Thread: Europa Jupiter's Ice Moon Vs 2 miles of Antarctic ice

A team of British engineers set off to begin a journey to a lake hidden beneath nearly 2 miles of Antarctic ice,
to find signs of life . If they find any thing there. What will be the chances of finding life,​ 7 miles under Jupiter's Moon Europa. I wonder

What lake are you speaking about? This sounds like Lake Vostok, but that is a Russian program, so what are you speaking of?

I suggest the odds of finding life on Europa (or rather in Europa) are independent of what may or may not exist, or be discovered in Lake Vostok, or any other Antarctic lake.

where did you get the 7 mile figure for the ice thickness on Europa?

Lake Ellsworth is at 78°58′4.44″S, 90°34′27.56″W

The Ice thickness on Europa is not important, could be 100 miles thick, What I was getting at is. If there is liquid water under the Ice at Lake Ellsworth, and if life can survive in that sort of enviroment.
What are the chances of life in any similar environment.

Thank you for the reference to Lake Ellsworth. Some informative links, such as this or this would have been helpful.

My point remains. I do not know informed individual who seriously doubts the presence of life in subglacial lakes such as Lake Ellsworth. I do not know of any informed individual who doutbst the possibility of life beneath the surface ice of Europa. The question surrounds the probablity of life arising on Europa in the first place (or reaching there via pan spermia). This probablity will not be affected in any way by the presence or absence of life in Lake Ellsworth.

The question of possible extraterrestrial life on Europa is an important and fascinating one. The complexity and variety of subglacial ecologies could have a bearing on our understanding of the Europan biosphere, if one exists. But - and this was my principal point and so I repeat it - the probability of that life does not seem to me to be influenced by what exists in Lake Ellsworth.

I agree, influenced No. but the fact if life can survive in conditions like lake Ellsworth for thousands of year. who knows what could happen elsewhere.

Well, no one knows, since we haven't been there. But you have yet to provide any evidence that life exists there either, so it is pure speculation. Since we know life formed on earth, we can therefore extrapolate that it can survive in many harsh environments here, and find it.

But there isn't one iota of evidence for life anywhere other than on earth, however likely we might or might not think it will be.

I totally agree, its the anticipation, and the wait for the findings, that must come first. The point is. If they did find life in such conditions, it must make you wonder about Europa.

Originally Posted by Genesis

I totally agree, its the anticipation, and the wait for the findings, that must come first. The point is. If they did find life in such conditions, it must make you wonder about Europa.

Genesis, you are still not getting it. We already wonder about life on Europa. We fully expect - certainly I fully expect - for life to be found in most subglacial lakes. Finding life in Lake Ellsworth will not have any influence whatsoever on how scientists view the possibility of life on Europa. None. Nada. Zilch. Apparently it would influence you. That's fine. I'm OK with that, but I think you are making an error by extending that view to some generic standpoint that encompasses the world of science.

Not at all I only stated I Wonder

Well, ok, I've learned about Lake Ellsworth.

I don't think any scientist would be surprised to find life there, perhaps lots of it. Finding colonies of crabs, tube worms and the like, is less likely but perhaps the most exciting possibility. Something like the vent life under Lake Baikal. Genesis do the science teams suspect any hydrothermal vents there?

There must be something there as its not going to be cheap

Originally Posted by Genesis

There must be something there as its not going to be cheap

Genesis, I don't want to appear as if I am stalking you, or picking on you, but really! That is simply a totally illogical statement. The decision to invest the money in the investigation is based upon the expectation that there will be something interesting there. That decision in no way effects the probability that there is something there. It concerns me that you make these unwarranted connections between things. In Euclidian space parallel lines do not meet: stop trying to make them.

Well my Dear Stalker may be they just want to waste a lot of money looking for nothing.
How silly of me a should of known better.

His simple point is thinking there might be something interesting doesn't mean or affect whether there will be. It's an important distinction because it helps inoculate scientist from seeing things that aren't there or drawing conclusions without sufficient evidence. It helps make science more objective than common experience.

I am most apologetic He (J.G) is of course correct, my choice of words were poor.

The fact they are spending money to investigate the lake affects the probability that they may have in their possession evidence which we may not have, which tells them the money will not be wasted. Remember, with probability it is not necessary for causality to be part of our observation. The decision to investigate does not cause evidence unknown to us to be present. However, it does indicate that it is likely that it is present.

I'm curious whether life on Europa would have evolved to survive on Sunlight from the Sun, or maybe instead to live off the strong radiation emitted by Jupiter's radiation belt?


Jupiter

Originally Posted by kojax

I'm curious whether life on Europa would have evolved to survive on Sunlight from the Sun, or maybe instead to live off the strong radiation emitted by Jupiter's radiation belt?


Jupiter

Or are simple chemosynthetic autotrophs, requiring no radiation.

Or creatures of pure energy vacationing from the planet PXR7841.

I don't think the money spent has any bearing on what someone expects. I would tend to think it's another find, like Vostok, thus someone wants to be the first regardless of what is found.

my wish is that science weren't cost-dependened, so that it wouldn't depend on money to reach its full potential without having to make a choice.

Hell, I wish beer wasn't cost dependant, but stuff costs money

Originally Posted by curious mind

my wish is that science weren't cost-dependened, so that it wouldn't depend on money to reach its full potential without having to make a choice.

It doesn't have to be. I work independent and fund my own research with my other developed skills. Of course I'm not buying an ocean liner or 747 either. I can afford glass ware, magnet wire, computers and every couple years I buy a new lawnmower and I'll have my home paid off next year. Can't complain.

Of course there's life under the ice on Europa. Why wouldn't there be? Why wouldn't there be life in Vostok? To heckity boo with what the Brits are doing .. they're fifty years behind the Russians.

Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile

To heckity boo with what the Brits are doing .. they're fifty years behind the Russians.

Indeed. I understand the Scots have been a nation of drunken mysogynists for several centuries longer than the Russians.