Notices
Results 1 to 24 of 24
Like Tree4Likes
  • 1 Post By John Galt
  • 1 Post By Lynx_Fox
  • 1 Post By Genesis
  • 1 Post By kojax

Thread: Europa Jupiter's Ice Moon Vs 2 miles of Antarctic ice

  1. #1 Europa Jupiter's Ice Moon Vs 2 miles of Antarctic ice 
    SEEKER Genesis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    52 degrees North
    Posts
    159
    A team of British engineers set off to begin a journey to a lake hidden beneath nearly 2 miles of Antarctic ice,
    to find signs of life . If they find any thing there. What will be the chances of finding life, 7 miles under Jupiter's Moon Europa. I wonder


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    What lake are you speaking about? This sounds like Lake Vostok, but that is a Russian program, so what are you speaking of?

    I suggest the odds of finding life on Europa (or rather in Europa) are independent of what may or may not exist, or be discovered in Lake Vostok, or any other Antarctic lake.

    where did you get the 7 mile figure for the ice thickness on Europa?


    MeteorWayne likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    SEEKER Genesis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    52 degrees North
    Posts
    159
    Lake Ellsworth is at 78°58′4.44″S, 90°34′27.56″W

    The Ice thickness on Europa is not important, could be 100 miles thick, What I was getting at is. If there is liquid water under the Ice at Lake Ellsworth, and if life can survive in that sort of enviroment.
    What are the chances of life in any similar environment.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Thank you for the reference to Lake Ellsworth. Some informative links, such as this or this would have been helpful.

    My point remains. I do not know informed individual who seriously doubts the presence of life in subglacial lakes such as Lake Ellsworth. I do not know of any informed individual who doutbst the possibility of life beneath the surface ice of Europa. The question surrounds the probablity of life arising on Europa in the first place (or reaching there via pan spermia). This probablity will not be affected in any way by the presence or absence of life in Lake Ellsworth.

    The question of possible extraterrestrial life on Europa is an important and fascinating one. The complexity and variety of subglacial ecologies could have a bearing on our understanding of the Europan biosphere, if one exists. But - and this was my principal point and so I repeat it - the probability of that life does not seem to me to be influenced by what exists in Lake Ellsworth.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    SEEKER Genesis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    52 degrees North
    Posts
    159
    I agree, influenced No. but the fact if life can survive in conditions like lake Ellsworth for thousands of year. who knows what could happen elsewhere.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Comet Dust Collector Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    2,848
    Well, no one knows, since we haven't been there. But you have yet to provide any evidence that life exists there either, so it is pure speculation. Since we know life formed on earth, we can therefore extrapolate that it can survive in many harsh environments here, and find it.

    But there isn't one iota of evidence for life anywhere other than on earth, however likely we might or might not think it will be.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    SEEKER Genesis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    52 degrees North
    Posts
    159
    I totally agree, its the anticipation, and the wait for the findings, that must come first. The point is. If they did find life in such conditions, it must make you wonder about Europa.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    I totally agree, its the anticipation, and the wait for the findings, that must come first. The point is. If they did find life in such conditions, it must make you wonder about Europa.
    Genesis, you are still not getting it. We already wonder about life on Europa. We fully expect - certainly I fully expect - for life to be found in most subglacial lakes. Finding life in Lake Ellsworth will not have any influence whatsoever on how scientists view the possibility of life on Europa. None. Nada. Zilch. Apparently it would influence you. That's fine. I'm OK with that, but I think you are making an error by extending that view to some generic standpoint that encompasses the world of science.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    SEEKER Genesis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    52 degrees North
    Posts
    159
    Not at all I only stated I Wonder
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Well, ok, I've learned about Lake Ellsworth.

