a collective process. For an analogy, you could view stars as furnaces for making different materials that will serve as more complex functions than just steal alone can. I would say that in a sense the universe is conscious... Alive. Before that concept is criticised - define consciousness. It's difficult to systemise nature, I like to view all collections of processes in nature a bit like the neurons firing within our brain. My understanding is that nature is inherent in itself, of itself.

    But philosophically speaking, your concept would lead to the question of why the universe exists.
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  14. #13  
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    Creatures made of complex chemical compounds can only exist to contemplate these issues in universes where some stars do explode to provide the complex chemicals.
    I believe in nothing, but trust gravity to hold me down and the electromagnetic force to stop me falling through
    Physics is the search for the best model not the truth, as only mythical beings know that.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by westwind View Post
    For HexHammer. You are right of course. Problem being, as I see it, this is a Science Forum. Now, again as I see it, Science does not equate with Philosophy. Science is the hands on practical application, physically prepared to prove or disprove a theory. Philosophy is a mind game, a thinking and imagining process rather than constructive thinking with a definite goal in sight. I f I Threaded in Philosophy Forum I would never get to be a Forum Junior, or the next step up the ladder. I am constructivly ambitious, due to an insignificant childhood and a less than glorious middle age, my hope lies in the future. Now, if all the Moderators and the Professors from Science Forum feel they could do without my strange Threads and Posts than I certainly would have to re-consider my situation. I would soon be forgotten in the Philosophy Forum, even you, HexHammer would forget me, and then what use would I be? Please reply. westwind.
    Please forgive me when I fail to see any relevance in your post. What has this to do with science? We'r discussing science here, not some melodramatic self navel gazing.
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  16. #15  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    No, HexHammer, we are discussing Philosophy here, and anyway, I cannot see my navel. westwind.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by westwind View Post
    I cannot see my navel.
    Time to hit the gym then, wouldn't you think ?
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  18. #17  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    "Suns ( sun-stars) like our own Sun, are programmed to give off heat by consuming itself. Apparently all Stars have this inbuilt pathway to self destruction. Seems pointless and stupid to me."
    Why? Heres the way I see it at this point. We have a bias of "because" and "purpose" misleading us, and understandably see the universe from our point of view, in a similar way primitive humans had a personification bias projecting human concepts on to natural phenomenon (thor the god of thunder, hes angry, "who" created the universe, rain is there because it helps grow crop, etc). We say to kids the preying mantis is camouflaged "because" it helps it survive, which spins the concept of purpose in what is a property. A preying mantis is not camouflaged because it knows it helps it survive, it happens to not get eaten by the properties of its color and the environment, that's the way it is. The sun isnt saying "Hey Its great my light is providing day light and warmth for those humans on that third planet, thats why I do it you know and thats why Im here", it is what it is.

    If there would be countless universe with various properties while unable to detect each other, in all the universes if there were a million versions where life-like molecular interaction is not possible, no one there would be saying 'hey its bad we cant exist, whats the purpose of that?' because there would be no one to wonder how come life doesnt exist, and in those where life would exist but in which no intelligence would occur there would be no one either wondering about anything, just bacteria or what not, growing and interacting with the environment. Only where and when intelligence develops would there be lifeforms wondering about the universe and why its like that, and how incredible it is that the universe happens to supports life and how stupid it is that this or that property is pointless, and how incredible it is that they are in a region where life is possible like its a blessing.

    On an altenate earth people are amazed and saying how incredible that the planet they happen to live on has just the exact right set of properties to make life possible! What a magical blessing! (when its no surprise that life doesnt occur everywhere else that is not suitable for it, if life is unlikely to appear on mercury its not a miracle that lifeforms awake(become aware) on a planet where life is possible. If theres alternate humans living on a chlorine gas planet for whom our earth's atmosphere is letal, they're wondering how lucky they are that the planet happens to support their chlorine breathing, its a gift from the gods that made the planet exactly the way it needs to be for "them" to live ! (which to me is amusing)

    For things in our universe to have a purpose our universe would need to be a simulation, but what ever made that simulation would have to exist in a reality without a purpose itself(which doesnt prevent sentient being within to attribute and project a purpose on to various properties), so we can skip the middle man and consider our universe has no purpose, its more simple.
    Last edited by icewendigo; April 4th, 2012 at 09:02 AM.
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  19. #18  
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    I think you made a good point, but I wish it had been worded better so it could be understood without waving cobwebs off one's face.
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  20. #19  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Humans are accustomed to having a purpose. Animals are accustomed to having purpose. That purpose is readily summed up as "to survive and then to procreate". Organisms who lack such goal oriented behaviour tend not to survive or procreate.

    With such an outlook embedded in our psyche it is difficult to avoid thinking that the universe and all its component parts must also have a purpose. This is an unecessary complication and leads to questions that lack, not substance, but meaning. Such as : "Why do stars commit suicide?"

    I think that is a reasonable executive summary of Ice Wendigo's point.
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  21. #20  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    Sorry and thanks for the input, I'll strive to make future posts shorter. (I was about to write 'shorter and less redundant', but the redundant reference was sort or redundant itself, but writing this defeats the purpose, so Ill have to try even harder next time)
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  22. #21  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    I'm goint to take that as an affirmation that I captured your intention reasonably accurately. This is good news, since it means I should keep my day job.
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