    I don't think any scientist would be surprised to find life there, perhaps lots of it. Finding colonies of crabs, tube worms and the like, is less likely but perhaps the most exciting possibility. Something like the vent life under
    Lake Baikal. Genesis do the science teams suspect any hydrothermal vents there?
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    SEEKER Genesis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    52 degrees North
    Posts
    159
    There must be something there as its not going to be cheap
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    There must be something there as its not going to be cheap
    Genesis, I don't want to appear as if I am stalking you, or picking on you, but really! That is simply a totally illogical statement. The decision to invest the money in the investigation is based upon the expectation that there will be something interesting there. That decision in no way effects the probability that there is something there. It concerns me that you make these unwarranted connections between things. In Euclidian space parallel lines do not meet: stop trying to make them.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    SEEKER Genesis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    52 degrees North
    Posts
    159
    Well my Dear Stalker may be they just want to waste a lot of money looking for nothing.
    How silly of me a should of known better.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    His simple point is thinking there might be something interesting doesn't mean or affect whether there will be. It's an important distinction because it helps inoculate scientist from seeing things that aren't there or drawing conclusions without sufficient evidence. It helps make science more objective than common experience.
    westwind likes this.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    SEEKER Genesis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    52 degrees North
    Posts
    159
    I am most apologetic He (J.G) is of course correct, my choice of words were poor.
    John Galt likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    The fact they are spending money to investigate the lake affects the probability that they may have in their possession evidence which we may not have, which tells them the money will not be wasted. Remember, with probability it is not necessary for causality to be part of our observation. The decision to investigate does not cause evidence unknown to us to be present. However, it does indicate that it is likely that it is present.

    I'm curious whether life on Europa would have evolved to survive on Sunlight from the Sun, or maybe instead to live off the strong radiation emitted by Jupiter's radiation belt?


    Jupiter
    HectorDecimal likes this.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm curious whether life on Europa would have evolved to survive on Sunlight from the Sun, or maybe instead to live off the strong radiation emitted by Jupiter's radiation belt?


    Jupiter
    Or are simple chemosynthetic autotrophs, requiring no radiation.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Or creatures of pure energy vacationing from the planet PXR7841.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Indiana. Near Indy. On the top of the Eastern "buttcheek."
    Posts
    183
    I don't think the money spent has any bearing on what someone expects. I would tend to think it's another find, like Vostok, thus someone wants to be the first regardless of what is found.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    885
    my wish is that science weren't cost-dependened, so that it wouldn't depend on money to reach its full potential without having to make a choice.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Comet Dust Collector Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    2,848
    Hell, I wish beer wasn't cost dependant, but stuff costs money
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Indiana. Near Indy. On the top of the Eastern "buttcheek."
    Posts
    183
    Quote Originally Posted by curious mind View Post
    my wish is that science weren't cost-dependened, so that it wouldn't depend on money to reach its full potential without having to make a choice.
    It doesn't have to be. I work independent and fund my own research with my other developed skills. Of course I'm not buying an ocean liner or 747 either. I can afford glass ware, magnet wire, computers and every couple years I buy a new lawnmower and I'll have my home paid off next year. Can't complain.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    808
    Of course there's life under the ice on Europa. Why wouldn't there be? Why wouldn't there be life in Vostok? To heckity boo with what the Brits are doing .. they're fifty years behind the Russians.
    Search engines are such useful tools .. I wonder why more people don't use them?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    To heckity boo with what the Brits are doing .. they're fifty years behind the Russians.
    Indeed. I understand the Scots have been a nation of drunken mysogynists for several centuries longer than the Russians.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 16
    Last Post: July 16th, 2011, 10:37 AM
  2. Replies: 17
    Last Post: June 25th, 2010, 07:04 PM
  3. Regelation of ice
    By livephysics in forum Physics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: April 19th, 2010, 06:02 AM
  4. Coldest Ice
    By RJK in forum Chemistry
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: January 11th, 2007, 07:50 AM
  5. de-oxygenating ice
    By pendragon526 in forum Chemistry
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: July 20th, 2006, 10:53 PM
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •